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Very nicely stated, May.
Does anyone have anything to say in response to the end point of this device? Anything constructive?
Don't fall back on placebo effect. No screaming snake oil.
Something is happening to the sound quality of CD's that have been "demagnetized". What?
Look at my questions. Someone on "the other side" please try to actually address them for once.
If you're coming here just to pour gasoline on a burning house, then you are wasting people's time. I'm tired of the constant distractions of this thread. Please, if you are interested in this topic, provide some answers.
There is some "proof" the Furutech does what it claims. There are questions that have been ignored for twenty pages.
If no one addresses these issues with anything intelligent, then the subject of snake oil has been proven to be just that - snake oil being sold to the gullible who find it easier to be cynical than to think, easier to be snide than to take in information and wonder just how that really came about.
May, if you are looking for the most likely reason people hear a difference with all these "tweaks" why don't you consider the placebo effect and remove that possibility in comparisons ?
If you really want to explore all the options you shouldn't rule that one out completely.
And I do understand that a negative result only means that those listeners under those conditions couldn't hear a diff. But I would infer that to mean it is likely the placebo effect at work. That attitude saves me money in the long run :-)
But a positive result would tell us there is a diff. and we should investigate further. Or buy the product
Hi
Im not dismissing Mays email, its just very very difficult from any technical viewpoint whatsoever to give these things credence. I have an open mind but that mind is also programmed for fault finding and bullshit, im well aware of faults caused by EMC and other such things but colouring a CD ?? c'mon.
Think about a computer CD Rom, you can copy 500MB of Microsoft office no problem with a $30 device, this reads all those bits no problem. Whats the difference between that and a music file ? just to keep my point clear, i know once its read that loads of things can happen.
I just cannot give these things any technical credence, its also difficult to acccept that they work but nobody knows why.
Alan
Part Two.
Welsh Hi Fi uses his knowledge of digital processing and looks solely at the 0s and 1s saying "once encoded on the disc, then they cannot be altered" !!!! As far as he is concerned, there is nothing else going on to investigate. He is allowing his knowledge to stop him looking at anything else - for example at the materials of the disc itself. Or, if he DOES look at the materials of the disc, it is only to say that "it cannot be magnetised, therefore it cannot be demagnatised".
Let us move away from that narrow outlook and look at what the disc is made of.
It is (usually) a layer of plastic, a layer of aluminium and a layer of plastic. It goes through a manufacturing process, then has 0s and 1s encoded on it and is then spun, horrendously, within an electronic field. What does that do to all those materials ? Does Welsh Hi Fi consider all the strains and stresses the materials have gone through or does he only consider the 0s and 1s ? Does he believe that even through all those trials and tribulations the disc is still as 'pure as fresh snow' ????????
So, let us look at plastics and ask the question "What can change plastics ?"
An Electret is plastic material, specially treated, then PERMANENTLY polarised. I am no ignoramus on this as we have manufactured electrostatic, electret, orthodynamic and moving coil headphones as well as electrostatic, orthodynamic and moving coil speaker systems !!
I ask the question "Could the plastic, aluminium, plastic layered disc, being spun horrendously within an electronic field, have a temporary polarisation pattern created on it ? Could a temporary polarisation pattern SOMEHOW create a WORSE situation so that at some time, SOMETHING can come along which can reduce that WORSE situation and make it LESS worse ??????
Read up on how the different people describe their experiences with some or all of the devices and techniques I have listed. They are ALL descriptions of 'treatments' for CDs. So, SOMETHING is having an effect on the CDs !!!!!!!!!!! Practically everyone describes how they had no idea that anything had been wrong with their sound UNTIL they then heard the effect of what they had done - UNTIL they then heard much BETTER sound !! Meaning that they could HEAR additional information - but this also means that if they were now hearing additional information, then this additional information MUST HAVE BEEN on the disc all the time !!! Which fits in with the 0s and 1s not having been affected at all !!!!! They were still there - as they had been encoded - nothing lost, just not resolved correctly before doing whatever was the treatment being described. !!!
No 4 technique may be de-stressing the materials (as is Lloyd Walker's concept). Does freezing or de-stressing relax the materials sufficiently not to allow a temporary polarisation pattern to be created ?
Does No 5 alter a temporary polarisation pattern sufficiently to take it away from being worse to being LESS worse ? Magnets have magnetism, yes, but they also have a polarity !! Can demagnetising be changing or reducing a temporarily created polarity pattern ?
Peter's extensive experiments surrounding magnets, batteries (which also have a polarity) is well known. Far too long to repeat here.
You see, it is always the comparison which is the important thing with sound. Comparing the experience of the sound in the 'worse' condition with the sound in the 'less worse' condition !! Once one hears the sound in 'less worse' condition i.e. being able to resolve more of the information available, then the description given is that the sound is MUCH BETTER !! Which, of course, it is.
Now I know that Welsh Hi Fi does not want vinyl discs included in the discussion but let me quickly introduce vinyl discs into the equation. Because so many of the things on the list I gave also refer to improving the sound of vinyl discs.
The vinyl disc is tracked by the cartridge in one specific direction - from the outer edge towards the inner hole. It is NEVER tracked in the opposite direction !!!
Could, over time and usage, a temporary polarised pattern be created on the vinyl disc ?
