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Welshsox
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Frog

The simple reason that we didnt try to understand how the product works is that it doesnt.

The laws of physics apply, plastic is not magentic.

Alan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
I think you and The Frog should team up with SAS and have a contest to see who can use the most words to say the least.

Uh-huh. So tell me, wading through your ad hominem replies, what precisely have you said on the subject of this thread, the Furutech CD demagnitizer, that is more than the rest of us combined? All I've seen is some dumb pronouncement that the audio demagnitizers are "snake oil", based on your total ignorance of both how the products work, and what CD's and LP's are made of. You're batting 0 for 2, with your chin in the dirt because you tripped over your shoelaces trying to steal first base. That's what we've seen so far. (I shudder to think what your performance will be in the second inning of this debate). Worse still, you based your ignorant argument on one of your usual appeals to authority (somehow forgetting the fact that you're scientifically illiterate), and when I asked you to back up your argument against the Furutech devices with hard facts, you just mindlessly repeated your empty claim that they are "snake oil". The same claim that was unsupported and already refuted.


Quote:
This is a common problem I see all the time, though usually in political discussions. People that have no idea what they're talking about express strong opinions anyway. The sad part is they don't even know that they're ignorant. There's nothing wrong with not knowing stuff, and there's plenty I don't know. The difference between me versus Jan and The Frog is you won't find me arguing with experts about topics I know nothing about!

ROTFL! And yet, that is exactly what you've been doing! Talk about projection! As anyone can see, you refuse to respond to my rebuttal of your erroneous claims about the Furutech demagnitizers, because that would prove you are arguing about topics you know nothing about! Well, at least I can finally get on board with what you're saying. Especially the line: "the sad part is, you don't even know you're ignorant".

Look, if you're too chicken to debate the topic of the threads you invade, and continue to make "hit and run" assertions that you refuse to support or debate, then my advice to you Ethan is to simply stay out of these threads, and stick to the ones that cover what little you do know. Because otherwise all you want to do is hijack the topic thread in order to argue things within your comfort zone, and make ad hominem attacks against those trying to debate the topic's subject with you. So by this, you just bring down the level of discussion to what little you know, and as even a subset of that, what little you are willing to seriously debate. This makes it that more difficult for threads with your "participation" in it (if we can even call it that), to advance their topic.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Frog

The simple reason that we didnt try to understand how the product works is that it doesnt.

The laws of physics apply, plastic is not magentic.

Alan

Oh boy. (roll) Between you and the Wizard of Oz there, amidst all these cries of "snake oil!" you've been making about products you know nothing about and even refuse to know anything about, you are both literally the blind leading the blind, and the deaf leading the deaf. In any case, as far as debates go, I don't think I have never seen weaker debaters than you two. At least not from people who claim to be such experts on the subject. Which is why I'm so shocked at how empty your response is. You obviously don't realize that you just admitted that you did not try to understand how an audio product works, let alone actually trying it, before calling it "snake oil", because you don't even understand how it is supposed to work, and are therefore operating from a base of ignorant assumption.

To begin with, where did Furutech claim that "plastic is magnetic"? Are you satisfied here that you've thoroughly defeated your own claim?? And to end with, I have already posted in this thread a rebuttal to your argument about the issue of plastic not being magnetic re: the Furutech CD demag. Not once but several times. In fact, in reference to that, I just finished admonishing The Wizard for ignoring my first post here arguing against the very position above that you have continued to take. I realize he's trying to save face, to avoid further embarassment to his ego. What's your reason for avoiding my post and continuing this same defense?

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Mr. Winer

with regards to hearing capacitors..

there is an interesting comparison file that is bundled with
Audio Diffmaker that shows some pretty surprising differences between capacitor types.

as to Frog

what is the history behind the challenge you presented to Ethan? I know what was typed, but what truthfully happened?

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

Quote:
Sorry, but You are the one who stated it could not be measured with audio test gear in your post, 120db down, Remember.


As far as I know, artifacts can be measured down to around -130 dB where thermal noise takes over. But nothing that soft can be heard. Especially not on a CD where the noise floor is just below -90, and certainly not on vinyl or analog tape where the noise floor is even higher. Anyone who thinks they can "hear a capacitor" is seriously deluded.

--Ethan

A simple voltmeter, which is much much much less "sensitive" than a spec test gear, yet has little problem measuring DA. Yet your supposively "sensitive" test gear cannot measure DA (assuming you actually have any).

I did not state the test instrument could not measure DA, you did so take responsibility. I stated anyone can measure DA with a simple voltmeter, as I did.

So spec meters do not measure all there is, period. Suddenly changing your story just does not look good Ethan.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

I don't understand your point. When did I ever say a manufacturer shouldn't listen, or that I know of manufacturers that don't listen? Hell, when I've designed and built audio gear I've always listened.

Then why did you state you purchased your $150.00 receiver (no joke, he said it cost $150.00) by just the specs and without any listening?

And what audio gear did you design and build, or was it kits and data sheets with designs already printed out? Please be specific.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/dosea...&fromprof=1

I'd be careful of the company you respect if I were you.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
The simple reason that we didnt try to understand how the product works is that it doesnt.

But people many of us trust say it does work. Look, if you're positive the item doesn't work at all, then you should have no problem answering the questions that have been asked of you. It's very easy. If you answer the questions we know you have read all the comments made here and you've thought this out and you're not just following the leader because it's safer not to know than it is to find out the facts. It's easier to jump off the cliff when you're told to do so than it is to think this through for yourself.

Not answering any of the questions really indicates you're on your way down to the bottom of the cliff.

THUD!

Do you need me to repeat the questions?

Welshsox
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Frog

If i told you to put your head in a burning fire, would you ? or would you have enough knowledge to know better ?

Why do hifi snobs like you try and pull this crap about not trying to understand ? Bullshit is bullshit and thats the end of it.

You can put your head in the fire to find out if you like, ill stand back and watch.

Alan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Jan

Ill be honest, your posts ramble on so much i have no idea what your questions are.

To answer another snake oil point being raised, I do absolutely believe that capacitors have a major sound impact. This is easily backed up by electrical theory and practical experience.

Its not hifi snake oil im against in general, its bullshit like demagnetizers and $20,000 Odin power cords

Alan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Hey Alan,

One wag at Audio Asylum put the concept this way: "You can't say that shit tastes bad until you eat some!"

Or, in the immortal words of Ivor Tiefenbrun: "If you have not heard it, you have no opinion" (that is, no right to an opinion).

Never mind that it makes no sense that non-magnetic materials such as vinyl cannot be demagnetized - because they can't be magnetized in the first place.

But of course some audio gooroos dispute this, because they "trust their ears" - LOL!

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

So you want me to repeat the questions?

Welshsox
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Keep them short though !!

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Well Linn has beed notorious over the years for following hifi fashion. Hes the last guy id trust !!!

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

Well said!

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Jan

<snip>

Its not hifi snake oil im against in general, its bullshit like demagnetizers and $20,000 Odin power cords

Alan

Or, interconnects that are $18,000 per meter.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

Quote:
Jan

<snip>

Its not hifi snake oil im against in general, its bullshit like demagnetizers and $20,000 Odin power cords

Alan

Or, interconnects that are $18,000 per meter.

So, at what price point would those interconnects cease to be bullshit?

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

For me, it's at about $150.

It's really a question of value proposition. If value=quality/price, then, to my mind, one has to wonder what the value proposition is for interconnects that cost as much as a car, when we all know that audio performance pretty quickly becomes asymptotic with respect to performance/price. The margin that manufacturers charge customers for "high-end" can really get out of whack, IMHO.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
as to Frog

what is the history behind the challenge you presented to Ethan? I know what was typed, but what truthfully happened?

