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Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Thank you, May, for bringing this back out of the ditch. Quite a post you've done there! Do you think anyone will respond or was your post too long for them? How much they have to read seems to always be a sticking point in these "discussions".

"Polarities" and "Electrets"! OK, I was ready to play with some pidgeons but I wasn't ready to jump into that end of the pool. Now I've got to swim or at least tread water. Do you have any more information on this thinking?

Then, I wonder if you might address this thought also. You say, "But you CAN change the SOUND by doing any of those things - AND create better height in the music, better width, better depth, better separation of instruments, better definition etc and this is EXACTLY what numerous people have been reporting !!!!! From EXACTLY the SAME digital information on the disc !!"

I know all those who have been protesting will take this as an insult and it is not meant that way but ...

What if someone simply doesn't perceive those qualities? What if height, depth, separation, etc. means nothing to them? This has been my experience with many clients over the years, they do not hear those qualities that I and others hear that define for me - and others - the differing nature and quality of a component's performance. I have seen many a clinet of mine and other salespeople who has chased the "perfect sound" for years and invested enormous amounts of time and cash into securing what they believe is being described in the magazines. Each new component brought them more frustration rather than more happiness. Finally, the day comes when they have invested too much and heard too little and they decide it is all a sham. Every one of them has gone back to the extreme of a $150 receiver or a $400 power amp being all that's required by them for good sound.

I've never had a problem with this if that is how they prefer to listen. What I've had a problem with is their insistence that we all get dragged back into the bushes with them. They cannot get over the idea someone else might actually be hearing the qualities they describe.

Like I said, this is not meant as an insult but it is what I have seen happen more than a few times.

I don't know these people on this forum well enough to say that is what has happened but the more they say, the more they sound like each client I had who gave up in frustration. They all fell back to relying on machines to tell them what to believe and they all fell back to everyone being dishonest if they could not hear what was being described.

Many of them were technicians, engineers, designers, etc. who had the machines to prove to themself they could not hear what they wanted. Many of them were musicians who would choose an instrument not for the wood or metal used in construction but the way a single, individual, inanimate instrument played in their hands or an amplifier sounded in the studio. But they denied the same qualities when it came to home audio.

And then the arguments started and the accusations flew. The ones who started every thread or conversation with an accusation of dishonesty were the easiest to spot for what they heard and what they did not.

I can only guess they will never hear "Electrets" and "Polarites" and the effect they might have.


Quote:
The fact that they can hear improvements from a digitally encoded disc must be as incomprehensible to them as it is to Welsh Hi Fi and Ethan !! But, having tried that particular technique, they are prepared to describe to others what they have heard !!

And, somehow, I suspect those people who have heard the difference are not as shy about admitting what they perceive as some others might be and not as influenced by what cannot be possible.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


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And with that ,Frog, I will put you on ignore. I have lived too long to waste my time with illogical people like you and JV who think they are more intelligent than they are.

How's it go?

!

I rest my case.

SAS Audio
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Hi Jan and Michigan,

Even after I disproved Ethan's comment about only 4 parameters, he is still pushing it. He simply changes his position and suddenly audio test equipment can now measure DA, in fact everything. (By the way, the DA for electrolytics is approx 46 to 28db down. Polyprops approx 74db down, voltage db. Power db figure 1/2 those figures, or 14-23db and 37db down.)

Problem is, how can Ethan change his position? Pretty simple. He did not perform any testing.

In an earlier post, Ethan's position was that all capacitors sound alike; thus audio test equipment could not measure any DA, 120db down. If no DA measured, then no difference in sound.

In this string, the subject changes to the "4 parameters" do they measure everything? His position now changes to 'audio test equipment measures everything'.

So Ethan never actually measured anything. Here is a good example of one who changes his position depending upon the subject to push his "beliefs".

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Frog

Why dont you just admit you have no idea how they work ?

I am fully aware of demagnetizers, im saying they dont work on plastic.

Im sure you can write a 5000 word response of how im stupid and dont comprehend. It would be nice however if you could actually state some facts in your defence instead of just attacking the clarity of vision that other people have compared to your rose tinted view of life.

Alan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Frog

Why dont you just admit you have no idea how they work ?

I am fully aware of demagnetizers, im saying they dont work on plastic.

Im sure you can write a 5000 word response of how im stupid and dont comprehend. It would be nice however if you could actually state some facts in your defence instead of just attacking the clarity of vision that other people have compared to your rose tinted view of life.

Alan

Hi Alan,

I don't mean to but in, just wanted to help out, and I am not taking sides. I believe some have mentioned impurities in the aluminum which includes iron etc, which of course does magnetized.

Anyway, I don't mean to interfere, but thought this might help reduce tensions.

Take care Alan.
Steve

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

May

A digital signal has no sound quality.

I know that very few people here actually understand that, the thing is that these people are basing their opinions on a variety of snake oil products.

Binary information does not have any quality at all, it is either 1 or 0. These signals so not have imagery, depth, bass or any other musical analogy they are either on or off.

Why does everyone have so much trouble with this simple finite technical statement.

Alan

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

OK, you're just not going to answer any questions or deal with anyone's claims. You will only work with the knowledge you had before you arrived here and any response will be based only on what you already know of digital communications. Nothing more. You will allow for no new information to come into the discussion.

If you had said you wouldn't take questions or give credence to anyone's words at the very beginning, Alan, this thread could have been much shorter.

I have two questions I do hope you'll answer though my hopes aren't high that I'll get a decent response.

First, I'll play the digital idiot you prefer me to be.

What are the 1's and 0's, Alan?

