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Jim Tavegia
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Hardly obsolete

I have many people who know I still play much vinyl ask where can they get turntables these days. They are not audiophiles, but have record collections they have gotten from friends, or from relatives. They are amazed that vinyl is still alive and growing. It is just not growing at Best Buy.

To get the most from vinyl you must ante-up $$$ to achieve great results. Often, to me, a $500-$1K cd player sounds better than a like amount of tt. With a good table, cartridge, and phono stage LP's are still very magical, but it takes more work that just opening a drawer and hitting PLAY. Not many can go to Simon Yorke land like MF, but I do enjoy my Rega P3 in my main system.

I just bought a used Project One/DR220 table (mint condition) from an estate sale for $50 and I had an old Stanton 881S in a drawer. It has become part of my vintage '70's system in my office of a Hafler amp, Hafler DH101 with 2, yes two, phono inputs, and my trusty 25+ year old 12" 3-way AR 58's (woofers refoamed). I also use an old NAD cassette deck as well as a Sony DAT. I occasionally use it for a back-up recording source for location recording I do for clients.

I am using this to remind me of why I got into this hobby in the first place and that, yes, even this old gear sounds very, very good. I have many friends who admit their current systems do not sound as good as this vintage gear.

The Hafler DH101 phono stages are not class A "Phile", but my biggest problem is that the playback quality of vinyl pressings is all over the place from bad to very good like from Telarc and others. Many times it is not a poor pressing, but a great performance that keeps us hooked. Other times the recording and pressing is so well done that the sonics alone have us into the performace.

I still believe that SACD offers the greatest sonic benefits if done right and played through something other than an entry level DVD player. Even I could win a DBT between cd and SACD. I eargerly await JA's first SACD release.

fazeralarde
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Re: Hardly obsolete

I still believe that SACD offers the greatest sonic benefits if done right and played through something other than an entry level DVD player. Even I could win a DBT between cd and SACD. I eargerly await JA's first SACD release.

Quote:

I don't think SACD even played in a ESOTERIC DV-50 universal player will stand a chance vs a properly set up vinyl rig of the same cost. The SACD delivers the music as if it has been shattered and then reglued to finally reach the listener.
It lacks the homogenity needed to get the listener involved into music, especially in SACD reissued music from analog master tapes.

Mono
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Re: Hardly obsolete

I had great hope for DSD, but it didn't live up to it's hype. So I'll continue buying up all the lovely vinyl that others couldn't wait to be rid of for pennies on the dollar, and then, occasionally a new release here or there.

marcelo
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Re: Hardly obsolete

There are pops, clicks and hiss that some people considers unacceptable in today's high end world. Even acknowledging the sound is more natural, I have friends that won't go vinyl. Their loss...

I honestly prefer surface noise (to a point) with its magic "distortion" than a noiseless CD ready for boomboxes.

However, it all comes down to, IMHO, the mastering and remixing processing.
The media as such (now talking red book CD) is not at fault, and the proof lies when transferring to digital an LP.

Once transferred to red book CD, there's noone I know able to hear any differences in between the original LP and its CD copy.

Therefore, it is probably adventurous to say that the sound coming from a digital source is flawed just because it is digital.

brgds, marcelo

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hardly obsolete

I have many RCA Red Seal LP's that have been transferred to SACD in the original 3-channel format and the SACD's win hands down over the LP. It truly gives one the chance to hear how great analogue tape was even back in 1960. It is unfortunate you cannot appreciate what the potential for SACD is. The audio quality of LP's of all over the place from barely listenable to excellent from the likes of Telarc and others.

I just bought Van Cliburn's RCA "Rach" in SACD and for a decades old recording it is very, very well preserved. If others think that I have hearing deficiencies it carries no weight with me. I trust my ears. They have generally not let me down. When JA's first SACD release come out soon you should hear some excellent audio recorded state of the art.

I just had a client(s) whom I did some recording for and the leader was a micro-manager par excellance. Every track he wanted more of this, less of that, so for the first time I let the client do what they wanted, listened to each track and had him sign-off as "the Keeper".