Well, although this isn't pertinent to the subject matter, and I do wish we would begin debating the actual subject of the thread so I'm not just debating myself, since you asked, here's what happened in brief: I issued a challenge to "Mr. Winer", because of the fact I always saw him talking a big talk on these forums all the time about what can and can't be heard, and yet despite him not being able to hear things that children can hear, ie. differences between audio wires, he talked about how fantastic his listening skills were, trying to convince us of what an expert he was on that. And of course he dismissed my findings, whenever I described what I was able to hear. We were always at odds because of the fact that he's stone deaf when it comes to resolving anything more subtle than an air horn, and relies on the very simple-minded measurements that he knows about (ignoring the things in audio he doesn't know to measure, or doesn't know how to measure, or doesn't have the equipment to measure, or that simply can't be measured). So knowing (or "believing" if you will) that his so-called listening skills could not even begin to compare with my own, I told him in so many words that if I tested him on it, I didn't believe his ears would ever be able to cash all these checks his mouth kept making. So when I told him as much, that I didn't think he would pass me testing him, he was like "Try me!". And I told him he could test me, and that it would be a mutual blind test. (That is, a test we both took at the same time, but that he could test me individually however he wanted to, after the main test had run).

To make it interesting, I chose a bottle of blue liquid as the test device (and NOT "magic pebbles", whatever those are, as he falsely alleged in this thread). Not to test the liquid on anything, but I told him I could hear whether the bottle was in the room or not, by the effect it had on sound. After all, I had already proven this for myself in a series of blind tests conducted by a 3rd party, that I had finished months earlier, and which I wrote about in a publication. Knowing EW wasn't used to testing blue bottles of liquid (and neither of us were particularly familiar with the audio system to be used), I kindly offered him the opportunity to do pre-tests if he wished, to get acquainted with the device or the system, before we embarked on "the big one". Oddly, he never bothered to respond to that (almost as though he were stringing me along, and always knew he would never even show for the test...). Instead, he fully accepted my proposal of testing the presence of a blue bottle of liquid in the room (a 3rd party, blind to both of us, would be inserting or removing the device). Even odder? He had no problem agreeing to a blue bottle of liquid being the test device. Despite the fact that he had no idea what it was supposed to do, let alone how it worked. If he failed at identifying it during the listening tests, and I was able to identify the presence of the bottle more consistently than him, it would mean he lost the challenge, and that I proved my listening skills were better than his. (Obviously, the greater the difference in our performance, the more significant my win would have been). If neither of us could identify the bottle beyond chance, then the challenge was to be declared a draw. And if he identified the bottle beyond chance, and I failed to do so? Well that just meant you were dreaming, and needed to wake up.

The test was initially being negotiated in email (and something I hoped would be quick and painless, as opposed to long and drawn out), and that's where I wanted it to stay. Precisely because of the fact that I am all too familiar with Mr. Winer's grandstanding on the forums (note how often he speaks to an "audience" when he replies to an adversary?), and didn't want to give him a stage in which to play out his acts, to try to produce a good-looking excuse to back out, once he realized I was quite serious about going through with this. I admit I was always a bit suspicious of his sincerity, because he would keep giving me these little reasons to be. Though I never questioned his integrity (until later). But Ethan insisted on taking our negotiation public, so I agreed (I didn't want to be difficult and give him an excuse to back out). After the negotiation of the details of the test became a public affair, it just got silly. As I anticipated him doing, Ethan started questioning my integrity, and inventing all these things that I could do, to rig the test. No one wanted a more honest test than myself, because otherwise, I knew any victory I won over him would forever be questioned by him. So I worked hard on devising a foolproof method to ensure that there would be no way I could be in on the test even if I wanted to (and even if I knew the test conductor). I thought I succeeded in doing that (I even felt like I might have set a new precedent for maintaining integrity in similar blind tests!), and I posted my design proposal for this test, awaiting feedback and the expected criticism, if any.

It got no criticism, because it got no comment. Despite my having referred to my proposal 72 times, insisting that he stop arguing about my integrity and either accept or show where my proposal wouldn't work, Ethan completely ignored my proposal! He even ignored all references to my proposal. He kept ignoring it throughout the dozens of posts that thread amassed! In fact, as I recall (because I remember complaining about this), in that thread, Ethan completely ignored *me* as well! I'm not joking!! In a thread which HE wanted us to start, in order to negotiate the details of the test we were supposed to engage in, he completely ignored me! He would occasionally speak "about me" (aka his grandstanding again), but not to me! Then he took a break from ignoring me in that thread, for several weeks, while he proceeded to ignore the entire thread itself. I thought maybe he died, or was on vacation but no! He had been continuing to post on Stereophile! He only came back to the thread when he saw someone added to it, asking what had happened to our negotiations. And he only felt forced to respond because he saw there was still interest in this, hence while he had hoped everyone had forgotten about the test, the renewed interest meant his "highly valued" (in fantasyland) reputation was again at stake.

Except after he was dragged back to the negotiating table, we see that Ethan sang quite a different tune to the one he sang to me when I first challenged him. He was not so full o' gumption then. He was much more reserved and subdued. He was more like "well, he wasn't sure if he was still interested", and that's when he started coming up with all these insane conditions before he would agree to having the test. His friend didn't want to come (even though we never talked about the need for his friend to be there), it was too far out of his way (even though it would only have added like a half hour to his drive, as I pointed out), he remembered he was allergic to Canada.... etc. etc. Then, our precious Ethan Winer came up with the most pathetic face-saving excuse I have ever seen anyone in his right mind use to weasel out of a challenge: he refused to agree to the test on account of my name. Yes, I had to prove to him that my name was "Michigan J. Frog", after he demanded it, posting a link to the internet yellow pages in the U.S., showing no results found for my name! So it was just one smokescreen after another with him, until he finally just declared he didn't trust me to conduct the test honestly (this despite the fact that he still never responded to my test design proposal that ensured no one could cheat, and despite that I never questioned his integrity).

All throughout this showboating ordeal of his, I kept getting the impression this was a guy who had no intention in hell of ever showing up. He hadn't shown the slightest interest in the test itself, let alone discussing the test with me, and every interest in the superficialities of who I was and where I lived. At one point, one of his bogus conditions was to refuse to agree to the test if I didn't conduct it at my place (instead of a friend's house). That, along with many other hints I was getting from Ethan such as asking me to prove my name, proved to me that Ethan's intentions here had nothing to do with audio (which would in fact explain his complete lack of interest in the test, despite his pretenses to the contrary). And that they had everything to do with my "identity" that he spoke of, which was pretty much all he was interested in. I then realized Ethan had no intention of ever showing up on the doorstep of my friend's house. He strung me and everyone else here along for weeks on end, simply because he wanted to find out what my name was, and where I lived. Why? This was revealed by something else he said on the forum prior to the discussion of this test: that I was secretly a competitor of his, hiding under an assumed name, in order to embarass him, and cost him sales of room traps! Yup, he really IS that wacky. I mean its not like I ever forced him into this audiophile sound off with me. I just thought it would help put an end to a lot of these unresolved squabbles we were having, which I felt were due to his lack of faculties of discrimination in listening tests. I wish now that he would have just shut up and said "no thank you", and not have put me and others (some of who were very eager for us to see this through) through all of that. I would have been fine with a simple "no thank you", and scooted along my merry way.

If you think Ethan deserves more respect than I'm willing to give him, then that shows you obviously don't know the man very well. Whatever respect I might have had for Ethan before that test, and I admit there really wasn't much, was completely obliterated after I really saw what he was about, and the lengths he would go to try to deceive the very people he spends his every waking day here with (which I see in another glorious display of pathetic deceit, he is still trying to do by now revising the history of our exchange). Now, if he told me the sun came up this morning, I wouldn't even trust him to be truthful about that, and would have to verify first. So if there's one rule in audio that I would stake my life on, it's this: The more you know Ethan, the more you wish you didn't.

