Alex-

That cartoon is very indicative of a lot of companies in action today, in many industries. But not, in my experience the high end audio industry. I know a good number of the people who run or are highly placed in major high end brands. I've ridden in their cars and been to their homes. Most of them live very, very modestly; even the big names. None of them would I consider mega-wealthy. Are you this jaded about everything in life or just the audio business?

Every industry has those things. There are $35,000 sweaters, tons of watches over $85,000, and don't even get me started on wine, or paintings. The extreme of any industry are just that, EXTREME. No one is forcing you to participate in that segment of the market. I, for one am glad that it's there. Is a $25,000 preamp better than a $5,000 unit from the same high quality manufacturer? YES. Can I afford it? No, but I take solace for two reasons. First I may be able to pick one up on the used market in a couple of years. Secondly, the trickle down of technology to other models. For example Kevlar drivers started out in just the very top, top B&W speakers but over time as they perfected their manufacturer (thus reducing per unit costs) and amortized the design costs they are now in nearly everyone of their speakers and their entire product line is better for it. The people who pay $25,000 for their preamplifiers help make the next generation $5,000 preamps that much better for the rest of us. God bless the bleeding edge of the market!

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I think the audio business typifies this kind of thinking, which is prevalent in various industries. I think it's more visible in the audio industry though because it's so small. $100,000 for speakers or $50k for amplifiers or 100k for turntable? Where's the sanity in that? May as well charge $15 for a glass of lemonade.

No one's forcing you to buy $1000.000 speakers, $50K amplifiers or a 100K turntable. But believe me, if I had that kind of money to splurge on the worlds best engineering (not the worlds most expensive and cosmetically overdone junk) I'd be a customer.
There's a sad truth in all this many people want to deny. Take, for instance, the design of LP replay equipment that's going to get the very best out of that medium. There's no way that can be done without very elaborate and expensive design. I wish there was but wishing won't make the laws of physics go away.
None of this however means you can't get a great deal of musical enjoyment out of modest equipment or that you have to fall for over-decorated,overpriced & underperforming junk.

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Are you this jaded about everything in life or just the audio business?

Excellent question that went unanswered.

i think it would be a pretty dull world if there was no high-end exotica out there to dream about. we have seen trickle-down theory in technology since technology was invented (flat screen tvs for example, remember $10,000 plasmas, now much improved for $1500), even though it doesn't work in economics. long live the unobtanium be it stereo gear, cars and especially women.

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i think it would be a pretty dull world if there was no high-end exotica out there to dream about. we have seen trickle-down theory in technology since technology was invented (flat screen tvs for example, remember $10,000 plasmas, now much improved for $1500), even though it doesn't work in economics. long live the unobtanium be it stereo gear, cars and especially women.

yeah, although in my experience, the more a woman costs, the lower the quality. If we seek truth, beauty, and integrity, more money can buy better stereo, but more money is associated with falsity, exaggerated top end, and skankiness in females.

I think you should note that Calvin's lemonade stand went out of business (assuming he didn't get the subsidy).

If the price for a product (calculated by a variety of factors including costs and market demand) is "too high" the company won't sell enough to turn a profit and will go out of business. That is, assuming there aren't any monopolistic or antitrust concerns with necessities - which is certainly not the case with luxury/discretionary goods.

I think "greed" gets a bad rap. Sure, greed has motivated people to make poor/stupid decisions but, properly focused, greed drives innovation and generally makes the world a better place to be. But, in the interest of full disclosure, I like free markets and capitalism (yes, even still). At least in the audio world, no one is obligated to make anything affordable for anyone else. It would be stupid business not to make items affordable for at least a select group of people, but that's all a business decision. If these manufacturers are "too greedy" they won't be around for long.

I love Calvin and Hobbs and that is SO High End Audio...the scary part is I know it and still drink the lemonade. I guess I value the experience and sound more than I morn the loss of the money.

billb: the truth is, i didn't give it that much in depth thought (the women comment). i think i meant unobtanium women like beyonce knowles; uma thurman; and the like, not just some run of the mill pretty woman who likes money, for what it's worth.

No problem. I know what you mean and I wasn't really disputing you, just adding a thought based on my opinions and experience.