A week later I saw one of the participants who said they were dissappointed and I reminded them WHO did the choosing. I told them I would re-do the session for free, but that Mr. Micro-Manager would have to keep his mouth SHUT and I would decide what tracks were keepers. The truth is that two of the singers sound like crap and would be jokes the first week of American Idol. They had no business making a CD in the first place...it was awful. They admitted it was the first time they had made a recording and it was probably the first time any of them actually heard themselves. My fees are so cheap that all it takes is a modest about of cash and no talent. They sing for the right reasons, but mostly in church on Sunday nights where the level of musical tolerance runs very, very high. I've never heard any booing at a church. I certainly have elsewhere.

I have totally given up on the theory that anyone can know what good sound is.

marcelo
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Re: Hardly obsolete

>I have many RCA Red Seal LP's that have been transferred to SACD in the original 3-channel format and the SACD's win hands down over the LP. It truly gives one the chance to hear how great analogue tape was even back in 1960. It is unfortunate you cannot appreciate what the potential for SACD is. The audio quality of LP's of all over the place from barely listenable to excellent from the likes of Telarc and others.

Jim, I think I'm missing something here. Would you mind to explain how you can read 3 channels from a 2 ch format please?

Also, regardless of 3 or 2 ch, how a copy can get any better than its original? How can you enhance the sound if only transferring from one format to the other? I'd agree if you use the original master tapes, but a record?
brgds, marcelo

fazeralarde
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Re: Hardly obsolete

SACD was released from the record companies just for maximizing their bank accounts, by selling us again the same things we have in vinyl or in CD format and to stop losing money from illegal CD copies.

SACD:"cr

fazeralarde
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Re: Hardly obsolete


Quote:
>
Also, regardless of 3 or 2 ch, how a copy can get any better than its original? How can you enhance the sound if only transferring from one format to the other? I'd agree if you use the original master tapes, but a record?
brgds, marcelo

That

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hardly obsolete

It was not originally a 2 channel format, but many RedSeal releases were original 3 channel master tapes. That is why some of them are multi-channel SACD's, but only the front three channels. The engineering quality of these recordings is excellent.

As for the sound quality of the original, unless you get a copy of the master tape everything after is purely a function of the tranferring engineer caring about the sound quality, not just putting the same thing out for marketing purposes on a new format.

Much care as been taken with the transfers from these original 3 channel RedSeal master tapes. The original sound of these 30+year old recordings is truly state of the art.

I can see the potential of using SACD not only for sales purposes on 2ch and mch releases, but also as the reference master recording format. How can archiving at the highest resolution level available be a bad thing. If your master at 24/192 that would be great as well.

When record companies start releasing cds in MP3 or some other lossy format then I will start to worry. Considering the rampant downloading I would not be surprised to see this happen.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hardly obsolete

I have no doubt that MF's Somon Yorke rig through the Manley Steel head is remarkable. My only comparisons is that dollar for dollar I do believe that most $1K CD players will trump a $1k TT rig, ie Rega 3 that only leaves you about $400 for a phono stage and cartridge.

I will tell you that I have had many TT's in my home in my 58 years and I have enjoyed the MMF5,7,9, and the Thorens 850, my current is a Rega P3. If you can pair these with at a minumum a Monolithic Sound Phono Stage and, what, Clear Audio Arum Beta S or a Sumiiko BlackBird or Grado Sonata at the $500 price point viny is pretty good. We are pushing the price to $1500 to $2K and an equivilent CD player is pretty remarkable at this price point.

I have a Jolida JD 100 that you would have to pry out of my dead hands for its street price of under $900. I have had $2K to $2.5K models that did not best it but sounded remarakbly close.

I have no doubt that the Simon Yorke is worth every penny of it's price, but now the associated cart and preamp must be equal to the task. I would love to own an SME 10 one day with at least an Acoustech Phono state. To buy one without a matching quality phono preamp and cartridge would be a foolish, but a great looking, investment.

This shattering of sound has not ben my SACD experience even through a modest player. There are times when a CD copy of the same performance through my Jolida best the SACD performance doing my best AB comparisons in my listening room.

I do not care which format wins. I only want to experience the best sound and care less about the delivery system. I truly enjoy every moment of playing vinyl. Until they pass a law mandating that I pick only only one format to listen to I will try to enjoy them all. If I had $30K to blow I would certainly listen to the DCS stack with a totally open mind. I would never spend this kind of money on a TT rig. $10K, maybe. Then I could buy the $13K DCS cd player and really have some fun with money left over to buy more software.

marcelo
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Re: Hardly obsolete


Quote:
I have no doubt that MF's Somon Yorke rig through the Manley Steel head is remarkable. My only comparisons is that dollar for dollar I do believe that most $1K CD players will trump a $1k TT rig, ie Rega 3 that only leaves you about $400 for a phono stage and cartridge.

