Priced almost 600 Euros, no less!
Now do you people have any customers for the photosynthesis-induced hearing disability cure?
It's just becoming more gross as time is passing by!

N.B. I won't bother to comment as the whole "explanation" is more than idiotic: it borders on insanity.

Now this is more like it. Instead of trying to disrupt other parts of the hobby I think geoff & May should come right out and speak to what they are about. Notice on both of their threads where people were asking them to be straight up and honest with the forum here there was no mention of these ideas. This was very telling to me and many others, and even though we asked again and again, nothing but insults and what seemed to be cover ups. So I'm personally very happy that threads are being started on these issues and listeners can see the origins of both May's and geoff's belief systems.

Debating these issues is where both geoff and May belong and not on the other topics where they have no to limited experience in. I don't have a problem when people try to explore in what may look like the abstract: existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence. What I have a problem with is when they try to blend their beliefs in with the mainstream of science and practical applications.

The line between what is "done" and what is the "idea" should always be drawn in order to not have the hobby thrown in the spin blender. Frankly I see this as not much different than the belief that over-built products will sound better than well laid out ones. As weird as it may seem to read these concepts, I find it just as weird that high end audio has built an idea (belief) of building products based on expensive looks.

So for myself, as much as these writings make me crack a smile, and hanging out with some of these abstract types as well (both home & pro), I see similarities between this and the exotic equipment looks. Lets be honest high end audio has built it's own version of the abstract and has been selling it for many years now. In all cases we need to get to the truth and stop talking and defending fiction.

Sometimes when I see how far the abstract has moved away from the actual listening, I wonder if the high end audio part of this hobby will ever find it's way back to the music. I think about the millions of happy audiophiles who have found their happiness outside of these pages and have moved on to specialized forums and wonder why instead of productive chats these threads end in overturned tables and rage.

All this talk and so little doing. I walk around my 5 systems (if I include my headphones) and then come up here to promote a little (thank you Stereophile) and so much of the time see threads that should be productive turned into trash. I even see geoff trashing his own threads and shake my head as I laugh a little.

Geoff, if you could focus on the possible (fiction or not) and find a way to not attack, I think you would find people willing to engage in those possibilities, which is what I believe May wants. Turning everything into a personal war blows every chance that you guys have to make in-roads. It seems that the both of you are still back on the very beginning steps of proof, and if you could zone in and "DO" the proof it would give the credibility to move from hoax to potential.

I hope you (May & geoff) can come to a place where you can see others as a plus and not always an opponent to take on. Letting people challenge you and you demonstrate in return as your proof has always been the way of audio and music as far as that goes. Moving from fiction to truth is a matter of doing.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

iosiP. I had been in the middle of a lengthy reply to the questions you asked me to reply to when I saw your latest ‘response’.

One of the questions you asked me to reply to was :-

>>> “Do you agree that Geoff intrudes himself in any topic, whether it is related to whatever he does (or pretends to do) or not?” <<<

Geoff has just started a completely new thread with details of a free tweak. NOT an intrusion into anyone else’s thread !!!!!

YOU are the first to immediately jump into that thread !!!

Now, either it is perfectly OK and permitted for you to participate in ANY thread or it isn’t ??

So, why do you want there to be one rule for you but a different rule for someone else i.e. Geoff ??

Now, isoiP. Michael said :-

>>> “Did you know that if there are several people listening in a room with positive thoughts going on, a person outside the room could very likely hear the music sounding better? Your body is a generator just like any other power generator.” <<<

I would like to ADD to that observation. If someone in a listening room tells a lie (or even thinks a lie) then the sound will be perceived as worse by EVERYONE in the same room – not just by the person telling the lie !!

Linkage is there, isoiP. Whether YOU want to believe it or not – it is there – since the beginning !!!!

I see however that in your latest reply you use the words “mumbo-jumbo”.

But, I didn’t see you challenging Michael’s comment about ‘linkage’ of positive thoughts !! And the ‘music sounding better’. I didn’t see you using the words “mumbo-jumbo” after Michael’s statement !!!!

Either you accept Michael’s statement or you think THAT is also ‘mumbo-jumbo’ but are not prepared to say such to Michael.

Michael also said :-

>>> “Information is a language and can't produce anything. When that language is put into an analog state there is movement, and movement is variable. Fields are not detrimental to anything. They are simply either in tune or out of tune.” <<<

Information is communication. Communication is information fields and has been since the beginning. There are information fields which denote danger and therefore ARE detrimental when linked to !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing to do with “in tune or out of tune” !!!! So, I will challenge Michael, yet again, on his statement that “fields are not detrimental to anything”. They CAN be !!!!

And so it goes on with me challenging Michael – yet again !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

>>> “Debating these issues is where geoff and May belong and not on the other topics where they have no to limited experience in.” <<<

Excuse me, Michael. AGAIN with the presumptions !! Exactly WHERE do I have No or limited experience ??????????????? And would therefore not be allowed to participate ??

>>> “I don't have a problem when people try to explore in what may look like the abstract: existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.” <<<

So, Michael. With your reference to:-

>>> “Did you know that if there are several people listening in a room with positive thoughts going on, a person outside the room could very likely hear the music sounding better?” <<<

YOU have proof of a physical or concrete existence do you, OR is what you stated based on ‘something you have experienced’ ??

Regarding the free tweak which Geoff has referred to.

