FWIW, Some useful reference info may be found here:
'The Cartridge Database' http://www.cartridgedb.com/

Also, possible info on your arms at the same site:
http://www.cartridgedb.com/default_arms.asp

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FWIW, Some useful reference info may be found here:
'The Cartridge Database' http://www.cartridgedb.com/

Also, possible info on your arms at the same site:
http://www.cartridgedb.com/default_arms.asp

When I use these databases Do I want to be in the middle of the range for my tonearm or anywhere in the matching range?

The Denon cartridges don't even come close so I guess we can drop them, the Blue Point No. 2 falls pretty much in the middle of the range as does the Blue Pint Special.

The Grado Prestige Series all come up as a match too.

I guess I should also look at some of the Ortofon too.

Don

Consider the higher the output voltage of the cartidge, the less gain you'll need to use in the pre amp. The lower the gain vs. the signal, the quieter the playback. On the other hand, you don't want a cartridge that is so obviously louder than your CD player that the levels must constantly be adjusted as you switch between sources. This shouldn't be much of a consideration with most CD players and most cartridges but just keep the idea in your mind.

If you like what you're hearing from the Grado you now own, an upgraded Grado will be very similar in tonal balance only adding improvements in subtle but important ways. The Ortofons tend to sound more like the Grados than they do the Sumiko. I have always found either line (Grado or Ortofon) to have excellent midrange balance. If you like vocals, these are top choices for that prioritiy. If you are after something very unlike what you now have, then the Sumiko would be a good all-round choice.

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Consider the higher the output voltage of the cartridge, the less gain you'll need to use in the pre amp. The lower the gain vs. the signal, the quieter the playback. On the other hand, you don't want a cartridge that is so obviously louder than your CD player that the levels must constantly be adjusted as you switch between sources. This shouldn't be much of a consideration with most CD players and most cartridges but just keep the idea in your mind.

If you like what you're hearing from the Grado you now own, an upgraded Grado will be very similar in tonal balance only adding improvements in subtle but important ways. The Ortofons tend to sound more like the Grados than they do the Sumiko. I have always found either line (Grado or Ortofon) to have excellent midrange balance. If you like vocals, these are top choices for that priority. If you are after something very unlike what you now have, then the Sumiko would be a good all-round choice.

Thank you for the great explanation. I may just have to try the Sumiko then. I love the Grado but sometimes want some more punch and less warmth which what I have with the Grado.

I have an old Ortofon M20FL Super that maybe I can replace the stylus and listen to. I also have one of the Sumiko Oyster cartridges that I thought was ok but nothing exciting.
Any thoughts on the M20FL?
Any thoughts on but the Sumiko Blue Point no. 2 vs the Blue Point Special?

Thank you again,
Don

I had an Ortofon M20-FL years ago (which was later upgraded to a M30)on an Infinity Black Widow arm well suited to its medium-low mass and high compliance. I wouldn't think it would be a good match for most of today's arms. Its sound was what I have come to expect from Orotofon, refined and open with flaws that were mostly of the omission type rather than the commission sort. Neither the Grado's nor the Ortofon's are what I believe most people would consider "rock" cartridges. However, I'm always a bit surprised when someone tells me they aren't looking for a "rock" speaker such as a JBL or Klipsch but they invest in a "rock" cartridge to get that punch you describe.

Whatever!

My understanding of the current incarnations of the Sumiko cartridges are they have become less of a "rock" cartridge than their first generation designs had been. You'll have to decide what suits your priorities as I have no direct personal experience with the later models.

Personally, I have favored the Ortofon and Grado sound for decades and found too many high output moving coils to be just as guilty of sins of commission as their low priced, low output cousins. The one exception I have run across - and this is just having heard two of their cartridges on a friend's system - are the current Benz line up with their newest revisions to the designs. They have a low priced, by most people's thinking of good cartridges, model - the 20 something-something I believe - that would be worth considering as a good all round performer.

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My understanding of the current incarnations of the Sumiko cartridges are they have become less of a "rock" cartridge than their first generation designs had been. You'll have to decide what suits your priorities as I have no direct personal experience with the later models.

Personally, I have favored the Ortofon and Grado sound for decades and found too many high output moving coils to be just as guilty of sins of commission as their low priced, low output cousins. The one exception I have run across - and this is just having heard two of their cartridges on a friend's system - are the current Benz line up with their newest revisions to the designs. They have a low priced, by most people's thinking of good cartridges, model - the 20 something-something I believe - that would be worth considering as a good all round performer.

Thanks Jan,
I checked and the Benz cartridges fall way low when I use the Cartridge database online to match my tonearm. I might try the Blue Point no.2 and see how it is. If its not what I wanted I can always resell it and stick with a better Grado since I do like mine.

Thanks Again.
Don

how to use that database thing?

I mean..how to read that table?

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how to use that database thing?

I mean..how to read that table?

Use the tonearm database and select/find your turntable or tonearm.
when selected, one side of the graph shows compliance which you will need from the cartridge specs, and the other part of the grid shows cartridge weight. Your cartridge should fall into the bold section of the chart from your turntable selection.
At least this is what I figured out so far.

Not every TT or Tonearm is there but it sure has alot. I had to find mine by searching for Pro-ject and scroll down to my TT.

Don

"Personally, I have favored the Ortofon and Grado"

Ok, made a decision, I am going to keep the Grade Blue on my new Expression III TT and I just ordered a stylus for the Ortofon M20FL Super and will install that on my Marantz 6110.