Anywayz, I hope that answers your question, Mr. NC Drawl.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
If i told you to put your head in a burning fire, would you ? or would you have enough knowledge to know better ?

Are you asking the subjectivist in me, or the objectivist in me? Presuming you're asking me as an objectivist to an objectivist, and presuming that it were proven on paper that putting my head in a burning fire could not possibly be harmful to me (ie. Ethan tabulated the numbers on that), then yes, I would have no problem putting my head in a burning fire. And as my face melted, I would just deny any harm being done, waving the paper in the air that proves my head is not really burning to a cinder. The problem with you is you thinking you have enough knowledge to know better (ie. re: CD/LP demagnitizers), when really, as you have been showing us, you only barely have enough knowledge to be dangerous.


Quote:
Why do hifi snobs like you try and pull this crap about not trying to understand ?
Bullshit is bullshit and thats the end of it.

"Hifi snobs"? (raises eyebrow) Were you the one telling me about the chip on MY shoulder?? The crap about you not trying to understand is not crap. If you're not aware that you're actually busy proving that right here and now, then you really need to beg, borrow or buy yourself a clue, son. I mean is this actually your rebuttal, to my asking you to prove what you claim to understand? To declare "bullshit is bullshit and that's the end of it"? You might as well tell everyone your brain hurts when you pee, for all the good you're doing convincing us that you know anything about what you're talking about; re: the Furutech CD demag. I'm starting to wonder if you, ncdrawl, Ethan, JIMV, and whoever issued similar statements of "snake oil" against the Furutech, if you even understand the BASICS of how to debate audio on scientific grounds. I'm talking the buck-toothed, infant-milk, baby-stepping BASICS here. I mean geez!! Here, let me explain what I'm talking about!!:

THE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO DEBATING AUDIO ON AN AUDIO FORUM:

The Wrong Way

You make a stupid baseless strawman argument claim about an audio product you know nothing about and never tried. It challenges your caveman instincts, and what little you know of science, plus it provokes all those great prejudices and biases you've built up on all those like products you equally don't understand, and are equally dismissive of. So you jerk your knee and yell "it's bullshit!" at the top of your lungs. You don't even have the sense to stop at calling it "snake oil!".

Embarassingly, you got the facts wrong. Except you're too ignorant to realize that, and too ignorant to be embarassed by your ignorance. Along comes one o' them "hi-fi snobs", with them "stereo speakers" on them fancy "speaker stands" he's got (and them lil' spikey things at the bottom of his speakers), and he politely tells you:

"Yer full o' crap, son. Furutech never said plastic was magnetic. Keep trying though. You'll surely stumble upon some credible point some day, and maybe we can start to have a serious debate".

Then this makes you angry, because he's tryin' to complicate the argument by injecting his stupid "FACTS" into it. So you call him silly names, and then just to show you smart you really are, you try to "philusuphize" him. No metaphor or analogy is too silly or impertinent for you, no sir! Burning heads in fire? Virgins on the mount? It's all good, and hopefully, it will make people forget that STILL, after 120+ posts on the subject, you have STILL not even gotten the basic FACTS correct on the "Extreme Snake Oil" CD Demagnitizer rant you started this thread with! Nope, you still think the company is claiming it can "demagnitize plastic". (Properly called "polycarbonate" in this case but don't worry, no one's expecting you, a self-proclaimed digital expert, to have known that).

You had to have a Frog tell you this wasn't so, but you certainly couldn't possibly admit that a Frog proved you wrong, could you? So what do you do then? Come up with a brilliant rebuttal, pulling facts from all kinds of reputable and verifiable sources, that disprove his counterpoint against you? No. You clench your fists and stomp your feet and yell "Bullshit!" until you're blue in the face.

"This is Bullshit okay! I know Bullshit! when I see Bullshit! So don't tell me! It's Bullshit!, see?! And I don't care about your stupid "facts", Frog! You're Bullshit! You and all your Hi-Fi Snob (tm) friends! You're all full o' Bullshit! Everything's Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!

Waaaaaaaah!"

The Right Way

Guess you didn't get the memo, Mr. Welsh. Here it is: Repeating the word "Bullshit" in response to a valid request that you back up your claims of snake oil with something other than "Bullshit!" that you invented about the Furutech device, only makes you appear to have just gotten off the short bus. When someone challenges your claims about a product, it's up to you to respond to their challenge by addressing their counter-arguments, with factual statements that can be verified, if necessary. That is what is called a "d-e-b-a-t-e", see? The person who presents the most facts WINS. You were misinformed to think it's the person with the LEAST facts, who repeats the words "bullshit!" or "snake oil!" the most, and then runs and hides from any serious challenge to his "snake oil" arguments.

Putting this response of yours beside the context of your previous responses, where we see you making loud (and notably ridiculous) appeals to authority, and claiming your "bullshit" should be believed because you are an expert in a field completely unrelated to magnetism and metallurgy, my sides are ripping from laughter. Seriously. Stop making excuses and start debating me already! Answer my rebuttal to you, Ethan and those who jumped on your skeptic's bandwagon. It's my first post in this thread, and my first post on this site in 5 months. You can't miss it. How many times do you want me to point it out to you people? Do you need me to take you by the hand and carefully read it to you?


Quote:

You can put your head in the fire to find out if you like, ill stand back and watch.

So now you're equating trying a CD demagnitizer with putting your head in the fire?? Ohhh....kay. You know, I just realized you may just have bigger problems than not understanding how a CD demagnitizer works. In the absence of any proper rebuttal from you to my arguments refuting yours on the product, I'll take your non-response to mean:

"You know, I really have no idea in hell or earth how the Furutech Demagnitizers work, and after reading your rebuttal, it looks like I'm way in my head over this and to avoid embarassing myself any further, I'll just say the word "bullshit" and quietly sneak away from the debate. Let's just forget that I ever said anything about the Furutech demagnitizers okay? Thank you for your understanding.". Are these really your last words on the subject, Mr. Welsh?

Welshsox
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Frog

Are you related to JV ? your answers are even more long winded. You also share the same triat of not actually saying anything, you attack me for being dismissive of the facts yet present absolutely none in rebuttal.

Your stance is similar to a TV lawyer, you know nothing but as you have seen the light your defence will be to discredit me.

Tell us in simple undisputable terms how these devices work ?

Ill tell you why they dont

1 - Plastic is not magentic

2 - CD's are digital, that means either 1 or 0 there are no other states.

3 - Im only condemning demagnetizers for CD's so do not bring vinyl into the equation

Alan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

excellent response, Alan :-)

It appears that some people think they can change another's perception of reality if they just talk enough.


Quote:
Frog

Are you related to JV ? your answers are even more long winded. You also share the same triat of not actually saying anything, you attack me for being dismissive of the facts yet present absolutely none in rebuttal.

Your stance is similar to a TV lawyer, you know nothing but as you have seen the light your defence will be to discredit me.

Tell us in simple undisputable terms how these devices work ?

Ill tell you why they dont

1 - Plastic is not magentic

2 - CD's are digital, that means either 1 or 0 there are no other states.

3 - Im only condemning demagnetizers for CD's so do not bring vinyl into the equation

Alan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
If i told you to put your head in a burning fire, would you ? or would you have enough knowledge to know better ?

Would you grab hold of a soldering iron that's working?

http://www.asseenontv.com/prod-pages/heat_cold_soldering_set.html


Quote:
It appears that some people think they can change another's perception of reality if they just talk enough.

How about somebody else does the talking?

Can a "stone" make your system sound better?

http://www.shakti-innovations.com/emitests.htm

Or make your car run better?

http://www.shakti-innovations.com/dynotests.htm

Logic is a wonnerful thing. You don't need perception or reality if you got logic on your side.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Its not hifi snake oil im against in general, its bullshit like demagnetizers and $20,000 Odin power cords

WHOA! WHOA-WHOA-WHOA! Stop the wagon train and circle the women.