Second, did you actually go back and read Frog's first post?

If you don't want to answer either question, please say so and just drop out.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

It's no use, Steve. Nothing we have said or asked will be addressed. Alan knows what he knows, he doesn't want to know anything else and, if you shake him too hard, he'll only revert to that bit of information.

Makes a discussion kind of difficult when one side is not being heard.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Interestingly, the "Handbook of Aluminum" states aluminum purity in this application at 99.9999%.

With potentially magnetic impurities (among the ten identified products) limited to iron at an additional 0.00001%.

Just to put the discussion about those 'impurities' in context.

So, even if we start spinning that magnetic CD, over the laser read distance, would this 'magnetism' be capable of affecting the digital data interpretation? If so, you'd think that would be easily measurable in terms of data and timing.

Of course, the ability to measure a result is paramount to objectivists and anathema to subjectivists. So, what are ya gonna do?

Any homeopaths here?

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Interestingly, the "Handbook of Aluminum" states aluminum purity in this application at 99.9999%.

With potentially magnetic impurities (among the ten identified products) limited to iron at an additional 0.0001%.

Yeah, but those "Handbook of Aluminum" measurements can't tell me how I feel about my aluminum.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Any homeopaths here?

Oh, for goodness sake, don't get that debate started again!

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


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Yeah, but those "Handbook of Aluminum" measurements can't tell me how I feel about my aluminum.

andyc, please keep up with the disussion.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

andyc, please keep up with the disussion.

Jan, I'm glad to see you're not taking what I said too seriously.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

You have made numerous incorrect assumptions about my viewpoint, Frog.

I was just returning the compliment, after you did that with me. You're welcome.

You are the one making ad hominem attacks on most everyone you assume doesn't agree with you.

Right. Of course. So by this you're saying I'm the one who called myself a "hifi-snob"? LOL! And I suppose I also called myself an "Ultrafidelista' or a "TV lawyer"?! What else did I do while I was carrying on these ad hominem attacks against myself, flog myself 30 times in the back?

I don't have a current opinion on the furutech device , I haven't heard it. Furetechs explanation of the device leaves me somewhat skeptical but if someone wants to bring one to my house I would be willing to give it a try.

Yes, with you being so gracious as to open your door to them, I'm sure Furutech will be falling all over themselves to have the privilege to personally do a demonstration in your skeptical home. And when they do, please, don't feel obligated to buy one, even if it does float your boat.

My dealer friend is going to bring over a 30,000 odin power cord and I am happy to listen to that also.

I am happy for the both of you. Thank you for sharing.

And with that ,Frog, I will put you on ignore. I have lived too long to waste my time with illogical people like you and JV

LOL! You just named the only two people in this thread who have shown any interest in discussing logic re: the Furutech devices - whilst you and the rest have only added pointless ad hominems or off-topic matter. The only two who have been trying to debate the skeptics unfounded claims, and insisting that facts be represented. And one of the only ones who have even attempted intelligent, in-depth contributions to this thread. Good one! At least I won't be bothered by your pointless intrudes into this thread, that have added absolutely nothing to this discussion. So thanks for that small mercy.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Ethan Winer wrote:

>>> "Likewise for demagnetizing CDs and LP records, the subject of this thread. Unless the heads of Furutech are idiots, which I doubt, all that's left is dishonesty. So all they can do is reject standard testing and claim there's more to it than "science" knows." <<<

Of course, you're forgetting the other possibility here: you're the idiot, and the "dishonesty" is all yours. Of that, I'm talking about the intellectual dishonesty you have shown here, by refusing to respond to my first post in this thread, which countered your pitiful claims against the Furutech devices. As well as refusing to respond to my science questions to you, to see how well you even understood the principles of magnetism (your avoidance of that as well proves that evidently, you don't). So if I've got this straight, the story is, you got your back up about the Furutech devices, two audio-based demagnetizers you have apparently never even laid eyes on let alone tried. You know nothing true about them, and what little you "think" you know about them, you are wrong about. Then working on this blatant ignorance of yours, you wrote a letter to the CES accusing Furutech of no less than "fraud", and instead of your incurable foolishness stopping there, you even went so far as to insinuate to the CES that they have been complicit of fraud, by not exposing the "fraud" perpetrated by Furutech.

Yah.... so tell me Ethan.... how well did that go?

And aren't you stepping on James Randi's toes just a bit? Wasn't he the designated fool for the Anti-hifi Industry Truth Squad? I thought all you pathological skeptics had to agree on that, or something.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Frog
Why dont you just admit you have no idea how they work ?

No, the question should be, why don't YOU, since you're the one who started out making a false claim about them (they "demagnetize plastic"). You would never do that though, would you? Just like Ethan, you grin and smile through your obvious ignorance, you'll argue til the cows come home, BUT NEVER EVER WILL YOU ACTUALLY ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG ALL ALONG.

I am fully aware of demagnetizers, im saying they dont work on plastic.

Tell me, are you hard of hearing or hard of reading? How many times are you going to repeat that fallacious claim? How many times do I have to respond to you, to say what part of "where did Furutech claim they did" do you not understand? How can I dumb that down for you any further, you tell me? Well look, I'm not gonna play ring around the rosy with you any longer. Either you show me where they made that claim, or stop making it. And you're also going to need to look up what a "strawman" is, so you can avoid repeating that as well.


Im sure you can write a 5000 word response of how im stupid and dont comprehend.