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i think it would be a pretty dull world if there was no high-end exotica out there to dream about. we have seen trickle-down theory in technology since technology was invented (flat screen tvs for example, remember $10,000 plasmas, now much improved for $1500), even though it doesn't work in economics. long live the unobtanium be it stereo gear, cars and especially women.

yeah, although in my experience, the more a woman costs, the lower the quality. If we seek truth, beauty, and integrity, more money can buy better stereo, but more money is associated with falsity, exaggerated top end, and skankiness in females.

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is a 20,000 dollar amplifier better than a 5,000 dollar in the same line"? YES

First of all, blanket statements as above are impossible to make...even harder to prove. best to avoid them.

I think that ... lets say... past 5,000 bucks, differences in gear are little to absolutely none. I hope that more people will use tools such as diffmaker or null testing to raise awareness, shed light on this nonsense and run the charlatans out of business. I did own one amp , FM Acoustics that was well north of 5 grand but hell ,was it better than my bryston half its price? from where I sit.. hell no. I was a fool with my money back then.. not only with my money but with what I allowed myself to believe out of the mouths of the audio pimps.

A COMPETENT WELL DESIGNED AMP WILL SOUND THE SAME AS ANY OTHER COMPETENT WELL DESIGNED AMP.

if it sounds different.. it is placebo effect or a damaged product. and no, I am not advocating a damned onkyo or yamaha. 5 grand is my personal cutoff(at least as of late 2006). past that point and we are in the realm of fantasy.

"A COMPETENT WELL DESIGNED AMP WILL SOUND THE SAME AS ANY OTHER COMPETENT WELL DESIGNED AMP. If it sounds different.. it is placebo effect or a damaged product."

Someone's apparently channeling the bald-headed guy from Stereo Review who basically said the same thing, uh, has it really been 30 years ago?

Come on, blaming it all on placebos is the oldest trick in the Skeptics Handbook. Placebos are the last refuge of the Naysayer scoundrel. :-)

gk

Keep in mind ncdrawl used to think cables and better equipment mattered until he found this program that - after you finagle it around a bit - shows you that you really can't hear after all. The machine changed his mind and his life. Now he just complains about parasites and charlatans. What a wonderful machine that must be as long as you pay no attention to the man behind the screen.

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i think it would be a pretty dull world if there was no high-end exotica out there to dream about. we have seen trickle-down theory in technology since technology was invented (flat screen tvs for example, remember $10,000 plasmas, now much improved for $1500), even though it doesn't work in economics. long live the unobtanium be it stereo gear, cars and especially women.

yeah, although in my experience, the more a woman costs, the lower the quality. If we seek truth, beauty, and integrity, more money can buy better stereo, but more money is associated with falsity, exaggerated top end, and skankiness in females.

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is a 20,000 dollar amplifier better than a 5,000 dollar in the same line"? YES

First of all, blanket statements as above are impossible to make...even harder to prove. best to avoid them.

I think that ... lets say... past 5,000 bucks, differences in gear are little to absolutely none. I hope that more people will use tools such as diffmaker or null testing to raise awareness, shed light on this nonsense and run the charlatans out of business. I did own one amp , FM Acoustics that was well north of 5 grand but hell ,was it better than my bryston half its price? from where I sit.. hell no. I was a fool with my money back then.. not only with my money but with what I allowed myself to believe out of the mouths of the audio pimps.

A COMPETENT WELL DESIGNED AMP WILL SOUND THE SAME AS ANY OTHER COMPETENT WELL DESIGNED AMP.

if it sounds different.. it is placebo effect or a damaged product. and no, I am not advocating a damned onkyo or yamaha. 5 grand is my personal cutoff(at least as of late 2006). past that point and we are in the realm of fantasy.

You've edited my text and significantly changed it's meaning, then used the quote feature to attribute the edited text to me. That's just plain dishonest. My ORIGINAL quote was "Is a $25,000 preamp better than a $5,000 unit from the same high quality manufacturer? YES." not "is a 20,000 dollar amplifier better than a 5,000 dollar in the same line"? YES." If you are going to use the quote feature please make sure it is an EXACT an DIRECT quote, otherwise you are being dishonest. The phrase "high quality manufacturer" was integral to the intent of my statement as I do believer that there are SOME companies out there who are getting by through charging outrageous prices to a very small number of fools who think that they've discovered the next big name in high end before everyone else (including the magazines.) We all know the type, the guy who doesn't want to own anything that more than 5 other people own because he want's to feel special.