OK, you got us, you've seen through the one fallacy of our premise.

We're all OK with snake oil. Snake oil works when we hear it working.

It's not the snake oil that bothers us, as a matter of fact we kinda think most of what Winer calls snake oil is actually pretty good stuff. But we'll still demand respect for the guy who calls it BS 'cause, well ... uh ... well ... just 'cause! Ya gotta respect a guy who can be so wrong so much of the time.

So, snake oil by itself = OK.

It just can't be snake oil that costs too much. Or it can't be snake oil that costs too much and isn't the same thing as what we called snake oil at the beginning of the thread.

Geeez, that is soooooooo simple!

See, Frog, when it gets explained like that, short and sweet, everybody can agree to those terms. No long, involved explanations to wade through and get lost 'cause your attention span for ideas is too short by three quarters. No facts to misinterpret. No questions to ignore.

Nothing to get in the way of simple, pure logic.

Why didn't we just say that?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
It appears that some people think they can change another's perception of reality if they just talk enough.

Another brilliant leap off the cliff.

That leaping stuff must be a whole lot more fun than it looks like from the results of the landing.

It would appear it is once again May, Frog, myself and on occasion JIMV watching most of the rest of you follow Ethan's orders to jump.

Oooooh, you're all such good little puppies! Such good little puppies, let me scratch yer widdle belly! OOOOOH, that's so much fun, isn't it? You just lay there and we'll tell you when to jump. OOOOH, such good widdle puppies.

And none of you leapers really cares to stop long enough to understand why we're trying to say don't jump.

None of us are trying to change the "perception" of any of you. We are all saying you get to have your own perception and your perception might not be the same as our perception. That's all we're really saying.

The condition we place on you staying at the top of the cliff is you think about something before you take that final leap. You don't warm up for the big one by jumping to the conclusion anyone is trying to demagnetize polycarbonate. You don't justify your knowledge that this is what's being done by presenting your resume in digital communication. You don't take a practice leap by attaching your claims of this device not working to the price of something totally dissimilar. (You can't demagnetize plastic because Terrell Owens is being paid so much.) And you don't drive yourself to the edge of the cliff by looking at an electronic testing device for the answer to whether you are dead or alive.

We're just here to get you to stop long enough to consider why what you are proposing is not a good, or a smart, choice. We're having a good time up here. None of us have our heels worn down to the bone from digging in, trying to stop the advancement of anything other than those who would leap just because they've been told it's easier to leap than to think. We're all for thinking on your own and perceiving what you will. It's you guys who are throwing such a fuss over this whole perception thing.

Why's it take us so many of those confounded words to say that? Well, that's an easy one too. Just copying "BULLSHIT" doesn't take much time or much thought. Just repeating "It can't work because I don't understand it", doesn't take all that much time or space. Just posting, "Yeah, what Ethan said", is on the little cards he hands out when you join up in his merry little band of ne'er do wells and hear nothings.

So you guys have it easy.

"Nope" takes so little time to type.

Us? We have to come up with questions for you to ignore. And we have to try to make sense of what you've posted when you've ignored our posts. And then try even harder to sort out why "It ain't so" is supposed to be an appropriate response to our posts.

We have to work hard because you don't.

But there's one thing I don't understand here. Why is it whenever you guys type one line, you have to copy/paste the entire content of another post? Are you just trying to compete with us on the amount of space on the page you occupy?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

Quote:
So you want me to repeat the questions?


Keep them short though !!

I'm surprised someone with such credentials can't remember a single question you've been asked. You must be great in a corporate meeting.

I'm just going to copy and paste a few of my questions here as they appeared so as not to further confuse anyone. You pick which ones you want to answer, and then I'll repeat the ones you ignored again.


Quote:
You say you were reading about this device in the British magazines. What did they say? Did they hear an improved sound quality? Do you feel they are not telling the truth? If so, do you feel they are all just part of the conspriarcy to make you buy something or to make you believe you are hearing something? You would seem able to resist both pulls. What's the problem then? If someone wishes to purchase the demagnmetizer and decides it has a positive effect, does that bother you in some manner?


Quote:
You seem to believe 1's and 0's are all the same. Is that the case? Do you believe a CD cleaner or surface treatment could make any audible change in the digital signal?

Have you tried the device you refer to as snake oil? Have you tried any devices or products claimed to enhance the sound quality from a CD source? If you have and you heard nothing, does that conclusively prove someone else might not hear an improvement?

Here's one I remember you liked ...

Quote:
We all understand 1's and 0's, don't we?


Quote:
After all, cables are cables, are they not?

This isn't a question but I thought it was important ...

Quote:
1's and 0's are digital. It's the "everything in between" that's not. But then I'm no digital expert like you are.

Now this one is, I think, rather important ...

Quote:
Alan, what if the results of applying the demagnetizer are real but the cause is not actually the demagnetization process?


Quote:
What ever happened to thinking for yourself?


Quote:
I was never told when I signed up to be interested in music and audio that I could only listen if there was an explanation attached. Were you?


Quote:
If the process of making a CD sound better had nothing to do with demagnetization but did cause an effect you could distinguish as an improvement, would you be more willing to accept the results?


Quote:
How many of the members here chose their equipment based on specifications? How about your speaker cables? How many know the capacitance per foot of your speaker cables?


Quote:
Are you suggesting everything should be labelled snake oil? Just pick the one with the specs you like and don't concern yourself because it all sounds the same?


Quote:
Just as with cables, shouldn't the "metric" in this hobby be what you hear? If measurements aren't all that important to you, why concern yourself with them at all? If you had your druthers and you controlled Stereophile, which specification or measurement would you throw out and which would you keep? Which is the most important and which the least important when it comes to what you actually hear? If you cannot answer that question, why concern yourself with specs in the first place? Surely you've heard a fifty watt amplifier that performs better than a 100 watt amplifier. I would suspect you've heard a $500 speaker do its job better than a $2k speaker. Why do specs matter at all for you, Alan?

I ask this one quite often and no one who gets asked ever responds. I find that so strange.

Quote:
And I wonder why anyone who truly feels everything sounds the same would be on a subjective review magazine's forum. I know why Ethan is here but I don't understand the rest. It's like going into someone's home and telling them their furniture is ugly and their dog smells bad. Why? Why come to a forum such as this just to insist the entire premise of the magazine is wrong?


Quote:
tell me what distortion spec you would consider sufficient to describe the performance of a transformer coupled, tube type power amplifier? Which measurement tells you how a speaker will sound?

There's that whole string of questions about the duck, it's too much to paste here ...

Quote:
#54767 - 12/08/08 12:34 PM


Quote:
Explain why JGH was wrong when he started Stereophile. Explain how we pick an audio product without listening. Explain why the measurements JA includes in each review are for the most part worthless. And give us the information to prove you know of a designer/manufacturer of high end equipment who does not listen to their designs but simply measures and approves.

Well, that's enough to get you started. It's just a sample of the questions you've ignored over the course of this thread but, if you'll address a few of them, then we might get this thread back on track and stall a few more jumpers.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

I'm surprised someone with such credentials can't remember a single question you've been asked.

I think that's because no one has the patience to wade through endless tomes of pointless blabber.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Alex!!!

Where've you been, little guy?

Calling around to get a better price on a jump off the cliff?

Remember, you've earned it.

tomjtx
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Alex,
The forum has been far more pleasant since I put JV on ignore.

So he is continuing to blather ? No surprise there.
I think Frog will be next :-)


Quote:

Quote:

I'm surprised someone with such credentials can't remember a single question you've been asked.

I think that's because no one has the patience to wade through endless tomes of pointless blabber.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Alex,
The forum has been far more pleasant since I put JV on ignore.

