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rvance
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The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

...according to William Saletan's unique perspective in Slate.
http://www.slate.com/id/2273708/

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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
...according to William Saletan's unique perspective in Slate.
http://www.slate.com/id/2273708/

Money quote: "Politicians have tried and failed for decades to enact universal health care. This time, they succeeded. In 2008, Democrats won the presidency and both houses of Congress, and by the thinnest of margins, they rammed a bill through. They weren't going to get another opportunity for a very long time. It cost them their majority, and it was worth it. And that's not counting financial regulation, economic stimulus, college lending reform, and all the other bills that became law under Pelosi."

Interesting viewpoint. Thanks for the link.

John Atkinson
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mark evans
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:

Quote:
...according to William Saletan's unique perspective in Slate.
http://www.slate.com/id/2273708/

Money quote: "Politicians have tried and failed for decades to enact universal health care. This time, they succeeded. In 2008, Democrats won the presidency and both houses of Congress, and by the thinnest of margins, they rammed a bill through. They weren't going to get another opportunity for a very long time. It cost them their majority, and it was worth it. And that's not counting financial regulation, economic stimulus, college lending reform, and all the other bills that became law under Pelosi."

Interesting viewpoint. Thanks for the link.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Yes thats right. This Pelosi congress did ram healthcare down the throats of Americans that did not want it. Even to the point of inplementing the Louise Slaughter rule of 'deem and pass' if they could not get 60 votes on it. Which would have had constitutional challenges unto itself.

The Obama administration has spent almost 3 Trillion dollars of deficit spending in less than two years. That has put a debt on America's children in the future and that was the main driving force behind America's rejection of the democrats leading to the newly elected republican congress.

China has even warned the U.S. to stop printing money that is decreasing in value worldwide, or they can no longer buy any more debt created by the U.S.

This congress was totally out of control as far as spending even to the point that congressional incumbant democrats were telling their constituents that they voted against the healthcare bill to get re-elected in this election cycle.

Mark Evans

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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

That piece is very funny as it is clear that even liberal "thinkers" don't mind the "acceptable losses" of their congressmen when they get their liberal adgenda pushed through as law. As long as the adgenda is won who cares who dies?

I sound like our stupid idea of the Viet Nam war when "acceptable losses" was a dispicable military term to talk about individual lives over their percieved military objective only to discover the objective was a stupid one to begin with. Any commander who find his troops losses as acceptable needs to be removed from command and some deep thought about a new war plan developed. You should be working from a "no acceptable losses" perspective and work backwards. But, that is not how we do things because as long as someone is not "one of the losses" it doeen't really matter...to them. For some reason we don't mind sending off high school graduates off to war through the draft while college kids gain their entitled deferrment.

And now that the tide as turned the writer state that now the health care bill can be "fixed with ammendments. Do you really want your adgenda push through even if it is wrong so you can say that you accomplished something? That will be the legacy of Obama/Pelosi...we did something even if it was wrong and the voters didn't want it.

I can't wait for the fallout in 2012 when well over 10 million young people who refused their company's heath plan becuase they wanted more green in their paychecks will now be forced to buy healthcare. Did more than 50% of them vote? Probably not. The fallout from this mistake will go on for decades.

The liberalness of this forum is gotten so bad and so far away from info that Stereophiles enjoyed it is fruitless and a waste of time to come here and wade through the leftist shit dropped off as intellect. If you think the leftist crap that has pushed this country over the last 40 years to the brink of bankrupty by more and more governement intervention is a good thing...Illinois used to be a red state, now blue and bankrupt and can't even provide the University of Illinois money it is due. A republican won his seat when the former gov couldn't sell it.

But don't worry, you can fly all over the internet and find some stupid commentator who will support YOUR postion for you. Why, because no one, including the President or the Congress has a clue how to repair all the damage done. Greedy, crooked financiers filled their pockets full of other peoples money and Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, both heads of the Senate Banking committee did nothing, but it is "W" who takes the hit. I guess all the rich crooks were republicans. Amazing how liberals forget who headed the Senate Banking Committee. I am more upset about all the people who thought they "deserved" more house than they could really afford just because someone was dumb enough to loan them the money. They should have bought the house they neeed, not the one they wanted. Then add 2 big SUVs in the drive way with gas at nearly $3 a gallon. You are ripe to take a fall.

Yes, Bush made a mistake with Cheney as his VP, but nothing as bad as his father for leaving Bagdad when he could have finsihed the job the first time in Desert Storm. 911 would have never happened if he had the cajones to man up. Often the mistakes made are in what you DIDN"T DO! With this congress and this president it will be both because they have ignored the economy, and it WAS the economy, stupid!

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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

It's going to take years for the democrats to realize just how bad they lost in the 2010 mid-terms. One of the stages of handling loss is denial and then it's downhill from there.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


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To the tune of almost 3 Trillion dollars of deficit spending in less than two years that has put a debt on America's children in the future.

This too is one of your factless bits of misinformation, Mark. It's simply not true, yet it gets repeated often enough to make the hate sucking proletariats on the right - with a memory span shorter than that of a newly hatched gnat who sees no mother or father they call their own - buy into the "Big Lie". You choose to believe it is true since to believe otherwise would necessiate a look at what you stand for as a person. We've seen that is not the most elemental of qualities bestowed upon the R's or those in the gang of I-used-to-be-a-R-but-I-find-claiming-I-am-a-L-or-an-I-makes-me-feel-better-about-myself. As you and Jim dislayed in the "effect of tea" thread, looking the other way is much easier on your soul and buying into factless hatred is much simpler to accomplish and sooooo self-gratifying.

Your "fact" is not one.