And I'm equally sure it would change nothing in either how dumb you've demonstrated yourself to be in this thread, or how little you would comprehend what's being said to you. Anyhow, I don't need to write that 5,000 word proof. This is evidenced by your responses, and lack of response. Your intellectual faiblesse was made no clearer than when you insisted that you would not read his arguments against yours, until Jan reduce his counterpoints to a smaller portion that wouldn't make your head spin so hard. Then when he did, Jan predicted you would say they were still too long for you to read, and so added that you could take on any or as many of the questions you said he needed to ask you. But of course, you refused to debate any of his questions, dismissing his entire response as too long and difficult for you to respond to. That's about the time that I had enough of your absurd posturing and wasting of people's time. Like Jan, I don't really see what you're doing here myself, if you're too impotent to support your own attacks against the Furutech device, or arguments against your bogus claims. Especially since YOU started this thread, and YOU are the one to first call it "extreme snake oil".

It would be nice however if you could actually state some facts in your defence instead of just attacking the clarity of vision that other people have compared to your rose tinted view of life.

Actually, it'd be nice if YOU could actually state some facts in your defence, since you have thus far stated absolutely NONE. You have ZERO idea how the machines work, how they are supposed to work, or whether they work. And this despite the fact that I already tried to educate you on that, with actual facts! You even went so far as to say you are not going to do any research to find out any facts! Brilliant. You must be the leader of Ethan's "Pro Audio Community Truth Squad", that "ncdrawl" referred to. As for me, I already did state a whole slew of facts on the subject the moment I came here. And I'm saying that for the 51st time. Once again, you failed to respond to it, apparently because as you explained to us, 7 words is already your upper limit as far as your reading comprehension or attention span goes. You're never going to get a 7 word debate out of me, so maybe you should query some monkeys to have them explain the failings of your arguments against the Furutech devices to you. Or at least how its supposed to work.

Let it be noted, for the record, that Jan was fully able to read and understand that response of mine explaining the Furutech, and he even wrote a response telling you to respond. Which you promptly ignored, just like you ignored me telling you to respond to my counterpoints. So it sounds to me like you're just playing a game, whereby you have no interest in debating anything, and every interest in pretending you do, while you struggle to avoid debating anything. Say, there's another trait you share in common with EW. LOL! Tell him from me that he should make you captain of the Anti-Extreme Snake Oil Truth Squad.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

That's what I've been hinting at, all this time. That there are MANY ways to change the digital based sound of CD players. Alas, the skeptics have yet to realize this. For me, this is a really, really old argument, this "bits is bits" position. I've been debating it for more than 20 years, with people who thought then that "there is only 1 and 0 and that's all there is!", and that there's no way you could change the sound you hear from a CD unit, because it's all somehow frozen on the disc itself. And still think that now, I see! Ugh.

The real tragedy of this, is that it's the 'bits is bits' minds like these, that have not just done nothing to progress the industry, but would keep it from progressing. After all, folks of this same mindset were callling the CD "perfect sound forever" back in the 80's, and arguing against any and every one who claimed that CD's sound was horrible, and did not jump on the CD bandwagon. They're the people who were mocking those claiming their LP12's were superior to any digital technology CD player. If you claim perfect sound, then you surely won't try to improve on it.

Nevertheless, the "perfect sound" was improved upon, once agreed it could be. Yet, enslaved by their theories, some skeptics still believe that 16 bit digital is all we need, and anything above that is overkill. Despite the "overkill", others never stopped criticizing digital sound for having a "digital sound quality" (not a compliment, as marketing depts. would have you think). Those critics were of course written off by the usual naysayers as being misguided as to the truth of the recording, and beguiled by "euphonic distortions". Then someone discovered that wait a second, the EC circuits themselves had a negative influence on digital sound. Suddenly that explained what a lot of digital critics have been saying all along.

By any refined standard, this technology still has a ways to go; if not a long ways. It isn't leaden-eared skeptics arguing that there are no more numbers between 1 and 0 that are going to advance it. It's those who can see a bit further than 1 and 0. At all the many things that can influence sound you get from a cd unit; including digital technology, including analogue technology, including Beltian technology, including advancements to the electrical current, and so on.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

As the attack dogs circle more and more tightly around this thread, would their owners please reveal their brand logos. It would help us separate the audio industry stakeholders from those of us who are plain old hobbyists. Ethan Winer has not withheld his professional ties to the business: methinks others are here in disguise.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Frog

Heres the problem, you associate sound quality with the 1 & 0's.

What im saying is that there are vast influences on the signal once it has left the CD, clock,s DAC's, jitter, power supply etc.

What doesnt sink in is that the original 1 or 0 can only possibly have two states, there is nothing inbetween and no way that you can have different forms of 1's or 0's.

The format of the binary can be 16 bit, DSD, PCM, whatever and all these also have an influence.

The base starting point of any CD is still the 1&0's, there is no way these can be influenced to sound different. This is not a statement of opinion, its fact.

Alan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
DUP is gone, only to be replaced by visitors from planet Windbag.

Given a choice, I'll take DUP over the visitors. At least he was entertaining at times and he had a point.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Even after I disproved Ethan's comment about only 4 parameters, he is still pushing it. He simply changes his position and suddenly audio test equipment can now measure DA, in fact everything. (By the way, the DA for electrolytics is approx 46 to 28db down. Polyprops approx 74db down, voltage db. Power db figure 1/2 those figures, or 14-23db and 37db down.)

Problem is, how can Ethan change his position? Pretty simple. He did not perform any testing.

Wow, you mean Ethan hasn't put Black Gate out of business yet, with his "everything sounds the same and I've measured it so you're a technically ignorant fool if you think otherwise" preaching? Personally, I'm shocked. I doubt if Ethan really does much testing at all; anywhere as much as he talks about it. You might be surprised how many objectivist extremists advocate testing they rarely actually do.