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I think that ... lets say... past 5,000 bucks, differences in gear are little to absolutely none. I hope that more people will use tools such as diffmaker or null testing to raise awareness, shed light on this nonsense and run the charlatans out of business.

Dude,

We can't run the charlatans at Synergistics Research out of business with their magic tibetan singing bowls, and you want people to actually use null testing products to gauge the difference in amps? Pfffttt... There are more $15 a glass kool-aid drinkers who will vehemently and aggressively defend and justify their $15 a glass kool-aid, claiming that it possesses whatever magical properties then there are rational people engaged in actually wanting to see real progress rather than hokus-pokus.

Furthermore, there's a whole reviewing industry in place to propagate the voodoo magic notion. So, one hand winds up washing the other. The voodoo manufacturers use voodoo reviewers to sell crap and the voodoo reviewers use the voodoo manufacturers to sell their reviews and crap.

It's up to the consumers of high end audio to demand realistic testing, unbiased reviewing and calling bullshit when they see it. Alas, most of the world was dragged kicking and screaming to embrace the notion that the world was round. Besides, there are still those who espouse the virtues of "creationism", so how can you expect anything different in the world of high end audio?

AlexO! You've put your anti-kool-aid partner (ncdrawl) in a difficult spot. He shares your contempt of the singing bowls, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't buy into evolution as the last word in creation theory.

You've got to get your team into a huddle so you don't call different plays. Makes it hard to keep score.

Alex

What harm is it that high end audio exists ?

Nobody is stating that you have to buy it, is the real issue that your own insecurity about the equipment you own is coming out as jealous bigotry ?

I have a Rolex, a very nice watch but nowadays its mainstream there are watches for $100k's. This doesnt make me insecure that the Rolex is s great watch.

I drive a Lexus, am i upset that you can get a $2,000,000 Bugatti ? the Bugatti is cramped and impractical.

I drink $20 wine and love it, do i think its ridiculous that the latest Petrus is $5000 a bottle, of course i do but it doesnt stop me enjoying my $20 cabernet.

I play golf at $30 a round, do i get pissed that its $500 a round at Pebble Beach ? would i enjoy a solo round at Pebble more than a Saturday afternoon 4 some with friends followed by beer ??

Every field in the world has silly priced items for the richest 1 % of the population to whom money does not matter.

Dont ever forget that to 99% of Americans spending $1000 on a turntable is ridiculous, why buy a $500 CD player when Best Buy sells a perfectly good one for $29 ? Why buy seperate pre/power amp ? when a good integrated can be had for $199 ?

Its all relative, just accept that you can only afford a certain level of product and stop hating !!

Alan

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Nobody is stating that you have to buy it, is the real issue that your own insecurity about the equipment you own is coming out as jealous bigotry ?Its all relative, just accept that you can only afford a certain level of product and stop hating !!

Alan

no, actually, I could(after a bit of shuffling funds about and sparring with the wife) afford most of what is out there. it isnt the money, really. Ive just got this thing where I dislike bullshit and hustlers..

as for "hating".. im not really into the whole urban lingo thing, but if you are referring to hatred in the literal sense... no, none here. just one person's opinion. the last time I checked, it was no breach of etiquette to discuss on web boards. As long as there is strength in my body I will continue to voice my opinion.

I drive a 1987 f150, wife drives a newish volvo, but we have an all original parts 1967 shelby 427 cobra in the garage that my grandaddy left us.

I dont drink, but I do have a really nice wine collection from my travels in europe. watch is by timex ironman.

the most expensive stuff I own== antiques from Nazi Germany. One of my neighbors in Heidelberg happened to own an antiques shop there in town, well, he loved American cuts of meat(ribeyes, tbones, etc) , but German butchers did not prepare the meat that way, so every two weeks I would go to the commissary, load up on beef, and walk into his shop, hand him the bags, and he allowed me to pick out any 3 items that I wanted, provided I could carry it out.

needless to say, I got quite a collection. expensive bullshit in every hobby, snake oil is alive and well, but Audio is my passion, so I migrate to audio forums.

