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D3sign3r
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Galactically stupid?...

...or sheer marketing genius?

I always like things to be the "best they can be" ...but could it be true that the exterior add-ons are now becoming better than the products they end up connected to? 

After purchasing the objects of wanton audio desire for sums that could solve the European debt crisis, we then spend a further squillion on all the extra trappings such as...

  • granite isolation plinths carved using ancient techniques that made the pyramids,
  • spikes formed from spun titanium,
  • connectors made from carbide-unobtainium forged by heat from the Sun ...
  •  

...and cables forged from materials mined by trolls and magically put together by pixies that a power generation company would be jealous of.

Why do we look at the back of the amplifier and think we'll be able to shovel more power into the speakers if we have cables that can hold up the golden gate bridge on their own?

Dont get me wrong... I use these tools myself - I have a good set of Kimble's ...but... 

 If the amplifier delivers power from a flimsy bit of copper track on a bit of PCB (Printed Circuit Board) ...from the standard nickel coated copper pin on the transistor connected to cable no thicker than 16 SWG (Standard Wire Gauge ...approx 1.6mm) - connected to the internal nut on the rear terminal ...why do we then proceed to add gold plated blades on OFC thicker than the half shafts from a small family saloon at financial sums that brought down Lehman Brothers?

Surely the amplifier should have it's internals to match the excesses that goes on outside it? 
 

JohnnyR
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Same reason that

......people buy $3000 power cables and claim it still makes the amp sound better. They ignore the 50 miles of wire between the outlet and the power station because......well THAT'S not as important you know *eye roll* Ignorance is bliss.

MarkBryston
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another example
JohnnyR wrote:

......people buy $3000 power cables and claim it still makes the amp sound better. They ignore the 50 miles of wire between the outlet and the power station because......well THAT'S not as important you know *eye roll* Ignorance is bliss.

 

And this is another area I would like to stereophile or TAS tackle...While I am sure this ad has run in stereophile I can document January 2011 TAS pg 6-7 a major power cord company has run an ad with chart comparisons and the claim that in fact its not the last 3-8 feet of cable as far as the amp is concerned but the first 3-8 feet of power cable the amp sees and that is why power cords sound different...and of course the charts to prove such a claim.....well since all of the reviewers in Stereophile and TAS have heard a difference in different power cables and a major player has offered an "explanation" as to why...why cant/doesn't stereophile/TAS put these claims to the test...imagine if the claims could be supported with actual independent testing...what if someone of JA or RH stature or someone similar said yes this is TRUE...well then Power cables would fly off the shelf...now giving them the benefit of the doubt that advertiser money has nothing to do with it..testing and proving this claim is true should help the audiophile consumer, the manufacturer and the Mag/reviewers credibility and financial situation...Such a bold "scientific claim" taking up a full two page ad should have raised a lot of Stereophile/TAS eyebrows...I would think they would be clamoring over JA to test and prove or disprove this claim...so we wait....your thoughts on this JA?????? is this claim true?????

geoffkait
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In a similar vein

1. Why do solid core conductors sound better than stranded conductors?

2. Why do silver cables and power cords sound better than copper ones?

3. Why do very thin cables sound better than very thick cables?

4. Why does a power cord with a white jacket sound better than if it had a black jacket?

5. Why do cryo'd power cords sound better than stock cords?

6. Why is the sky blue?

LOL

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

JohnnyR
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Easy to answer

Mark,

Stereophile doesn't test cables, power cords or interconnects. I mean why test something so simple and easy to test with all that test equipment they have just gathering dust between amp, DAC and speaker tests, when they can rely upon "reviewers" with thier "golden ears"? Yep being sarcastic. Reminds me of the Synergistic Research lil bowl fiasco. Look it up in the older posts in the forums. Two years spent talking about in in the foums and wondering how they might work instead of just doing some tests. Then the excuses for dropping it all together were amusing and sad. They won't test wire and never will. The more crazy the claims for a product, the less interest is shown in finding out the truth.

 Oh and Mr Kait, Number 6 on your list is the only one that has a valid reason.  "Better" is subjective and depends upon the individual's sight bias, the amount of money spent, and also their belief system. Hardly a scientific reason unless you are studying the human psyche.

 Now possible reasons as to why they might sound different, Number 3 could have enough attention if the cable gauge is small enough and the length long enough to cause signal loss. The rest can be refered back to my "Better is subjective" sentence.