In an earlier post, Ethan's position was that all capacitors sound alike; thus audio test equipment could not measure any DA, 120db down. If no DA measured, then no difference in sound.

In this string, the subject changes to the "4 parameters" do they measure everything? His position now changes to 'audio test equipment measures everything'.

LOL! He's so sorrily mistaken, that I don't even know where to begin with that one. I suppose I could start with the fact that Ethan's ignorant position violates the scientific range rule, in dismissing measurements that accomodate psychoacoustic principles; and could not possibly result in any sort of valid conclusions about the sound of a component. Not only does Ethan not know what to measure (and there are hundreds of things that could be measured), he doesn't know how to measure it; let alone have the equipment to do so. So he just sticks with what he knows, which is 4 (well, at the beginning I recall it was 3!) factors, and apparently, according to this audio genius (who never did describe the components he claimed to have designed, did he?), everything you need to know about how a component will sound can be measured at the speaker terminals.

No kidding he thinks all working audio components are about the same. If you are basing your understanding on a small fraction of the actual behaviour of an electronic component, and its influence on reproducing music, you are unlikely to find anything problematic within that very small sampling. And since your misguided beliefs cause you to dismiss anything outside of that small sampling, you can feel confident (in fooling yourself) that everything sounds the same. And no wonder Ethan even dismisses musical values, when all audiophiles begin to describe what they hear. He doesn't understand any of it, because it doesn't fit with his beliefs and his limited understanding of audio. As a result, he is completely deaf to the language that audiophiles use in describing the different music-reproducing aspects of electronic components. Given all this, I can fully appreciate why his best amps are Crown, and his best speakers are JBL's, and his main amp is a Pioneer. (Not sure what he's doing on Stereophile's site though, maybe someone else can answer that for me? Doesn't Sound & Vision have forums?).

It's like someone born without a nose. His olfactories are going to be quite impaired, let's say. But he considers himself a "foodie", and Lord don't cha know, fancies himself something of a culinary eggspert in the kitchen. He's done all the tests he needs to do on one type of truffle with another and he'll tell you with all the conviction of a fire & brimstone preacher, they all taste no different than a common white button mushroom. Which itself tastes no different than white bread, or mattress foam. You see, he can't smell anything, so he relies on whatever tools and knowledge he has to understand the world around him, in his little kitchen.

This is Ethan in a nutshell. That amplifier he allegedly designed? I think we can assume it did not advance the state of the art! Ethan's knowledge of audio will always be limited by his extremely limited knowledge and limiting beliefs about audio science. If people want to limit themselves like this, I have no problem with that. They can be happy with their little pioneer amps, or JBL cracker boxes, Technosonic cd players, all wired up with lamp cord and coat hangers and plugged into dollar store power bars. It's when they start preaching this nonsense, arguing with those who know better, and spreading their ignorance toward those who don't, that I take exception to.

So Ethan never actually measured anything. Here is a good example of one who changes his position depending upon the subject to push his "beliefs".

Yeah, that's the nail right on the head. I want you to know that Ethan is nothing new in this world. I've debated countless so-called "objectivist" skeptics like him; they all tend to blur after a while, and sound completely alike. So I've run across what you have with Ethan, many many times before. This phenomenon where "TrVth be damned", no the important thing in the arena of audio argument (you could only loosely call it "debate"), is for the "debater" to be right. If this means changing his position, then so be it! If this means realizing he was proven wrong, and then pretending he agreed with you all this time, so be it! It's an ego game, that's all it is for people like EW. When was the last time you ever saw Ethan say "Oh, I didn't know that. I guess I was wrong". Even just the word "wrong" would have a hard time passing his lips, in talking about himself. There's a kind of disconnect that often happens with pro audio guys; cognitive dissonance. It's as though their entire identity and being is wrapped up in their beliefs. So if they're threatened at their very core by any contradicting POV that shatters what they have always known, it's like taking away baby's security blanket. It kind of all takes the fun out of audio, if you ask me.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Frog
Heres the problem, you associate sound quality with the 1 & 0's.

Er no, you're still very much confused, as that has been YOUR position. I'm the one saying there are vast influences on the signal, apart from what was burned on the substrate. You're the one who's been saying it's all 1's and 0's, nothing can have an effect on that. BTW I'm well aware of clocks, DACs, jitter boxes, power supplies... since I have all that stuff in my system. But you're losing the plot again, friend. What does any of that have to do with the Furutech? Remember the Furrytech? That little $2,000 dollar CD demagnetizer you were ranting about at the top of this thread? Do you realize you have yet to answer for ANY of your previous positions on it?

e.g. You haven't even responded to me about why you're not against the LP version of the demag unit. I asked you, and you avoided explaining to me the discrepancy between you saying that the CD polycarbonate is not magnetic, and yet vinyl somehow is.

What doesnt sink in is that the original 1 or 0 can only possibly have two states, there is nothing inbetween and no way that you can have different forms of 1's or 0's.

What doesn't sink in with you is, who's arguing otherwise?


The format of the binary can be 16 bit, DSD, PCM, whatever and all these also have an influence. The base starting point of any CD is still the 1&0's, there is no way these can be influenced to sound different. This is not a statement of opinion, its fact.

Oh good grief.... As I asked you last time round Alan, please do some reading before you begin making these pointless and illogical arguments over and over again. Since you tell me that doing research taxes your faculties, I'm going to make it real easy for you, 'kay?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

Any homeopaths here?

They got smart and called in gay today.