I have stated before that MY personal policy regarding referring to OUR devices is that I respect the goodwill extended to manufacturers by Stereophile and do not wish to abuse that goodwill !!!

IosiP asked me the question :-

>>> “Do you agree that Geoff intrudes himself in any topic, whether it is related to whatever he does (or pretends to do) or not?” <<<

Now, YOU as well as iosiP have jumped straight into a thread which Geoff started (with both of your opinions) and yet you both complain if Geoff gets involved with threads you might start !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>> “Moving from fiction to truth is a matter of doing.” <<<

It’s slightly different, Michael. It is a matter of moving from experience/observation to trying to get to the truth. Which, as I keep saying, means asking questions and questions until we get close !!!!!

Regards,
May Belt
PWB Electronics.

May

12345, abcde are the tools of language, language is the meaning, however without the "action" involved in the production of the language it goes nowhere. Reading is an action that is based in vibratory, speaking is an action based in vibratory. Playing music is an action based in vibratory. You say I don't answer you, well I challenge you to show language in action and you don't, so the challenges you make are simply in your head. Do you really wonder why people say "bordering on insane" May? Come on, page after page without any gain May, really?

Here's the real issue!

iosiP asked May to answer without a spin, May was not able to do this, nor has May been able to comment without spins on any issues. As I personally have experienced here May has yet to make any challenge to me, but is bold about doing so as if there is some grand Q&A to be a part of. There isn't any except for May's comment of a challenge itself.

I am glad though that you admit to supporting geoff's behavior as it puts you in the same boat with him. You know as well as every reader that comes here and reads from start to finish that geoff kait is about starting internet trolling. It has nothing to do with this thread or the last, but instead years of trolling the audio forums.

"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

If your saying May, that geoff is not doing this on purpose, than I put you under the same spot light. Time tells all and as much as I and others here have offered you a way to explain yourself you make the choice.

My dear, you haven't the credentials to challenge me by your own words.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Now, YOU as well as iosiP have jumped straight into a thread which Geoff started (with both of your opinions) and yet you both complain if Geoff gets involved with threads you might start !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or better yet, a taste of your own medicine!

If geoff and May came to threads to offer something of value I have never seen it turned away, but when it is troll after troll it's childish, but hey May if that's OK with you that's exactly how you will be refered to in the future.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

>>> “May
12345, abcde are the tools of language, language is the meaning, however without the "action" involved in the production of the language it goes nowhere.” <<<

Now I WILL give you a lecture, Michael.

Language is just the LATEST form of communication.

Communication has been around millions of years – 12345 or ABC was never used in the past, nor was speaking the actual words !!!!

The spelt word Danger links to all the past communications of Danger – whatever form those communications took. A shriek, a squeal, a show of plumage, a particular chemical. Whatever has ever been used to denote Danger. The same principle applies to reassurance. A quiet muttering from a parent chimp to a young chimp, or a call from the animal left as sentinel, through to the actual words ‘It’s OK, you can relax, the danger has gone away’. All mean the same and all “link!

You are so desperate for everything to come under the ‘vibrations heading’ that you can only think talking or listening or reading.

Did you need reading or talking to be going on when you described the following ?

>>> “Did you know that if there are several people listening in a room with positive thoughts going on, a
person outside the room could very likely hear the music sounding better?” <<<

Or, was that some FORM of communication ?????????

Communication, Michael. Affecting the sound !!! WOW. Now THAT is advanced concepts !

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

>>> “I am glad though that you admit to supporting geoff's behavior as it puts you in the same boat with him.” <<<

You are at it YET again, Michael. Putting words into my mouth I never said.

There is an expression “Pot calling the kettle black”. I was merely pointing out that you and isoiP complain when Geoff enters discussion threads you might have started but yet are the first two to reply to a post which Geoff started.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

Oh May, your desire to lecture me for some very strange reason is amusing. Are you just trying to ask me out on a date?

I'll tell you what, we'll meet. I'll bring my Vibes and you & geoffy-boy-kramer can bring your chimps & dogs.

do you guys have any friends? you seriously need to get out more or play some Rickie Lee Jones or something lol

my lord, now I'm desperate lol

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

When Geoff jumps into Michael's topics by touting his morphic & quantum thingies it's called trolling and OT (shorthand for off-topic).
OTOH, if the same Geoff would comment on Michael's topics by stating his opinions about tuning this would not be trolling but just an honest dose of skepticism and/or dissent (we are entitled to our own opinions, aren't we?).

So now you have it: I doubt your four-legged tweak works and think your explanations do not hold water so I expressed my opinions, but I never mentioned tuning or anything else as an alternative. Now is this sticking to the subject or not?

P.S. Still waiting for your answers and hope you won't use this topic to justify a non-combat attitude.

No trolling from me, as I said in my first post on this thread, I think these are the right kinds of threads for both geoff and May to be involved in as they talk more about the types of things the two of them focus on more. And I also feel if "they" stay on topic we can have some good and honest conversations about these.

