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CECE
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Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view
Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, DUP. Pro and amateur, listeners and non-listeners, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers are entitled to an opinion. Even really dumb people can have an opinion.

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

and you forgot, the gulliable. The butcher and candlestick maker ain't into wires. The street sweeper uses an Ipod. The magican sells the wires.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Whatever you say. Are you done now with your postings about why wire doesn't have a sound? You've found someone to agree with you. What if we posted about everyone who agrees with our opinion that wire does have a "sound"? Would that convince you to change your mind?

Yiangos
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

In the same analogy Dup,a normal,happily married housewife has a different oppinion regarding "free sex" than a pro.And you know what kind of pro i mean !

tandy
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Is there an author? Sounds like a DUP post.

And what education does the poster (article) have, that DUP recommends? Is he just a knob turner, a simple tech, or more? Looks like DUP is grasping at straws to further his agenda.

Since DUP has repeatedly sidestepped suggestions of reading educational books in Physics/Electronics etc, does that kinda make DUP a liar, intentionally misleading people, and guilty of fraud??? Looks to me like he is kinda guilty of what he is accusing others of?

clarkjohnsen
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

The article itself, and most of the responses, were argument by assertion, the common assertion being, "That can't be!"

Great work there.

clark

gkc
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Congratulations, DUP. You found another deaf pro. There are probably many more out there -- go find some more, and, by all means, let us know where each one of them lives.

Do cables make a difference? Yes, but only for those who can hear and are willing to listen. A huge difference? No, I think not, unless you have a huge system mismatch, and then change to a better match. Then you would hear an improvement, but only if you could hear. If, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, then certainly, in the land of the deaf, everyone can be a pro.

Nothing will make as huge a difference in your system's overall sound as changing speakers (assuming your amplification can drive them). After that, cables can change the sound just as much as different brands of digital or analog program sources. But, again, you must be capable of hearing and willing to listen.

For now, let's drink a tall one to the professionals -- especially those who have taken one too many shots to the ear from standing too close to the drum kit.

mrlowry
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Some quotes from an article where the main premise is supposed to be that cables don

gkc
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Nice job, Mrlowry. You are obviously less volatile, more patient, and more logical than I. Your critique cuts right to the basics and is admirably precise.

Still, I would like to add more. DUP, we are all sympathetic concerning your, er, condition. Really, as music lovers and careful listeners, we are sorry about your inability to hear anything beyond the gross differences between, say, an AR-3 and a Klipschorn. This is okay -- if your hearing challenge is congenital, we all understand that such things happen. But please stop trying to inflict your limitations on the rest of us. Thank you, God bless (pick your own Great Spirit, of course), and happy tunes.

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

not hearing wires and magic blocks means deafness and closed minds. Hearing the difference a wire, or insulation makes open minded and hearing acuity. Which one means gullible? Which wire magic is best, The ones who heat and freeze? The ones who just freeze? Still any merit to freezing CD's? Green pens? Mapingo discs? Why does one claim vacuum sounds better, while the other says air gaps. One says twist this way, the other twists the other way. While cable mfgs have kinda stanadrized on cables for use in power, data,audio. Only high end high priced audio cables seems to have a blend of the month club. A voltage of the full page ad. And circles with lines going one way and the other and then another. I know if the lines ain't lined up, ya waste it!!!!! Wires and cable sdo matter. Broen connectors do cause trouble, so do oxidized ones, that's all pretty much resolved with good quality Nuetriks, etc. God qulaity cablings don't fall apart in hard useage. No magic, no hype. Just proper design and mfg. Mostly pretty inexpensive too. $1,000ft magic wire is like teh "prayer cloth and soem magic water offered recently on tv, by the sharlintins of religion. Send in your "love" gift and receive this magic prayer cloth!!! 21st century, nudnicks still fall for one of the oldest cons ever. Updated for 21st century in HDTV....

Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

DUP, what difference does it make to you whether someone else buys $1k cables? And why do you think you need to tell them they shouldn't? What's it to you?

Jeff Wong
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

THAT IS FANTASTIC JEFF!!!!!!!! SUPERB, KUDOS. FUNNY, YOU HAVE OUT DONE YOURSELF.