D3sign3r
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it's valid
JohnnyR wrote:

Mark,

Stereophile doesn't test cables, power cords or interconnects. I mean why test something so simple and easy to test with all that test equipment they have just gathering dust between amp, DAC and speaker tests, when they can rely upon "reviewers" with thier "golden ears"? Yep being sarcastic. .

It is a valid point that is made there though. 

I met a guy with a great set up who claimed he could tell an audible difference between bell-wire, thick stranded and solid core. That wasnt, I dont think, scientifically mad, ....what, for me, was a step closer to a rubber padded cell with Tailoring by "Restricted and Sons".... is that he also employed little pylons keeping the cables off the floor because the floor may sap the sound away. 

However, electrical characteristics for cables can be measured...whether they can be perceived by, as you say, the "golden ears" of Über experienced reviewers is something only THEY can inform us. Some electrical properties...

  • RpE - Radiated Pulsed energy
  • |Z| - Absolute value of impedance 
  • |Y| - Absolute value of admittance
  • |R| - Absolute value of resistance
  • Ls - Series inductance
  • Cs - Series capacitance
  • Rs - Series resistance
  • XL - Reactance
  • Ɵz  - (rad) Phase characteristic in radians

But there is a bewildering array of accessories to tempt and empty our now limp wallets for, not just cables. 

MarkBryston
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speak of the devil
MarkBryston wrote:
JohnnyR wrote:

......people buy $3000 power cables and claim it still makes the amp sound better. They ignore the 50 miles of wire between the outlet and the power station because......well THAT'S not as important you know *eye roll* Ignorance is bliss.

 

And this is another area I would like to stereophile or TAS tackle...While I am sure this ad has run in stereophile I can document January 2011 TAS pg 6-7 a major power cord company has run an ad with chart comparisons and the claim that in fact its not the last 3-8 feet of cable as far as the amp is concerned but the first 3-8 feet of power cable the amp sees and that is why power cords sound different...and of course the charts to prove such a claim.....well since all of the reviewers in Stereophile and TAS have heard a difference in different power cables and a major player has offered an "explanation" as to why...why cant/doesn't stereophile/TAS put these claims to the test...imagine if the claims could be supported with actual independent testing...what if someone of JA or RH stature or someone similar said yes this is TRUE...well then Power cables would fly off the shelf...now giving them the benefit of the doubt that advertiser money has nothing to do with it..testing and proving this claim is true should help the audiophile consumer, the manufacturer and the Mag/reviewers credibility and financial situation...Such a bold "scientific claim" taking up a full two page ad should have raised a lot of Stereophile/TAS eyebrows...I would think they would be clamoring over JA to test and prove or disprove this claim...so we wait....your thoughts on this JA?????? is this claim true?????

Mikey interviews the manufactor that I alluded to..

 

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm?utm_campaign=&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%%xtlinkname%%&utm_name=musicdirect+soundbytes+issue+%23492h+11-4-11

geoffkait
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Gosh, noone tests cables?
D3sign3r wrote:
JohnnyR wrote:

Mark,

Stereophile doesn't test cables, power cords or interconnects. I mean why test something so simple and easy to test with all that test equipment they have just gathering dust between amp, DAC and speaker tests, when they can rely upon "reviewers" with thier "golden ears"? Yep being sarcastic. .

>>>>>>>>Actually, noone tests cables, power cords and interconnects. Besides, if someone doesn't like the test results he can always disparage the test procedures, so what's the point? Do you purchase amplifier based on test results? Do you purchase a TV based on test results? Do you purchase speakers based on test results, or do you listen to them first, or at least read a review that inspires you to buy them?

It is a valid point that is made there though. 

I met a guy with a great set up who claimed he could tell an audible difference between bell-wire, thick stranded and solid core. That wasnt, I dont think, scientifically mad, ....what, for me, was a step closer to a rubber padded cell with Tailoring by "Restricted and Sons".... is that he also employed little pylons keeping the cables off the floor because the floor may sap the sound away. 

>>>>>>>>Ah, now we're getting somewhere, someone actually listens to cables. How revolutionary. And why not elevate cables? - one suspects that the floor interacts with the signal in the cable - you know, vibration, electric static charge, dielectric, things in that vein. If isolating the cables from the floor improves the sound, gosh, could we be onto something?