Something more to think about !!!! Well, Jan, you wanted a discussion !!!
Regards,
May Belt.
IMHO, this is one of the most honest statements one can make.
Some of us are able to live with unknowns and accept our experiences as valid without full and adequate explanation thereof. Others are not. It's how the world turns.
The Earth was turning on its axis even as people believed that everything else was rotating around it. The earth was round even when people were convinced it was flat. And so-called demagnetizers, at least the Bedini Ultraclarifier (which is all I have experienced so far), demonstrably improve sound even though the explanation(s) as to why have been challenged.
Whether the effects of so-called demagnetizers are due to magnetism or not is of course a salient question. Regardless, so many reliable, neutral observers have reported their positive experience with some of the devices that dismissing them out of hand says more about the dismissers' belief systems than the validity of the experience itself.
jason victor serinus
>>> "May, if you are looking for the most likely reason people hear a difference with all these "tweaks" why don't you consider the placebo effect and remove that possibility in comparisons ? " <<<
Any intelligent person, when reading of other people's experiences OR considering one's own experiences hearing differences in sound, CONSIDERS "Is it the placebo effect" as the first thing. Then as the second thing. Then as the third thing. Then, when it is proven to one's satisfaction that it cannot be the placebo effect at work, then the next thing which is considered is "Is it autosuggestion at work". This is then the fourth thing to be considered, and the fifth, and the sixth. If it is not autosuggestion, then the next thing to consider is "Is it imagination at work". And so on, checking and checking and checking !!!!! All the way through to "Is it effective marketing at work ?"
Just why is it PRESUMED, over and over again, that most people are stupid ???????????? - particularly when it comes to audio.
NOBODY wants to be fooled or to fool oneself so most people are self regulating, self checking.
Think away, to your hearts content, that it is the placebo effect, Tomjtx. That way you don't have to think further !!
Regards,
May Belt.
Stupid? No, stupid is not the word for it... Id think "manipulated" is a better one. The audio rag reviewers(rather, those that work for more mainstream "audiophile" mags(TAS, Stereophile) have, over the years, created a culture that has traveled far from the realms of science and reason to this fringe galaxy where science and reason do not exist, where reviewers can manufacture oddball claims that have no grounding whatsoever, and have those that have more money than sense throwing money at this stuff left and right. So, I blame the reviwers and the audio rags. It is a combination of placebo and suggestion.
Yes, and some people actually prefer to believe in magic. It's a romantic concept - the idea that the world (or universe) is a wondrous place with so many unknowns. But that runs counter to progress, where learning how and why helps us to advance. Once germ theory was understood, doctors started washing their hands between surgeries, etc. I challenge you or anyone else here to show how not knowing something is ever better than knowing.
I disagree. It shows only how strong the placebo effect and expectation bias really are. It's not like this is difficult to prove! All that's needed is a proper blind test. As far as I'm aware, the audible change from BS products like CD and vinyl demagnetizers have never been proven this way. But when you challenge the vendors and their "believer" customers to prove they really can hear a difference, instead of admitting they're full of it they attack blind testing as flawed - sheesh!
--Ethan
______________________
Bring back DUP
Alan, you simply cannot get past what you "know" to be "fact". And getting beyond what you already know to what you are discovering is "impossible" is at the heart of this thread.
Let me ask you this question, Alan, and I do hope you'll answer this one question.
I have no problem with the idea you are an "expert" in digital communications where life can depend on your decisions and actions. You know what you know and you understand that information to be factual and repeatable because you have both read about the data and experienced the result for yourself.
Now let's suppose for the sake of discussion someone came along and told you they were having a problem with your digital communications system and someone'e life depended upon you resolving the issue. It's been determined that all systems beyond the digital stage are operating as planned. The problem is in the 1's and 0's.
Would you simply tell them what they are experiencing is impossible, 1's and 0's cannot be corrupted? Let the person die because you are being told something you cannot resolve from your past experiences and knowledge. Or, would you actually consider the results they report and look for a cause outside of 1's and 0's being and remaining uncorruptable? A person's life or death is hinging on your decisions.
If your answer is you would do nothing because you cannot get beyond your present knowledge, please provide the telephone number for your supervisor. I do not want you to be in charge of my life or death decison.
May, all of the above are under the umbrella of the placebo effect.
The ONLY way to rule out the placebo effect is through blind testing.
If you hear a diff. blind then by all means investigate the why.
As presented, that scenario is so naive it's laughable. You have obviously never debugged a digital system at the bit level with analyzers and memory monitors etc.
--Ethan
Bring back DUP
This nails it. As soon as someone uses a proper blind test to prove that "demagnetizing" a CD or LP record makes an audible change, I will drive to Stereophile's office in Manhatten, drop trou on the sidewalk in front of their building, and proclaim through a megaphone, "I was totally wrong about everything!"
I will also mail checks for $1,000 each to May, Jan, Frog, and Steve Sammet.
--Ethan
Bring back DUP
You never cease to amaze me with your kind, caring approach to discussion.
No, I've not debugged a digital system. There, are you happy? That proves I am a droolling, f'ing idiot.
That is not the point here, Winer.
I'm trying to get Alan to answer one question - just one - out of all those he has ignored.
Now, if you have nothing of value to contribute and you are only here to stop discussion, would you please take your kind and caring approach to butting in somewhere else?