I usually (if folks want to look) don't come to geoff's product threads, however I think that because there needs to be a better rationing of info according to specialized areas it's good to have this particular talk. Maybe this should be a separate thread topic in itself, but I purposely tried this on a few occasions for geoff and May to take advantage of, but everytime the threads quickly turned into these un ending challenges, questions and no talk about their ideas and products. I can link to some of these threads for reference. I didn't start those threads for any other reason than having a place for May & geoff to explain their concepts. I have zero desire to troll here there or anywhere, but I also won't be trolled without kicking some A**. Listeners deserve a lot more than being trolled, and I'm glad to see some come up to be responsible adults and speak up when this takes place. Noone is asking anyone to not state their opinions, but there is a way to do this without the goal being to provoke others. Time to grow up and talk audio. I want to say though to geoff & may, you troll and you'll be called out. I don't want to hear any of this we do it too stuff cause that's pure BS. The rest of us are trying to simply put trolls in their place when they come here to disrupt.

We all should be pushing this hobby forward not throwing spins of trolling. Geoff May, your in your 80's act like it and you will get respect in return. Your not talking to uneducated people here. Speaking for myself I don't need to call someone a liar cause they expose themselves, same goes for trolling, and certainly same goes for inexperience fraud. If your a "Doer" you can spot someone who isn't a mile away. You see their spin from the word go. You see when they try to play the spin reverse game, and in the end they never truly come through with the goods. This doesn't mean that they have nothing to say (everyone has something to say). It means that they are using an old political trick of who speaks the loudest wins. The thing is, in audio the truth happens in the listening room. The listening room is this hobbies court, and the arguements can go on for years, but is never settled outside of that court room. Doesn't really matter who paints the picture or how colorful they paint it. When we step in that listening room it's all belts on the floor (a boxing term). It means when you step in the ring as champ, your no longer champ till the final bell of "doing" is done. This is the hobby and industry of playing, recording and playing back. All of those are action words and I don't care how many theories come spilling out or where from, theory collecting is a different hobby than playing music. So is trolling forums.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

You've probably noticed that I have stayed on topic more than either may or geoff on this thread. I also take the time to explain my points of view, whether it be responding to the topic or addressing comments made to me.

I think if geoff and may spent more time on the topics themselves they would find that there is really no need to create spins and sidetracks. I mean really, how hard can it be to do any of the tweaks they talk about? Not rocket science folks. No need for them to make something look more complicated than it is (I hold myself to the same standard). I know geoff doesn't have a system to try these tweaks on, but that doesn't have to stop the rest of us, and there's the issue of do we need real time exploring or not. I say, if your interested give it a go and see how their mind tweaks work or don't work for you, and explore why. I know we do tons of mind tweaks ourselves here at TuneLand, but we don't try to shroud them in mysteries and "IF's". Just the opposite, we see all things connected and simply based in physics. Why fight physics when you can use it? Physics isn't something broken that needs repaired. Look at the word "nature" itself. Nature is the concept of natural order seeking to be in harmony (in-tune) with itself. It's based on a system of checks and balances, give and take. It's important to see that the whole of nature is variable and always in motion "the act of physics". You have natural, unnatural and supernatural, but the essence of natural is based on a working together through adjusting the variables, whether it be "naturally" or human influenced. Maybe geoff and May feel what they are doing is in the realm of supernatural, and if so should explain how these things happen and why. If it is in nature, it has an explaination. Just a matter of digging deeper.

Instead of me being on this thread made into something it isn't, I would like to invite geoff and may to explain some of their concepts and ideas for us to consider. For example May talks about natural vs artifical which I think is a worth while discussion and we all can add to the mix.

I really do believe that these threads should be about exploring views and experiences. If we choose to be open to different points of view all of these threads can be much more productive. We don't have to always agree, we may not every agree, but we do owe it to ourselves to explore our hobby, and part of this is looking at these topics through the eyes of each other, even if it's just to get to know each other better.

So, in saying this let me open the floor up to geoff and May again, and hopefully this time in doing this the true intent of each can be seen and appreciated.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Mg :-

>>> “The thing is, in audio the truth happens in the listening room.” <<<

So, let’s search for the truth, shall we ???????????

But, to do so we have to ask questions.

>>> “This is the hobby and industry of playing, recording and playing back. All of those are action words” <<<

Yes, and when we have done the actions and got some results, then we have the questions WHERE, WHY and HOW has the musical information been affected ??

>>> “All of those are action words and I don't care how many theories come spilling out or where from, theory collecting is a different hobby than playing music. “ <<<

Michael. The theories spilling out, theory collecting is because there are NO complete explanations as to why the sound changes everytime it does.

There is YOUR theory of vibrations. There is Ethan Winer’s theory of room acoustics or his limit of four parameters. There is Ethan’s associate who thinks any change in the sound is because each time one sits down there is a different position of one’s head. There is Unclestu’s theory that it is to do with RF interference – so NO, it is not a different hobby than playing music. It happens because we DON’T know, every time, exactly why the music ‘we are playing’ changes !!!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

>>> “If it is in nature, it has an explaination. Just a matter of digging deeper.” <<<

>>> “I think is a worth while discussion and we all can add to the mix.” <<<

>>> “I really do believe that these threads should be about exploring views and experiences. If we choose to be open to different points of view all of these threads can be much more productive. We don't have to always agree, we may not every agree, but we do owe it to ourselves to explore our hobby, and part of this is looking at these topics through the eyes of each other, even if it's just to get to know each other better.” <<<

Brilliant. Michael. Let’s begin with you giving us an explanation for the effect you described earlier.