Lots of Nations have told the US to cease printing money since, as the currency of the World, it only weakens the entire global economy by making their own currency less valuable. They are looking out for themself, as they should. And the US needs to look out for itself. As the World's largest still remaining single consumer group for other Nations' poorly made junk, until the US economy begins to float, nothing much will change in the world and a few idiots might just take David Broders' economic advice as good thinking;

Quote:
With strong Republican support in Congress for challenging Iran's ambition to become a nuclear power, he can spend much of 2011 and 2012 orchestrating a showdown with the mullahs. This will help him politically because the opposition party will be urging him on. And as tensions rise and we accelerate preparations for war, the economy will improve.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/29/AR2010102907404.html?nav=emailpage

There you have the plan from the R's for economic recovery; with two endless and long mismanaged wars to borrow for well into the 2050's and beyond, we should stir up yet another hornet's nest waiting to burst open. We should, as W did, ignore the advice regarding the Midle East rupturing should the US invade any nation without clear provocation and justification. The D's won on Tuesday in that they remain the stopgap for such lunacy. Taking Broder's advice would be quite good for the oil companies, indeed, even better than Smoking Joe Barton now landing in the Chairmanship seat for US Energy Policy. We should continue to pick a fight with the one Nation who actually could put warplanes in the air when we begin the next wave of "Shock and Awe" bombing of civilians who have yet to do us harm. But the building and, of course, the use of those bombs along with the mostly lower class human canon fodder mindlessly wasted would be good for the US economy.

The US has become an import-cheap-crap-to-us Nation vs the once most-vital-export-driven-economy status we had enjoyed at one time under Dem Presidents and Congress. Any Nation exporting to the US would prefer each $ they acquire to be worth more. There's no mystery beyond that when you look at it fairly, intelligently and without the biased ear and eye of a listener to right wingnut talk radio and blogs. They are the ones who do not wish the US to succeed under Obama and they are willing to allow the US economy to stagnate for yet another two years of doing nothing. They are the corporatist backed mouthpieces who prefer you should look beneath you to "those who bought houses they couldn't afford" rather than to the top and to those rigged the game against the US and World economies. Anything China says about the USD after three decades of manipulating their currency based upon the value of the USD is hardly to be taken without yet another grain of where-the-hell-did-you-get-that-"fact" salt. You're not seeing countries such as Venezuela complaining about the value of the USD as they would love to see it taken down as the World's trading currency. I assume Boortz didn't mention that "fact", or, if he did, he left out a few "actual, real world facts" which would have cleared the matter up a bit.

LBJ knew when he signed The Civil Rights Act of 1964 into law he was giving the South and most of Middle America to the R's "Southern Strategy" for generations. He did it because it was right, not because it was politically expedient. The R's also cried loudly and with wild eyed abandon about Socialism taking over the United States of America when basic human rights were extended to yet another long oppressed minority group. And yet it took a Republican President and R-controlled Legislative and Judicial Branch to finally come close to finishing the deal and devaluing the USD to historically low trading power;

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EUR/USD Euro
Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


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It's going to take years for the democrats to realize just how bad they lost in the 2010 mid-terms. One of the stages of handling loss is denial and then it's downhill from there.

http://changingminds.org/explanations/values/deadly_sins.htm

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


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For some reason we don't mind sending off high school graduates off to war through the draft while college kids gain their entitled deferrment.

uhhh, Jim, there is no draft today. There hasn't been one for decades. Even despite that fact, I assume you believe GW Bush served his Country honorably by having his uppity Government type Daddy get him into the National Guard and then not show up?


Quote:
And now that the tide as turned the writer state that now the health care bill can be "fixed with ammendments. Do you really want your adgenda push through even if it is wrong so you can say that you accomplished something? That will be the legacy of Obama/Pelosi...we did something even if it was wrong and the voters didn't want it.

Another "factless" claim. R's want the bill repealled, no one else does. Exit polls indicated a clear split (47/48) on the issue with "repeal" going to those registered as R's or to those who had once claimed R allegiance yet switched to become shamed Independents in 2006. When polled at large on the individual aspects of Health Reform, the constituent parts of the bill are largely desirable and favored by the majority of the public. The R's are frantic to harm this bill before it becomes the recognized way of doing business. As that slowly occurs over the next few years and as those reforms which are already in place benefit the individual citizen, the R's will have nothing to do but make further promises to attack reform just as they have Social Security and Medicare. Of course, both of those programs are wildly successful in the individual eye of the recipient and the public at large. Even the TP's who screamed about spending want their checks and check ups. The corporate printed signs urging "Keep your Government hands off my Medicare" indicate just how deluded most R's remain about the programs which have been overwhelming successes with the public. Try as you might to close your eyes and ears to the facts, Dem programs for social fairness and a safety net security have long been favored by the public at large as they have settled into the way the US does its business.


Quote:
I can't wait for the fallout in 2012 when well over 10 million young people who refused their company's heath plan becuase they wanted more green in their paychecks will now be forced to buy healthcare. Did more than 50% of them vote? Probably not. The fallout from this mistake will go on for decades.

Yep, just as it has over SS and Medicare. It will become just another R talking point to rally the base as they realize they are powerless to stop the most popular programs instituted by the US Government under Dem Presidents. Which do you think will draw more mindless R voters to the polls, Health Care repeal or abolishing the settled law of Roe V Wade? I'm betting the R's will continue to hammer away at women (further alienating the young female voter) while only paying lip service to Health Care (the repeal of which appeals to the elderly, white majority voter [who actually favor only chipping away at the bill while keeping those policies which benefit their own personal pocketbook - things such as no cost check ups] who will not be able to pull the "R" ticket out of the doldrums of irrelevance in another decade).


Quote:
The liberalness of this forum is gotten so bad and so far away from info that Stereophiles enjoyed it is fruitless and a waste of time to come here and wade through the leftist shit dropped off as intellect.

Jim, you get to choose who you associate with and there is a simple solution to your complaint. And, remember, it was the right who screamed so loudly for this Open Bar forum in the first place. As always, be careful what you wish for. Even when you get it, your Repub DNA says you are to complain it's not really what you were expecting. What were you expecting? That the liberals would just lay down and let you publish your idiotic BS without comment? Well, now you've been disavowed of that notion too.


