jschweid
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Digital...Analog...what's the deal?
Monty
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While the focus of blu-ray/HD-DVD has been on the video aspect, I almost feel that audio has been ignored.

You would be right. Even worse, with the move toward digital storage devices we aren't likely to see any motivation to getting better sound from discs.

CECE
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DSD/SACD is not OBSOLETE as you say. It didn't take off as a mass consumer item like Philips/sony wanted. As did teh CD when it was introduced. DSD smkokes any other recording format. Obviously most people didn't care the CD sounded fine. the majority of people don't buy $1,000/ft pieces of wire either. No company can survive selling 3 items a year. Philips/Sony need millions of pieces sold SACD discs wasn't found to be wanted by the masses. they also priced the stuff way in outer space to be for real.

jackfish
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I have a SACD, DVD-A, HDCD universal player. SACD and DVD-A multichannel disks still sound great when down mixed to stereo. I still haven't figured out if HDCD is a hoax. But I'm restoring my Grateful Dead collection with them anyways.

59mga
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Quote:
DSD/SACD is not OBSOLETE as you say. It didn't take off as a mass consumer item like Philips/sony wanted. As did teh CD when it was introduced. DSD smkokes any other recording format. Obviously most people didn't care the CD sounded fine. the majority of people don't buy $1,000/ft pieces of wire either. No company can survive selling 3 items a year. Philips/Sony need millions of pieces sold SACD discs wasn't found to be wanted by the masses. they also priced the stuff way in outer space to be for real.

If memory serves me correctly...When the CD first appeared it was much more expensive than vinyl. But it was considered "hi-tech", and was a totally different format, so people were willing to pay the price. But when folks see a DSD/SACD they think CD and say to themselves, "They all look the same...can't be much, if any, difference."

CharlyD
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What I cannot figure out, after spending almost 5 large for a Levinson CD player is WHY high end audio companies have not really endorsed better digital media.


I completely agree! I'm at a complete loss to understand why hi-end audio vendors continue to introduce very expensive players for a seriously constrained format. The "perfect sound forever" red book CD format was introduced nearly 25 years ago, and early players (and remastered content) were justifiably considered abysmal by the audiophile market. But, the technologies for mastering and playback have gone through several generations and long ago approached extracting the full capability of the CD format.

I can't see how we consumers can be expected to invest serious cash for new players/DAC's that offer, at best, nuanced improvements over the players we purchased several years ago - but were considered state-of-the-art at the time.


Quote:
While the focus of blu-ray/HD-DVD has been on the video aspect, I almost feel that audio has been ignored.


Delivery of high-quality audio was certainly a key consideration in the definition of the new HD disk formats. The Blu-Ray disk can support many audio codecs including lossless formats and can also support up to 6 channels of uncompressed PCM at 24-bit/192 kHz. I know that you prefer stereo, Jonathan, but my fantasy is to be immersed in playback of concerts or opera rendered in full HD video and hi-res, multichannel sound. I also think that it's quite likely that the main music systems for most of us is also our home theater system with at least 6 speakers. Multi-channel formats can easiy be mixed down to two and the TV can be left off if you wish.

The increasing availablilty of high-speed internet connectivity (>3 Mbs) with 10X greater speeds on the horizon is making the distribution of HD content via e-commerce much more feasible. MusicGiants is currently offering albums mastered in 24-bit/96kHz formats. These downloads, however are "protected" with DRM and are bound to PC they were downloaded to. There is no way that I'm aware of for getting that multi-channel, hi-rez content to your music system without co-locating the PC and connecting into the analog outputs of the PC sound card (ugh!).

I feel that there is considerable opportuntity for the hi-end audio industry if they could offer devices that embraced these new technologies and delivery methods. The features of such an audiophile Digital Media Adapter (DMA) could include:

  • Network connectivity for streaming of content from a PC or media server
  • Support for DRM to allow playback of protected content
  • HDMI inputs with HDCP support for input from content players and output on HDMI to other video processing or rendering devices in the chain
  • Support for current Dolby and DTS audio formats including the new lossless formats
  • Support for popular lossless audio codecs (e.g. FLAC, Ogg, WMA lossless) as well as lossy formats (MP3, AAC, WMA)
  • USP port on the front panel for playback of content from thumb drives
  • Eight channels of analog output (could be mixed down to two)
  • Digital Signal Processing for mix down and room correction
  • A software control interface that complied with interoperability standards (e.g. DLNA, WSD) for graphic control on handheld devices or integration with home automation systems.