>True, however, I have tested cheaper TT's setups against YBAs CDPs (2 of them) and his owner chose 10/10 his own TT against his own 2 pricey YBAs. And, the total cost was less than 1k$. However, I understand what you say and basically agree.<

I will tell you that I have had many TT's in my home in my 58 years and I have enjoyed the MMF5,7,9, and the Thorens 850, my current is a Rega P3. If you can pair these with at a minumum a Monolithic Sound Phono Stage and, what, Clear Audio Arum Beta S or a Sumiiko BlackBird or Grado Sonata at the $500 price point viny is pretty good. We are pushing the price to $1500 to $2K and an equivilent CD player is pretty remarkable at this price point.

>Exactly, you don't need a DCS price level turned TT to have great vinyl sound. And I doubt the exponential price increase of a "reference" CDP (Wadia, DCS, Linn, 47Labs,etc) will change so much the sound as a "reference priced" cart will. <

I have a Jolida JD 100 that you would have to pry out of my dead hands for its street price of under $900. I have had $2K to $2.5K models that did not best it but sounded remarakbly close.

>No doubt, there are tremendous value per dollar hifi gear that we know little about, specially because it is not as pricey and maybe as glamourous as other brands<

I have no doubt that the Simon Yorke is worth every penny of it's price, but now the associated cart and preamp must be equal to the task. I would love to own an SME 10 one day with at least an Acoustech Phono state. To buy one without a matching quality phono preamp and cartridge would be a foolish, but a great looking, investment.

>Also true. However, many of us must start somewhere without all the cash available at once, and if the goal is to get a "reference" setup, then step by step might be the only way to get there.
Takes longer, but avoids people ending up with great TTs associated to not so great arms or carts.
I fear the answers sometimes given on forumses, based on "what's your budget"? Many end up spending twice because the first choice left him with a basic tt and a very basic arm and even basier cart...with the obvious result.

This shattering of sound has not ben my SACD experience even through a modest player. There are times when a CD copy of the same performance through my Jolida best the SACD performance doing my best AB comparisons in my listening room.

Yes, because if the mastering was poor, no matter the media, it will sound awful, and if yuor CD copy is better mastered than the SACD, no wonder it sounded better to you<

I do not care which format wins. I only want to experience the best sound and care less about the delivery system. I truly enjoy every moment of playing vinyl. Until they pass a law mandating that I pick only only one format to listen to I will try to enjoy them all. If I had $30K to blow I would certainly listen to the DCS stack with a totally open mind. I would never spend this kind of money on a TT rig. $10K, maybe. Then I could buy the $13K DCS cd player and really have some fun with money left over to buy more software.

>I don't care either, I'm perfectly happy with red book CD (while SACD never really atracted me) and vinyl.
Enjoying both. As far as investing money, neither I would spend 30k on a TT set up (I have spent now abt 15k and it's well beyond reason), I'd probably use it on a pair of HE speakers, just for the sake and fun of having low efficiency and high efficiency setups.
brgds, marcelo<

hi

marcelo
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Re: Hardly obsolete


Quote:
It was not originally a 2 channel format, but many RedSeal releases were original 3 channel master tapes. That is why some of them are multi-channel SACD's, but only the front three channels. The engineering quality of these recordings is excellent.

As for the sound quality of the original, unless you get a copy of the master tape everything after is purely a function of the tranferring engineer caring about the sound quality, not just putting the same thing out for marketing purposes on a new format.

Much care as been taken with the transfers from these original 3 channel RedSeal master tapes. The original sound of these 30+year old recordings is truly state of the art.

I can see the potential of using SACD not only for sales purposes on 2ch and mch releases, but also as the reference master recording format. How can archiving at the highest resolution level available be a bad thing. If your master at 24/192 that would be great as well.

When record companies start releasing cds in MP3 or some other lossy format then I will start to worry. Considering the rampant downloading I would not be surprised to see this happen.

Jim, you are referring to master tapes, but no to vinyl. And yes, I agree that you can transfer master tapes and keep all the advantages of the original 3ch format only on SACD. But this is not the point.