I tried calling in gay, but my boss wanted a note from my boyfriend.

Meanwhile... back to our balanced and erudite panel of experts:

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


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The base starting point of any CD is still the 1&0's, there is no way these can be influenced to sound different. This is not a statement of opinion, its fact

Mind if I remind you I asked you some other questions?! Criminney, Alan, are you just going to ignore everything that's been said to you? Is this how you go about your business, the digital communications equipment says the guy is dead so you say he's dead?! Don't bother to revive him, the equipment is perfect and it says he's dead?

Show us where anyone has said the 1's and 0's change.

I know you won't.

Tell us what 1's and 0's represent.

I know you won't.

Tell us why you have utter faith in the ability of a CD to be a perfect representation of the 1's and 0's that were on the master tape.

I know you won't.

Tell us why this faith extends to the unerring ability of the laser to properly track the tiny thread of 1's and 0's on a spinning disc that has errors, is not flat to the laser's surface, is not exactly centered and has been manufactured for the lowest cost per unit and not the highest quality overall.

I know you will not.

If you choose to not answer these questions, Alan, why the hell do you stay on this thread? If you choose not to pay any attention to what is being said, this is not a discussion, never has been and never will be until the exchange is two sided.

Alan, are you interested in discussing this or are you interested in being right according to what you already "know"?

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Given a choice, I'll take DUP over the visitors. At least he was entertaining at times and he had a point.

If you don't like the residents of this thread and you have nothing to say other than you don't like the thread, don't look at the thread. If you have something that is of value to the thread, say that. You're like someone who watches a burning house and cheers for the flames.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


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methinks others are here in disguise.

Yes, there are some hangers-on who are disguised as people who should be here.

Why are you all here if you have nothing to contribute to the thread? A few of us have tried to make this a discussion and a few of you have stood here cheering the car wreck this thread has turned into with your help. Are you all that hard up for entertainment and that deprived of any desire to learn anything?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


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(Not sure what he's doing on Stereophile's site though, maybe someone else can answer that for me?

I've asked that question dozens of times to numerous people on this forum. The answer I always got was ...

I assume it's due to the simplest of logic - it would have to be - if you're looking to rouse the rabble about those dirty, low down, nogoodniks, the hifi snobs, where would you go? Show'em you're not afraid to wade into their territory and say nothing while shouting at everyone. Make a name for yourself, build up your reputation as a giant killer among the small minded who can't or won't answer a single question. Repeat, repeat, repeat. It worked for udp. When you can't think for yourself, anyone who says they'll think for you is a welcome sight.

If you're looking for a new batch of leapers, this forum always has a new batch waiting and lacing up their shoes.

So why are we discussing Winer? What has he contributed to moving this discussion forward?

At this point I'd prefer to simply discuss with May how the Furutech device might do what it does. Otherwise, this thread is going nowhere if there is no discussion. If someone wants to join in with something constructive, then they do so. If they want to stand on the sidelines and root for the next car to jump the tracks, ignore them.

zane9
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


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..and a few of you have stood here cheering the car wreck this thread has turned into with your help. Are you all that hard up for entertainment and that deprived of any desire to learn anything?

Reminder to self: call JV when I need to hire a PR firm - - he is the ultimate spinmaster. He adroitly deflects personal responsibility onto others. JV and the rest of the gang have gobs of time on their hands, so his team will work for cheap and will never reveal who they actually work for. Would not recommend that Frog fellow as a team member -- he loses his composure rather quickly.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Hmmmm, what did I learn about Furutech from that post?

Wait, please, nobody say anything. I'll figure it out.

Hmmmmmmm ...

tomjtx
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

You know what's fun ?
Put the verbose (you know the 2 of whom I speak) on ignore.

When someone quotes an occasional line from them you get the gist (gist rather than point cause they have no point :-)) of what they are saying w/o the boredom.


Quote:

Quote:

..and a few of you have stood here cheering the car wreck this thread has turned into with your help. Are you all that hard up for entertainment and that deprived of any desire to learn anything?

Reminder to self: call JV when I need to hire a PR firm - - he is the ultimate spinmaster. He adroitly deflects personal responsibility onto others. JV and the rest of the gang have gobs of time on their hands, so his team will work for cheap and will never reveal who they actually work for. Would not recommend that Frog fellow as a team member -- he loses his composure rather quickly.

Ergonaut
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

When does the movie come out?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Even less opportunity to think.

I rest my case.

tomjtx
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

I don't think anyone would want to see it :-)


Quote:
When does the movie come out?

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
As the attack dogs circle more and more tightly around this thread, would their owners please reveal their brand logos.

oh, cmon guy...are you serious? Let me get this straight.those of us that do not buy into this magick are deaf or have other, "commercial" motives?(I dont really see how Mr. Winer's commercial interests are relevant, seeing as how he sells room treatments, the benefits of which are widely known and accepted..even by the wackiest of wack job ultrafidelistas..(such as those that tack strips of "special foil" on CDs)

{quote SAS Audio]I am not taking sides

nah, I dont think you are taking sides, per se.. I do, however, feel that you have a grudge/chip on your shoulder with regards to Mr. Winer, and , as such, you take advantage of any opportunity to take a jab at him.