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

yOU ARE RIGHT, I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD BUY IT. I am now convince wire matters. I hooked up a new line cord to the BLOSE Acoustic Wave system, incredible, the damn thing never sounded so good. It sounds like a set of WHISPERS, man what was I thinking. Sorry for all the doubt, you guys are right. The IC between teh CD player and BLOSE was upgraded, the damn thing sounds like the best SACD player I have heard.. I will never doubt the need for the right magic wire. Thanks, loads. My bad. It took a long time, but damn, if youse guys wheren't right. Cheers, and Cheers. .........Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, oh oh, I just woke up, man what a nightmare I was having....

tandy
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Look who started this string, and many others. Time after time. It was not the subjectionists. It was you trying to lord it over us. So who is constantly berating and bullying others? Not us.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

DUP, what difference does it make to you whether someone else buys $1k cables? And why do you think you need to tell them they shouldn't? What's it to you?

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Cus' I did once, I was DUPPED. It gave me great insight into the BS it all is. Never Forget is what I beleive now.

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

I didn't start anything. I just posted the OPINION of someone who wrote about it. Then it got good.!!!! The ones who started all this goes back 30 years or so...Monster and other very smart marketeers. Guess you never read teh wall street journal article about them did ya? Years ago, how they did some stuff to peddle wires!!! Smart very smart. I am jealous, very jealous. I coulda' been some one, i coulda' been a contender, I coulda been selling wires. I coulda' been selling a new twist each month. damn i missed out selling ROCKS too.

mrlowry
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Jeff-

This is my nomination for "Best Post Ever!"

Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Just because you did something stupid is no reason to think everyone else is no smarter than you.

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

According to the responses everyone is here. They buy wire and is does something better. Yet to have that happen, must be I is STUPID, if everyone can hear these wires....But then I only did it once, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice....you know the routine.

mrlowry
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

DUP-

I can't speak for anyone else but in my way of thinking, no cable makes a system sound better. They only make a system sound WORSE. It's really a question of how much damage the cable does to the signal. The better cables do LESS damage. I know that I have been guilty of saying, "This cables sounds better than that one" when what I meant to say was "This cable allows the system to be more neutral than that one."

Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Yes, I know how it goes. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, I didn't learn a damn thing the first time.

How about; fool me once, people thought I didn't know what I was doing. Give up and not try again, I proved I didn't know what I was doing.

Jeff Wong
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

DUP & mrlowry - Glad you were entertained. I had fun making it.

tandy
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Nothing wrong with posting a link. But look at all the previous strings you have started harping on the same subject, over and over, trying to lord it over us, and then abandoning the string when your ignorance was exposed. But that does not seem to have stopped your PR campaign.

In fact, I have seen this strategy used over and over at other forums over the years. Seems your group is well orchestrated.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

I don't think the effort is coordinated but I've always wondered why those who do not believe cables can make an improvement are the ones who start threads. Yep, the manufacturers have their advertisements, salespeople sell cables and the magazines review cables, but I've never been on a forum where someone posts, "Cables are important, a layman's point of view". It always seems to be the guys who want to convince us we're nuts that do the posting. Now that seems weird to me.

So, what is it, DUP? What makes you think you need to protect us from ourself?

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

I'm charitable. The EVIL WIRE DEMON has to be STOPPED in my lifetime. Like those creatures in TREMORS, sensing your location the WIRE DEMONS sense your gullibility, and wallet. And ATTACK. These WIRE DEMONS can deplete useable cash, and turn it into useless pieces of metal and plastic. the money coulda been better used for CD's or better components. Polio was wiped out in my lifetime, the cure is coming for WIREITIS, spread through visual contact and verbal assault....from the WIRE DEMON....it knows where your MONEY is!!!! High over priced wires are the Polio of the audio world, it's crippling sanity, it destroys all rational logic, it needs to be DESTROYED, before the next generation of audio fools, let the demon exist.