We are talking vinyl transferring, and these are not 3ch, these are only 2 ch.

Now, as far as being in the hands of mastering engineers, this is the main object of critic made to the CD format. Why is it so, that a decent TT setup can sound so much better, playing a recording from the '50s, than a CD issued 20 years later (minimum) and with digital technology? Why the difference in between LP and CD if we cannot blame the media because at home we can record the lP onto a CD and keep all the good sound from the analog rig? Are the ME only to blame or is it that some marketing ppl is hiding behind the mastering chair ?
brgds marcelo

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hardly obsolete

<We are talking vinyl transferring, and these are not 3ch, these are only 2 ch.>

That is the format problem (1 or 2 ch) of the LP system and if the SACD format allows me to hear what the original engineers heard and recorded (3 channels) that is what I would prefer. I can also listen in SACD 2-channel format if I choose. I have found that the quality of vinyl pressings to more variable in quality than CDs. They are both all over the place in quality I would admit. Again, if no one cares during the mastering and transfer none of us can win.

The stereo LP is an engineering marvel, but there are engineering compromises that have been made, often to the detriment of the sound and trying to retain all the low end in the trasfer is more diffucult, not impossible, just more difficult. The fact that the 2 channel LP forces us to hear less than the original is worth noting, but it may not matter to some. If the lp format hinders some engineers that is a problem for us consumers. It would have been nice if over the years everyone comitted to 180 gram virgin vinyl, but this was a business decision. Many early Telarc discs were pressed in virgin vinyl, but not usually 180 gram. I have some discs from "Unbrella" that were also virgin vinyl. It is this care in this thriving indie LP market that is exciting. Even at their higher prices the sound in magical. Those of us who owned some of the Sheffield Labs Direct to Disc LP could hear what the LP format COULD be.

< Why the difference in between LP and CD if we cannot blame the media because at home we can record the lP onto a CD and keep all the good sound from the analog rig?>

You must have a great ADC in your computer for you to "capture it all" from an LP transfer. Now we get into the "sound" of the phono preamp and cartridge that does color the sound the same as differing DACs and outputs of CD players. With the sound quality of vinyl all over the place now YOU can "master" each LP transfer to your liking...a good thing.

<Why the difference in between LP and CD if we cannot blame the media because at home we can record the lP onto a CD and keep all the good sound from the analog rig?>

I can tell you first hand that the like RedSeal LP's that I own and compare to newly remastered SACD are not as good. They are good and enjoyable, but to paraphrase MF "there is more there-there", the black backgrounds and the sense of depth and air in unmistakable. I would admit they are very close. You do not have to listen hard to notice the obvious. Speed stability and pitch is also noticiable. Even my $2K tt rig will not do it. Maybe a $10K rig? I would love to hear MF comment on this issue with comparisons through his Simon Yorke system and I believe his Musical Fidelity SACD player I believe he also has in his system.

I do not believe my system can do vinyl total justice. I am only making sonic comparisons to what I own as my Rega 3 TT rig is not bettering the CD/SACD experience and the digital is 1/2 the price. This not a slam at Rega for sure as I think the Rega's are great at each of their price points. This is the equivilent of owning a old Chevy Nova and putting a "396" in it. This hobby is about hot rodding. I believe Rega, Music Hall, Thorens in the 800 series gives us a great place to start, just as Project, ClearAudio, VPI, Mitchell, Avid and others. It is truly amazing how many great tts are available in a "dead" format. LOL. If it WAS dead it is now Frankenstein's Monster. It IS alive and well.

EdAInWestOC
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Re: Hardly obsolete

All the debate about whether a TT is obsolete or not runs around the issue at hand and that is how to get as much of the recorded performance from the original master tape onto some sort of mass-marketable media that will remain faithful to the original.

Digitizing an analog signal would seem to have its benefits but it runs afoul of the KISS principle. The less processing the signal goes through, the better the resulting performance would be...in theory.

Analog has its problems, but it is mature and those problems can be accounted for and compensated for. Cost comparisons between analog and digital are somewhat pointless since we can find gear in either camp that evens the opposing argument.

Hi-rez digital has not found wide spread acceptance and that is a shame. Inability to sell any of the hi-rez formats will eventually spell their doom. In the end we will be left with 16/44.1 PCM that strains to reproduce a faithful waveform. Higher fidelity is not as important to the masses as the convienience and the relative low cost afforded by the old CD.