May Belt
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

>>> "I wonder if you might address this thought also. You say, "But you CAN change the SOUND by doing any of those things - AND create better height in the music, better width, better depth, better separation of instruments, better definition etc and this is EXACTLY what numerous people have been reporting !!!!! From EXACTLY the SAME digital information on the disc !!"
What if someone simply doesn't perceive those qualities? What if height, depth, separation, etc. means nothing to them? This has been my experience with many clients over the years, they do not hear those qualities that I and others hear that define for me - and others - the differing nature and quality of a component's performance." <<<

A difficult one, that, Jan. Because different people interpret (resolve) information in different ways and can also have a desire for some specific change. For example I will often be asked "How can I get deeper bass with your products?" Or, "Which frequencies will be most improved with your devices and techniques ?" Which are difficult questions to give specific answers to.

If I describe sound as ceasing to be 'harsh', 'aggressive', 'shouty' and to suddenly having open, airy, shimmering treble - what does that mean to someone else who has never realised that their sound HAS BEEN 'harsh', 'aggressive', or 'shouty' until they suddenly do something which stops it being ?

My description of greater height, greater depth, more separation of instruments may be someone else suddenly saying "Wow, I am suddenly hearing a walking bass that I had never heard before." Or, "I can suddenly hear 'sustain' on the guitar." It all depends on what THRILLS them !!! I get goose pimps at the incredible sound (the gradual rise and swelling) of the prisoners chorus from Fidelio or from suddenly experiencing an incredible improvement in the richness of the male voices from Tosca - but Peter may comment on something else entirely. OUR family joke is that when Peter has developed a new Foil or a new device and he has to give it a new name, I always want to call it "Treble Foil" because it is the open, airy, shimmering treble which is the first thing I notice !!!

I suspect all that may fit in with your own experiences !! And, that is all we can do - compare other people's experiences with our own. If both experiences coincide, then fine, we move forward.

Regards,
May Belt.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


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Given a choice, I'll take DUP over the visitors.

Um, Alex, was there more to your relationship with DUP?? Your constant praise of him comes off a bit creepy, stalking fan/obsessed-ish

Buddha
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

May and Ncdrawl, Jan is gonna yell at you. The last two posts have had nothing to do with the Furutech.

tomjtx
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

nc, what a crock . Alex simply has the same sense of fairness as I.
We have rude posters like JV and frog who insult and start arguments over nothing, who are ,IMO, far worse transgressors than DUP ever was.

Stereophile , IMO, is being unfair in it's treatment of DUP.
As a private forum that is their right but that doesn't mean I or Alex has to agree.

The ignore button exists for a reason.


Quote:

Quote:
Given a choice, I'll take DUP over the visitors.

Um, Alex, was there more to your relationship with DUP?? Your constant praise of him comes off a bit creepy, stalking fan/obsessed-ish

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


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The ignore button exists for a reason.

Yep, yep, it does.

But Stephen once told me I shouldn't be telling people I have them on ignore. He said that was rude.

Oh, well, rude be damned. Bye-bye, fella. I've never once seen you contribute anything positive to this forum. This thread has been no different than the rest of your posts.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Why are you all here if you have nothing to contribute to the thread? A few of us have tried to make this a discussion and a few of you have stood here cheering the car wreck this thread has turned into with your help. Are you all that hard up for entertainment and that deprived of any desire to learn anything?

What is it with all these loiterers and hangers-on in the peanut gallery? They seem to be breeding amongst themselves and multiplying like zombies. Where are they coming from? What are they doing here? Did a 7/11 close down in the neighborhood? A McD's? A graveyard? Are they Ethan Winer groupies, is that it?

You would think that among all their infantile pointless remarks, that at least a single one of them would have posted a single word on the subject of this thread. But no, not even a word. Sure they'll debate the fate of an ex-poster in this audio thread, but won't debate the actual audio subject of the audio thread. You know, most discussion forums would not support all these off-topic posters and the posts they're putting up, so I guess these trolls are getting their big break, hijacking threads like this.

Quick note to:


tomjtx

AlexO

rvance

zane9

Ergonaut

Ethan Whiner

(Here's hoping I haven't left anyone out that belongs on the above list). HEY GUYS: If you have nothing to contribute here besides content-free ad hominem attacks on the participants, if you have nothing intelligent or at least pertinent to say on the subject of this thread (the Furutech demagnetizers, for those who don't even know that much), then stop loitering in this thread. Stop whining about it, and go find discussions elsewhere that are more to your interest. Nuff said.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
So why are we discussing Winer? What has he contributed to moving this discussion forward?

You're right, he's contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the subject of this thread. All he's tried to do here is talk about amp measurements, because that's in his comfort zone. This way he can feel like an "eggspert" (not that he isn't wrong about his silly amp theories as well, but it requires its own thread). When I complained about that, stretching the truth as far as he could take it, he tried to tell me that amp measurements was fair game, because the title was about snake oil. But then more recently, this famously hypocritical double-talker told someone else the thread's subject was about the Demagnetizers. So he *does* know what the thread is about, but refuses to debate the subject.

And not even because he has no opinion on it. After all, he was one of the confused fools arguing that the Furutech could not demagentize plastic (as though Furutech ever said they could). When I took him to task on that, and refuted his position, Whiner did what he has always been known for doing: ducking, dodging and running away from an honest debate or challenge. "Sorry, out of my comfort zone", he says! Somehow, knowing absolutely scratch-all about the Furutech devices, did not stop this poster boy for the tin-eared dogmatic reactionary trVth squad from writing a letter to the CEA. Ranting about his conspiracy theories that they are in secret cahoots with Furutech for giving the company an award for their demag units! Too funny! They probably used his shamefully insane letter to line a bird cage. Inevitably, every time you point out their logical fallacies and baseless, erroneous assumptions, one of these trVth squad members gets hysterical and claims you're working for the Hifi Snobz Snake Oil Industry, or some nonsense like that. These people are beyond therapy, if you ask me.