Quote:
But don't worry, you can fly all over the internet and find some stupid commentator who will support YOUR postion for you.

Which is what you would have to do to find a liberal voice. Unfortunately, I only have to turn on the radio to hear the rightwing BS 24/7 on a dozen stations here in Dallas. And, Jim, you have not proven yourself to be the most discriminating - well, actually I take that word back - the most intelligent of listeners when it comes to mindless BS which panders to your hatred of your fellow man and disrespect for the Office they hold. Bad on you, Jim.


Quote:
Greedy, crooked financiers filled their pockets full of other peoples money and Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, both heads of the Senate Banking committee did nothing, but it is "W" who takes the hit.

Awwwwww, poor baby! Possibly, his white washing new book will further convince you he is blameless for the last decade. Why not? you seem to buy into antyhing that you can find as a reason to hate Dems without having actual facts on your side.


Quote:
I am more upset about all the people who thought they "deserved" more house than they could really afford just because someone was dumb enough to loan them the money. They should have bought the house they neeed, not the one they wanted. Then add 2 big SUVs in the drive way with gas at nearly $3 a gallon. You are ripe to take a fall.

Exactly! See how you have your facts completely wrong and yet you look down your nose at those with whom you disagree as you've been told to do by the Lord High Rushbo? Good job, now it's off to get some religion and the Word of Jesus on a Sunday AM. You are a hypocrite, Jim.


Quote:
Yes, Bush made a mistake with Cheney as his VP, but nothing as bad as his father for leaving Bagdad when he could have finsihed the job the first time in Desert Storm. 911 would have never happened if he had the cajones to man up.

You continue to print this as if it were what you believe. After nearly a decade of Iran getting stronger without the stop plug of Saddam and Shitte ruled Afghanistan in place, and an endless war which is stripping us of our wealth and human resources, you are still an idiot for not seeing what is clearly in front of you.

How the hell did all this wriggle into a thread about the last election? Do you have so little to say that you must repeat everything you think in each thread you enter?

mark evans
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:

Quote:
To the tune of almost 3 Trillion dollars of deficit spending in less than two years that has put a debt on America's children in the future.

This too is one of your factless bits of misinformation, Mark. It's simply not true, yet it gets repeated often enough to make the hate sucking proletariats on the right - with a memory span shorter than that of a newly hatched gnat who sees no mother or father they call their own - buy into the "Big Lie".

I would define mis-information as leftist op-ed pieces written by the progressive David Brock created, owned, and funded Media Matters group.

Jan,
I noticed that you post Media Matters links quite often to back up your claims?

I guess the Media Matters "journalists" have to be nothing but purely objective "journalists" with only the pure unadulterated truth at thier side and there can be absolutely no left-wing bias on thier part.

Also I find it very interesting that you use the term Proletariat. Very interesting.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

That's it, Mark! Don't refute the message, attack the messenger! Good boy, you get a bone from some R talking head today. There was nothing in my post which came from Media Matters. So, tell us, why did you choose to bring up more factless crap? Why not discuss actual facts rather than more made up BS?

Despite your foolish and notwithstanding contrary game, you prefer once again to forget that I do post facts while you post none. Do this, Mark, make two lists for me. In one list all the facts I have posted which came from Media Matters and all the facts I have posted from other news sources. We'll see how I post from MM "quite often", eh? That should finish off your ludicrous claim. Then we can concentrate on how many of those facts which I pull from MM are actual facts which can be checked by anyone wishing to do some research and only attacked by those who prefer not to deal with any factual evidence whatsoever. No, Mark, attacking a source with which you disagree as anything other than a reliable source is just more right wingnut hypocrisy brought on by your blinded desire not to face actual facts. We've been through this how many times now?

Next, make a list of all the facts I've linked to and all the "facts" you've actually linked to. Just spouting jibberish which makes you feel better about being a person who understands and accepts the code words of "personal responsibility" not to imply "personal sense of justice" doesn't get you the brass ring in this case. Which religion or major philosophy did you say you follow which allows you to turn a blind-eye to the travials of others while in the personal pursuit of more $$$'s?

Media Matters was, by its own admission created to track the righ wing BS - such as the claims made by the factless Beck, Rushbo, etc, regarding Obama's trip to India. Hardly similar to the right wing screamers and the now famously hypocritical Fox News claims of "fair and balanced" while operating as a clear fund raising point for present and future R candidates in their employment and without. The door is slowly closing on the idea the right can actually just make up BS and then spread it around the internet to make the factless into an acceptable story to those who hate Obama and most others. Those are the sources for my facts and since they can be fact checked by anyone willing to hear the truth they are not to be discounted simply because they expose the right wing Bullshit factory.

"Proletariat" is convenient and quite polite compared to what I had considered posting. Don't tell me you have a problem with someone who understands another language or the essence of political history! Oh! my mistake, of course you do - that would constitute yet another fact you would have to deal with. But look! you understand the secret language of the right wingnuts who use code words for things like "black and brown people" or "Muslims". You know what I'm talking about, the crap that always starts with, "Those people ... " What'ja bitchin' about?

Mark, why don't you try this "denunciation" crap with someone else. It isn't going to fly with me.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
Next, make a list of all the facts I've linked to and all the "facts" you've actually linked to. Just spouting jibberish which makes you feel better about being a person who understands and accepts the code words of "personal responsibility" not to imply "personal sense of justice" doesn't get you the brass ring in this case. Which religion or major philosophy did you say you follow which allows you to turn a blind-eye to the travials of others in the pursuit of more $$$'s?

Uh, I thought the Democrats got beat this go around? I think that is a fact. I really don't need any sources to prove that as well. What's your point, loser?

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

That fuckheads like you have no facts and love to eat bullshit.

mark evans
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


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That's it, Mark! Don't refute the message, attack the messenger!

Jan,
You can't be serious..

"attacking the messenger"....... would that be like you calling me and others..."liars" that disgree with you?