Something tells me those of us that care about decent sound will be relegated to turntables and LPs for some time to come. I love my LPs but I am not blind to the limitations. Someone has to invent a newer solution that is cheap and convienient and has something to offer over standard CDs for all of us.

Ed

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hardly obsolete

It is a shame that most are opting for nothing or MP3 downloads. For them is it convenience times 10 over any high-rez format. The question becomes that if computing had evolved faster would we even have CDs at all?

We would have had the Recording Industry going crazy decades earlier. None of the 10s of thousands of CD player would have been sold. It would also seem unlikely that the debate of high-rez formats might never have taken place possibly, and whether 24 bit converters would even exist.

We have all these great engineers recording more of what performers offer only to have it bit compressed so it will download faster and take up less space so we can carry thousands of songs in our pocket.

There never will be SACD Walkmans, but a world full of MP3 players. And now the IPod Mini. It is almost small enough to be able to be plugged into one of the ear pieces "Ports" of my Grados and have no chord dangling about. Can the IPod headphones be far behind.

EdAInWestOC
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Re: Hardly obsolete

Jim,
IMO MP3's are not an acceptable format. You could brand me somewhat guilty since I have some of my favorite music on my laptop as MP3s, but that is strictly for travelling and I find those barely acceptable for background listening.

IMO its about opportunity. In my day (and I assume its the same story for you) there were cheap fold down/out record players and, at the other end of the spectrum, the range of gear available at your local hi-fi shop. It was natural to aspire to be an audiophile. Marketing of the new gear made it "hip to be cool" and regularly featured attractive women. Advancements in gear and recording techniques showcased the industry's ability and it was a natural love at first sight...if you cared at all. The golden age of the audiophile.

Roll the clock forward and we had the "Perfect Sound" CD. Except for the fact that that claim was anything but true. The CD was convienient, relatively inexpensive and most players reproduced them in a similiar manner. Modern day aspiring audiophiles were absolutely convinced that Shangri-La had been found. Great sound coupled with convienience and ease of use. Its little wonder why the LP was to suffer a decline.

The pendulum swings and many of those who never had the opportunity are discovering LPs and many former CD audiophiles are strongly touting the hi-rez formats. I don't think it takes a lot of imagination to notice there is a message from those who seek these solutions. The convienience factor has always been a secondary consideration with us, so it will probably end up meaning little but there are younger people who are seeking better sound. Maybe its just the next generation of audiophiles benefiting from what noise we're making.

I'm glad that this new generation is strongly questioning their predecessors. It healthy and might have some impact on the market. If the best of all things comes to past we will have another surge in audiophiles and quality sound will mean something again. Its about time.

Ed

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hardly obsolete

The marketing implications are that I am surprised that there is ample high-end audio clientel. Even though we 1%rs exist and the market is thriving is remarkable. The fact that many have $5k-$10K plasmas but do not having a matching quality audio system to go with it is remarkable.

My IPod has allowed me to carry my wav files with me in a much more convenient way than ever thought possible and it is a remarkable product. I have no problem with people listening on what ever format they like...he who pays decides. It is the convenience of downloading over hard copy that IS becoming an issue, an issue of convenience which again, is fine. It may cause those of us who want hi-rez to end up paying more as the "hard copy" market gets smaller. The RIAA fought the wrong fight and should have answered the download bell first. It was their missed opportunity to control THEIR software. Their opportunity has been coming in court with great expense and angst for all.

To watch DVD's in your laptop is equally impressive and we now can have all our audio and video on the fly in any format hi-rez or not, at will. My father or grandfather would have never thought this would be possible. Or suviving cancer or by-pass surgery. My father died of the complications of polio at an early age when I was only 7 in 1955. There was no vaccine.

To take the high road these days takes a little green to bring the magic fully home. Some choose to spend money in other areas of life and live comfortably in MP3 land. It does not really upset me anymore.