But its telling that it isn't just Whiner that refuses to move the discussion forward, and has done his usual cowardly bit of running away from every refutation, every challenge made to him on the thread's subject. If we took all the zero contributors to this thread out right now, we'd find ourselves arguing with ourselves. Because even the thread's author, "Welsh hifi", as we have seen, refuses to debate the subject of his own thread! It almost appears as though he didn't quite expect to. Or at least not with someone that could challenge him on it. As far as I know, Alan ("Welsh hifi") is still carefully combing through this thread, trying to figure out where the rebuttals are. I know I've written many, and you've written some. But yet somehow, between him, Ethan and everyone else who dumped on the Furutech devices or has otherwise added their comments here, not a single skeptic on this forum is able to find our rebuttals and properly challenge them. Uncanny! And these are the guys who insist that facts and logic rule?? All I can say to that is if evil be the food of genius, there aren't many demons around.

But let's be generous and say that maybe Welsh hifi is still trying to figure out how to click the link I supplied for the really slow people (it was actually written to Ethan), who couldn't figure out where my rebuttal was. Or get the hint that I said it was my first post here. Or get the large arrows that you supplied for that post of mine, showing where it was. Or maybe he's found the damn thing, but he still needs help reading more than 3 words at a sitting. Anyone's guess, really. Ethan Winer realizes now that he is clearly out of his league talking about the Furutech demagnetizers, and he doesn't wish to embarass himself any further. He's still smarting from the embarassment he received after his major bail out on my test challenge last summer.

I'm going after Welsh hifi though, because of his grand display of arrogance I read from him at the beginning of this thread. That kind of got my dander up. That's the one where he made this appeal to authority to you. A truly pathetic attempt to intimidate you by stating he was "insulted" no less that you would question his knowledge of the Furutech devices, because he "allegedly" has all these years of experience in digital communications, and he's responsible for communicating with aliens by digital satellite in the CETI program. Or whatever. (rolling eyes). Turns out, after I queried him for 5 minutes, he couldn't even get the basic premise of how the device works right! (So much for his "75 years of experience in digital audio" or whatever).

Small wonder, since the man publicly admits that he finds it too taxing on his mental faculties to read through any rebuttal that's longer than 7 words! (So no danger of him reading any of this, LOL!) I don't know about you, but it feels like I'm trying to have a debate with 2 year old toddlers. Not at all rational thinking adults, capable of serious debate, and who can understand and recognize concepts like facts and evidence. And what's worse is the baby debaters are all on Ritalin, have the attention span of a Rheesus monkey, and I have to talk quickly in under 7 words, before their nappy time. Which then means they're off in dreamyland, and you can't talk to them until the Teletubbies wake up. I find myself looking up at the top of the page occasionally, in order to convince myself that I'm really at the Stereophile web forum, and not the Tots-R-Us web forum. I heard there was a global economic recession, but has it extended to an intellectual recession as well? Well, truly, let's hope not.

zane9
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
those of us that do not buy into this magick are deaf or have other, "commercial" motives...

No. Exactly the opposite contention. I believe those weaving the tales of magic have commercial interests in the industry, but will not declare themselves as stakeholders.

zane9
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
... Stop whining about it, and go find discussions elsewhere that are more to your interest. Nuff said.

Nothing like spending time in the Hall of Mirrors.

Posting a contrary position on the dominant Intelligent Design aspect of this thread would be pointless: it would be like feeding raw meat to jackals.

bifcake
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

Why are you all here if you have nothing to contribute to the thread?

Because there is such a whirlwind of bullshit, no one can get a word in.


Quote:
A few of us have tried to make this a discussion and a few of you have stood here cheering the car wreck this thread has turned into with your help. Are you all that hard up for entertainment and that deprived of any desire to learn anything?

Above, please find a mini-whirlwind of bullshit that we can refer to as a representative sample.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

You're right, he's contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the subject of this thread. All he's tried to do here is talk about amp measurements, because that's in his comfort zone. This way he can feel like an "eggspert" (not that he isn't wrong about his silly amp theories as well, but it requires its own thread). When I complained about that, stretching the truth as far as he could take it, he tried to tell me that amp measurements was fair game, because the title was about snake oil. But then more recently, this famously hypocritical double-talker told someone else the thread's subject was about the Demagnetizers. So he *does* know what the thread is about, but refuses to debate the subject.

And not even because he has no opinion on it. After all, he was one of the confused fools arguing that the Furutech could not demagentize plastic (as though Furutech ever said they could). When I took him to task on that, and refuted his position, Whiner did what he has always been known for doing: ducking, dodging and running away from an honest debate or challenge. "Sorry, out of my comfort zone", he says! Somehow, knowing absolutely scratch-all about the Furutech devices, did not stop this poster boy for the tin-eared dogmatic reactionary trVth squad from writing a letter to the CEA. Ranting about his conspiracy theories that they are in secret cahoots with Furutech for giving the company an award for their demag units! Too funny! They probably used his shamefully insane letter to line a bird cage. Inevitably, every time you point out their logical fallacies and baseless, erroneous assumptions, one of these trVth squad members gets hysterical and claims you're working for the Hifi Snobz Snake Oil Industry, or some nonsense like that. These people are beyond therapy, if you ask me.

You know all that, you wrote it. I just figured it was the length of the post that scared these guys and when they see more than one sentence follow another - in order - with a complete thought, they run from it. Kinda like a vampire and a crucifix. So, this might keep them off the trail for a while, Kemosabe. Maybe not, they like it when someone "copy/pastes" entire posts, I guess it makes them feel like they have said something even when they haven't.