So he is continuing to blather ? No surprise there.
I think Frog will be next :-)

Yeah, looks like he's another guy who wanders the desert for 40 years looking for a point.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Ja, jan could do with being a bit less wordy, really a PITA to read through that stuff and look for a point.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
there is an interesting comparison file that is bundled with
Audio Diffmaker that shows some pretty surprising differences between capacitor types.


I'm not willing to install a program just to hear the example files, but according to the PDF it compares a polypropylene film cap and a ceramic disk. I agree that disk caps are not suitable for passing audio. They're great for bypassing power supplies though.

--Ethan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Jan

Ill be honest, your posts ramble on so much i have no idea what your questions are.


No kidding. At one point I tried answering all the questions put forth by Jan and The Frog and KBK, but it got me nowhere. All three of these guys are simply unable to stay on-topic. No matter what I'd say, or how precisely I'd explain something, they'd reply about something else while tossing worse and worse insults. Pathetic, really. And SAS is no better at addressing the issues, though at least he's a bit less windy.

You'll notice that not one of those four guys have managed to explain why measuring the "Mighty Four" parameters is not sufficient to determine everything that matters about audio reproduction. And it's not for my lack of asking!

--Ethan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Jan

In the corporate world you would be totally ignored, the room would be asleep before you ever made a point. I asked for quick concise questions, you sent an essay !!!

I fell asleep before finishing

Alan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
You'll notice that not one of those four guys have managed to explain why measuring the "Mighty Four" parameters is not sufficient to determine everything that matters about audio reproduction. And it's not for my lack of asking!

Hi, Ethan, I will try that one!

I use some ribbon speakers that have slightly wild impedance variations. Different amps handle the load they present in different ways. If I only used 'the big four' measurements as you mention them, then I'd have a terribly inadequte way of evaluating amplifiers for my specific application. Not all amps with the same 'big four' measurments behave identically into real world speaker situations.

I have found that listening is a pretty accurate 'tool' for my own specific needs.

Now, can you still tell me that your 150 dollar Pioneer receiver is the same as, say, a Krell amp into the complex load of my speakers?

If you wanted to say, "All amps that share the same measurements when faced with Buddha's speakers will sound the same," then fine by me. But all amps are not created identically.

Perhaps JA can help you out with that.

Cheers, man. I'm glad you are here, and I'm glad Jan and Michigan are here, too.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Frog
Are you related to JV ? your answers are even more long winded.

Thank you. I taught him everything he knows. I'm taking that as a compliment, because I translate your "long-winded" put-down of my posts as meaning "having intellectual depth and thoughtfulness". Something yours lack by the barrelful.

You also share the same triat of not actually saying anything, you attack me for being dismissive of the facts yet present absolutely none in rebuttal.

I see. (rolling eyes) Are you related to Ethan? Because I noticed he also has a problem reading and understanding posts longer than 1 line, and has to have everything explained to him in short little bite-sized snippets of information, that you spoon feed to him while it dribbles down his chin. Otherwise, it makes his brain hurt too much, and he gets confused (like you), then pouty and then ornery. So no, it's not that I was "not actually saying anything" in my last response to you. It's that you were "not actually able to read anything". I'm sorry if long posts cause you to think too hard, and you're not used to thinking. Or reading. Or debating your false claims. Out of my kind graces, I'll presume you just got off the short bus, and spoon feed you in snippets of information, the key points you missed in my last post to you:

1) Among other things, I was saying that you're ignorant. I was saying you ignorantly put forth a strawman argument against the Furutech. I was saying you failed to even prove you got the facts right about Furutech's claim for the product. I was referring, as I have said many times now, to your "plastic is not magnetic" argument. Your response to me telling you that you are mindlessly arguing with yourself, on a claim you never proved Furutech made? You repeated that same refuted point in this response. Ok, stop playing with your food. The other kids are going to be jealous of you.

2) I was saying that again repeating the empty claim that the Furutech is "Bullshit!", while ignoring all of the counterclaims I made in my first response here to you (not to mention those of JV's), and thus trying so hard as you do to avoid a rational debate of the product, only makes you look stupider and more ignorant, if that's at all possible. Your response? To stick your fingers in your ear and repeat the mantra that "plastic is not magnetic!".**

(** and yeah, even that's debatable by me. But seeing how easily you get confused, I'm not going to make it impossible for you to try and keep up, by getting into that side debate).

3) I laughed at you for making an appeal to authority (to Jan), an indignant one no less. Where you spouted like a child about being insulted by him because he didn't immediately bow to you stating you had experience in "digital communications", and that this meant you knew "exactly what you were talking about" when you spoke against the Furutech device! Like this is in any way related to metallurgy or magnetism or any of the other aspects you would need to be an expert in, in order to understand these devices! Never mind the response you would have gotten from me if it was. To have it go easier on your brain, here's the SAS (short-attention-span) version for you, of what I just said: DON'T ever make an appeal to authority on these forums again. Among all the logical fallacies I've seen you make, that one's the worst, and the most offensive.

4) Here's the part you missed for the 65th time. The reason you didn't see much from me in rebuttal to your stupid presumptious nonsense about the Furutech, was because I ALREADY COUNTERED YOU A LONG TIME AGO. I kept referring to this fact throughout this thread. You kept ignoring it. Here's me referring to it again, in my last post:

Answer my rebuttal to you, Ethan and those who jumped on your skeptic's bandwagon. It's my first post in this thread, and my first post on this site in 5 months. You can't miss it. How many times do you want me to point it out to you people? Do you need me to take you by the hand and carefully read it to you?

So the question remains, unfortunately. How many times DO you need me to point it out to you?


Your stance is similar to a TV lawyer, you know nothing but as you have seen the light your defence will be to discredit me.

That so? Well, guess what, Charlie? "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!" got one ex-football player off the hook for murder. Apart from that, you don't make much sense. You've already proven that you're the one who clearly doesn't know anything about products that you condemn as "snake oil" before knowing even the first thing about them. Your defence? To repeat the word "Bullshit!" when you're told that you got your facts wrong.

Tell us in simple undisputable terms how these devices work ?

Oh boy. Tell me how "simple" does it have to be for you, before you won't be afraid to actually debate someone on that "extreme snake oil" rant of yours? For the 66th time, see my first post in this thread, for my rebuttal to you, where I have long since answered that question about how the devices work. If you have trouble with the big words or concepts that are too hard for you to understand, just let me know. I am nothing, if not kind, patient and gracious.

Ill tell you why they dont

1 - Plastic is not magentic

You told me that already. I responded to you on that. Several times. What part of "Show me that Furutech claimed plastic was magnetic" did you not understand?

2 - CD's are digital, that means either 1 or 0 there are no other states.

Brilliant. You understand binary 101. You and ten billion other people. And this has what to do with the product you're condemning, exactly?

3 - Im only condemning demagnetizers for CD's so do not bring vinyl into the equation

Well, it's true that it's been other nonthinking naysayers like you in this thread, who've condemned the Furutech LP Demagnitizer. Despite, like you and the CD demag, not knowing a thing about it. But not so fast. You said, and repeated ad nauseum, that "The laws of physics apply, plastic is not magnetic.". Ethan, who might as well be related to you since he can't read so well either, said, "vinyl is plastic". Ok then. Since you're arguing that plastic can not be magnetized, by your crap about eddy currents and MM cartridges generating magnetic fields and somehow being affected by the level of magnetism in the plastic, it sounds like you don't even know what you're saying! (Let alone what others are saying to you). Explain this discrepancy in your position.

To put a twist on your own words: "The fact that you have offered no defence of your arguments against the Furutech, other than that of attacking people's right to refute your unproven claims, further demostrates that you are just being a hifi groupie blindly following the herd. "

Food For Thought Dept.