I'll bet that a Meridian, Levinson or Krell could market one of these for less than $10k and the Chinese could offer the same feature set for a quarter the price.

mentalflycoon
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I love my record collection to death but I just can't deny the total and utter superiority of SACD/DVD-Audio. Why the high-end didn't embrace these formats more fully is beyond me. I don't think they're dead just yet, in fact I'll bet we continue to see them offered in the backs of specialty magazines like stereophile for a long time. One major major problem with these formats was/is the total lack of marketing. Pretty much all of my friends know what an iPOD is but when I got my universal disk player and started playing the Hi-res digital formats I discovered that not one of my non-audiophile friends even had a clue that these formats existed. Typical comments went something like this: "Wowie Zowie! Why does it sound like that?! Amazing! Holy crapola! How do I get one? What do you mean it won't play on a normal cd player?" Nowadays if I can get the material I'm looking for in Hi-res I usually will. The truth however, remains. There is way more material on vinyl, way cheaper and far more accessible than anything other than perhaps red book cds which to me seem horribly outdated. If the electronics industry continues it's downward spiral of format wars nobody wins. These nitwits need to agree on a single format and stick to it. The video game industry learned long ago that a constant stream of incompatible formats and equipment eventually ruins companies and the industry as a whole. Just ask NEC, Sega or Atari; each one of these companies made the same mistakes that the audio/video industry is now making. Nobody wants to buy a blu-ray or hd-dvd player only to have the format die 2-5 years down the road. So while most people wait out the format war profits are lost and companies just keep "cutting their noses to spite their faces".

Jim Tavegia
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In this freeze-dired, microwaved, instant potatoes world we live in it is convenience that wins. MP3's for the masses.

We did support hi-rez formats, there is just not enought of us fish in the sea to make a difference. The world is much more visual than moved by great audio.

$5-$10K plasma wins and, oh grab that HTB will ya!

jschweid
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Thanks for all of your input. I guess what bothers me the most is I can get better sound (for music) out of a moderately priced analog setup than I can with my extremely high priced digital setup. I wouldn't have believed it.

I have a Lexicon RT-20 universal player as well as a Levinson 390s. Going between SACD/DVD-audio formats and CD I've come to the conclusion--only a minor notable difference. Going between these digital sources and analog I've come to another conclusion-- MAJOR difference.

I have a home theater set-up as well, so I can appreciate multichannel audio (albeit, it kills me for having to buy so many interconnects and wires). It's good--I'll give you that.

But what I find so amazing about hifi sound is the soundstage that is created when playing through two speakers. With the proper tweaking, you get more depth and three-dimensionaliy as you do with multichannel audio. And I think that's the magic of audiophile sound, and high end stereo equipment. This is what, I feel separates consumer stereos from high end audiophile audio equipment. I mean, a cheap "theater in a box" when playing multichannel audio can create a rather good soundstage. But what truly excites me is that I can create a better soundstage, presence, and detail with only two speakers (and a bunch of high end components of course). Anyhow, that is what's cool to me.

I don't know, I just wish some of the high end companies--like Levinson--would get on the ball and make a digital player that takes advantage of the higher sample rates and improved formats that are now available, instead of still charging 6 grand for a CD player. Or better yet--how about an audiophile quality iPOD.
Jonathan Schweid, M.D.

Monty
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Solid state and digital really struggle to achieve the liquidity and depth that analog can provide.

ohfourohnine
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"I guess what bothers me the most is I can get better sound (for music) out of a moderately priced analog setup than I can with my extremely high priced digital setup. I wouldn't have believed it."

Believe it, Johnathon, and simply enjoy it as so many of the rest of us do. Yes, vinyl is short in the convenience area, but the rituals surrounding playing vinyl recordings are pleasant in and of themselves - adding a bit of frosting, if you will, to the listening experience. Happily, one of the most successful segments of the recording industry today is the little niche of vinyl reissues and vinyl pressings in general. Get out there and support that segment. Buy some great new vinyl, and when you get the itch to buy an expensive new toy, Mike Fremer will give you some help finding analog goodies.

Welcome to the grand old world of vinyl.

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