Yes, this is exactly what it proves. Seriously. You have incredibly strong opinions about subjects you know nothing about. But you persist anyway. Can you not see how stoopid this is?
It is precisely the point!
But your question itself is flawed and impossible to answer. It's even more stoopid than asking Alan, "Do you still beat your wife?" How did the bits get there in the first place? If one can determine that everything after is fine, then why not do the same before and identify the problem? And so forth.
Jan, you are so ignorant about technology I don't even know where to start. And no matter what I say, you refuse to learn, or consider any viewpoint but your own that you arrived at by intuition. Jan, you are truly one of a kind.
--Ethan
Bring back DUP
But blind testng has a variety of problems. First it is always done on systems the listener does not know intimitely. Next it uses source material that is also not intimitely known on this unknown system. To hear a subtle difference, one has to KNOW the system and music on the system. If someone could develop a blind test that includeds that, I might be more impressed.
Not all...I'm up for an argument as much as the next guy (maybe more so, I'm left-handed, and we tend to be contrarians).
But I think all the character-disparagement has taken the thread off-topic. The "usual suspects" have been going at it here and elsewhere for a long time, from what I can gather (I'm quite new here), and I imagine will continue to do so. But, the continued character-based "back-and-forth" has gotten really tiresome, for me, anyway.
I agree with Jan that we might want to steer the discussion back on-topic.
Glad you jumped in, though.
May, please.
Putting your products in the same category as Furutech's is wrapping yourself in the flag.
Don't blame me, Stereophile started it!
As to this other part, we are just looking at the same phenomenon from different angles: "...then going on to suggest that if so many people can HEAR improvements in their sound, then it must be because they are "primitive audiophiles, unable to sit and relax and really 'hear' their systems without the aid of certain potions and elixirs (or props, talismen, rituals)."
Each explanation is equally valid. Both are un-disprovable. You think audiophiles are inherently defective and need listening aids - inventing a problem for which you sell the cure. (Brilliant, by the way.) I have no profit motive (not so brilliant, but then, what is my motive, to hold back my fellow audiophile as he tries to achieve audio Nirvana?) I offer an equally valid alternative explanation. You call them enhancements, I call them remediation. You congratulate yourself and pat yourself on the back for being able to hear 'treated' safety pins in the room, while I say, welcome to what the rest of already hear without your safety pin. I also do not need to prey on the insecurities of my fellow audiophile for fiscal gain selling said talismans and potions. I get safety pins for a penny or so each, while other unfortunates pay hundreds of dollars.
This is simply not true! I will gladly visit anyone here who lives within easy driving distance and test them using their own system and their own music collection. We can test replacement AC power cords, tiny magic window dots, CD demagnetizers, blue potions in a bottle, and so forth.
Related, often when believers praise such tweak products, they say how incredibly obvious the improvement is. Typical words are, "I was skeptical at first, but even my wife heard the change from the other room, it was that obvious." So with this in mind, I'd think the believers would be confident enough to hear the difference even at someone else's home with music unfamiliar to them. A proper test goes back and forth several times, so if there really is a meaningful difference, it should be obvious on any system with any source material.
--Ethan
Bring back DUP
Dude, of course you won't hear it, you use a Pioneer 150 dollar receiver!
(Joking......or......not!)
But dood, my Pioneer receiver has excellent specs!
Seriously, I was thinking further about your problem accepting that "normal" specs can tell everything needed about a power amp. You put forth the problem of an amplifier having to drive different frequencies into different loads, which of course is true. But this is the norm, not the exception. Most amplifiers do this routinely, and it's simply not a problem. If an amp can drive 4 Ohms or whatever, and the speaker impedance never dips below that, then it is irrelevant if the impedance is higher at other frequencies. The amplifier just works less driving the higher impedances. Again, I exclude lame boutique devices designed by incompetent pretend engineers. I'm talking about real engineers, the type employed by, um, Pioneer.
--Ethan
_____________________
Bring back DUP
Nothing is happening and it is trivial to prove. All you need to do is rip an untreated CD to a Wave file, treat it, then rip again. If the two Wave files are identical this proves beyond all doubt that nothing changed on the CD and any perceived change is entirely imagined. This is so easy to do I'm amazed - NOT! - that the vendors of such nonsense don't do this test and publish the results. Heck, vendors of other BS like power conditioners, isolation pillows for CD players, and replacement power cords could all do the above and prove for once and for all that their products make a real and audible change to the "1s and 0s" we hear. Of course they never do. Why? First, because their products do nothing and this would reveal it. But just as important, they don't have to! There are plenty of suckers out there who can't discern bogus pseudo-science from real science, and don't even know they've been scammed.
Actually, I believe that deep down, many people do know they were scammed. This is why the believers get so defensive and combative when skeptics pipe up. They know they're wrong, so they just get angry. Sometimes really angry!
--Ethan
____________________
Bring back DUP
Ay, me bucko, but therein lies the rub. I have suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous impedance on many an occasion, and many speakers are not so well behaved as your illustrious Pioneer engineers seem to think!
You've seen JA's impedance curves, they is all over the place!
Ethan, there is more to it than meets your eye!
I'm not advocating special amp cremes for low impedance loads, I am talking about actual performance parameters at those varying loads and how an amp deals with all of them at once.