You also wrote:

"I'm still confused as to why you keep on fighting against this demagnetizer."

(apparently unaware of the irony that you're the one confused about how the demagnitizer even works).

"Im not advocating specification's as a final decider on anything, what i am saying is there needs to be metrics of some sort for any tweak to be believeable."

(apparently unaware of the irony that you failed to research any metrics, before loudly pronouncing the product "extreme snake oil").

"There are hundreds of potentially silly tweaks that i can give credence to. An example would be a vibration stone on a CD player, it seems obvious at first glance that this is BS but it could be that the reduction in vibration enables more accurate laser tracking and therefore better bit resolution. This doesnt match my own thoughts but is at least plausible. There is nothing that gives credence to a demagnetizer working on a CD."

(apparently unaware of the irony of you suggesting that if one understands a controversial product better, they may find it more plausible than BS, while you've proven your problem is you don't understand anything about the controversial product you're condemning).

Since I know you're going to have difficulty with all those many words (even if they're your own), to dumb that down for you, what that all means is: You ought to listen more to your own BS, that you're spouting off to others. For there's nothing more ironic than a blind sheep, blindly following the herd as you do, preaching to others about how foolish it is for them to be sheep blindly following the herd.

Is there any way to put up a simple vote ? believe in demagnetizers or not ?

So now instead of engaging in debates on boring things like facts or figures, we debate the validity of audio products, based on the popularity polls of personal opinions about whether they work or not? Brilliant! Score another one for the "Pro Audio Community". I'm sure this is exactly how Thomas Edison got started.

michiganjfrog
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

No kidding. At one point I tried answering all the questions put forth by Jan and The Frog and KBK, but it got me nowhere. All three of these guys are simply unable to stay on-topic. And SAS is no better at addressing the issues, though at least he's a bit less windy.

LOL! Still truth-challenged I see, eh Ethan? As usual, you haven't responded to a single thing I've asked you, or a single challenge I've made against you. e.g.: I asked you to prove your accusation in this thread, that I "chickened out" of our debate - or withdraw it. Where the heck is your response to that? SHOW ME. Again, you've decided to continue practicing your cowardly deceit, and ignored my request that you back up your accusation, only to attack me while hiding behind others - like we see above.

Next. In another fit of irony, you write "All three of these guys are simply unable to stay on-topic.". But then right after that, you write:

You'll notice that not one of those four guys have managed to explain why measuring the "Mighty Four" parameters is not sufficient to determine everything that matters about audio reproduction. And it's not for my lack of asking!

Well as I've pointed out to you already, that's NOT the topic of this thread!! The "3 or 4 parameters of amplifier measurement" that you hijacked this thread with, has nothing to do with the "extreme snake oil" of the "Furutech Demagnitizers", which IS the topic of this thread. So number one, stop making false accusations against others that you're guilty of. And number two, I'm going to ask you again, stick to the subject of the thread.

Now, about the actual thread topic; here's what I wrote to you and asked of you. If you're not lying, then show me where you responded to it (as you claim above):

I'll ask you again to stop trying so hard to avoid debating the facts of the Furutech product that started this thread: address my challenges to you before you try to launch one at me. Here is the post you are avoiding:

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/printthread.php?Board=rants&main=54783&type=post

Here are the questions in my response to you, that you have carefully been hiding from:

Which is why, in keeping with the subject of this thread, I feel compelled to ask you Ethan, something that I have always wondered: what is magnetism? How does it work, and what causes it? How can a magnet move a piece of metal without touching it? Why do some alloys make good magnets and not others? Since you know so much about "science education", can you answer these questions for us Ethan? (Important: **Ethan only please!** I will not accept answers on this from anyone else. I uh, only trust him as a source of information. <---).

Problem is, you don't just run away from my words to you, you run away from your own! Amid all your blather about amplifier measurements that you're trying to distract us from, you have yet to prove your assertion on the CD demagnitizer you called "snake oil", and support your own words.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
You'll notice that not one of those four guys have managed to explain why measuring the "Mighty Four" parameters is not sufficient to determine everything that matters about audio reproduction. And it's not for my lack of asking!

I just demonstrated it in multiple prior posts Ethan, from your own previous statements. You can lie all you want, but remember, it is not us, but the public that sees your deceptions, and it is the public you have to answer to.

By the way, Michigan, I would guess Ethan was missing for several weeks and pulled out because I had exposed him falsifying room data/graphs (later falsifying RS meter frequency response data/graphs). He was attempting to defend himself during almost all of July by changing setups, reverseing his positions from previous posts (that sounds familiar) and other misleading, unethical tatics. I believe that was the same time your gathering was suppose to take place.

Interesting that while some of his cohorts condemn "snake oil", these same individuals continue to praise Ethan despite his unethical data manipulation and other dunethical behaviours. Maybe it is good to read the article linked below.

http://www.boundforsound.com/reviews.htm#Truth

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
excellent response, Alan :-)

It appears that some people think they can change another's perception of reality if they just talk enough.

Nice backpatting, Tom! Way to confirm your membership in the short bus camp. Here's where you're confused: in no way shape or form am I trying to change Welsh's "perception of reality". I may be laughing at his skewered "perception of reality", and the fact that you, him, Ethan, AlexO, all admit that you get confused when having to try to understand any arguments longer than 7 words. And what that says about why eternal skeptics like you fail to understand even the basics of what you are skeptical of. In no way am I under any pretense of trying to change his or your, "perception of reality", nor do I care about that. Just showing that the "perception of reality" you all share on these Demagnitizer tweaks you prematurely condemn, is evidently based on your own stupidity, presumptions, miscalculated understanding of the product, lack of in-depth research, absence of any actual contact with the product in question, absence of any actual facts related to the actual product, and your general ignorance of the world at large, is enough to make me happy. Thank you for asking! Don't forget to put me on ignore, btw. And yourself too, because you can't even live by your own standards. Your ad hominem posts aside, I have yet to see you have yet to make an intelligent contribution to this discourse. Obviously, you can't. Otherwise, you'd have done so already. Maybe you think we won't notice that little fact, if you just talk enough.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
..., the room would be asleep before you ever made a point. I asked for quick concise questions, you sent an essay !!!

I fell asleep before finishing

DUP is gone, only to be replaced by visitors from planet Windbag.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Frog

More long winded waffle

Tell me how demagnetizers work, what do they do ? Im not interested in anyones website, im asking you.

No more waffle

Alan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:

Quote:
You'll notice that not one of those four guys have managed to explain why measuring the "Mighty Four" parameters is not sufficient to determine everything that matters about audio reproduction. And it's not for my lack of asking!

I just demonstrated it in multiple posts winer, from your own previous statements. Remember, it is not us, but the public that sees your deceptions, and it is the public you have to answer to, not us.

By the way, Michigan, I would guess winer pulled out because I had exposed him falsifying room data/graphs (later falsifying RS meter frequency response data/graphs), and he was attempting to defend himself during almost all of July, attempting to change setups, reverse his positions from previous posts (that sounds familiar) and other misleading, unethical, and deceptive tatics. I believe that was the same time your gathering was suppose to take place. That is probably why he was missing for some weeks on your string.

By the way, he still has not refuted a single bit of evidence I presented back then. Just dodges like he does now.