I have the new Sumiko Oyster as a back up for now and will someday maybe change to a more expensive Grado for the Pro-ject.

Thanks for all the help :-)
Don

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how to use that database thing?

I mean..how to read that table?

Use the tonearm database and select/find your turntable or tonearm.
when selected, one side of the graph shows compliance which you will need from the cartridge specs,

still a bit confused. can you walk me through the process with the graphs?

my arm is a rega rb250

Hmmmmm... I'm not gonna try to cover how to use this since I basically selected my tonearm (actually turntable) and then selected the Tone Arm Effective Mass field on the chart, then clicked on the button for finding compatible cartridges.

Maybe someone else here can explain this.

Don

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Hmmmmm... I'm not gonna try to cover how to use this since I basically selected my tonearm (actually turntable) and then selected the Tone Arm Effective Mass field on the chart, then clicked on the button for finding compatible cartridges.

Maybe someone else here can explain this.

Don

yes, I know all the steps up until "finding compatible cartridges" , but I dont know how to read the chart.

jan? anyone?

It's rather simple if you follow the steps laid out in the web page.

Start with the "Tonearm/Turntable Database" (http://www.cartridgedb.com/default_arms.asp) which you'll find on the main page of the link. Put in the information you have for your tonearm; manufacturer and model will be sufficient if your arm is in the database. Keep this information handy as you open another window to reach the "Cartridge Database" (http://www.cartridgedb.com/) which is the main link in the post.

On the Caratridge page find your information for the specific cartridge you are interested in. Do this by inserting your cartridge manufacturer and the model, once again this amount of information should be sufficient if your cartridge is in the database. Keep this page open while you move to one of two places, either "Cartridge Resonance Evaluator" by clicking on the tab or "Cartridge Database Tools" which you can find at the top of the "Cartridge Database" page.

Follow directions after that. On the "Cartridge Database Tools" page you'll find the simplest way to get the results you want with decimal point accuracy. Just insert your arm's effective mass in grams in the "Tonearm Effective Mass" slot and your cartridge's mass in the slot for "Cartridge Mass". This provides a simple read out that is to a decimal point accurate.

To check this and get a better idea of the range your tonearm will accept in cartridge compliance use the "Cartridge Resonance Evaluator". This will provide a graph with horizontal and vertical axis that might be more usueful for oddball arms or cartridges.

Would this be the appropriate point to remind you how many times you've told me to get off the forum?

You are behaving, Jan, so I have no problem with you at present.

no need to drudge up that stuff...

Welllllll, thhhhhhank yooooooooou, ncdrawl! No problem when I'm useful for figuring out something you can't? I was the first person you called on, no?

UhHemmmm ...

For example, my RB300 arm has an effective mass of 11.5 grams while the Grado Sonata has a mass of 6.5 grams with a compliance of 20 X 10-6 cm/Dyne. Together they yeild a resonance of 8.38Hz. Pretty close to peachy keen! My arm has been slightly modified but that should still be a fairly decent figure to begin with and I have no idea how to account for the heavy weight counterweight.

I still have no idea how to read that graph.

My effective mass is 12gm , arm is a rega 250

Are you asking for my assistance again?

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Are you asking for my assistance again?

hell yeah.

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hell yeah.

Edited by ncdrawl (03/31/09 06:02 PM)

You had to edit that?

What's your cartridge and is your arm unmodified?

I dont have a cartridge, arm is stock. Wondering what would be a great fit. , or which carts fall in the "ideal" range.

I like a liquid, smooth sound, but not sluggish...all the details with a bit of glue to make it all sound nice.

i don't know what your table is, but i have that arm and i'm using a clearaudio aurum beta s that i love and it seems to have the traits you mention. it is high (3.6mv) output and works fine with the built-in phono stage in my integrated. i traded from a benz and found more of just about everything with this one. they go for about $750 i think.

ncdrawl, I can't just pick a cartridge out of thin air and say this works and has the sound you'll like. The Grado Sonata that I use would be fine in the RB250 if it is fine in the RB300, which it is. The point of the page is to tell you whether a catridge you are considering or that you now own will be compatible with the arm in question. I certainly can't list all the cartridges that would work well in the RB250.

If I knew how to read the damned chart i wouldnt need anyone to tell me anything.

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ncdrawl, I can't just pick a cartridge out of thin air and say this works and has the sound you'll like. The Grado Sonata that I use would be fine in the RB250 if it is fine in the RB300, which it is. The point of the page is to tell you whether a catridge you are considering or that you now own will be compatible with the arm in question. I certainly can't list all the cartridges that would work well in the RB250.

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If I knew how to read the damned chart i wouldnt need anyone to tell me anything.

That one's too easy, ncdrawl. I'll let it pass this time.

Follow my directions and go slow. It ain't that hard!

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That one's too easy, ncdrawl. I'll let it pass this time.

Follow my directions and go slow. It ain't that hard!

I think the main purpose of the chart is to find out if the cartridge you a thinking on trying is compatible with your TT or Arm. After making a list of the cartridges I was looking at in my price range I compared them to the chart and found which were compatible and which were not.

Now I have to determine by ear which I will finally end up with. I'll eventually end up with the Sumiko Blue Point Special Since I can't afford to buy try re-sell and buy again.

You just never know how a cartridge will sound since everything after the cartridge will effect the end result. Cables, Phono Pre-amp, Amp, I think all this will matter in the end.
The Grado Blue I have now was way too mellow with the stock Pro-ject RCAs and the Audioquest RCAs changed that instantly.

Don