Your big four don't tell the whole tale - even in the Pioneer engineering lab.
Speakers are Microsoft, and amps are Intel.
Now, perhaps you will rag me out for liking speakers that present difficult loads (maybe it's a case of similars attracting,) but you ought to check a little more into it!
As an additional question, what are the 'big four' of speaker performance?
That's hardly the case, Winer, I belong to a very large group who want to discover more. A group you've chosen not to join because as far as Ethan is concerned, "Hell, I do know everything!"
I would say a blind test is a quite odd suggestion considering your background on this forum with such processes. I'll leave the rest to Frog.
But enough of more about Ethan. You are not the topic of this thread no matter how much you would care to be.
My question is simple enough for Alan to answer even if you disagree with the premise. I am certain Alan has the intelligence to understand the question even if you do not.
It's quite plain, if the problem would appear to be in the 1's and 0's - no matter how improbable that seems - what would you do?
If faced with the improbable or even the impossible that appeared to be true, and someone's life depended upon you resolving the facts of what you know to be "possible", what would you do?
I would very much appreciate an answer, Alan. The question is not long. It doesn't require much reading. Just a simple question that begs an answer.
Yes, Jan is one of a kind.
I can prove that objectively.
I was axing this question to a client at work who is a computer engineer. She understands stuff like how a piece of inert elctronic crap can 'know' what to do with ones and zeroes. Kind of like electronic episthemology.
She told me, as I recall...forgive me for butchering it, but I ax her lots of neophyte questions...
0's and 1's signify electrical current when read. Then the magic begins.
I think one of the two is 50mV current, the other, not.
So, when trying to analyze what is going on with all this digital stuff, we have a reasonably easy measurement job because we can compare current or how, if we like, how well and in which order the 1's and 0's are delivered to a given spot.
She teaches at a local university, but makes her real living working computer engineering stuff for the Air Force, and says that there are readily available ways to compare current or the delivery of 1's and 0's to a given device; which could make the diference between a Predator drone launching a Hellfire missile at Osama or a tall sheep herder.
If we are talking about a claim of enhanced current delivery from one kind of CD vs. another, she says this should be readily accomplishable, in many speheres of data analysis.
I axed her if the Air Force demagnetizes CD's for enhanced data delivery, and she said she'd see if anyone at work had seen anything about it.
Hey, anybody remember cassette erasers?
Was that demagnetization?
I think it was.
What percentage do you think they demagnetized a cassette?
More than 10%?
Maybe we can make some progress by looking at those measurements and addressing the issue of whether or not 'demagnetization' actually took place with the Furutech numbers.
That is very interesting, BUDDHA.
Could she run that data analysis if someone loaned you the demagger ?
Not exactly a blind test. I contend replacing cables or components in ones own system will result in changes to that system that the owner can hear. It might not result in a change perceived by the same person on some other system or music but how one would do a double blind test without the owner of the system being privy to the change is beyond me.
The more often one changes things, the more blurred the listener becomes to the change. When I shift out a cable, I will listen to the system for days with differet music I know, not 10 minutes with one piece of music or so and claim a change or no change. Often I hear nothing on record A but a lot on B.
I cannot prove it to you, I simply hear it and don't really care if the rest of the world not familiar with my gear, room and music does.
I will ax her!
That is a great idea! I'll also ask her what sorts of measurements she thinks would be adequate for the task!
You, sir, are a McGenius! A double McGenius! With fries!
Degaussing, which to my knowledge is not the same as "demagnetization". Degaussing leaves the magnetic patterns is a scrambled state. You can degauss without removing the magnetic properties.
Could we hold the fries ? I'm trying to lose weight so I can drink more.
To prove the theory what we would need to do is fire 100 missiles at a known target ( say Canada ) and then demangentize the data CD, reload the files than fire another 100 missilies and see if they also hit Canada.
This is the only real way of testing, as everyone has already dismissed any technical merit to the 1 & 0's argument we have to realy on a comparison test.
Alan
It would appear Alan has once again demurrred rather than answer a simple question.
Would anyone else care to provide their response to the situation posed - no matter how infeasible you find the question? "I know this cannot happen" is not an answer to the question.
And, Alan, you forgot the phone number for your supervisor.
As far as I can see those on the same side of the discussion as May would include Frog, JIMV, Jason and myself. As far as I can tell none of us have any financial interest in this debate.
What would our non-brilliant motives be? To drag our fellow audiophiles forward into the weakened state you suppose we all exist in?
On the other hand, Ethan would appear to have just as much of a financial interest in this debate as May.
How do you know you hear what we hear? That would seem impossible.
My recollection is this is precisely what Fremer did. Make a CD-R of before and after and then asked for (blind) opinions of the comparison. He got positive responses from those involved if I am not mistaken.
Otherwise, to ask the results be determined by measurements when we are stating that measurements do not show all that is happening is patently absurd.
Interesting comment.
To use measurement as a tool is absurd !!!
Fancy actually want proof !!
Dont you believe the magazines who are funded by the same companies they promote ?
Alan, are you related to the guy over on the "distortion" thread. He can't read either.
Why don't you answer just one of my questions, Alan? Just one. Answer just one and then you won't look like the guy who started a thread thinking he was soooooo smart he wouldn't have to talk to anyone afterwards.