Uh, YUP. That all sounds like Ethan all right. It's all coming back to me. Why did I think that 5 months later, he'd have learned from that sorry debacle of his, where he used every excuse he could think of to pull out of a test he had so much bravado going in? Or at least had the maturity and the good sense to shut his piehole about it, and not repeat the very same mistakes he's made since then? It's almost as though Ethan seems to live in his own bubble, and think that if he repeats a piece of deceit often enough, or runs away from a challenge often enough, people can't see that or won't realize he's being deceitful. Maybe it's because this "audience" he continually speaks directly to when he's addressing an opponent, well he can't really see them. That's why they're called "lurkers". So as we know from his "scientifical" posts on audio, if Ethan can't really see something, then it isn't really there.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that Ethan voted for Bush twice. Because like Bush, he believes that if he's called on an argument that he knows he's lost (as I've seen you do repeatedly in this thread re: his "Big 4"' (previously "Big 3") amp measurements), and he knows responding to it will only make him look stupid, then he believes that by ignoring it, he can maintain his "expert" status. He can always use excuses to tell his "audience" why he's ignored the arguments that have defeated his. Such as his opponent's post went on too long (he used that on me many times). Or, he can simply lie and say he's already responded to the arguments (yes, he used that on me here as well). Then when asked to show where he responded to the arguments.... well, I have asked him this very thing just now, and I predict he'll ignore that. Welp, at least Ethan must get a lot of excercise, from running away from his own words so much. Not to mention that of everyone else's, if they are too challenging for him. I daresay, if this board we're the wild west, he'd shoot you in the back. And then miss, because of how incompetent he is. And then when you turned around to confront him, he'd blame the misfired attempt to kill you on whoever was the closest guy next to him.

And that pretty much tells anyone all they need to know about Ethan Winer. In the words of the Wizard of Oz of the Audio World himself, "I rest my case".

zane9
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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
... In the words of the Wizard of Oz of the Audio World himself, "I rest my case".

Highly unlikely, but we live in hope.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Frog

More long winded waffle

Tell me how demagnetizers work, what do they do ? Im not interested in anyones website, im asking you.

No more waffle

Alan

Oh boy. I kind of predicted that. Well that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? Clearly, if you don't even understand how a demagnetizer works, and if by your limited cognitive skills and your short attention span, even my dumbed down responses are still too confusing for you, and on top of all that you're not even able to understand how to surf the web and do any research yourself to understand the product you've condemned as "extreme snake oil", then by George, there's definitely no point trying to have a productive debate with you.

You've explained to us all quite well, just why you chose to rant against and condemn well reviewed products like the Furutech Demagnitizers, despite having never tried the products, knowing nothing about the products, and even getting your facts wrong on the products, and being unable to defend any of your erroneous claims on the products, when challenged to by me or others here. I say, don't worry your little head about it any further Alan. I am dismissing you from the challenge of debating your argument, and tiring yourself needlessly with responses that go on for more than 7 words, and tax your mental faculties, making you all nervous and grumpy. You can go play HackySack with the other kids now in the schoolyard - I'm sure that will be more fun for you. No really, go on! Scoot! Go on. Go. Guh. G--

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

I thought the case was rested, but the guilty verdict and sentence (death by drowning in a verbal tidal wave) was rendered only with respect to Ethan. The combo prosecutor-jury-judge is still convicting Alan.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
I use some ribbon speakers that have slightly wild impedance variations. Different amps handle the load they present in different ways.


Yes, but whatever failings one amp may have compared to another, those four parameters will reveal it completely. I think what you're getting at is that measuring steady state distortion into a dummy resistor load might miss the more severe loading that happens at some frequencies with your ribbons. Yes? The solution is simple - measure the amp's distortion at the worst-case lowest impedance. Or measure it at the speaker terminals to be absolutely certain the test is real world for your particular speakers. Problem solved, no magic needed.


Quote:
I have found that listening is a pretty accurate 'tool' for my own specific needs.


Listening is fine! But it's less reliable than measuring if you know what to measure and do it as described above with a real-world load. Of course, even when listening, all you are listening for is the same "Big Four" parameters! Just that you're using ears instead of a 'scope and distortion analyzer.


Quote:
Now, can you still tell me that your 150 dollar Pioneer receiver is the same as, say, a Krell amp into the complex load of my speakers?


I have no idea how my $150 Pioneer would fare with your speakers. If I had your speakers I'd likely use separate power amps, along the lines of the DUP-style Crowns in my upstairs studio that drive my big-ass JBLs. But the Pioneer is fine for me because it drives only self-powered studio monitors through the line outputs. In this case the power amp section is irrelevant.


Quote:
But all amps are not created identically.


Agreed fer sher. My point here isn't so much that all amps are the same, as that we can readily assess everything needed using only four parameters. This is what the believers object to so strongly. They claim there's more to audio reproduction than that, and they cite imagined specs such as "musicality" and "revealing" and even that PRAT nonsense. This comes up less with power amps than expensive wires where the vendors have no legitimate way to show why their speaker cables are better than zip wire. So they invent BS terms.

Likewise for demagnetizing CDs and LP records, the subject of this thread. Unless the heads of Furutech are idiots, which I doubt, all that's left is dishonesty. So all they can do is pretend to reject standard testing and claim there's more to it than "science" knows.

Anyway, I think modern amps of equal power, and assuming competent design, are more alike than many realize. I stipulate "competent design" because so much of the boutique stuff out there is clearly incompetent. I'm pretty confident saying that any modern Crown power amp will sound exactly like any modern Bryston or other well-respected brand of the same power capability (and able to drive, say, 2 Ohms) when used with your speakers.

--Ethan

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
Tell me how demagnetizers work, what do they do ? Im not interested in anyones website, im asking you.
No more waffle

Alan, this pretense on your side of the debate (if you can call it that) is getting tiresome. You asked for my questions. I gave you the Reader's Guide Digestable Version of them. You claim they are too voluminous to comprehend. I said pick the ones you wish to answer. You said there were too many for you to follow.

If you just do not wish to participate in this thread, say so. But stop being such a winer.

If sentences of more than a handful of words are beyond your comprehension, what am I to make of that sterling resume you posted? I was expected to read and comprehend everything you've accomplished in your life since potty training. And I read it - but now I do not understand it. You posted, "I personally responsible for the digital communication aspects of these systems, including cobranet and SDH. These are employed in life safety applications, i better know what im doing.(spelling and grammar all your's)"

I truly do not wish to drag this thread further off into the weeds. But how on Earth is your statement possibly true when you cannot comprehend more than five words strung together or more than "It can't" as an explanation?

Please, understand I am not attacking you but merely trying to understand why you are still here if this is all so damn complicated for you.

You could go back and find Frog's explanation of how the demagnetizer operates and how it operates on a CD disc.

But that's too much for you.

I mean, reeeeeealy, Alan!

Who dresses you in the morning?

OK, now stop, Alan.

We're going to stop for a minute and you can collect your thoughts from the floor. Take a deep breath because we're about to move forward again and this may come as a bit of a lurch for you.

Ready? Let's go.

Look, I'll make this as simple as I can without chancing that I will post too many words in a row for you to deal with. I suspect you and the other leapers already had your eyes crossed and your brain (a collective of one) scrambled after, "Alan, ... ".

Look at the first post Frog made in this thread.
http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/dosea...&fromprof=1

OK? There's the answer to your question, not that it hasn't been repeated numerous times or been available to you all this time.

Now, and I know this is going to take some effort on your part, would you kindly select a few of my questions and provide answers to them. Then please proceed to discuss Frog's response without saying, "Nope" or "Bullshit", without claiming Frog and I write too many words for you to follow and with some degree of staying on topic and not just launching another round of back and forth about how much you dislike Frog and me.

Is that possible now that everything has been placed on a platter, deposited in front of you, and made as simple as it possiibly can get?

ncdrawl, you do the same since you too seem incapable of digesting a thought more complicated than, "You guys should respect Ethan more."

This is it, guys!

This is the thread. Answer a few questions and we can pull this thing out of the ditch. Continue to not participate in the thread and there's little point in continuing other than insulting other people can feel like so much fun when you feel so damn superior to them.

May Belt
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Re: Extreme Snake oil

Let me try to take the discussion further by spelling it out.

Welsh Hi Fi says "I know all about digital processing."