>>> “Did you know that if there are several people listening in a room with positive thoughts going on, a person outside the room could very likely hear the music sounding better?” <<<

For the person outside the room to be able to hear the music sound better, WHERE has the musical information (of say Dvorak’s New World) been changed. HOW has the musical information (of say Dvorak’s New World) been changed, and WHY has the musical information (of say Dvorak’s New World) been changed ??

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

1. Spelling "DANGER" means nothing for someone who does know any English (so all your foils should come in language-specific versions).

2. Michael's assertion about the linkage between "positive feelings" in a room and whatever is heard outside that room is not mumbo-jumbo (as this would imply a far fetched explanation), it's pure BS.

May, I don't have a theory I just follow the laws of the fundamental forces and tuning. I have a method of tuning but it's not a theory. I didn't go looking for a theory about audio, I just started tuning because it worked and it's what I always did with musical instruments and found the same approach works with the entire audio signal and chain. I can't speak to Mr. Winer or the approaches of others. I'm sure everyone has their own history and formation, but mine is simply empirical first and then I start to research and study the physics behind it. I didn't take physics and then decide to practice it.

If you'll bear with me, I think you'll see where we have our disconnect. You speak a lot about misrepresenting, and I don't know if anyone is trying to do this with me, but when I read your ideas of what I do it's a different version than what I actually do. I don't say much about it and usually just let it go, but as I have tried to say and maybe not loud enough or well enough. And I apologize for any miscommunications on my part about what I do. It's not my intent.

I'm sure you've studied the two sides of science, well my specialties are on the practical application side, meaning I do the proof first and the explaination later. This is called empirical science or empirical evidence. Two completely different science sides and many times the theory side assumes that the empirical side does things their way, basic engineer vs artist. The theorist is the "if" or hypothesis side of science or as I say often the "talk" vs the "do". It's not something I made up to irritate you geoff or anyone else. When I say this, it literally means those who talk about the doing vs those who do (the proof) first "empirical science".

You see if your wired to do the proof first you have the answers of proof and to what level or as I say variable quantity and quality. It's an extremely sound science, it's just backwards from the theory side first. Please look it up so that you can see I'm not trying to snow you. This is just honestly how I have always done what I do.

So when you say things without the doing it's flipped opposite from my wiring. My wiring tells me the listening room and specific system is the actual reality. It doesn't even register that someone would not go for the proof first. Does this help in any way?

I think you and geoff are trying to see me from the opposite side of the fence, and not the side I am actually on. So, and I'm really not trying to be rude, saying the answers haven't been given doesn't compute with me. The answers are the first thing I do. In my mind the answers is the doing itself. That may not make sense to you but this is the logic I live by. The word oscillation is a positive to me, where it may be a negative to you, and I'm sure it is to geoff. But see this is how we come up with the meanings we do. All of us draw our pictures according to how we are wired, and where geoff sees vibrations as the devil I see them as a must.

anyway hope this is a beginning

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

>>> “OK May, here you have it!

1. Spelling "DANGER" means nothing for someone who does know any English (so all your foils should come in language-specific versions).

2. Michael's assertion about the linkage between "positive feelings" in a room and whatever is heard outside that room is not mumbo-jumbo (as this would imply a far fetched explanation), it's pure BS.” <<<

1) Danger is communication and therefore an information field !! So, it exists. If someone shouts “Watch out there’s danger about” in the French language, or in the German language, or any other language etc etc it means exactly the same in whichever language you say it and ‘links’ into the same (danger) information field which has been used for millions of years. The important thing is not the language used but the ‘linkage’ it makes to information fields.

Plants use the same ‘linkage’ – to convey danger – even though they can neither read or write or speak or see words !!!!!!

I see you describe Michael’s assertion as BS but I didn’t see you challenge him about his assertion. Why not, if in your opinion he was talking BS ???????? You are quick, even instantaneous to challenge ME if you think I am talking BS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, isoiP, just to inform you, it is not BS. It happens. And if you did as much experimentation as Peter and I and Geoff and Michael do, YOU would know the same !!!

Nor is it BS the fact that a person telling a lie (or even thinking a lie) in the room with others listening to music, then everyone in that room could experience the sound getting worse (going harsh and more aggressive) – not just the person telling the lie.

Quite a number of people, in past Hi Fi shows, who wanted to be mischievous, would go into competitors rooms and cause mayhem with the sound !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry sir, but you are SOOOO far behind.

Now, the main thing is what I have been saying to Michael for the past two years. When you KNOW what I have just described, then one IS faced with the questions :-

Where is the sound being changed ?

How is the sound being changed ?

Why is the sound being changed ?

So, isoiP. Now YOU have it !!!!!!!!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

>>> “Anyway, hope this is a beginning.” <<<

I hope so too.

>>> “The answers are the first thing I do. In my mind the answers is the doing itself.” <<<

No Michael. Doing (carrying out the experiment of people in a listening room thinking positive thoughts and allowing a person outside the room to experience the sound being better) DOES NOT give the answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It raises questions !!!!!!!!!!!

I have asked you for YOUR explanation as to Why it changes the sound, How it changes the sound and Where it changes the sound. The mere DOING does NOT give you the answers. Only the answer that it ‘happens’. It is
WHY, HOW and WHERE it happens that we want you to explain.

>>> “May, I don't have a theory I just follow the laws of the fundamental forces and tuning.” <<<

OK then. What are the laws of the fundamental forces and tuning which explain the above situation ??

