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jazzfan
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Global Warming and the Netherlands

As many of you regular forum members might know my wife and I lived in the Netherlands from August 2007 to October 2008. In the Netherlands, a very beautiful country filled with plenty of warm and friendly people, the issue of global warming is not open to discussion since with 60% of the population already living below sea level, they really can't afford a "wait and see" attitude.

Maybe global warming is only part of a normal planetary cycle and not caused by mankind's environmental abuses (sorry but regardless of one's place on the partisan fence, there are plenty of environmental abuses occurring around the world everyday) but I don't care, I like and honor the Dutch and therefore feel that issue of global warming needs to be addressed now and tackled head on.

An audio aside:

During my stay in the Netherlands I managed to attend a headphone meet sponsored by a Dutch audio dealer and run by the Netherlands chapter of HeadFi.org. The meet was held in the back room of the dealer's store and during the meet we got to check out the store. Because of the fact that just about everyone in the Netherlands lives in either an apartment or some type of attached home, i.e. townhouse, the speakers tend to be either bookshelf/monitor models or smallish (by US standards) floor standing models (by way of comparison my Vandersteen Model 3As were as big, if not bigger, than the largest speaker on display in the store). This is not to say that these speakers didn't sound good and besides which the electronics were of very high caliber. In addition, I finally got a chance to listen to a pair of Ultrasone Edition 9 headphones ($1500), which aside from the $3000+ Sony Qualia headphones I only heard one time, were about the best 'phones I have ever heard.

linden518
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands

Thanks for the post, jazzfan. Oddly enough, I went to a pre-Thanksgiving Thanksgiving dinner up at Harlem last night, a huge Puerto Rican feast. There, I met this Dutch guy, who was dating one of the cousins of my friend. We were talking about the miserable fate of Dutch soccer teams, the beautiful art there, when he suddenly mentioned that for the first time in history, there are tornados in Netherland now! He was describing them, how they intensify each year, conveying his dismay and shock. So the consequences of global warming are definitely real, and not some current pop trend or fad, as some maintain. It's easy enough to see in our country, but in other countries, the effects are far more devastating and scary.

KBK
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands

The key point about global warming is that it is being held down right now by a decrease in solar storms, and that is a temporary reprieve.

The conditions that create global warming are rampant and extreme.

The thing that most folks don't understand is that global warming creates more extremes in weather, like warmer winters, colder winters, colder summers, warmer summers.

Basically, like a drunk on the highway, the median is not observed.

Without clear-headed observation, this point allows 'factions' to emerge that get to quote their desired point/numbers/information about the weather and scream from the rooftops that it is an extreme problem or that it is a total lie. Both are true.

The weather is wobbling...and it is getting worse.

JSBach
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands


Quote:
The key point about global warming is that it is being held down right now by a decrease in solar storms, and that is a temporary reprieve.

The conditions that create global warming are rampant and extreme.

The thing that most folks don't understand is that global warming creates more extremes in weather, like warmer winters, colder winters, colder summers, warmer summers.

Basically, like a drunk on the highway, the median is not observed.

Without clear-headed observation, this point allows 'factions' to emerge that get to quote their desired point/numbers/information about the weather and scream from the rooftops that it is an extreme problem or that it is a total lie. Both are true.

The weather is wobbling...and it is getting worse.


True and seldom spoken about KBK.
Can I add an additional highly speculative dimension. Given the nature of our species:-
1. Do we deserve to survive?
2. If we do and finally spread out through the galaxies, what are the implications ( or to use a sloppy modern expression - what would be the 'impact') for any other intelligent species who gets in our way?

JIMV
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands


Quote:
The key point about global warming is that it is being held down right now by a decrease in solar storms, and that is a temporary reprieve.

The conditions that create global warming are rampant and extreme.

The thing that most folks don't understand is that global warming creates more extremes in weather, like warmer winters, colder winters, colder summers, warmer summers.

Basically, like a drunk on the highway, the median is not observed.

Without clear-headed observation, this point allows 'factions' to emerge that get to quote their desired point/numbers/information about the weather and scream from the rooftops that it is an extreme problem or that it is a total lie. Both are true.

The weather is wobbling...and it is getting worse.

That is the beauty and strength of the new faith. Gets warmer, Global Warming. Gets colder, Global Warming. More rain, Global Warming. Dryer, Global Warming...what a convenient faith...every possible weather phenom is "Global Warming" and only the High Priests can, by sacrificing the economy but gaining political power, save us!

Wacky....it is the modern equivalent of the Tulip Fad of the 1600's.