So, you never have done that on this forum when discussing politics. C'mon Man, quit wagging the dog over here. SHEESH!

mark evans
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


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Media Matters was, by its own admission created to track the righ wing BS

You proved my point. And thats why YOU use Media Matters as a non-objective outlet to prove what YOU want to be "the facts".

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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


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Uh, I thought the Democrats got beat this go around? I think that is a fact. I really don't need any sources to prove that as well. What's your point, loser?

I am hoping Obama "won" this election like Clinton "won" in 1994.

Neither party seems capable of leading from the majority position.

If someone at either end of the spectrum thinks one party has a monopoly on righteousness or folly, then you have just met a stone cold certified idiot.

This is no more Obama's doing than it was Bush II's.

Both had majorities of their own party to work with and all we've seen from either party is spend spend spend, with accompanying significant Constitutional vandalism.

The only person who's acted with any class this election cycle is Bush II - and I'm a liberal saying that.

mark evans
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


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Quote:

I am hoping Obama "won" this election like Clinton "won" in 1994.

That may prove to be exactly the same scenario this time. Good point.

Neither party seems capable of leading from the majority position.

So far, you are exactly right. I hope THIS time the Republicans do not go the establishment route.

Mark

rvance
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


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China has even warned the U.S. to stop printing money that is decreasing in value worldwide, or they can no longer buy any more debt created by the U.S.


Which is why they are doing their currency trading with other countries.

http://www.forexblog.org/

And what do our "patriotic" leaders in the banking industry do with all the taxpayer bailout money intended to be loaned back to the American citizens for business and home financing? They play the currency differential market to make themselves and their friends wealthy beyond belief.

There's plenty of blame for this in both parties.

It's a shame we can't discuss these issues without beating each other up or getting offended. I may differ in ideology on some issues, but I respect and admire most of you and consider you friends. You are smart people, you love music, and your opinion matters to me.

mark evans
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


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China has even warned the U.S. to stop printing money that is decreasing in value worldwide, or they can no longer buy any more debt created by the U.S.


Which is why they are doing their currency trading with other countries.

http://www.forexblog.org/

And what do our "patriotic" leaders in the banking industry do with all the taxpayer bailout money intended to be loaned back to the American citizens for business and home financing? They play the currency differential market to make themselves and their friends wealthy beyond belief.

I agree to a certain extent. The Senate Banking committee AND their fat cat buddies in the banking world have become so corrupt. Look at Chris Dodd and the sweetheart Countrywide deal.

I'm of the opinion that it has become nothing more than crony capitalism and I agree, Both parties are culpable.

There's plenty of blame for this in both parties.

Exactly!

It's a shame we can't discuss these issues without beating each other up or getting offended. I may differ in ideology on some issues, but I respect and admire most of you and consider you friends. You are smart people, you love music, and your opinion matters to me.

Thanks for that! Very well said Bro. I personally can do without all the name calling and profanity thrown at each other. Hell, the reality is...and I may be going out on a limb, but I am of the opinion that most of these politicians certain people feel the need to defend, don't really give a crap about the ones defending them. How's that for irony

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


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Jan,
You can't be serious..

"attacking the messenger"....... would that be like you calling me and others..."liars" that disgree with you?

Well, of course I'm serious. I laid out several facts which refute any claims the R's actually "won" anything. Their approval ratings are abysmal even beyond the scope of the Dem's and well beyond that of Obama. You call that winning? "The effect of tea" shows not one of you on the R side of the aisle has even the slightest concept of how the R's are going to actually govern these next two years other than to produce gridlock - which is certain to win the R's even more converts come 2012.

My post contained the following facts.

You, Mark, are simply repeating factless BS without any truth to stand on, behind or with.

David Broder's war mongering advice to O is sheer lunacy yet stands as the only hope for the R's to actually work with Obama. Yet, while we skirmish between ourselves over who "won" a few seats for the next two years, the real enemies of the US people are still plotting to destroy us. As they plot, our constant attention to non-facts makes us an easier target with each passing election.

The oil companies would enrich themself beyond even the record breaking quarterly profits they have been reporting since the halicon days of Cheney as energy czar not disclosing with whom he met on policy.

That we once again returned to the claims of "those (people) who couldn't afford homes" despite this having been shown to be right wing claptrap code for hatred and that it is factless in its claims.

LBJ did the right thing to extend some human dignity to a group of people who had been long oppressed by the parents of those now wishing to "Take Our Country Back" to those days before dignity was even possible. He did this despite the cries of "Socialism" from the whackjob R's of his day.

The Party that won has been allowed to suck at the teat of the rich and powerful unelected ruling class for at least the next election cycle. After that they will become highly paid lobbyists and consultants to the industries they were once supposed to police.

Go back and check, Mark, that's what's in my post. Then tell me, which of those facts did you knock down by bringing MM into the discussion when MM wasn't in my post? That is how you attacked the messenger in case you really don't understand the term.

Have I called you "liars"? I think I have when you blindly repeat the lies of others with no conscience towards fact checking what you are saying. Here's another one of those "what do you stand for" questions. If someone willingly repeats a lie about another person or a group of people without first determining whether the claim is true or false, what would you call that person who repeats the lie? I call it being just as much a liar as the original teller. Am I to suppose you have a different view?

Sheeesh! yourself, Mark!!! You are incapable of posting facts. When you post lies, I will call you on them and you will be presented with the facts. The way to refute what I post is to post actual facts - not just repeat the same lie - and not to attack me because my facts are real and correct. I'm still waiting for you to post your first fact and back it up with non-partisan proof.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:

Quote:
Media Matters was, by its own admission created to track the right wing BS

You proved my point. And thats why YOU use Media Matters as a non-objective outlet to prove what YOU want to be "the facts".

Oh, Mark, I feel so sorry for your wife. I feel sorry for her if she buys into your accusations she is the one to blame for not trusting you were out with the boys when she found the purple panties in your pocket even when she doesn't wear purple panties.