>>> “but mine is simply empirical first and then I start to research and study the physics behind it. I didn't take physics and then decide to practice it.” <<<

OK again. Then what are the physics you have studied which explain the above situation ?????????

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

If I could throw this into the mix. Maybe isoiP will ask or won't, but you see when isoiP makes his opinion known whether I agree or not, we have (I believe) established a listeners repore. I trust that isoiP means what he is saying. He's not saying it to troll or offend, but stating his view based on his belief system. I feel perfectly comfortable with his statement as truth to him.

But notice, no flaming. No your full of S***, just a straight out opinion. It's funny cause in a way he just proved my point lol. I could feel his truth in this statement and it gave me an emotional high. Didn't make me POed, but respect for the honesty. I know without a doubt he did not make this statement to disrupt this thread. And I think he knows by now (I hope) I don't have the need to defend my experiences, they're mine and I own them. They don't have to belong to him, and I have no desire to force them on him.

let me share this one while we're at it

I have had several listeners come over to my place and without me saying a word they would be sitting or standing in another room and hear a soundstage from the room playing. Meaning the music is playing in one room and you can experience the stage in another room. It's not exactly the same obviously but there is certainly a stage. I didn't set this up as a trick or treat type of thing, but I understand why it is happening and have set it up before, just playing around. Now isoiP might jump on me about this one too, but it would be interesting if he was here sometime and heard it for himself. He would probably ask how? And because I have experienced it and takin the time to "practice" this and many things similar it has taught me about Pressure Zones and how they work, and also how our brains pickup and relate to signal. This truth wasn't made by me, only revealed to me by experiencing.

I say this because I'm not so down on some of this stuff. The mind is the greatest tool we have and our senses do things all day long that if we stopped to think about it, some of the reality would amaze us.

As I said and anyone can look it up, experience and believe what they wish. There are 3 distinctive parts to nature. There's "natural" "unnatural" and "supernatural". I didn't make the rules, I just enjoy them. And I enjoy learning about them. Does this mean I'm into snake oil? Not at all, but I am into experiencing.

michael green
MGA/Roomtune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi May

I got to get caught up on the day, but then I'll come back and do some posting on this. But, when I do can we agree to make a note so I don't have to repeat?

I really do have tons of things that require my poor little brain to focus on and repeating is a major drag.

michael green
MGA/Roomtune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

1. Telling or even thinking a lie triggers instinctive reactions from the "perpetrator" (avoidance of eye contact, looking sideways - usually to the left, rubbing their nose etc.). Although those reactions may not be CONSCIENTIOUSLY perceived by others they will be registered by the internal "danger meter" and thus will change their mood and perception of the sound.

2. There are several courses that help understand body language and those are mandatory for some jobs (police investigators, "special" agents of all kind, shrinks etc.). Also, there are courses teaching people to CONTROL their body language (not mandatory but useful for managers, business negotiators and salespersons). I'm sure you heard about "poker face", what do you think it actually means?

3. Conclusion: yes, telling a lie in room full of listeners would trigger, well, bad feelings even if no one is CONSCIOUS that you lied. And even if just a few people could see you the negative feeling will spread as those people will give slight signs of discomfort that will be received and interpreted by other people in the room.

However, if you extend this to people OUTSIDE the room it all becomes BS.

P.S. Now that I finished writing this I wiped the back of my neck with my left hand, bending my head down. This a sign that (a) I'm tired and (b) I wonder if I could get my message through. Now if I would have wiped it with my right hand while leaning my head backwards it would have meant I just finished a task an I'm intending to relax.

1. You go low-mass and even strip your CD player of its casing. I go high-mass and own a player weighting almost 50 lbs.
2. You build resonant 2-way speakers that are tune-able. I own 3-way speakers that are almost as inert as a tombstone.
3. We both believe in tuning, except you would go to great lengths to tune for each and every record while I would rather just tune for different kinds of music and different SPLs.

But basically we are both listeners so we can compare our experiences. Furthermore, I wouldn't ever refuse to listen to one of your systems and I sure hope you would not reject an invitation to listen to mine (a pity that we are located on almost opposite "sides" of the world).
We may have different opinions on some facts but this does not make us enemies* but just... well, free thinkers! And music lovers, for all that this means.

Happy tuning,
Costin

*And certainly would never make me question you hairdo, education or drinking habits as all this would be irrelevant for your musical experience. Unless, of course, I run out of arguments... but then I'd rather step out of the topic since this would be the only decent thing to do.

IosiP. You didn’t have to explain anything. I already knew about visual signals !!

>>> “PS. Now that I finished writing this I wiped the back of my neck with my left hand, bending my head down. This a sign that (a) I'm tired and (b) I wonder if I could get my message through. Now if I would have wiped it with my right hand while leaning my head backwards it would have meant I just finished a task an I'm intending to relax.” <<<

You couldn’t resist that snide comment could you ?? Was it really necessary during what should have been an intelligent conversation ?

>>> “3. Conclusion: yes, telling a lie in room full of listeners would trigger, well, bad feelings even if no one is CONSCIOUS that you lied. And even if just a few people could see you the negative feeling will spread as those people will give slight signs of discomfort that will be received and interpreted by other people in the room.” <<<

So, even if one considers the effect from a visual (SEEING someone ‘twitching’) on the SOUND, i.e the musical information has been changed. Which means that however brilliantly the equipment had been engineered, however much the room had been ‘tuned’ by Michael, however brilliantly the original recording had been made, the SOUND can be changed and perceived as ‘worse’.