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Now come on, THESE ARE BEST, not yesterday's model...the Sultan has em,so you know it's best. I thought the other guys with vacuum or was it air, or was it argon, maybe Hydrogen? Certainly someone else has tommorows' BEST. How could THESE be best, if Nuetrik, Switchcraft, Canare, Belden, actually make stuff, rather than maake full page cool ads. Do i want Zen, Haromix,XLO,JPS,Shunyatatatatatatatata,Formosa,how come so many make so many different wires, and yet they are all teh BEST!!? http://66.221.70.214/letter.php

tandy
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

"it's crippling sanity, it destroys all rational logic"

If you are claiming "rational logic", then why are you avoiding the decades old information from college textbooks etc? I thought you claimed you wanted to learn and get closer to the truth.

It seems to me you are also making claims that aren't true? 4 fingers pointing right back at you???

gkc
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

DUP, I thought only religious nuts wanted to save the world. Have you had a recent conversion? a dream? Jacob's Ladder made of zip cord? Hallelujiah! DUP has seen the light, and is now on a crusade, under the sign of the cross, to cleanse the world of evil cable-mongering. Only problem is, he can't hear the enemy.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

DUP, evangelists are charitable. They see saving their flock as a stairway to eternal happiness. I, for one, refuse to let you gain eternal happiness at my expense. You do not, as of this moment, need to have any say in what I do in my bedroom or my listening room. You do not need to protect me at the moment of conception or when they are getting ready to pull the plug. It is of no concern to you whether I smoke, drink or buy fast food or expensive cables. I don't want you to decide whether I should stay in the outside lane if I decide to drive five miles over the speed limit. It is none of your business. Besides, you've already admitted you do things that aren't that smart. That makes you dumber than the rest of us, so why would we want you making decisions for us?

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

We will stay the course. mission accomplished, etc etc. Doing a fine job Brownie....wires are the audio world's weapons of mass delusion

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

It's done all the time, things are always decided for YOU by lotsa dumb shits. Why is the speed limit 65 on a straight smooth super highwya, when my car is designed to crusie at 100MPH all day long, and it does in the coutnry where real drivers use it, without restrictions by DUMBIES, WHY? WHY is there no turn on RED, here but not there? WHY is no parking within 10 feet of the hydrant, not 20 feet? Dummies rule the world, better control through advertising. If they where so smart, why is the world in such calamity and on self destruct mode? With all these intellignet people setting policys, OBEY!!

Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Whether its done "all the time" or not is not a valid argument. You would be laughed out of any serious debate and land in jail should that be your defense in a court of law. Not to mention your examples are ludicrous to the extreme. There are quite obvious reasons for keeping some people under the rule of law.

"It's done all the time" was an argument for slavery and keeping women out of elected office. In some circles "it's done all the time" is an argument for cheating on your wife, your business partners and your constituents. DUP, you sound like someone who wouldn't have any problem with all three if you think "it's done all the time" is a good excuse to continue any activity. In recent months we've even seen a variation of the "all the time" defense applied to torture. And we are at the point where you are attempting to waterboard us into submission with your posts on cables.

The very suggestion that "it's done all the time" is a defense for any activity or judgement that precludes thinking for yourself or having a moral compass that is not set by mob rule or self imposed determinism. It is the direct path to obsequious subservience. If that is your aim, DUP, you won't find many willing particpants here. As a group, I would say, we tend to read, listen and hear new ideas. As a singular entity, you tend to want everyone to become an amorphous blob of conformity that sits flacidly still without thinking or questioning until you find someone who agrees with your "it's done all the time" mentality. "It's done all the time" is merely your newest version of "agree with me or I will continue to pester you". It is a smaller bit of your "I am right and you are wrong" mentality to all of this.

Once again, for the record, you don't have to protect me from what I do to myself. I'm sure many others here feel the same way and would appreciate you doing something productive with your time rather than suggesting we are the sheep who willingly follow along.

So, please, STOP! Please, stop the torture.