Since I know you won't make either of the lists I requested of you, here's why I use Media Matters (and since I have not used MM in this thread, I'll have to go back to "Hard as possible facts ..." ...

Working in reverse order of their posting date; 1) Beck calls for "dig[ging] Nevada out" of the country and "cut[ting] the California star off the flag" complete with audio from his program, 2) "Palin, Rove have recently sparred over Palin's qualifications to be president" with references to their comments and these from another prominent R, "There is a determined, focused establishment effort ... to find a candidate we can coalesce around who can beat Sarah Palin," said one prominent and longtime Washington Republican. "We believe she could get the nomination, but Barack Obama would crush her", 3) "Fox News: Where you can bash Islam with impunity" with direct quotes from the Fox News broadcasts on which the comments were made and dates upon which they ocurred, 4) "Kilmeade says Hawaiian birds will 'redo their chromosomes' to 'adjust' to football stadium lights" complete with video, and 5) Share Print Email
Donohue: "If everybody practiced what the Catholic church teaches in terms of sexuality, you wouldn't even have people dying of AIDS"
Complains that the church spends money "servicing people dying of AIDS" "and yet we continue to get it by these gay bigots" complete with video.

I could go on but I'm sure anyone with a lick of common sense sees what I am posting here. Why should I bother to present the right wing as hate filled, lie telling nutjobs when they do such a terrific job of doing it themself and MM provides the times, dates, show names, identities of the culprits and the video of their actual words? MM is not the "non-objective outlet" you claim but the fact based source it is. Go find a factless post I pulled from MM. You can't do it because their articles, like my own posts, are factual and their articles include the very evidence of the duplicity and hatred of the far right wing lies and those who spread the lies. So, yes, Mark, you are not only a fool for trying this BS again but you are a liar for making the claims you do.

Tell your wife I feel sorry for her for so many reasons.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
Look at Chris Dodd and the sweetheart Countrywide deal.

You have the balls to say this after you chose to look away from Tom DeLay's petri dish of Republicanism?!!!

Hypocrite!!!

Monty
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Screw politics, I want to hear more about the purple panties.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

You should ask ME, he probably has his story already worked out.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Here's another MM article complete with video of the actual comments; http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201011050011

Enjoy!

mark evans
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Media Matters was, by its own admission created to track the right wing BS

You proved my point. And thats why YOU use Media Matters as a non-objective outlet to prove what YOU want to be "the facts".

Oh, Mark, I feel so sorry for your wife. I feel sorry for her if she buys into your accusations she is the one to blame for not trusting you were out with the boys when she found the purple panties in your pocket even when she doesn't wear purple panties.

Tell your wife I feel sorry for her for so many reasons.

So, thats your concession statement. You attack my marriage? THIS is exactly the type of stuff that destroys forum decorum and decent conversation between adults.

Something that has absolutely nothing to do with the topics at hand?

You don't know me or my wife.

That is a disgusting thing to say just because we have different political beliefs

Your comment defines you.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Jan it is clear that in your mind you are one smart individual and you need to run for office and set this country straight!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are wasting your time here. Get on the stump, man, and save us. Only you can do it.

Your arguments are so full of shit it is beyond belief. Did Mr. Clinton serve, or yes, Monica served him. I get it!

I know when the damn draft was as I was a part of it and went to OCS when my draft dogging class mates got married or went to grad school you ass. When ever I see them I call them draft dodgers to their face because that is what they are. They were not going to follow some of our high school classmates who didn't make it out of Viet Nam. No matter what they had to do. Children of privilage and every one of them is a D today. Go figure.

Jan, guys like you bring out the worst in me. God help me to never come back to this forum again.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Oh, Lord! Get a sense of humor and stop being a baby. No one attacked your marriage. You're the one who brought up Media Matters when I hadn't used or mentioned MM. You're the one who claimed I was using a biased website when it didn't post the sort of information you wanted to see, that is nonfactual BS. You're the one who thought it smart to distort logic to suit your own ends. So just get over it. A "concession"? Either you are being funny or you are being a complete loon. Which is it?

This is not the first time you've tried to discredit a source who presents factual articles which place R's in the loony light of their own words. So don't get your panties in a wad here since none of this would have occuurred had you been sensible about all of this.

This faux outrage defines you, Mark.

As I said, you cannot defend the indefensible and therefore you prefer to attack the messenger. Post facts supported by something other than the loony right wingnut talking heads and bloggers and there won't be a problem. We can actually discuss things as adults without all of your ballyhooing about this and that. However, if you just continue to post right wing lies and hypocrisies and you continue to ignore facts because they are inconvenient for you - if that is the religion and philosophy you wish to accept - then we will continue to have the same problems in each and every thread. Either you act as an adult and realize when you are being fed lies so you do not repeat those same lies or we keep doing this. Choosing to ignore Delay's petri dish was easy for you. Do you intend to just deny everything that is inconvenient for you as I continue to post the facts about the distortions and the crazy BS coming from the right? If so, that too is your decision. I have no problem finding proof of just how dishonest the right has become as they are convinced they can say anything and no one will fact check them and those who do will be discounted by their true believers. Thus we get Obama is not a citizen and has not shown his birth certificate, "Ed Perlmutter voted for "Viagra for rapists" paid for with tax dollars", "The new health care law will 'force seniors into Barack Obama's government-run health care program'", Chris Coons has Marxist beliefs", "The government is trying to now close the Lincoln Memorial for any kind of large gatherings", "President Obama is a Muslim", ""Democrats are poised now to cause this largest tax increase in U.S. history" and on and on and on; http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/

I can find proof of a dozen lies and attacks on Dems each and every day made by the right wing loonies so, if you prefer to see nothing but that on this forum, just keep doing what you've been doing. I can find the facts faster than you can ignore them. Actualy, I find it rather amusing that facts bother you so much when you have no real use for them.