Anyway, forgetting about those who have nothing to say but say it anyway.

What's your opinion on May's premise of "Polarities" and "Electrets"? To be honest here, I don't know that demagnetization is what's happening with the Furutech device. The Six Moons review gave little to go on other than Lloyd Walker disagrees with how the Furutech - or his device, I'm not sure which he was referring to - operates.

"[A recent conversation with Lloyd Walker who has authored a hand-held version of the DeMag shed light on this designer's ideas as to why demagnetizing CDs works. He claims that it's really destaticing which destresses the juncture between metal and plastic. "Ever notice how warm a CD gets after play?", he asked me. Plastic and metal expand at different rates when heated. It's the resultant material stress which destaticing minimizes and which causes the audible improvements. At least according to Walker - Ed.]"
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/furutech5/demag.html

That would make three theories of how this does its job. Where are you at on any of them? At this point I'm only interested in discussing this with someone who will take the time to read a post and have something to say in response - not just post to make room for a better breeze through their ears. May? sas? Any opinions?

But its telling that it isn't just Whiner that refuses to move the discussion forward, and has done his usual cowardly bit of running away from every refutation, every challenge made to him on the thread's subject. If we took all the zero contributors to this thread out right now, we'd find ourselves arguing with ourselves. Because even the thread's author, "Welsh hifi", as we have seen, refuses to debate the subject of his own thread! It almost appears as though he didn't quite expect to. Or at least not with someone that could challenge him on it. As far as I know, Alan ("Welsh hifi") is still carefully combing through this thread, trying to figure out where the rebuttals are. I know I've written many, and you've written some. But yet somehow, between him, Ethan and everyone else who dumped on the Furutech devices or has otherwise added their comments here, not a single skeptic on this forum is able to find our rebuttals and properly challenge them. Uncanny! And these are the guys who insist that facts and logic rule?? All I can say to that is if evil be the food of genius, there aren't many demons around.

But let's be generous and say that maybe Welsh hifi is still trying to figure out how to click the link I supplied for the really slow people (it was actually written to Ethan), who couldn't figure out where my rebuttal was. Or get the hint that I said it was my first post here. Or get the large arrows that you supplied for that post of mine, showing where it was. Or maybe he's found the damn thing, but he still needs help reading more than 3 words at a sitting. Anyone's guess, really. Ethan Winer realizes now that he is clearly out of his league talking about the Furutech demagnetizers, and he doesn't wish to embarass himself any further. He's still smarting from the embarassment he received after his major bail out on my test challenge last summer.

I'm going after Welsh hifi though, because of his grand display of arrogance I read from him at the beginning of this thread. That kind of got my dander up. That's the one where he made this appeal to authority to you. A truly pathetic attempt to intimidate you by stating he was "insulted" no less that you would question his knowledge of the Furutech devices, because he "allegedly" has all these years of experience in digital communications, and he's responsible for communicating with aliens by digital satellite in the CETI program. Or whatever. (rolling eyes). Turns out, after I queried him for 5 minutes, he couldn't even get the basic premise of how the device works right! (So much for his "75 years of experience in digital audio" or whatever).

Small wonder, since the man publicly admits that he finds it too taxing on his mental faculties to read through any rebuttal that's longer than 7 words! (So no danger of him reading any of this, LOL!) I don't know about you, but it feels like I'm trying to have a debate with 2 year old toddlers. Not at all rational thinking adults, capable of serious debate, and who can understand and recognize concepts like facts and evidence. And what's worse is the baby debaters are all on Ritalin, have the attention span of a Rheesus monkey, and I have to talk quickly in under 7 words, before their nappy time. Which then means they're off in dreamyland, and you can't talk to them until the Teletubbies wake up. I find myself looking up at the top of the page occasionally, in order to convince myself that I'm really at the Stereophile web forum, and not the Tots-R-Us web forum. I heard there was a global economic recession, but has it extended to an intellectual recession as well? Well, truly, let's hope not.

ethanwiner
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
I believe those weaving the tales of magic have commercial interests in the industry, but will not declare themselves as stakeholders.


Exactly, which makes them dishonest frauds as well as full of shit about the facts.

I hereby nominate Jan, Frog, KBK, and May as the new Mighty Four - mighty as in "mighty wind." SAS can be Secretary in Charge of Pretend Engineering.

--Ethan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Ethan Whiner ... If you have nothing to contribute here besides content-free ad hominem attacks ...


Said the pot to the kettle.

RGibran
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

We did this back in 2006 HERE . Many thanks to Buddha for his curiosity and extensive research. Perhaps his finest hour of valuable contributions to this forum.

RG

ncdrawl
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Hey, I am all about DUP being here...I share nearly the same views on this audio thing as he does... but Alex mentions the guy every other breath.. bit weird, but hey, were talking about demagnetizing plastic, so what the hell eh


Quote:
nc, what a crock . Alex simply has the same sense of fairness as I.
We have rude posters like JV and frog who insult and start arguments over nothing, who are ,IMO, far worse transgressors than DUP ever was.

Stereophile , IMO, is being unfair in it's treatment of DUP.
As a private forum that is their right but that doesn't mean I or Alex has to agree.

The ignore button exists for a reason.


Quote:

Quote:
Given a choice, I'll take DUP over the visitors.

Um, Alex, was there more to your relationship with DUP?? Your constant praise of him comes off a bit creepy, stalking fan/obsessed-ish

ncdrawl
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

No. Exactly the opposite contention. I believe those weaving the tales of magic have commercial interests in the industry, but will not declare themselves as stakeholders.

my apologies, bud.

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