"He used to think cables and better equipment mattered until he found this program... now he just complains about parasites and charlatans."

Seems to be a lot of that going around. Deprogramming, anyone?

gk

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"He used to think cables and better equipment mattered until he found this program... now he just complains about parasites and charlatans."

Let's not forget those going around making misrepresentations.

RG

"Let's not forget those going around making misrepresentations."

The only ones I see making misrepresentations are the Naysayers. But you probably had someone else in mind.

AlexO,

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Dude,

We can't run the charlatans at Synergistics Research out of business with their magic tibetan singing bowls,

And another post

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There's no score to keep. There will always be PT Barnum and suckers will be born every day. That's just the way it goes. I miss DUP. He really kept a lid on the singing bowls. You wouldn't hear a peep out of them.

First, not once but twice, you claim Synergistics products are tibetian singing bowls, which they are not. Twisting the facts is not ethical imo.

Secondly, Synergistics bowls were already explained using physics. So although you claim to understand physics, you go against your own beliefs.

So not one shred of evidence/facts presented and misquoting of the product. I guess anything goes when cutting the competition.

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I think that ... lets say... past 5,000 bucks, differences in gear are little to absolutely none.

I'll argue that a lot of expensive stuff is actually very poor. This thread at AudioCircle is a perfect example of someone who spent much more than he had to for a power amp, and what he got was a piece of crap:

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=63593.0

Had he bought a basic pro-grade Crown, he'd own a terrific amp and it would give him a lifetime of trouble-free service.

I also chuckled at the guy referring to the noise as being "digital sounding." Damn digital! Yeah, that's the ticket, blame digital even when it's analog noise due to a lame analog design.

My three personal experiences with really expensive power amplifiers were similar:

1) A guy at a hi-fi show was selling very expensive toob amps. He bragged how the toob lights on his amp are real filament bulbs, not LEDs as his competitors use. He also bragged that his toob amp doesn't use any of that nasty negative feedback stuff. I guess he sees 10 percent distortion as a selling feature.

2) I saw a $17,000 solid state power amp that had just died because it was turned on with nothing plugged into its RCA inputs.

3) I saw a pair of very expensive toob amps at a customer's a few years ago. He told me one of the speaker wires once fell off accidentally, and not having a load blew up the amp. It costs him a fortune to send the amp back to Europe for repair.

In all of these cases, a $400 pro-grade amp from Crown would have not only cost much less, but would have been better audio quality as well as far more reliable.

--Ethan

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blaming it all on placebos is the oldest trick in the Skeptics Handbook.

So prove it's not a placebo by submitting to a DBT! Oh wait, I bet you don't "believe in" DBT.

--Ethan

____________________
Bring back DUP

DBTs are for sissies.

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DBTs are for sissies.

There's no doubt you (Mr. Kait) live in the placebo world and benefit greatly from it. Classy answer BTW.

"There's no doubt you (Mr. Kait) live in the placebo world and benefit greatly from it. Classy answer BTW."

Not even a little doubt? Gosh, I hardly know what to say. "Ouch" will have to suffice for now.

It must be because im British and have a different mindset to Americans.

Over priced over hyped crap exists in every marketplace in the world, you should appreciate it and encourage it.

If audio companies can make fantastic margins from rich people this allows them to spend that money to develop higher volume products at normal margins.

Alan

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AlexO! You've put your anti-kool-aid partner (ncdrawl) in a difficult spot. He shares your contempt of the singing bowls, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't buy into evolution as the last word in creation theory.

What makes you say that? Do you know the guy personally? Besides, I said it to illustrate a point.

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I recall a discussion on a different thread. Objectivists sometimes part ways with their audio friends on politics and religion- that's okay, but you inadvertantly insulted nc with the evolution remark.

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...If audio companies can make fantastic margins from rich people this allows them to spend that money to develop higher volume products at normal margins.

But they don't do this. This is just more wishful thinking. But I'm always ready to learn: please give us some current, 2008/09, examples of the trickle-down effect in audio manufacturing.

Zane

Its not about the technology, its about the money.

Audio companies like every other type exist to make money, in any business you have high margin lines and low margin lines. You really think a company like Nordost could exist selling the product like Monster ? they have to get ridiculous margins to cover the costs. They $30K speaker cables they sell might well only cost $200 to make but everything else that goes with selling the product reduces the margins.