Why don't you answer questions, Alan?
Financial debate by Mr. Winer?? How would this debate affect his profit margins? he sells acoustic treatment products, which are PROVEN to work. They dont have anything to do with the furutech de-moneyizer
Interesting comment.
To use measurement as a tool is absurd !!!
No, I'll tell you what's absurd, Alan. What's absurd is that you started this thread to complain about the Furutech CD demagnetizer, and went so far as to call it "fraud". Then when you were challenged by Jan on your beliefs, you played the appeal to authority game, and ignored his questions to you (which you've kept diong quite dilligently). Then when I came in to challenge your assumptions about the Furutech, asking you to prove your claims to show us that you even understand how it's supposed to work, you ignored me. Then you proceeded to ignore EVERYONE who challenged your assumptions of how it works. Then your friend Ethan came and did all of the above, helping to ensure the topic of this thread does not move forward. Now I hope you finally understand the word "absurd" in its proper context.
As far as I can see those on the same side of the discussion as May would include Frog, JIMV, Jason and myself. As far as I can tell none of us have any financial interest in this debate.
Not entirely. I do. I made a bet with a leading High End Audio Snake Oil Salesman (and I mean he literally sells "snake oil". I think it's used to dampen tonearms, or as contact enhancer, or something, I forget). That being that Ethan and Alan (Welsh hifi), the two geniuses that called the Furutech "fraud", would continue to hide from my main rebuttal to them with every post they made to this thread. Because, after all, it's easy to pretend you're right when you run away from anyone challenging your arguments, and refuse to be proven wrong. What did you call that? "Sticking your head in the sand", I believe.
Nothing is happening and it is trivial to prove. All you need to do is rip an untreated CD to a Wave file, treat it, then rip again. If the two Wave files are identical this proves beyond all doubt that nothing changed on the CD and any perceived change is entirely imagined. This is so easy to do I'm amazed - NOT! - that the vendors of such nonsense don't do this test and publish the results.
Are you supposing the Furutech changes the bitstream, here?
Heck, vendors of other BS like power conditioners, isolation pillows for CD players, and replacement power cords could all do the above and prove for once and for all that their products make a real and audible change to the "1s and 0s" we hear.
So now you're assuming a power cord can change the bitstream. Grand. What else do you figure can change the digital bitstream, Ethan? A new pack of cigarettes? The color purple? Salmon swimming up a river?
Of course they never do. Why? First, because their products do nothing and this would reveal it. But just as important, they don't have to! There are plenty of suckers out there who can't discern bogus pseudo-science from real science, and don't even know they've been scammed.
There are far more "suckers" who can't discern real science from bogus pseudo-science. They're the ones who read Consumer Reports for their audio system research.
Actually, I believe that deep down, many people do know they were scammed. This is why the believers get so defensive and combative when skeptics pipe up. They know they're wrong, so they just get angry. Sometimes really angry!
Aha! So *dat's* why those RealTrap people were threatening me when I told them they could have done the same thing with egg cartons.
This nails it. As soon as someone uses a proper blind test to prove that "demagnetizing" a CD or LP record makes an audible change, I will drive to Stereophile's office in Manhatten, drop trou on the sidewalk in front of their building, and proclaim through a megaphone, "I was totally wrong about everything!"
I will also mail checks for $1,000 each to May, Jan, Frog, and Steve Sammet.
I really wish you would stop writing checks with your mouth that you have no intention of coming through on. It's lost its polish, Ethan. We've already seen that your bravado means nothing, after all the excuses you made to weasel out of the blind test I challenged you on, last summer.
And no matter what I say, you refuse to learn, or consider any viewpoint but your own that you arrived at by intuition.
Sorry to say chap, that's been YOU during this entire thread. No matter what I or anyone has said to you about the Furutech, you refuse to learn or consider any viewpoint but your own. That you arrived at by intuition.
This is simply not true! I will gladly visit anyone here who lives within easy driving distance and test them using their own system and their own music collection. We can test replacement AC power cords, tiny magic window dots, CD demagnetizers, blue potions in a bottle, and so forth.
Yeah, right. "Anyone". That is, "anyone", unless it happens to be someone who's name you can't find in the yellow pages. LOL!
Related, often when believers praise such tweak products, they say how incredibly obvious the improvement is. Typical words are, "I was skeptical at first, but even my wife heard the change from the other room, it was that obvious." So with this in mind, I'd think the believers would be confident enough to hear the difference even at someone else's home with music unfamiliar to them. A proper test goes back and forth several times, so if there really is a meaningful difference, it should be obvious on any system with any source material.
I agree with the last line; I do my tests on any system with any source material. But that doesn't mean I actually think YOU would be able to pass an audio test with flying colors, on any system with any source material. I'm sure you just meant that OTHERS should be able to do that. That I don't agree with. Many audiophiles require weeks to determine whether a change is real or not. We don't all have the same degree of listening skill. You've proven that by saying cables all sound the same.
May, please.
Putting your products in the same category as Furutech's is wrapping yourself in the flag.
Well then I guess I'm also guilty of "wrapping myself in the flag", whatever that's supposed to mean. A long time ago, I put the Furutech demag UFO on my website, because I considered it in the same category as May's products. That category being what I call "advanced audio products". You may know them as "controversial products" or "snake oil" or whatever.