YES. The Truism involved is that the whole concept around digital processing is that once the information has been stored in digital form, then it cannot be corrupted or altered. Once the 0s and 1s are stored on the CD, then that is it, they cannot be altered. You cannot knock off a bit of the treble, you cannot knock off a bit of the bass, as you might choose to. The information is there, in digital form, stored inside the disc, and cannot be altered. This much is not being challenged, certainly not by me and probably not by you.

However, what happens next is that Welsh Hi Fi JUMPS. He jumps over from 'talking technical about digits' into saying that, THEREFORE, you cannot change the SOUND !!!!! He suddenly jumps into a whole new area whilst allowing his specialist knowledge in digits to blinker him. He appears to use his specialist knowledge as a 'comfort blanket' - to keep him warm and safe - away from events unfolding around him and from people who might be expecting him to think !! The same thing seems to happen with Ethan. Neither of them are prepared to admit that many of the people describing improvements in the sound they can now hear from applying a demagnetiser to a CD have an EQUAL understanding about digital information storage !! The fact that they can hear improvements from a digitally encoded disc must be as incomprehensible to them as it is to Welsh Hi Fi and Ethan !! But, having tried that particular technique, they are prepared to describe to others what they have heard !!

Because SOUND is another area - separate from the digits. SOUND has more facets than a Buckminster Ball. AND, this is where Welsh Hi Fi's knowledge of digital processing is of no more help. Of no more help to any other person who might not have the same technical knowledge but who is, nevertheless, extremely interested in the pursuit of pleasure from listening to music.

Welsh Hi Fi keeps repeating, like a mantra, "You can't change the sound of a CD (meaning the digits stored on it) by doing (whatever) you are saying you are doing."

Conventional theory on digital processing says that you cannot change the DIGITS, once stored on a disc, to create better height in the music, better width, better depth, better separation of instruments, better definition etc, by colouring the edge of the disc, or by applying a chemical to the Label side of a disc, or by cryogenically freezing a disc, or by applying a demagnetiser to a disc etc, etc. THAT is why there is such a heated controversy raging around all these things.

But you CAN change the SOUND by doing any of those things - AND create better height in the music, better width, better depth, better separation of instruments, better definition etc and this is EXACTLY what numerous people have been reporting !!!!! From EXACTLY the SAME digital information on the disc !!

Intelligent people describe what they have experienced, people who have as much technical awareness as Welsh Hi Fi, but who KNOW what they HEARD !!! And who are prepared to risk ridicule by informing people about what they have heard !! And who, surely, cannot come under the category described by Buddha of being "primitive audiophiles" or who NEED "certain potions and elixirs" to enable them to 'get into their music' !!

Along the lines I have described I am observed something similar happening on such as the Propeller Head Plaza site of Audio Asylum. This section is used mainly by people wishing to discuss technical matters. Fine, no problems there. They discuss technical matters to their hearts content. BUT, then, they will sometimes JUMP and someone will introduce what a particular component, or a particular circuit design SOUNDS like. This opens up the discussion to many other people who ALSO have an opinion on what something SOUNDS like - even though they do not wish to be involved in any discussion of a TECHNICAL nature. Suddenly, the original (technical) group get 'uppity' and resent the non technical people encroaching on what they considered THEIR territory. What they are not appreciating is that any 'tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor' has as valid a claim to an opinion on how something 'sounds' as they might have !!! And, what they are also not appreciating is that it was THEY who had originally JUMPED into the arena of 'what something sounds like'.

Back to the original subject.

Earlier quote from you, Jan.
>>> "What if the demagnetization is not the actual thing that makes this particular product have an affect? What if what makes this product effective is something we overlooked or hadn't even noticed yet?

What if the designers of the demagnetizer thought they knew how their product worked but they were wrong too and they just stumbled across something they didn't understand but for convenience sake they assigned the efect to their "magnetization" box?" <<<

Quote from JIMV
>>> "Exactly what I asked on another thread. What if the change is real but the cause unknown?" <<<

All examples of people being prepared to put on a 'thinking cap'.

Either Welsh Hi Fi and Ethan think there is 'something going on' which needs investigating and thinking about or they think that there is nothing 'going on', therefore there is nothing to investigate or think about !!

Now, Jan, I am going to put the cat amongst the pigeons and give you an answer to your earlier question:-
>>> "What if the demagnetization is not the actual thing that makes this particular product have an affect? What if what makes this product effective is something we overlooked or hadn't even noticed yet?" <<<

Think polarities !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think Electrets !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Electrets are permanently polarised plastic, yes, but how about a polarisation pattern being created temporarily ? A polarisation pattern which can be changed (reduced/eliminated) by applying such as a demagnetiser ? On BOTH a CD AND a vinyl disc ? Whilst leaving the encoded digits on the CD unchanged and whilst leaving the information stored on the vinyl disc unchanged ?

Now, how many of you are prepared to THINK around those subjects ?

Latest quote from Ethan Winer. :-
>>> "Likewise for demagnetizing CDs and LP records, the subject of this thread. Unless the heads of Furutech are idiots, which I doubt, all that's left is dishonesty. So all they can do is reject standard testing and claim there's more to it than "science" knows." <<<

First Ethan starts his letter to the CEA by introducing the emotive word 'fraud', then asks them "how much they were paid for giving such an award (to the demagnetiser) ?" !!!
Now he is hinting ??????? 'Dishonesty' by 'throwing in the word' "dishonesty" with regard to the head of Furutech !!!!!!!!!!!

All that is NOT left is 'dishonesty'. What is left is Ethan not being prepared to THINK around a problem he has been presented with. The problem that people are 'hearing' things (improvements in their sound) which he cannot come to terms with !!!!!!!!

Regards,
May Belt.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil


Quote:
You'll notice that not one of those four guys have managed to explain why measuring the "Mighty Four" parameters is not sufficient to determine everything that matters about audio reproduction. And it's not for my lack of asking!

That is just sooooooo precious! Classic Winer.

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Re: Extreme Snake oil

You have made numerous incorrect assumptions about my viewpoint, Frog.
I am more a subjectivist than objectivist.

You are the one making ad hominem attacks on most everyone you assume doesn't agree with you.

I don't have a current opinion on the furutech device , I haven't heard it. Furetechs explanation of the device leaves me somewhat skeptical but if someone wants to bring one to my house I would be willing to give it a try.

My dealer friend is going to bring over a 30,000 odin power cord and I am happy to listen to that also.

And with that ,Frog, I will put you on ignore. I have lived too long to waste my time with illogical people like you and JV who think they are more intelligent than they are.


Quote:

Quote:
excellent response, Alan :-)

It appears that some people think they can change another's perception of reality if they just talk enough.

Nice backpatting, Tom! Way to confirm your membership in the short bus camp. Here's where you're confused: in no way shape or form am I trying to change Welsh's "perception of reality". I may be laughing at his skewered "perception of reality", and the fact that you, him, Ethan, AlexO, all admit that you get confused when having to try to understand any arguments longer than 7 words. And what that says about why eternal skeptics like you fail to understand even the basics of what you are skeptical of. In no way am I under any pretense of trying to change his or your, "perception of reality", nor do I care about that. Just showing that the "perception of reality" you all share on these Demagnitizer tweaks you prematurely condemn, is evidently based on your own stupidity, presumptions, miscalculated understanding of the product, lack of in-depth research, absence of any actual contact with the product in question, absence of any actual facts related to the actual product, and your general ignorance of the world at large, is enough to make me happy. Thank you for asking! Don't forget to put me on ignore, btw. And yourself too, because you can't even live by your own standards. Your ad hominem posts aside, I have yet to see you have yet to make an intelligent contribution to this discourse. Obviously, you can't. Otherwise, you'd have done so already. Maybe you think we won't notice that little fact, if you just talk enough.

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