Nobody is in any way arguing that Nordost cables are intriniscally worth $30k, the same way that any ultra premium product in any market is worth the price at a physical level.

The point i repeatedly make but nobody seems to want to acknowledge is that the people who buy stuff like $30k speakers cables can afford them as easily as i can afford a $50 speaker cable.

The ultra high end has a trickle down for the whole industry which is good.

The current rash of good value products that have cropped up online, Axiom, Emotiva, SVSound, Aperion just to name a few. They are cheap because the do not advertise, they do not work with the industry, they do not have dealers that require a mark up to have a bricks and mortar store to demo equipment. You think magazines like Stereophile would exist if we all ignored high end audio ? hifi magazines exist primarily because of advertising.

This goes back to an argument from Alex that you should be able to spend 5 hours at a hifi store and then go home and shop online for the cheapest price. High end is good for everyone.

Bring on more $100K turntables, $10k a ft speaker cables, $250k monoblocks and $200 k speakers !! all wired with $30k interconnects, on $50K solid gold isolation blocks.
Alan

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I'll argue that a lot of expensive stuff is actually very poor. This thread at AudioCircle is a perfect example of someone who spent much more than he had to for a power amp, and what he got was a piece of crap:

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=63593.0

Yup!

Back in 1984 when I was young and stupid, I bought a Krell KSA-100 for $3000. It had buzzing relays. They sent me replacements for those, but they buzzed too - just not as bad as the originals. About a year and a half later, the power switch (actually a breaker) went out. They sent me a new one of those too. Now, this amp had such a large inrush current that the lights in my apartment would dim when I turned it on. When replacing the on/off breaker, I found that it used cheap and flimsy push-on connectors in this spot to handle this large current. Unreal.

Then, around 2000, somebody posted the KSA-100 schematic at diyaudio.com. What a primitive piece of junk.

And also back in 1984, I bought a pair of Magnepan MG-III for $2000. Upon reading the manual, I found that the ribbon tweeters needed to be sent back to Magnepan for repair once a year (more frequently if they are routinely played loud). The manual says "It's the price we pay for the best possible sound reproduction". LOL! It's the price "we" pay for incompetent engineering. After a few years, the speakers developed gross distortion from the midrange and woofer "voice coil" becoming delaminated from the mylar diaphragm.

In 2008, I bought a pair of passive JBL pro monitors, the LSR6332. Got 'em for $1200 each online. These things amaze me. Sound quality is extremely good on a wide variety of recordings. And the dynamics - holy cow! I can crank them up to SPLs that would have the cops at my door without straining them at all. There are some recordings I thought were defective because they had a strange resonance effect on the Maggies. Turned out (surprise surprise!) to be a problem with the Maggies, not the recording.

Lessons learned:
1) Competent engineering trumps all.
2) In "high-end" audio, there's a shortage of competent engineering. Caveat emptor.

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Nobody is in any way arguing that Nordost cables are intriniscally worth $30k

Well, I'm sure Nordost argues that. And so do their dealers. And so does every gullible magazine reviewer who says he hears even the smallest improvement. And so does every sucker who actually spent that much and has to justify the cost (waste) to himself and his friends.

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the people who buy stuff like $30k speakers cables can afford them as easily as i can afford a $50 speaker cable.

Perhaps, but at lower price points, though still just as ridiculous, many people spend more than their income level should dictate because they are bamboozled. One of my customers told me he came very close to spending $5,000 on a subwoofer cable at a friend's urging. He told me it would have been a major expense for him, but he was desperate to overcome the terrible bass in his room.

--Ethan

Great post Andy. To your "Lessons learned" you can add:

3) Gear sold to the pro audio market is usually a better value (and better quality) than gear targeted to audiophiles.

--Ethan

Well, like I said, pleaase post some real-world current examples of trickle-down. At this point I suspect there are none, but my eagerness to learn keeps me in anticipation of new information.

I have not followed the entire thread so may be speaking off topic a bit, but I believe PS Audio's new front end, a combination of transport and computer, is a direct trickle down from the expensive and quirky server based systems we have been reading about for the last few years. They take existing transport technology and add a memory/buffer in a way that the company itself thought of and did it for a price folk can actually afford, at least then they are available used. This might (as opposed to complicated and expensive server systems) be the wave of the future.