Don't blame me, Stereophile started it!
You'd better sit down for this one, Buddha: Stereophile act like idiots sometimes. Yes, that includes the venerable JGH. They go out of their way to attack fringe products (that don't or can't advertise in their pages), in order to garner more "respect" for their editorial byline, keeping them from being classified as too "out there", and it may just be what the majority of their audience wants to see. Why else would anyone hire someone like Jim Austin to write for a high end audio magazine? I did a piece on my site regarding what I think of JGH's "work" on that shoddy piece of bogus journalsim you referenced.
As to this other part, we are just looking at the same phenomenon from different angles: "...then going on to suggest that if so many people can HEAR improvements in their sound, then it must be because they are "primitive audiophiles, unable to sit and relax and really 'hear' their systems without the aid of certain potions and elixirs (or props, talismen, rituals)."
Each explanation is equally valid. Both are un-disprovable. You think audiophiles are inherently defective and need listening aids - inventing a problem for which you sell the cure. (Brilliant, by the way.)
I don't know if you realize this, but you just described the entire high end audio industry, as well as most audiophiles. Of which you are part of.
I have no profit motive (not so brilliant, but then, what is my motive, to hold back my fellow audiophile as he tries to achieve audio Nirvana?) I offer an equally valid alternative explanation. You call them enhancements, I call them remediation.
This again (rolls eyes). Look up "Argumentum ad hominem" to find the fatal flaw in your reasoning. You could say the same of anyone on this board, and we could say the same of you. Particularly since you once talked about producing your own tweak products. This is why your argumentum ad hominem doesn't work, deserves to be dismissed out of hand, and should not be used in the first place. Bottom line on this argument is, *motive means nothing in this context*. We don't know what your motives are. Maybe you do have a profit motive. Maybe the reason you appear to have such a giant chip on your shoulder here, is because JGH is paying you by the word to attack the character of May Belt. We don't know whether that's true.
Last I checked, May's company does not produce Furutech demagnetizers. But even if it did, that doesn't mean what a company spokesperson says about their product should be eliminated for consideration, simply because they may have a profit motive. What they say could well be true. As well, just because someone doesn't have an obvious profit motive, or a hidden agenda (like say, holding back their fellow audiophiles), that doesn't mean that what THEY say isn't pure unfiltered bullshit. After I started reading the Stereophile forums, I had to do a special order from Japan, and buy myself a special new BS meter, that goes up to 13 (all others only go up to '10'). This was after I met Ethan, and his endless reams of BS kept breaking my damn meters. And I swear, I believe his motive -is- to hold back his fellow audiophiles as they try to reach audio Nirvana - even though he may not have this as a conscious goal. So beside being argumentum ad hominem, it's just plain ludicrous to argue that you can or even should judge what one says in a discussion forum based on whatever prejudices you happen to have regarding possible "motives", rather than just try to argue against what they're actually saying.
You congratulate yourself and pat yourself on the back for being able to hear 'treated' safety pins in the room, while I say, welcome to what the rest of already hear without your safety pin. I also do not need to prey on the insecurities of my fellow audiophile for fiscal gain selling said talismans and potions.
By the way, this notion of yours that those who do not have good audio gear do not require it; that they benefit just as well as those that do, I admit, it's a nice dream. One that the Ethans of the world, with their Pioneer sh*tboxes, are currently living as we speak. I don't know what kind of drugs you need to take, or what combination they ought to be in, in order to realize this dream of not requiring quality audio goods to obtain the same degree of sound quality as those that have it.
But I know that has never worked for me. I've always been limited by reality. And let me tell you, having to spend thousands of dollars on quality audio gear, that's a pretty hard reality. Life would be SO much easier if I could just trot down to K-mart, get the $79 plasticrap all-in-one combo special, knowing it would sound as good as my hifi neighbour with the Primare amp and the dynaudios, and I wouldn't have to lift a finger to ever get better sound, because that would be physically impossible. I would already be hearing as good sound as anyone, no matter what they had or did to their system. I don't personally know anyone who has found this particular backroad to Nirvana, but maybe this is the way it is in heaven. Wouldn't that mean you have to be dead first?
I get safety pins for a penny or so each, while other unfortunates pay hundreds of dollars.
Except your safety pins don't do diddley. I know, I've got a whole box of them. They look just like May's treated pin. I also have one of those treated pins (and no, it don't cost hundreds of dollars, but let's not complicate things with facts). I once had someone test me using both the treated and untreated pin on the label of my t-shirt. It was a causal SBT, but in any case, I identified the treated pin as being easily superior, 12 out of 15 times. Make of that what you will, I don't care what you choose to make of it. I'm just saying you're using all of your biases and prejudices to determine the truth. It's your prerogative, but if you claim to be on the side of science, know that there's nothing at all scientific about that.
Maybe we can make some progress by looking at those measurements and addressing the issue of whether or not 'demagnetization' actually took place with the Furutech numbers.
Waste of time. You're comparing apples with oranges.