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=469

bifcake
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands

First, it was "Save the whales", then it was "save the rain forest", then it was "save the wetlands", then it was "save the ozone layer", then it was "save the spotted owl", now it's "global warming".

Americans love to rally behind various causes. This is just part of our social fabric.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands


Quote:
First, it was "Save the whales", then it was "save the rain forest", then it was "save the wetlands", then it was "save the ozone layer", then it was "save the spotted owl", now it's "global warming".

Americans love to rally behind various causes. This is just part of our social fabric.

Yep, coldest winter in years in the northern states and it all because of global warming. Can any one say, "little ice age". I'm still waiting for the great plague. Thank god the Irish got out of Ireland during the great potato famine. And Krakatoa contributed more to air pollution than anything man created. It's my spray cans that are doing it along with my evil SUVs. BTW, Krakatoa is coming back. The shot heard around the world. It's gonna be awesome.

You made it Bach. Toccata and Fugue in D minor. Touche'

Buddha
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands

OK, just for fun:

For the believers, what would it take to convince you that global warming is not taking place?

For the nonbelievers, what would it take to make you believe?

I'll let y'all know what's up when the Seychelles go under water.

bifcake
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands

I'll believe it when Netherlands sinks.

Actually, I think global warming may indeed take place, I just think that it's irrelevant whether it is or it isn't and I think the causes are irrelevant as well. Whatever it is, we must adapt. I think it's easier and cheaper to adapt than to try to revamp our entire civilization overnight.

tomjtx
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands

Again, for a non-political , scientific discussion of differing views on anthropogenic climate forcing go to
climatesci.org

JSBach
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands


Quote:
Again, for a non-political , scientific discussion of differing views on anthropogenic climate forcing go to
climatesci.org

Thanks for a breath of sanity tomjtx.
Putting aside for now the question of us getting colder or hotter or whatever, consider this. You're the captain of a large space ship, well provisioned but ultimately limited in size. Do you ignore the fact that your passengers and crew are breeding like rabbits to an extent that will soon require you to put a limit on population growth and institute rationing or do you simply ignore the problem?

JIMV
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands
tomjtx
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands

Too bad that is from inhoffe's site as many will dismiss it.

As a rather far leftie I would have dismissed as well, until I did a lot of research.
Forget who has the web page, click the links to the info from the scientists.

The GW issue is very complex and the politicization of this issue is unfortunate.

There are a number of scientists who think co2 is the least important climate forcing. They think land use and aerosol emission (no, not from a can) are more important.


Quote:
Another 650 views

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?F...f0-274616db87e6

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands

It snowed in New Orleans this week. It will need to snow several more times in New Orleans to establish a scientific method double blind test for those that can't see the forest for the trees.

JIMV
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Re: Global Warming and the Netherlands

As regards global warming, my view is essentially the same as yours: Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) is a scam, with no basis in science.

It is obvious that anthropogenic global warming is not science at all, because a scientific theory makes non-obvious predictions which are then compared with observations that the average person can check for himself. As we both know from our own observations, AGW theory has spectacularly failed to do this. The theory has predicted steadily increasing global temperatures, and this has been refuted by experience. NOW the global warmers claim that the Earth will enter a cooling period. In other words, whether the ice caps melt, or expand --- whatever happens --- the AGW theorists claim it confirms their theory. A perfect example of a pseudo-science like astrology.

In contrast, the alternative theory, that the increase and decrease of the Earth's average temperature in the near term follows the sunspot number, agrees (roughly) with observation. And the observations were predicted before they occurred. This is good science.

I no longer trust "scientists" to report observations correctly. I think the data is adjusted to confirm, as far as possible, AGW. We've seen many recent cases where the data was cooked in climate studies. In one case, Hanson and company claimed that October 2008 was the warmest October on record. Watts looked at the data, and discovered that Hanson and company had used September's temperatures for Russia rather than October's. I'm not surprised to learn that September is hotter than October in the Northern hemisphere.

Another shocking thing about the AGW theory is that it is generating a loss of true scientific knowledge. The great astronomer William Herschel, the discoverer of the planet Uranus, observed in the early 1800's that warm weather was correlated with sunspot number. Herschel noticed that warmer weather meant better crops, and thus fewer sunspots meant higher grain prices. The AGW people are trying to do a disappearing act on these observations. Some are trying to deny the existence of the Maunder Minimum.

http://www.urgentagenda.com/PERMALINKS%20IV/DECEMBER%2008/22.P.WARMING.html

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