So until you either stop glibly posting lies and you fact check the half truths before you post them and realize they are factually lies and at times quite crazy lies, this will go on with or without your false indignation. OK?

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

That's what? the fifth or sixth time Jim has stomped off this forum in a huff after having his religious hypocrisy pointed out? Let me tell you what is clear, Jim. I post facts and proofs while you and the other R's on this forum post lies and hypocrisies and none of those lies and hypocrisies bother you. What bothers you is the fact they can be proven to be lies and hypocrisies. BooHoo!

Jim, Clinton has nothing to do with anything in this thread, but the fact you care to go back to that issue shows who you really are and what you really think along with what you cannot comprehend. You post lies and then you try to cover them up by complaining about the left. You stop just short of saying we should have nuked the entire Middle East into a parking lot for US fighter jets and then you complain when someone points out how ridiculously ignorant you are of real world facts. What were you expecting to have happen here when you demanded this forum be turned over to the right wing for their political BS? As the right wing candidates so often said during this election cycle, "Man up, fella." I don't bring anything "out" in you, you do it to yourself. Face it, you're a crybaby right wingnut who just can't stand to have it pointed out to you that you are repeating lies and you are being a religious hypocrite. None of that is my problem.

Yeah, maybe this Open Bar thing wasn't such a good idea for an audio forum. But you guys demanded it and now you cry about it. Pray God helps you to realize that fact.

Jan Vigne
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To Mark, Jim and all who find me "unpleasant" due to our political differences,

We do not have "political differences". We have factual differences. I can post facts which disprove what you have in your head as information. Information taken from a talking head or a blogger on the right. You cannot do likewise to anything I post. You have no facts, only what you've been told to believe. It's obvious you do not seek out any facts nor any opinion which differs from your own. You live in an echo chamber of hatred and lies. And, in that world, you are content.

Stop listening to those who are paid to promote hatred of your fellow American. Stop listening to anyone who begins a sentence with, "Those people ... ". They are attempting to paint with a broad brush using lies and hypocrisy to sway your opinions without resorting to facts. Stop listening to anyone who promotes hatred - period! I wake up to an AM conservative jockey who begins at 5AM and the lies do not cease until 12AM. There are about 12 stations running this crap virtually 24/7 here in Dallas. I am convinced you could spend all day listening to the BS and not find one actual fact. It's not what they are being paid to peddle.

Stop listening to it. Open your mind to other possibilities, accept that others can have a different opinion but we all must deal with the same facts. Find facts and learn how to use them for the betterment of a discussion. Do not just buy into what you are being told by anyone. If a talking head spends three, four hours a day five days a week telling you the Dems are simply wrong about everything and promoting hatred of anyone who disagrees with you, doesn't look or speak like you or has a different religion than you, why listen to that person? "Personal responsibility" and "personal freedom" do not mean ignore your neighbor and they ceratinly do not mean look down your nose at your fellow American. Common sense tells you that cannot be true. Common decency says you should not listen to the hatred day in and day out.

Stop listening to the liars. There are respectable conservative talkers if you need a fix. If you can't listen without the hate infused lies, then you need to just stop listening. Facts exist for one reason, to be the enemy of lies. Learn to find facts.

Don't respond to this, Lamont. Just leave it alone.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
That fuckheads like you have no facts and love to eat bullshit.

Nah nah nah-nah-nah nah! You lost. Fucking cry baby. You need a sugar titty, cry baby?

Lamont Sanford
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
We do not have "political differences". We have factual differences.

Jan's facts are different than your facts.

I can post facts which disprove what you have in your head as information.

Jan can post opinions and editorials to disprove your facts.

Information taken from a talking head or a blogger on the right.

Jan prefers talking heads and bloggers on the left.

You cannot do likewise to anything I post.

Jan can do likewise? So, watch it buddy!

You have no facts, only what you've been told to believe.

Jan knows that talking heads and bloggers on the left don't tell people what to believe.

It's obvious you do not seek out any facts nor any opinion which differs from your own.

Jan obviously seeks out facts and especially opinions that differs from his own. Isn't that clear?

You live in an echo chamber of hatred and lies.

Jan lives in a vacuum cleaner.

And, in that world, you are content

This is why Jan hates you and will call you a liar. We should report him to the campus police.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
So, thats your concession statement. You attack my marriage? THIS is exactly the type of stuff that destroys forum decorum and decent conversation between adults.

Something that has absolutely nothing to do with the topics at hand?

You don't know me or my wife.

That is a disgusting thing to say just because we have different political beliefs

Your comment defines you.

Correct. Jan is a forum monger and promotes hate speech without a license to use. We should report him to the campus police. BTW, Jan's wife has a dick. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I've just noticed that people with dicks that contribute nothing to Darwin's Theory tend to be pretty smart some times. What with all the facts on their side.

gkc
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Nobody won in 2010.

JA, the Democrats did NOT "enact" universal health care. Because it hasn't been paid for. Costs have been deferred into the vague future, but nothing gets enacted until it is paid for.

"Financial regulation" is hopelessly vague, at this moment in time. There are no rules that cannot be surmounted, ignored, or sidestepped if you have enough money and effective lobbyists. People who think there has been significant financial regulation change are delusional. The fattest hogs still muscle their way to wherever they want to squat at the public trough. That hasn't changed.

There has been no "economic stimulus." There has been merely a larger noodle fumbled around the cat's ass, off target and wiped across the haunches of an increasingly pissed off cat, and more paper debt booked to pay for said noodle.

College lending reform? I am at a loss for words. College student reform? Now THAT would be progress. Alas, once again, you can't stuff a wet noodle up a cat's ass.

"Bills"? Funny you should use that term. One of the reasons they are called "bills" is that they remain unpaid until they are called due. During the Age of Deferral, the Realm of the Infinite Rollover, nothing EVER gets called due. Don't expect that to happen until the Long Bond once again hits the magic 6% yield. Then expect the shit to hit the fan.