Which now poses the question “Where has that sound been changed ?”. Before the ‘sound’ (musical information) has reached the ear drum or after ?

If seeing someone ‘twitch’ can change the sound, then what else can be having a similar effect ? Even things which are not visible ?

As they say – the million dollar question.

You have just stated in reply to Michael:-

>>> “1.You go low-mass and even strip your CD player of its casing. I go high-mass and own a player weighting almost 50 lbs.
2. You build resonant 2-way speakers that are tune-able. I own 3-way speakers that are almost as inert as a tombstone.
3. We both believe in tuning, except you would go to great lengths to tune for each and every record while I would rather just tune for different kinds of music and different SPLs.” <<<

Except that you don’t claim that, whilst giving so many other people advice, that your’s is THE answer, THE method or THE truth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which is the area where I challenge Michael.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

Hi Costin

Not only is it clear, but helpful for me. I would guess that I am part of a system tuning in some way personally about every 3 days. Not in person always but part of. We're talking super high mass studio and hall systems all the way to my very tini amps less than a pound. I try to take in as much info as I can squeeze into this little brain of mine so I don't get stuck, so everything helps. The more I can learn through others ears the easier it is for me to get the job done.

BTW, if you look at our La Crosse location everything is High Mass.

My particular job is to break every down to it's lowest state and either tune it at that, or start building it back up to the clients preferences. So it's not that I don't listen to high mass, it's just my job to be able to cover the full range, cause we never know who is going to be calling and what they may have. For example if we get a call from someone who wants us to tune up a Bryston setup, usually when they call us they're not stopping to tell us Bryston in a home or Bryston in a studio. The studio guy most of the time doesn't even know the audiophile listening world exist, past a name. Likewise the guy sitting at home doesn't necessarily know that there's some guy listening to Bryston with a completely different agenda in the studio. There's a different michael that walks into that studio vs the michael that walks into that home, has to be. For one the speakers in both cases are for totally different jobs, and designed differently.

Not to get too sidetracked here but when I'm talking about low mass here, it's a different guy than the guy who has the studio hat on. Same goes for low, medium or high mass. I have to (it's my job) to know all levels. To me the more I "do" the better equipped I am for any curve balls. I think (not trying to give excuses, maybe I am LOL) for people just getting to know me through this forum might think that I'm this tweak guy who buys up "cheap" stuff and makes it sound good LOL. In reality we do way more ultra high end systems than the types I talk about on here. As time goes on, and that's important, people get to see into the others more as far as what they do and have done. As for myself, talking shop comes in different sizes depending on the crowd.

So in my usual long winded fashion, I've enjoyed that you have let me into your listening world both from an on looker and fellow listener. I don't really look at it as agree or disagree but more a unique truth that is part of the whole truth, if that makes sense. And yes I would enjoy listening to your system and getting to know your taste. I think the hobby gets way to hung up on right and wrong and needs to loosen up when it comes to enjoying someone elses taste and expertise. The whole "better than" thing sometimes makes me a little sick to my stomach and I also think to myself "how in the world does one person know what the other person is hearing".

Way too much ego in the hobby, when there should be more pride and learning about our fellow humans.

with much respect and appreciation

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi May

Hope I can keep this up without needing to get back to work and miss out, but I'm trying to go back through and pickup on Q&A's. Thank you for your patience! Also hope that the format of MB and mg works OK for you.

MB

"For the person outside the room to be able to hear the music sound better, WHERE has the musical information (of say Dvorak’s New World) been changed. HOW has the musical information (of say Dvorak’s New World) been changed, and WHY has the musical information (of say Dvorak’s New World) been changed ??"

mg

The easiest answer is, the music signal never stops changing. Likewise our involvement with the music signal never stops as well.

A loaded question with so many angles to the answer that one has to think where to even begin. I'm not the end all be all of all the answers, but I'll add to the mix the best I can.

first the human

Our minds and bodies act and react differently every time we breathe. The air, blood and sencory intake intermingle and exchange is more advanced than all the computers of the world combined. Interestingly enough they can also be as limited to the smallest idea or notion. This is nothing new and may even seem a little first-grade-ish but it's surprising how this is so easy to forget, or put to the side.

We are living generators hooked up to, feed off of, and give to our surroundings. We are a part of, in other words. With the help of our surroundings and the power of our own senses (and others), along with a few supernatual events we can lower and elevate (or have it done automatically) our own and others radars. The Q&A's to this depends on each of our own personal experience journey. Take an engineer type who has not traveled out of his home town and has not had a lot of experience with others and put him in the same room with a world traveler who is an artist type taking on every experience possible in life and you more than likely will get extremely different takes on the same subjects. Likewise take a woman and man from different cultures who have never met and ask them the same questions. I could go down through a list as long as the road you live on and we would come up with so many differing thought proccesses that the need for the questions might disappear all together.

the fact is

We as humans have the ability to be as extreme in our differences as the snowflakes we talk about, or as like minded as our ability to be linked. We range from two complete strangers to indentical twins. They say that the average energy field of a human is around 8 feet, yet we have all experienced times where we have been linked in thought with someone far away at the same time (supernatural). Elephants communicate 100 square kilometre range with each other physically, at night 300 SQ kilometers. A close minded person may not be able to communicate to another six inches away from them.