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

I think you have a BAD level of comprehenshion. I said it's done all the time, doesn't mean it's OK, are you dull or slow ended? As in lotsa dumb shits SET RULES...your are FORCED to go by....literally under the armed domination just driving on a street...go 100MPH on a flat open highway...when you don't STOP for the flashing lights, they will start shooting, you criminal you. Don't pay your taxes, an amount determined by a bunch of theives (and homos playing with page boys),taking bribes payoffs, and on and on and on) that want your money, if you don't pay, you will pay even more!!! Again RULES set by some DUMB shits, look at congress, CRIMINALS, setting policy for YOU to live by. dumb shits rule the masses, cus they can. Does that sound like I agree, comprede'? And once again it's done all the time....like you ain't following right along, yeah, I'm sure your'e a real rebel. What's also done all the time is people buying WIRE and claiming to hear it...done all the time, don't mean it's right, does it? Actually teh best defense in court is GO TO REHAB.....Congressmen, actors, local and all kinds of "public servants" REHAD baby, except old Kennedys, they slither on, hicup. Young Kennedys take the rehad route, and praised for their choice, after driving into a pole and not being arrested (DUI,?) or fined, nice to be KING, and EXEMPT from the RULES imposed on peons by saidKINGS. Now YOU will determine who should follow and who should be exempt, you said some should be under the RULE, that's what Edie amein, castro, Stalin, Lennon kinda thought too. I don't wanna have YOU for KING,

Jeff Wong
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Looks like a new reality tv show. HA!!!!!

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Got any Musselini, Italian dude in WW2 with him up on the balcony, folding his arms making his speech? Not the one of him hanging upside down AFTER WW2....When he was impotent, before he was clothes line material. HA

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Make one with me hanging myself with some magic wire....with a balloon saying, ahhh, I guess they where right, I can FEEL a difference.

Jeff Wong
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view


Quote:
Got any Musselini, Italian dude in WW2 with him up on the balcony, folding his arms making his speech? Not the one of him hanging upside down AFTER WW2....When he was impotent, before he was clothes line material. HA

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha

Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

I'll give you one point, DUP, you never strain your brain with this stuff.

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Latest "Evangelist" bites the dust....hahahahahahaha, he only got a massage and bought some speed, didn't inhale though, how many nudnicks still give money to these theives and con artists!!! Sad that he had access to white house, since those nudnicks where taken seriously? Man I hope not, what an amazing slurry of turds influence how we should do things. If ya can't get a job, become an evangelists, convince nudnicks they should support all your eal estate, tv studios etc..IRS should investigage every one of em, rember Jimmy Swaggart? Tammy Fae and Jim Baker, Jim Jones, Religion best business tax free plan cons ever developed. The foley dude, on a comitte to PROTECT kids, is out trying to pick em up!! Religon is a bigger con than magic wire, much bigger. Makes wire look irrelenvant

Jan Vigne
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

See the above, preceding post.

CECE
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Have no idea what you mean or are talking bout'. I'm missing something here, Simple Simon read a page, had no idea what it means.

tandy
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

That's ok little buddy.

Buddha
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Great pics, Jeff!

As to the thing about dummies...

I like to look at that 65 mph thing as a "suggestion."

Sometimes, not heeding the government's "suggestion" can lead one to have to pay an excise fee, or "road tax," as I like to call it; but 65 mph...well, Sammy Hagar should write a song about that.

Anyway, cables.

I've tried making them and made some that sounded TERRIBLE!

I hope that's believable - there is a such a thing as a bad cable.

Then, it's all a matter of deciding where the point of diminishing returns is in terms of improving upon the sound of a cable.

I happen to be in the camp that thinks that point happens (relatively) sooner rather than later, but I don't have any problem with my fellow audiophiles examining the extremes.

Plus, the more those same people learn at those extremes, the sooner it will trickle down to a price range where I'd bite!

Worst case scenario: The cable fanatics are paying my excise/road tax for me by taking the risk of traveling/spending at higher speeds than I do!

In travel terms, they're my "cop filters."

(I mean that as a compliment.)

commsysman
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

As an electronics professor, I was bothered for years by the fact that cables made clearly audible differences in the connections of SOME combinations of equipment. Basic Electronic theory does not readily explain this.