I was just using a trial version of some new computer recording software from a company I had never heard of called nch.com.au off a link from another web site. This $50 download allows differing bit rate files up to 96KHZ which my basic verion Sony Sound Forge @ $89 does not. It also has truncation software allowing me to record at 88.2 or 96khz, listen, truncate to CD RedBook and compare file quality. I have been using my Echo Indigo I/O 24/96 card favorably reviewed by JA in my Dell Laptop. To me 88.2 and 96 is very smooth and their truncation allgorithm seems good to me so recording on location at 88.2, mastering and then converting to redbook for all of $50 is very nice. It even offers ripping and cd burning in the download package. This seems like a great value to me as an amature recordist and former broadcast engineer. I am spending more time these days learning what it take to capture great sound which is helping me appreciate the end product more.

I also transferred these hi-rez files to mini-disc for comparison purposes of a compressed format. Minidisc might be an acceptable "portable" format in it's day, the loss of air, detail, and 3D is too much for me. The IPod/wav/aiff files are the ticket for portability. Check it out. A trial version is avaialable. If you are transfering lps to your computer this inexpensive software might just be your ticket.

Daveherm
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Re: Hardly obsolete

Analog may not be obsolete but I suspect if audio retailers had there way it would be.I recently decided to get a pre-amp. I did my research and decided on a Blue Circle 21.1.
The dealer was excellent, answered all questions he even helped me overcome my tube phobia.Then I asked about phono stages and he got real quiet and after the uncomfortable silence admitted he knew squat about phono pre-amps and analog in general.Turns out he wasn't alone.
In the weeks that followed I researched all kinds of phono pre-amps and not a single dealer could tell me how their phono stage would sound with my gear or if it even had enough gain.
I am not new to this hobby but neither am I an expert.When the "pros" can't help where do you turn. If I didn't have so much vinyl I would have called it quits and played another CD.
For the record I have a Linn Troika and am still searching for a phono stage.The Trichord Dino looks promising but again i'm on my own and if I buy i'm stuck with it for better or worse.
If analog isn't obsolete then lets have those that care help each other to see that it survives.Mikey Fremer can't do it all.

Geoff P
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Re: Hardly obsolete

Just joined in so apologies if I go over old ground. here are a few comments about my personal experience.
I guess I am a HiFi nut and as an englishman have gone down the NAIM route. Over here the debate rages about CD and Vinyl and centers down on the famous LP12 TT as the great god of vinyl. Myself I have a Michell Gyrodec and have experimented with about 4 different cartridges and a couple of arms, plus a couple of different phono stages. I love Vinyl when it is pure analog all the way from master tapes thru' cutting and mastering. The stuff that's done like that, which is "old" or specialist reissue, has no peer IMO. If you have ever heard a direct cut LP played on a decent TT it is moment to savor.
Recently the last company to make Tape for Reel to Reel machines went out of business. Mastering now is Digital period. When this is converted to analog for LP it is "too late", something is gone. It doesn't matter how high your bit rate or sample frequency the "flow" that is so beguling about good vinyl replay is somehow diluted. Add to that the compression that is popular among recording engineers to make it sound good through a walkman or as MP3 etc and you are on the slippery slope.
I have and do keep revisiting stereo replay of SACD and DVD-A. 196/24 stereo off DVD-A can be quite good (Steely Dan has been carefull how their stuff is mastered and it shows) but there are occasional chances to do direct comparisons. An example that has been interesting for me has been the SACD re-issue of "Brothers in Arms". I bought that to add to my CD copy and my original LP from when it first came out. I have to say that to my ears the LP replay slaughters both the CD and the SACD on that one.
Trouble is it is not always so.
Vinyl can be breathtaking when it all comes together
SACD & DVD-A are extremely variable and terrible in the wrong hands
CD is consistently "OK to good" and it is a lot nicer to fall asleep to than an LP which forces you to get up and lift the needle.

regards
GEOFF

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Re: Hardly obsolete

Something that never ceases to amaze me is the fact that with vinyl, there's information in some of those old LP's that nobody could hear back in the day!

It boggles my mind to think I can put on a good jazz or classical disc from the golden age and catch detail that was beyond the retrieval limit when it was recorded, engineered, pressed, etc...

I try to imagine modern engineers caring as much as their forebears, who obviously tried to get things right, with many never having known just how much detail was really hidden in those tiny black canyons.

Do you think Miles ever heard all the info that he had actually laid down in those grooves? Could Roger waters hear everything we now get out of a Mo Fi DSOM disc?

It makes me wonder what the Hell else may be waiting in those vinyl spirals to spring forward someday!

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