Jan, you live in a fantasy world whose inhabitants think that rhetoric actually matters. Dream on.

I can't think of two better things to spend paper on than gold and good sound. After all, the paper is plentiful enough and cheap to borrow, and the above two prime purchases are thus likewise cheap. I won't quibble about your order of preference -- I'd prefer both.

Happy tunes, all -- but NOBODY won ANYTHING last week.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Clifton, all too typical of you. Money's great, buy gold, make me richer for convincing you to buy gold so my gold goes up in value while I do nothing. Pretty typical of a fat cat's ass.

Since you never thought much of thinking about others I'm sure you don't remember when rhetoric pulled a Nation through the Great Depression or rallied that same Nation in war. Coming from a leftist President I doubt you can scarcely remember when rhetoric sent us to the moon, pushed a President into signing away his party's political future for the sake of doing what was right or when facts and the rhetoric surrounding them forced a crook out of the White House. All of those things are the result of rhetoric and the forward looking people on the left who believe in its persausive powers.

What has the right given us? "I'm not a crook"? "Deficits don't matter"? "Keep your government hands off my Medicare"? Not much to go on there, eh?

Small people think small. They do great damage, but they think small. That rhetoric on the right has shrunk to the level where it is nothing more than a game played to see just how gullible 42% of the populace really is amounts to an indicator of the poor relationship the right has with ideas that move the Nation forward. On the right facts do not matter when a good story that plays on hatred is better. The bigger the lie and the more it is repeated, the better the lie is.

Other than that, I take it as mixed news that you now have a wet noodle you can no longer shove up your own fat cat's ass and go fuck yourself.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/art...ity/#paragraph2

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
BTW, Jan's wife has a dick.

She does, she has your's. We keep it in one of those miniature Altoids boxes with some other things from her days when she knew you as "Charlene, the bearded Chihuahua". She claims you unstrapped it one afternoon and told her you had never had the opportunity to use it since you smelled so bad. She dipped it in alchohol - well, you know why - and it nearly disappeared since there wasn't much there to begin with. We take it out every now and again to scare the dog who thinks it's a funny looking little raisin.

So you got shit for brains and your dick's in a tin box. What more is new? Maybe you and Clifton could get together and work something out between the two of you.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
She does, she has your's

It is, "yours", you dolt. Learn to write English or go back to Mexico.

Ariel Bitran
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

while focusing my efforts on another forum, i come to find...


Quote:
BTW, Jan's wife has a dick.


Quote:
So you got shit for brains and your dick's in a tin box. What more is new?


c'mon guys... I wouldn't be as much of a babysitter if yall were the only members on the forums. Fortunately, there are nearly 12,000 other users who probably have something to say.

this sheriff will not stand for this crap. I want to have more people interested and reading our forums. Posts like these discourage everyone from posting.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Ariel, why don't you do a search on Lamont's posts and see what you come up with? You figure out what he contributes to this forum, I can't.

12,000 "users"? Really?!

Ariel Bitran
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
Ariel, why don't you do a search on Lamont's posts and see what you come up with? You figure out what he contributes to this forum, I can't.

12,000 "users"? Really?!

you're missing the point. Lamont will often post humorous tongue-in-cheek overly sarcastic remarks, that only the most uptight will take personally. He's the forum version of South Park -- taking digs at everyone, including himself. These don't bother me nor do they kill conversation.

I dont like him (or any other member) prodding at individual members for the sake of humiliating the member rather than stimulating the discussion at hand.

Its also upon you to be the bigger man/forum member, that if someone takes a dig at you, let it slide. You only feed the monster...

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
you're missing the point.

I'm missing the point of, "BTW, Jan's wife has a dick"?! You are kidding me! I find it offensive and since it was directed at me, I get to decide whether I am offended or not. You have no say in whether I am offended. Understand?

You think having our own little South Park character is going to make everyone want to read this forum when he constantly post insults to gays, muslims and just about anyone else LS cares to insult? You get to decide what everyone else thinks is funny and what isn't?


Quote:
I dont like him (or any other member) prodding at individual members for the sake of humiliating the member rather than stimulating the discussion at hand.

Yeah, right. Once again, why don't you do a search on how many "audio" threads he contibutes to on this forum. Why are you telling me I shouldn't be offended by Lamont? He is insulting on purpose and just to be insulting. That's not funny on a public forum. I can choose to watch or not watch South Park. I don't have that choice here and I don't prefer to come to this forum to be insulted or to see gays, muslims and others insulted just for Lamont's entertainment.


Quote:

Its also upon you to be the bigger man/forum member, that if someone takes a dig at you, let it slide. You only feed the monster...

Well, how about a "bigger man" just doesn't post the insults in the first place? It is not "upon me" to just ignore the BS Lamont has posted on this forum for the past six years. Why should I? I come here to discuss audio, not to see gays and muslims insulted. Or to be insulted myself. What do you suppose Lamont comes here to do? Play like he's on South Park?

Ariel, you don't have a clue about what has transpired between LS and myself over the last five, six years on this forum starting when he was a dup defender par excellence. You find him funny. I do not. So, you've got my compliant about Lamont's "style". I expect the sheriff to be fair and equitable in this and, if you want peace, you have to get peace from everyone and not expect one of us to just let everything else roll off our back. I've tried ignoring LS. Look at what it gets me.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
I've asked Lamont to stop. I'd also like for you to stop provoking him.

Thanks.
Stephen
11/04/09

You really think this is the first time? There are personalities here who have clashed for years. I'm not the only one who finds Lamont distasteful.

What's your plan? Either we all get along and no one tosses the first brick or we all continue as we have for the last six years and this forum is a free for all. This forum has had a "free speech" attitude that says anything is OK ever since the day it began. Are you intending to change that?

j_j
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Well, now I've seen an intellegent response in this forum again.

rvance
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Many viewpoints here are expressed without escalating into vitriolic attacks. Adults can find a way....I think.