Experiments in building cables and testing them using sophisticated test equipment quickly proved that manufacturers' claims regarding exotic materials such as silver and "high-purity" copper and/or capacitance and inductance variables are simply pure bullshit!! There is no correlation between signal distortion and use of special materials (note: digital cables operate in the RF range and special dielectrics are an issue there).

How to explain the clearly audible differences in sound quality?

The difference in sound quality seems to be due to the "masking" effect of ultrasonic and RF currents on the ground conductor and/or shield. This is a non-issue for balanced connections, since the shield carries no signal current. I have never heard a difference between one balanced cable and another.

In unbalanced cables with only a center conductor and a shield, the shield is expected to carry the signal current and also act as a ground; it cannot be a true ground, and carry signal current, and be an effective shield; this is not possible! It can be shown that these requirements are incompatible!

In unbalanced cables, the shield may be terminated at one end only, and a third conductor within the shield used for the "grounded" or "low" side of the signal. This takes care of part of the problem, by protecting the conductors from outside radiation of RF, but the signal wire that carries the "low" side of the AC signal current is still subject to ultrasonic oscillations that may be present flowing from one circuit to the other.

For those unfamiliar with the effect of "masking", consider how an ultrasonic current is used to make high-fidelity tape recording possible. The magnetic iron or other tape particles are not all magnetized by the signal, and those that remain in random states create "hiss" during playback. Using a strong 100 KHZ "bias" signal during recording organizes these unused particles into an inaudible frequency pattern; 99% of hiss is eliminated! BUT...if the bias current is TOO strong, the signal recorded on the tape is distorted in playback because the playback electronics suffer bias shift or overloading due to too much ultrasonic energy on the tape. This is exactly what happens in a cable. The ultrasonic or RF energy present in the cable causes overload in the input circuitry of the unit receiving the signal, and even though this energy is inaudible, the signal suffers some distortion due to circuit overloading.

Manufacturers could help eliminate this problem with filters that strictly limit the frequency response to 20 KHZ in the input circuitry, but many foolishly extend the frequency response much higher because they think the extended frequency response sounds good to prospective buyers: dumb!!

So; if you are unfortunate enough to have unbalanced connections (and audiophile equipment SHOULD be 100% balanced), the best thing is to stick to cables that have three conductors, with the shield teminated at one end only.

And by the way; when Brer Rabbit started to hit the tar baby, he soon found out that it was a big mistake because there was nothing of substance there. That is how I personally feel about trying to respond to anything that DUP has to say....

tandy
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Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Interesting "comm" but if you were to keep up with info from top level scientists etc, you would find out that materials do make a difference. Terminations materials as well. Yes, I agee, you had better learn well beyond "basic electronics theory". That requires you to keep up. From your comments, you obviously have not. In fact, some info is decades old.

Just used equipment measurements, a meter reader? I see you did some guessing as well.
As far as using the term BS, you should know what you are talking about before making foolish comments.

"I have never heard a difference between one balanced cable and another."

>>Of course not. Although not perfect, theoretically, you should know there is a cancelling effect, just like with any spurious signal etc; so no sonic difference should be noted. However, there are disadvantages with using a balanced designed component.

I am sure you will disagree with some comments, but as I mentioned earlier, one needs to keep up with the knowledge base. Hopefully, you will take this knowledge and teach it to your students.

CECE
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Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Do cables make a difference....from a pro's point of view

Balanced does not necessarily matter in a home enviroment, for home use. It doesn't "sound better" either. You running hundreds and hundreds of feet of signal cable all over a studio? Nope. Amp and pre amp that is LIMITED to only 20-20K sounds pretty lifeless. You gotta be kidding me. I supposed slew rates should be limited too? i guess i have all problematic stuff since i think my amps and pre amps go out to 500K and slew rates of like around 800VuS speed, and the abilty to make it come alive. Why would you want to limit anything. U must like BLOSE then, no highs no lows, must be BLOSE. 1% THD, all that euphonic distortions...no such thing as too much POWER, Freq range, low distortion and SPEED. If you limit the amps/preamps, why have ribbons that go out to 40K, and they make it all real. Better get a hearijng check.

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