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emptystring
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Dilemma with Epos M5

A while ago I had posted about bi-amping with the Epos M5 - I still haven't gone bi-amp, but now I have another dilemma, and hopefully you guys can help out =)

Right now I'm running the M5 with the Exposure 2010s integrated amplifier - I love the sound that this setup produces - great high/mid and controlled bass with natural crossovers. However, I'm sort of a bass-head and would like to hear more of it - my M5 delivers quality bass, but sometimes I wish it simply had more in quantity.

So I looked into some floorstanders - JBL could deliver the quantity, but it doesn't have any of the "musical" feel that Epos gave. So I looked into the Epos M16 and it gave a much better performance.

On the other hand, I'm also considering keeping the M5 and changing the amplification process - I could either get a power amp (exposure has a power amp in the same series) for the low-freq input, or I can get a more powerful integrated/pre+power combo. (But I just might get greedy in the end and STILL get a pair of floorstanders)

Disregarding room acoustics, cables, etc, what would be the better option?

Thanks =)

59mga
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

When you mention "quantity" are you speaking of volume, as in dB level, or a lower bass frequency? (The M5 bottom end is 60 Hz.) The only JBL's that I am familiar with are the L880/890 models. Both very nice "musical" speakers but if you area serious listener wanting great detail, yes, the Epos M16 (better yet the M16i) are a better choice.

By "changing the amplification process"...do you mean getting a powered sub woofer? Beings you're a "bass-head" getting a sub may be the better choice.

linden518
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

I second that. A quality sub would be the quickest fix, rather than getting a new pair of speakers or going nuts about matching components again.

bifcake
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

Sub integration is not a trivial exercise. In fact, I've yet to hear a system with a well integrated sub.

RGibran
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

Taming some bottom heavy floorstanders is not exactly a walk in the park either.

RG

emptystring
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

Thanks for all the replies - this is exactly the type of feedback i'm looking for.

mike - i guess i was trying to say it doesn't "thump" enough, if you know what i mean. i like way M5 presents all my music, but sometimes i just feel like there isn't enough "oomph" coming from drums or bass. the JBL is great in delivering the oomph but it lacks all the musical details that Epos can produce. and by "changing the amplification process", i meant getting a power amp - because Exposure has a power amp for the 2010s series, and i was wondering how it would sound if i connected the integrated/pre into the treble and power amp into the bass.

rg - yes, i am well aware of that, so i'm not looking to get huge floorstanders...probably just smaller ones.

but being in Hong Kong, a) none of the dealers will provide home audit as it's just not practiced here, and b) not all the shops carry all the brands i'm looking for, and c) transportation is a pain to lug my own amp/speakers around for testing because parking is $$$.

i've narrowed it down to a few floorstander models, though - some i've audited in-shop, and some based on review from friends...

Monitor Audio RS6 (i've heard the RS5 with exposure integrated amp, but felt like the RS5 isn't really any better than my M5...not quite sure about RS6, either)
Epos M16i (audited the exact setup as i have at home for about 2 minutes before the dealer turned it off and asked me if i wanted to buy the speakers, very common practice in HK retailers)
JBL L880 (but this one is very likely to be eliminated)
Klipsch RF-63 or 62 (i suspect this will behave like the JBLs - have all the power but no musical detail)
JBL L100 (someone recommended this to me, but i don't really know much about vintage JBLs, and i probably will have to get a new amp for it)

if you have any other amplifer+speakers combination, please feel free to suggest as i'm open to swapping out the entire set as well.

again, thanks for all the help =)

RGibran
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

I love the Epos line but have to question, based on your desires, if one of their 4 ohm 87/88dB floorstanders paired with your Exposure will get you where you want to go. I do think the bass response would be better than that of the Monitor Audios. I can only suggest you return to audition and explain to the asshat you

59mga
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5


Quote:
I love the Epos line but have to question, based on your desires, if one of their 4 ohm 87/88dB floorstanders paired with your Exposure will get you where you want to go.

Good point. If Epos is a preference give a listen to the M22i. A couple other choices that are musical and have deep bass are the B&W 683 as well as the Quad 22L2.

emptystring
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

rg - i think i know what you mean. because these speakers are 4-ohms, i barely have to turn the volume knob to hear them - i've never turned the knob past 8 o'clock for music. It seems like I'd have to turn it way up to get the bass, but then the music would be too loud.

So maybe i should look into speakers with higher impedance? Or if I want to keep using Epos speakears, should I try a different amp?

I did listen to the 683 - again, I like the sound coming from them but I don't feel like it'd be a significant improvement over what I have now. I've also heard that they are hard to drive, and not quite sure if my integrated amp can unlock all of its potentials.

as for Quad - i haven't auditioned that, but the general consensus in HK seems to be that quad is very "slow-sounding", therefore it's only good for female vocals and slow music and definitely not great for rock or anything with complicated layering and dynamic range. but i will give it a shot nonetheless as exposure+quad is actually an available combination at one of the retailers i frequent.

i've also heard that Triangle speakers are great - might also give them a try as they're available here.

simply looking at numbers, what sort of speakers would be a good match for my amp, given what I am looking for? general characteristics are ok - you already mentioned high sensitivity. on the other hand, what sort of amps would be good to drive the Epos M5/M16, which are both 4-ohm/87db?

thanks =)

emptystring
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5


Quote:
I love the Epos line but have to question, based on your desires, if one of their 4 ohm 87/88dB floorstanders paired with your Exposure will get you where you want to go. I do think the bass response would be better than that of the Monitor Audios. I can only suggest you return to audition and explain to the asshat you
jackfish
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