I cannot wait to read a few reviews of that thing.

I would refer to my previous example of the B&W Kevlar drivers, though you might not consider that "current." But many times the trickle down is hard to see because it's in a circuit topography from the flagship implemented in a product lower in the line with a little less expensive hardware (resisters, capacitor, etc.)

The "S" part of B&W's current 800 line takes crossover and tweeter technology from their previous "Signature" line. A pair of 805S speakers are every bit as good sounding as the Signature 805 was for a lot less money.

SOTA products are meant to push the envelope of technology. Even if not a single item is sold from a SOTA design the trickle down effects run through all of audio. You cannot have a more transparent speaker until you have a more transparent amplifier. The front end must exceed the limits of the system before the system can be improved. This is basic system building that anyone should understand.

One of the most obvious benefits of SOTA is the increase in transparency provided by statement designs. Think of the number of times you have read a product review which stated the reviewer didn't know they were hearing a certain distortion, noise, resonance, etc. until it was removed. Once the transparency has been increased in one product, the rest of the line and that of competitors must step up one more notch. How else do you suppose audio products have improved over time?

Go back into past issues of Stereophile to read about the evolution of the CJ pre amps for a good example of trickle down transparency that doesn't simply move one technology down to a lower price range. The successive efforts bring as much of the SOTA sound down to a more affordable price throughout the line.

Of course, none of this applies to anyone who thinks any product more expensive than what they own is a waste of money. You folks can go on bitchin' and moanin' about something you'll never hear just 'cause you can't. Bitchin' and moanin' gives you something to fill the time.

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Nobody is stating that you have to buy it, is the real issue that your own insecurity about the equipment you own is coming out as jealous bigotry ?Its all relative, just accept that you can only afford a certain level of product and stop hating !!

Alan

no, actually, I could(after a bit of shuffling funds about and sparring with the wife) afford most of what is out there. it isnt the money, really. Ive just got this thing where I dislike bullshit and hustlers..

as for "hating".. im not really into the whole urban lingo thing, but if you are referring to hatred in the literal sense... no, none here. just one person's opinion. the last time I checked, it was no breach of etiquette to discuss on web boards. As long as there is strength in my body I will continue to voice my opinion.

I drive a 1987 f150, wife drives a newish volvo, but we have an all original parts 1967 shelby 427 cobra in the garage that my grandaddy left us.

I dont drink, but I do have a really nice wine collection from my travels in europe. watch is by timex ironman.

the most expensive stuff I own== antiques from Nazi Germany. One of my neighbors in Heidelberg happened to own an antiques shop there in town, well, he loved American cuts of meat(ribeyes, tbones, etc) , but German butchers did not prepare the meat that way, so every two weeks I would go to the commissary, load up on beef, and walk into his shop, hand him the bags, and he allowed me to pick out any 3 items that I wanted, provided I could carry it out.

needless to say, I got quite a collection. expensive bullshit in every hobby, snake oil is alive and well, but Audio is my passion, so I migrate to audio forums.

You should be putting snake oil in the Cobra!! You have, arguably, the most iconic, brutally fast roadster ever produced by an American manufacturer and your only passion is audio? I just don't get you, dude.

BTW, even tho' it's worth around $750K, I hope you take it out and whomp on it once in a while- the Cobra, that is.

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You should be putting snake oil in the Cobra!! You have, arguably, the most iconic, brutally fast roadster ever produced by an American manufacturer and your only passion is audio? I just don't get you, dude.

like I said, my grandaddy left it to us, along with a Massey Furgeson tractor and an old Farm-All Cub tractor.

I do have other interests, such as farming, UFC, and bodybuilding, but I dont see myself discussing any of those online, at least not here. Audio/Music has been so much a part of my life that it will always hold first chair, anyway.. but yes, I dabble in various hobbies. (well, farming is a way of life too, since I grew up on one and now maintain my grandaddy's property (tobacco, cotton, soybeans, collards and the home garden)

I do love cars too, and am pretty adept with the lower level repairs and maintenance, but I do not have time to indulge in that side of things as much as id like. No need to touch the Cobra anyway. Cant improve perfection.