While I haven't taken a hard look at what the Furutech is or isn't doing (though I'm willing to debate this), unlike you and the rest, I don't dismiss what May suggested regarding polarization (she knows a lot about how it affects audio). I know a little myself, because I did some of my own experiments with that. I did another such experiment today with poles, but it had nothing to do with demagnetization. It had to do with me installing a light fixture at a friend's house, and a light switch (dimmer type). While I had the switch box open, and since the wires were old and not clearly marked, I did not know which was black, which was white. So since it could go either way, I decided to wire the switch according to how it affected the sound of the audio systems in the house. (I should probably explain here that I had discovered quite some time ago at my own place, that house wiring affects perceived sound). So I was I working on what I already knew, plus it was a way for me to reconfirm the effect I had observed once before. Since the electricity was off, I could not use the audio system to test, so I looked around for an mp3 player, and found a noname Chinese ipod to use as the test system, plus some dirt cheap Maxell ear-bud phones, who's wire I had to bend, to get both channels working! (Making matters worse, there were only 3 songs on the player, and the only one suitable for testing, was some crappy French song I didn't care for). Neverthless, I was able to perceive a superior, more musical rendition of that song, every time the wiring went a certain way. And yeah, I'd say it was repeatable. But not that knowable, and even less believable. (as far as I know, I'm the only one who's observed it). So I've seen enough to know, that if the Furutech at all does what it claims to do, I'd be surprised if it didn't affect that aspect of a disc.
ncdrawl, you amaze me. You have spent more time defending Winer than you have spent answering questions put to you. Of course, that wouldn't be difficult since you and all the others on your side have spent no time what so ever answering any questions put to you!
Once again the allure of easy cyncism has its way with another easy mark. You must be a piss poor gambler.
If you mean by "PROVEN" that what Ethan sells has been proven to also kill the sound of the music along with the reflections of the room, well, there I would agree with you, ncdrawl. The question then becomes, do you want some Yahoo with a SPL meter to kill your sound all the while telling you how good his products are at doing their job - in fact they're PROVEN to do their job! Not sure I do.
Winer poses on many forums as the professional "Uber-Cynic". You can see here on this forum that he puts substantial amounts of time into this portion of his job and this is just one of the many forums Winer posts on with the same simple blather.
How much of your day is spent on this forum, ncdrawl? How much of Ethan's time do you think he spends here? More than you? And this is just one of the many forums where he posts? You don't think this has become part of his job?
He is against all things contrary to the easy cynics' way of thinking. He spends hours of each day preying on the simple minded - perception follows the measurements crowd - just as Buddha suggests May is scheming to take from those whom Buddha sees as weak and in need of propping up. This is the most effective free advertising Winer can afford. Did you ever read the ad copy in RealTraps' ads? The "satisfied customer" always sounds like somebody out of a Skoal commercial. "I lke RealTraps a whole bunch. And that Ethan feller, he's good too. He showed me measurements what says his products are not responsible for my mouth cancer."
Did I not see on another thread where you, ncdrawl, used to hear differences between products and cables and such? But then you performerd the measurements and you decided the measurements were right and you were wrong and now I assume you cannot hear as well as you used to because you believe the measurements don't lie. But how do you know you performed the right measurements? You performed the measurements you knew from your existing warehouse of what you know. When confornted with something you didn't understand you did what was safe and what you knew. Like Ethan tells you to do, you did what was safe, you wrapped yourself in a security blanket - which Ethan is happy to sell you to promote his own products. When what you saw didn't prove what you were perceiving was right, it was easier to go with what you already knew than to stop and think from the result to why there must not be measurements that show what you are hearing. Thinking from the "result" to the "why" is what gets you "scientific" thinkers and all like you.
Brilliant! Simply brilliant. You win the Acme Rocket RoadRunner Catcher Award for the season.
Knocking down one "snake oil" product is effective in knocking down all snake oil products to the easy cynics like you. Ethan plays to the cheap seats and, as we've seen, there are incredible numbers of people who are willing to cry snake oil when they can't find a number that satisfies them or when they are confronted with something outside their comfort zone but not too many who will actually defend their cries of "fraud" by answering a few simple questions.
(I notice no one has taken me up on my last question about being faced with what they consider the impossible. Have you seen an answer to that question, ncdrawl? I surely haven't. Why don't you give it a try, ncdrawl, rather than sitting on your haunches defending someone who would surely throw you under the bus just as fast as Joe the Plumber shoved McCain. Let it be noted that Fresh Clip showed up here on about page 15 of this novella, said, "Aluminum can't be magnetized", and has since disappeared never to be heard from or to answer any questions since. Brilliant! )
And those easy cynics rely on Ethan - hell, like you they even defend Winer when he avoids those simple questions of "what if" because he always provides the zinger they wish they could come up with, he always returns them to their safe little burrow - the measurements. Ethan sells security blankets on every forum he visitis. That is financial gain, ncdrwawl.
Therefore, as the professional "Uber-Cynic", Ethan's job is to spend more time on these forums insulting the intelligence of others than it is to actually say anything that matters.
At least May posts intelligent remarks - which go unnoticed by Ethan other than to hurl a few more insults her way.
Now, since I know you just skipped to the last sentence because reading everything I posted is too much effort * , here's the thing for you to do, ncdrawl. Forget about defending Ethan on this thread. This thread is not about Ethan and you're wasting your time and ours making it about how you think everyone is against Ethan. We are not against Ethan. We are against the easy, cynical BS he sells on this and a dozen other forums.