Who we are "naturally" and how we respond naturally, unnaturally and supernaturally is unique to our experiences and the experiences within our genes. Our brain and bodies are at work before we were ever born and have their mark long after we are gone. Understanding this depends on as many factors as the differences between us themselves. We for the most part build our own boundaries and our own walls or have had them shaped by others until we expand beyond their limits. The energy itself is there but the abilities we allow our generators and sensories to pickup on and give off varies greatly.

I have in the past taught a class on listening. One of the exercises was distance listening. Some of the students could do it no problem and others couldn't do it to save their lives. It goes like this. I teach the ones who get it to listen at different distances, very similar to the way we use a focus lense on a camera. Now we all do this naturally without even thinking about it (it's how we are able to stand keeping our balance) but you would be surprised at the number of people who had to think about it first couldn't do the experiements. They were to stuck on the thought and weren't able to let go enough to allow their senses to work.

One thing I would like to see if we can do on these threads is find a way to keep the thoughts on going without loosing the train and tracks in the proccess. This of course is up to all of us, and noone has more or less to give unless they choose to.

Understanding is all based on our own will as much as anything else.

I'm speaking directly here about trolling practices. The way to prevent them is not to bait them or create them in the first place. The only expanded way to learn is directly related to our abilities to open the minds of ourselves first before others can feed us. For example if your thinking to correct another before ever understanding their point of view from where they are standing, the chances of you learning decreases along with the others chances learning from you.

If you can't operate on a forum within the idea of fair exchange your listening to be honest probably sucks (I'm saying this in general myself included). I have found that the more we engage in the act of listening the more we are able to engage with others about the listening.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi May

here's a little on the fundamental forces, sorry for the wiki sources

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction

This is a good example of me experimenting first and relating to what I had learned at a later point. Before I read what the fundamental forces were I was knee deep in using them (everyone is). The fundamental forces gets into the interconnections of physics. As you and I say "everything affects everything else". Audio is a fantastic example of the fundamental forces at work. The first thing that made sense to me concerning this was how everything as we know it really is connected to everything else. If everything affects everything else than everything is somehow connected to everything else, first hand, third party or long distance effects. We can also use the word "influences" and probably a ton more.

Two of my first audio go rounds with this was probably "absolute isolation" and "absolute inert mass". I have never been able to use, nor seen anyone else "do" the absolutes of either of these in audio. I'm not just speaking of my own experiments but literal anyone I encountered. I don't have a (cuse my french) hard on for them, I have simply seen these two somehow get misplaced in our hobby and somehow have become an inaccurate technology in the truest sense. I don't really have a problem with people using the words as much as I do them trying to defy the fundamental forces with them, and the fundamental forces are pretty true to science.

well got to run, try to come back later

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Well, except for some public preachers (LOL)

And now my take on tuning (and I promise to keep this short): I have a weak spot in my listening room that I can "tame" with a dedicated acoustic treatment. The problem is that said treatment improves (tightens) the bass but robs the treble of bloom and sparkle. Temporary solution: add or remove the contraption according to whatever music I'm listening to. Now this is far from being comfortable so I just thought, after reading Michael's web site, to build something along the lines of wooden vertical blinds that I can set (well, tune) to my preferences. I talked to a friend who is an architect by education and an audio dealer/interior decorator by trade but most importantly he has a passion for the sound and effect of wood on the listening environment, so he promised to help me with testing and manufacturing my "tunable wall treatment".
So now you see, May, this is not about having THE answer or holding THE truth, it's just about being flexible and, well, NOT taking anything for granted but letting things flow along and, most of all, realizing that any fixed tweak is only good for fixed conditions and (maybe) a "fixed" mood!

Please believe that I have no financial interest in Michael's business and never bought anything from him: the only benefits he ever offered me are novel ideas about how I can improve the sound of my system.

May, to echo Costin here and in the hopes of being all closer to the meaning of "THE".

My approach to audio is "not" to "be" "the" answer, and I think Costin gives a great example of this. Does "the" answer exist? Of course is does, and we find that answer within ourselves as we make this hobby more flexible. That's what tuning is about and that's also why I push with such passion. It's a missing link in many ways and is a freedom that takes listening to another level of success.

It's as simple as this. Why sit there being irritated by a recording if you can make an adjustment to put it "more in-tune"? Or even if you want to explore another view point of that recording.

It would be great if we could separate michael saying "HE" is the answer, and pick up on michael saying there "is" an answer. "the" answer is what we do as listeners to make our systems flexible enough to play the music to our liking, taking into account the variables that exist with all music, all systems, all conditions and all individuals.

We are wasting time by making this into something more difficult to understand than it is. What we should be doing as a hobby is exactly what Costin just did. Doesn't have to be michael's products or with michael's taste. I'm here as a producer of variable products, a pusher of the variable methods and a cheerleader for the advancement of the hobby of listening. Simple facts, again nothing more and nothing less.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

:)

You see geoff if we go through each one of these "advanced concepts" you'll see how they fit under the umbrella of "tuning"!