If you are considering loudspeakers as large as the Revel F12 or at a cost as high as the Triangle Esprit Antel EX, what happened to the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature IIs? $2000 a pair and a sound you won't get from anything you've listed so far. Frequency response: 29Hz to 29kHz 3dB
32Hz to 21kHz 1.5dB

emptystring
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5


Quote:
If you are considering loudspeakers as large as the Revel F12 or at a cost as high as the Triangle Esprit Antel EX, what happened to the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature IIs? $2000 a pair and a sound you won't get from anything you've listed so far. Frequency response: 29Hz to 29kHz 3dB
32Hz to 21kHz 1.5dB

that speaker is on my "trying to find this brand in Hong Kong" list. the vandersteen website does have the name/contact of a Hong Kong distributor, but this brand is not listed on the distro's website. so i'm going to give them a call tomorrow and see.

update - i just made a few calls to Vandersteen's US office and their office for international distribution - it turns out that there is no distributor in Hong Kong at the moment.

however, they also said that I could buy directly from them - the price will be 75% of the original price plus air freight fees to Hong Kong. tempting - but it's hard to spend this sort of money without listening to it first =/

and the 2Ces might be a tad too big - my listening space is about 9' x 13', with a wall to the left and open area (dining) to the right. both the Revel and the Triangle have smaller footprints and are somewhat friendly to close-to-backwall positioning, as the space from the backwall to the speaker is at most 2' for my living room.

jackfish
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

There is the Von Schweikert VR-2 as well.

emptystring
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5


Quote:
There is the Von Schweikert VR-2 as well.

looked into that too...the distributor in Hong Kong only carries the VR-4 JR and above, and they told me that VR-2 is no longer available =(

RGibran
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

Are you saying that zero on the volume control is at six o

emptystring
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5


Quote:
Are you saying that zero on the volume control is at six o
RGibran
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

Thanks for the pic of the room, this helps all of us.

I would not try to talk you out of some new floorstanders. I say go for it!

However, a few comments if you will allow.

The Audioquest is fine, but is known to be rolled off at both frequency extremes. It

emptystring
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5


Quote:
Thanks for the pic of the room, this helps all of us.

I would not try to talk you out of some new floorstanders. I say go for it!

However, a few comments if you will allow.

The Audioquest is fine, but is known to be rolled off at both frequency extremes. It

emptystring
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

a small update for those of you still reading this...

so i re-arranged some furniture:
- moved the couch back to its initial position (as seen in the picture posted earlier in the thread)
- pushed the epos speakers back, so now they're only 2' from the backwall
- decreased the toe-in

the bass response and imaging was instantly better - the music was still centered but it wasn't as concentrated as before.

and then by luck i came upon an used Onix A-120MKII, which had received good reviews back in 2006, and a couple of my friends are using the newer model RA-120 (same everything except for improved remote and av-bypass function). i went to have a listen and eventually decided to give it a try, so i brought it home.

well, now the kick drums and the bass lines are really coming out from my speakers. The Onix amp might not be as delicate as the Exposure amp, but it's not too far behind in that department and I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of that for the "oomph" that the Exposure was lacking.

Prior to buying the Onix amp, I actually went to audit the Monitor Audio RS8, driven by Musical Fidelity X-T100. The audit was great, but this pair was not meant for my living room because the bass is simply too strong. i suspect the same might happen with Revel..not quite sure about Triangle speakers though.

on the other hand - now i've got more power coming from my amp, maybe i will consider smaller floorstanders. i will probably go back to the RS6 with this amp and see how that will go.

RGibran
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

Thanks for the update. Always great to hear how folks are getting on.

Most folks just come here to rape us of our vast knowledge, never to return. Makes one feel so violated.

So, it would seem the Exposure was a little too polite in the bass department. I wonder if Stephen M. experienced this. Hopefully he will give us his thoughts.

I do think the F12's would be too much speaker for that room but ya never know. One sure way to piss off the neighbor is to get too much bass pumping so be cautious.

Great to hear you have been experimenting. Keep us posted.

RG

emptystring
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

Yeah - wouldn't want neighbors banging on my door or filing a complaint against me.

Now that I am armed with more power - I am seriously considering giving the RS6 another chance despite having semi-eliminated this from my selection. It just might give me what I am looking for - the stereophile review on this pair was great, because the reviewer compared it with the Epos M5, and I interpreted it as "the RS6 is just like the M5, but better in bass extension." So I think that's worth at least a re-audit. And since I already spent a bit of money on the amp, I gotta cut back on the speakers, haha.

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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5


Quote:
So, it would seem the Exposure was a little too polite in the bass department. I wonder if Stephen M. experienced this. Hopefully he will give us his thoughts.

In my relatively small room (11 by 13, with 8ft ceilings), I've been consistently impressed by both the quality and quantity of the bass, most recently using Exposure electronics with both the Totem Arro loudspeakers and PSB Alpha B1 loudspeakers (with SubSeries 5i subwoofer). The Exposure never seemed bass-shy to me. I get tight, clean bass that I can easily follow. That said, I'm far from a basshead.

emptystring: Did you try listening with the speakers in their current position and the couch against the backwall? I wonder how things would sound then. Of course, if you're happy with the way the system sounds now, there's no big reason to continue messing with things.

emptystring
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Re: Dilemma with Epos M5

Stephen -
that i did not, as my couch was never pushed against the wall - there was always some space.

but i'm pretty happy with what I have now - the drum track on Nine Inch Nail's "Just Like You Imagined" improved significantly in terms of "punchy-ness" without compromising other aspects of the song (you should give it a listen - one of the best instrumental tracks from Trent, a good test for layering/imaging/handling distortion and bass response).

in fact - i'm liking it so much that i probably won't consider changing speakers for now - with this amp, my neighbors might get angry if i get ANY floorstanders. so now i'm looking at upgrading cables...but that's another story for later.

thanks for all the help =)

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