You've had your moment of easy cynicism, how about answering some questions that have been ignored by your side for the last twenty pages of this thread?
* Doubt that, ncdrawl? Frog and I proved it to be true a few pages back when we posted our thoughts into an already existing post of some length. What do you think happened, ncdrawl? Only one person from your side caught what was going on! And that was after the third time the same post had been copied. It was just too long for your side to think about so you all just ignored it just as you have ignored all the questions from this side.
Brilliant, simply brilliant! I'm putting your name in to Acme for a special award just for that one.
Yes, but all that matters is how well an amplifier can drive the lowest impedance presented. Whether the impedance is higher at other frequencies is irrelevant. I already explained this, no? So just buy a nice 500 watt Crown etc that is happy driving 2 Ohms. End of story.
If there is more, you've done a pretty lousy job of describing what "else" there is!
Woo hoo, Buddha acknowledges that "performance parameters" are indeed what matters.
Not at all! Loudspeakers are a perfect example of where the Mighty Four parameters are especially difficult to assess. So it's rare for me to tell someone that their choice of speaker is lame. I usually reserve speaker criticism for Bose and other such single driver models.
Exactly the same, of course. But as I said above it's more complicated because speakers, being mechanical, have many driver and cabinet resonances and other anomalies. And the frequency response varies all over the place both on- and off-axis. All the same parameters apply! But there are many more variables and things to take into account when measuring speakers. Versus amps and preamps that are trivial to measure, and where measurements do indeed tell you everything needed.
--Ethan
I'd do it literally blind - as in you are blindfolded. Or I'd run two sets of wires behind your speakers, ask you to leave the room, and you'd see both sets of wires but not know which is connected at the time. And so forth.
Look wise guy, stop waffling - can you hear the change or not?
--Ethan
___________________
Bring back DUP
LOL, I can't believe nobody else picked up on this and commented.
--Ethan
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Bring back DUP
Jan, are you serious?? I dont care how Mr. Winer presents it...I knew about room treatments before I knew of him.. Id dare say that most, if not all recording industry professionals are aware of how important it is to acoustically treat a room, whether it be for recording, listening, mixing, mastering."Kills the music" --Jesus, God Almighty, Jan.. I thought you had more sense than that. boy, that is rich.
oh, and I do not own any of Mr. Winer's products, btw. (although I plan on investing in some when I build the new place)
LOL, Jan's lack of knowledge just gets more and more obvious.
As I understand it, Jan's "stereo system" consists of a flea-power toob amp, loudspeakers with a single small midrange driver (no woofer, no tweeter), with 30 gauge magnet wire between the amp and speakers. Jan, if this is not correct please accept my apologies and clarify your system. Otherwise, I think this pretty well sums up Jan's expertise with audio and hi-fi.
BTW, I'd kill to see photos of The Frog's hi-fi.
--Ethan
____________________
Bring back DUP
Why on Earth would you disparage Jan's system?
I bet you'd sit down, litsen to it, secretly like it, then try to play music you know would not fit it it, and then have a a party describiing what it didn't do, without a passing mention of the aspects of sound that Jan chose it for.
You'd turn into Borat in Jan's listening room.
Hi Nc,
Quite easy NC. Professional marketers extensively study spending patterns in any given area and attempt to steer the money to their product. Afterall, there is only so much capital to spend. In the audio arena, and Ethan's case, it is to change the spending patterns towards his company and less to other areas of audio, such as electronics etc. Less dollars spent in electronics means more money for him to attract. To accomplish this, one has only to criticize all other areas of audio. Any novice can pretend to be an expert using this tatic. The only problem is Ethan has been constantly caught with his deceptions, misleading comments, fake graphs, and yet again his lack of understanding of even basic electronics, and poor design capabilities.
Notice, he always wishes for others to prove something so he can always find fault. Pretty easy marketing job, let the others do the work and simply criticize it. He will never test himself (even at $40.00 for caps) because this would open the "barn door" to other products. His marketing scheme is simply to criticize others and place doubts in viewers minds.
Winer:
Hey, "wise guy"
, we just caught you listing your horrible U47 mic preamp as a reference, and it measures crap, horrible frequency response (see earlier post) and super high distortion. (I can easily supply more details if you wish.) Palming it off as a good design to the unsuspecting is bad enough, but you obviously cannot even make rudimentary measurements, let alone design something even average.
Again, with the mic preamp, as many times before, you demonstrate your total lack of even basic electronics. First you fake graphs, now mislead people concerning your preamplifier. It is guys like you that give audio a bad name.
Jimv, what you experienced when comparing is called Habituation to Stimuli and has been known for along time in the medical community. Here is a link from Wikipedia giving a general discription.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habituation
If one ABs two different audio signals several times, habituation to stimuli phenomonen causes the two different sounds to be perceived the same even though they sounded quite different at the beginning. However, this is not real world as one does not listen nor compare components 20 times in one session, as at the store. It is too bad some in the electronics community will not accept what other disciplines understand.
Jan, degaussing is demagnetazion as it is performed on TVs with picture tubes.
So yet more Ethan Winer scams on the unsuspecting public.
What flavor is the KoolAid, ncdrawl? I think Jones used Orange Punch.
So where are your answers, son? Another missed opportunity?
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