For us, the key is to not ignore anything. In the case of vibratory control we have found that if you transfer the energy in more than the gravity pull direction we can adjust easily to the same level of control that the mass & spring combos do. The plus of this method is a far wider range to control from. The amazing thing is how little energy needs to be transfered up (Top Tuning) to out perform a system that is only forcing down. The fundamental forces in action (interaction).

example

Top Tuning works very much like a guitar. The vibrations are not let flowing loose, but instead connected at both ends. You wouldn't connect a guitar string at one end and let the other go. The guitar would not only sound random (broken), but the vibrations would be totally out of tune with the body of the guitar. With tuning the parts are "connected" and arranged in a cooperative vibratory responsive manor (guitar string connected at both ends and to the body). Sometimes a part may respond best let set free, but most of the time having the vibratory action connected both up as well as down makes it easier to tune in the desired amount.

The great news about this is, because of the way audio components are made it's not hard to convert them into musical instruments. Take a look on TuneLand and you will find many different types of tunable systems that range from almost stock to completely disassembled and then put into tuning devices.

Back to the guitar/component. One other thing that is similar between stringing the guitar connected on both ends and then tuned and the component set free (opened up) then tuned is that in both cases the amount of usable power increases dramatically. The average (lower mass) amp tuned will give you between 25% an double the gain. Higher mass amps not as much but noticable.

Again the best way to see if this is something for you to try or have us do it with you, is to visit TuneLand and get involved with others who are doing this in real time.

So in response to geoff's comments about roaming free LOL, that's not necessarily tuning but of course can work for one setting of sound, but the more you explore you will find an entire range of variables and approaches that fit your particular parts that are suitable for the degree you wish to tune.

Thanks geoff for bringing this up on your thread for us to add to the mix.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I did have a very nice day thank you! So, now you are speaking for May Belt and that's OK. On these threads you guys talk about being separate, then together, then back to separate again. It's all cool with us. The important thing is we, after 2 longs years, have allowed you to run your course knowing that you would come to this point. And that point is "all things are variable in audio", evidently even your words.

geoff says

"You really don't get the whole PWB thing or the Machina Dynamica thing, do you?" "I post secrets everyday. See if you can find them."

mg

I'm not sure anyone cares geoff. I don't see a hobby wanting to be stuck in mysteries. I see listeners exploring and beginning down a path that they knew was there all along just needed to see a few of their fellow listening friends "doing" before they jumped in too deep. I see Tunees ready and waiting like an audio hotline to help their fellow hobbyist without flames and internet trolling getting in the way.

What I see geoff are a couple people insisting on secrets (must haves) only they have the answers to, being put to sleep, like a pet long past it's years. Mysteries and secrets are meant for the minds of the gullible and compulsive my friend. They intrigue us for a season till the "doers" do. Mysteries and secrets are meant to tempt the 15 minute fame-ers but after those 15 minutes only attract those who have not yet explored. The mystery makers always use the "we're ahead of everyone else game" , while the doers can point to a firm foundation of practical application, which in the case of tuning goes back to the very first musical instruments themselves.

So my friend quite possibly you should let May decide for herself if you speak for her or not cause ("There is no connection between what TunnelLand does and what I do, as in zero.") being your mission statement, you have pretty much placed yourself over in the land of "zero".

You did it to yourself geoff, when all you had to do was be a part of the hobby. And the good news is the hobby of listening shuts noone out. You want to separate yourself? It looks like from looking at the audio forums you have been successful at this.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Thanks for your concern geoff, I'm actually having a great time on the forums. I've been receiving a fair amount of mail thanking me for my perspective and insights so all thumbs up on this end.

And you seem to be doing well yourself, adding to the mix with your links and cute pictures.

You ought to consider joining in some of the audio discussions, or maybe an update on anything new with your portable cassette player or any new cassette tapes. Wouldn't it be cool if you could add a set of earphones and sony walkman to the peewee pic above? Now that would look cool to have some of your "advanced concepts" feature by PeeWee Herman. Kind of a Geoff Kramer PeeWee moment in audio.

have a great weekend my friend, and hang on to those handle bars, can get a little tricky

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I've been enjoying the recent posting. The differences between the approaches are becoming more revealing as time progresses.

It seems geoff wishes to keep speaking with his crayons, and the more he does the more his personal picture of himself is painted.

I hope you the listener take the time to read this thread thoroughly as well as some of the other recent threads. Good examples of spins going on and hopefully we can move on to real listening in time, but as for this thread take a look at the topic, read the article and then read what follows.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

pretty busy, thanks geoff

Some what touch and go on the curing, cause of the moonsoon season, so we have to keep an eye on the outside curing. I've been hopping between 3 shops here all hosting different projects. In fact have to leave here again in a few minutes to make my rounds. The La Crosse shops are all indoors so they don't have to constantly move things in and out, at the same time they can only build some of the products at certain times of the year. Many times we will cure here then ship sealed to the La Crosse shops where the wood gets treated with the first curing coats as soon as the wrap is taken off.

thanks for your continued interest

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Back on topic. You were talking about pictures of dogs improving audio I think. You showed 5 pictures of a dog with 4 legs a safty pin some pills and stick on pads. Later some mood lamps, and finally a picture of PeeWee Herman on his Big Adventure. I'm sure all of us would like to see more on your "advanced audio concepts".

Do you sell the PeeWee poster, and if so how much? Where should I place it in the room and based on your personal experience what changes to the sound should I expect? Has JA reviewed this for you yet?

also

Should I wrap all the other dogs (that are other colors than white) in white electrical tape before or after the photo is taken?

one last thing

Will you be calling me with barking dog on your end of the phone, and should I set his tone to exactly 7.83hz on my end, or how does that work?

looking forward to these advanced tweaks

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/