However, electrical characteristics for cables can be measured...whether they can be perceived by, as you say, the "golden ears" of Über experienced reviewers is something only THEY can inform us. Some electrical properties...

  • RpE - Radiated Pulsed energy
  • |Z| - Absolute value of impedance 
  • |Y| - Absolute value of admittance
  • |R| - Absolute value of resistance
  • Ls - Series inductance
  • Cs - Series capacitance
  • Rs - Series resistance
  • XL - Reactance
  • ?z  - (rad) Phase characteristic in radians

>>>>>>>>>I suppose there's a general feeling among skeptics and naysayers there's some magic formula for cables, interconnects and power cords - all one needs to do is adjust the electrical variables to obtain the perfect cable, IC or power cord. Or that sonic characteristics are directly related to electrical properties - or cost. Cables sound different in different systems for any number of reasons; they need to be broken in; they interact with the electrical and mechanical characteristics of the components, and with the floor. So, who's the brave, patient soul who's going to test, say, 5 cables? It would take months, if not years, to do it properly. Even then, the procedures and results would be argued about for years, and rightfully so.

>>>>>>>There's also the uh nagging suspicion that the electric parameters you listed is not, by any means, a complete list of cable parameters, including non-electrical ones, even unknown ones (gasp) that affect the sound. I know what you're thinking - it MUST be electrical/electronic! Your post is really just a Strawman, inasmuch as the arguement is what else could there possibly be?

But there is a bewildering array of accessories to tempt and empty our now limp wallets for, not just cables. 

JohnnyR
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Run along

peabrain. We have enough spamming lately without you chiming in with your useless posts.

geoffkait
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Mirror, mirror on the wall

Looking in the mirror, again, dipstick?

Geoff Kait
Machismo Dramatica

soulful.terrain
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lol!
geoffkait wrote:

Looking in the mirror, again, dipstick? Geoff Kait Machismo Dramatica

 

LMFAO!

JohnnyR
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Two Useless Posters in a Row

 

Mr Kait , go peddle your FRAUD products elsewhere and by the way I think you may be in violation of forum rules by posting fake names for your company? Try at least to be truthful about ONE thing you are associated with. Yes why test cables and power cords, I mean the manufacturer says they work and that's good enough huh?So why does JA bother to test amps, speakers, DACs and other electrical products? Why test the FRAUD products you make? Lets just hand over our money gladly and take your word that they do what they claim?  Yeah right.

Soulful here's some LOL and LMFAO just for you. Now go post more drivel in the Open Bar forum if you don't have anything to say here that's on topic. Sorry no liberal cables in here made by Obama.

jgossman
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That's because

He doesn't believe in cable creation.  He believes in harrassing people into giving away the nice cables they worked hard to get themselves but don't really deserve.  Unless they are deserving of an exception, meaning they gave the campaign plenty of cables.  Some would call that extortion, but then that would make the President of the United States a run of the mill inner city shakedown artist.

But I digress.

Since we are discussing shake down artist, lets get back to those who shake down people by thier own will, rather than by graft.

Magic pebbles, anyone?

D3sign3r
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audio paranormal activity

I guess Jgrossman you are talking about audio paranormal activity 

I'll make a pentangle of salt and stick candles in each corner

Soothsayerman
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Really?

This whole type of discourse has really become supremely boring because there is always a luddite that enters in and a conversation quickly ensues that really serves as nothing but to kill off these forums.

There is a small group of people that behave as if they have Phd's in physics, quantum mechanics, electrical engineering, psychoacoustics, mechanical engineering and electrical engineering and hand out proclamations as if they are laws of nature yet probably believe that electricity is the same thing as electrons. Amazing and yet somehow supremely boring at the same time.

greenelec
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The cure

The way to cure this audio nervosa is to get a prescription for medical hemp. It makes everything sound great! This is the real reason for the golden age of stereo music in the 60s,70s.

 

The coke of the 80s, and 90s made every one think they needed to spend more money than God to show off to their women what big shots they were. This phycosis can be cured by the above prescription. 

That's just the facts as I see them.

soulful.terrain
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The solution
greenelec wrote:

The way to cure this audio nervosa is to get a prescription for medical hemp. It makes everything sound great! This is the real reason for the golden age of stereo music in the 60s,70s.

 

Right on brother! nicely stated.

JoeE SP9
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Hemp

Hemp is the term applied to the low grade stuff! It's usually suitable for making rope and speaker cones only.

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