Monty
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Instead of asking yourself if you would say what you post to someone's face, maybe the better question is would you say what you post in front of your children? We clearly have a few people who have crossed the line between passionate debate into vitriolic, unbridled hatred toward actual forum members.

I'll be the first to admit that political topics can inspire unpleasantries and lord knows we see it even between sitting members of Congress from time to time, but I'd like to think that we as a group wouldn't stoop to the level of Congressmen around here!

Use the private message feature if you want to make it personal and keep the boards for attacking and debating ideas.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
I dont like him (or any other member) prodding at individual members for the sake of humiliating the member rather than stimulating the discussion at hand.

Mr. Vigne:

He's correct. The art is in avoiding going after a single member. But you make such an easy target that even I need intervention. BTW, nobody likes a tattle-tale.


Quote:
What's your plan? Either we all get along and no one tosses the first brick or we all continue as we have for the last six years and this forum is a free for all. This forum has had a "free speech" attitude that says anything is OK ever since the day it began. Are you intending to change that?

See how you like to manipulate people? Everything in your quote above is false. There is no free speech on this forum because this forum is a privately owned forum. You get to post your endless bullshit as a result of the kindness of others. But you are so fucking selfish and self-centered you think this forum is some sort of utopia of democracy. If you were physically doing what you do here you would be the geek that posts endless dribble on the hallway bulletin board every day. People just come along and tear it down. Stop openly fucking with the admin. That is what the PM system if for if that is what you want to do. You challenge him enough in the open and you will see the dark of day. What other fucking forum would have you? So, STFU and moveon.org.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

Personally, I don't hate anyone on this forum. Why would I hate some character that is not the real person. Even Jan doesn't go out into public and pull this shit off. Only I can do that.

gkc
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

What got us through the Great Depression was WWII, not rhetoric. Your second sentence of paragraph 2 dangles the introductory participle so violently, the rest of the sentence is shaken from any possibility of making sense.

Jan, there is nobody on this site, individually or acting collectively, who can afford to buy enough gold to help my holdings increase in value. And that includes me. As of the most recent COT report (published weekly by the CFTC), 253 Large Traders were long 290,895 contracts (each contract consists of 100 ounces of triple-nine-fine gold bullion). To be classified as a "large trader," you must be trading a minimum of 200 contracts.

As usual, your rhetoric gets in the way of any possibility for clear thought.

The image of a cat's ass being wiped by a noodle must have teased you out of thought (apologies to Keats).

Rhetoric is rhetoric, whether used by the right or the left. Your, um, highly selective culls from History prove my point. The cheapest and most trivial rhetorical device is merely taking the part for the whole.

"Small people think small." I beg to differ. Today's Obama Mamas (small in both stature and mental capacity) think quite large, thank you -- about 6 trillion large, at last count. And there is no conceivable way to pay for it with production, which is why Bernanke has to monetize it. Last week's 600 billion is just a start.

Gold isn't sitting at 1400 paper chits per ounce because of MY proselytizing.

You have become quite a nasty little bitch, even during the brief time I have been away.

I don't think your wife has a dick. I think your HUSBAND has one, and I don't think it is large enough to satisfy the hole between your eyes -- the one where your brain used to be.

Okay. I'll go fuck myself. Take care not to lose your cool visualizing the image.

tomjtx
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....

It's nice to be a part of such a happy family.

Maybe it's the holidays.

Ariel Bitran
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
You get to decide what everyone else thinks is funny and what isn't?

nope. but it is my responsibility to understand and redirect conversations if needed (ie moderation)


Quote:
Once again, why don't you do a search on how many "audio" threads he contibutes to on this forum.

dont care. he (and anyone) can post where they like to participate.


Quote:
I can choose to watch or not watch South Park.

You also have the ignore feature on this forum. If you dont wanna see Lamont or hear him, put him on your ignore list and be done with it.


Quote:
Ariel, you don't have a clue about what has transpired between LS and myself over the last five, six years.

dont care. i judge each thread on a post by post basis. and dwelling over past gripes doesn't help us move forward.


Quote:
You find him funny.

sometimes. i also find him rude and obnoxious.


Quote:
So, you've got my compliant about Lamont's "style".

I will try to hold the standard that if the post is not a personal insult, but a contribution to the topic discussion (with intense sarcasm or not), its almost always ok.

Usually these forums moderate themselves.
I believe the most important thing to remember is that personality or idealogical differences do not mean that you cannot have fun and/or intelligent and/or stupid discourse with someone. As long as we all remember its only discourse and not an episode of yo-mamma.

Ariel Bitran
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Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:
Why would I hate some character that is not the real person?

precisely. while i do get a little tired of your charade Lamont, i still understand that its a charade, and in the nature of conversation and jest.

even Clifton's remarks above, while incisive, were still based on Jan's participation in the conversation and not Jan himself.

this line can be blurred when you get into passionate discussion. I like fun and bitching and name calling. I'm a rock band, thats all we do. But we also treat it very very seriously when the approach is transformed from the spirit of conversation to the damaging spirit of condescension and insult. That makes people feel bad and want to stop talking or just rip your head off.

so if you have something mean to say, make sure you say it with a smile on your face

tomjtx
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Joined: Nov 12 2006 - 2:53pm
Re: The Dem's Actually Won in 2010....


Quote:

Quote:
Why would I hate some character that is not the real person?

precisely. while i do get a little tired of your charade Lamont, i still understand that its a charade, and in the nature of conversation and jest.

even Clifton's remarks above, while incisive, were still based on Jan's participation in the conversation and not Jan himself.

this line can be blurred when you get into passionate discussion. I like fun and bitching and name calling. I'm a rock band, thats all we do. But we also treat it very very seriously when the approach is transformed from the spirit of conversation to the damaging spirit of condescension and insult. That makes people feel bad and want to stop talking or just rip your head off.

so if you have something mean to say, make sure you say it with a smile on your face

I always consider it a compliment when Lamont tells me to go fuck myself, even without a smiley face.

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