Hello Dup, You obviously have very strong opinions about the type of hifi gear other people should listen to, lest you brand them as an idiot- does that extend to other areas as well - do you blow a head gasket when you hear that other people eat different food than you, drive a different car or wear a different brand of cheap track pants???

LOL Dude, I'm so glad you're back. You're a funny dude and so under appreciated.

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Certain foods, yes. certain cars/SUVS yes. Listen to and promote certain "music", which really can't be considered as such. Oh, so many souls to save, so little time......Let's picture the ultimate head gasket blower. Some 400 pound guy drives up to McDonalds in an SUV cranking out some hip-hop 50 Cent crap, while smoking Camels, and he don't have his headlights on as per the RULES of these here roads, while talking on the cell phone as he pulls into traffic at 3 miles per hour when teh rest of teh highway is doing 60...o, it could be an entire book..... now, what kind of music and food do YOU eat, do you drive an Escalade? or Lincoln Navigator, one person in it? No even better a Hummer, sitting in RT 1 traffic!!! Eating a recently purchased McDonalds double greaser....and he still listens to FM radio!!! Not Sirius I think I gave myself 3 heart attacks already....now, what kind of speaker wires do you use?

Hey DUmPster, I can only hope that while you're having a spastic fit, stopped in the middle of the road in your Toyota Prius, scolding headlight offenders, that said denizen of hip-hop culture (whom you so despise -fear of black people?) in his luxury SUV, creams your ass and puts you out of your misery. Then I can say to Winer: "Yes, there is a God!"

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Certain foods, yes. certain cars/SUVS yes. Listen to and promote certain "music", which really can't be considered as such. Oh, so many souls to save, so little time......Let's picture the ultimate head gasket blower. Some 400 pound guy drives up to McDonalds in an SUV cranking out some hip-hop 50 Cent crap, while smoking Camels, and he don't have his headlights on as per the RULES of these here roads, while talking on the cell phone as he pulls into traffic at 3 miles per hour when teh rest of teh highway is doing 60...o, it could be an entire book..... now, what kind of music and food do YOU eat, do you drive an Escalade? or Lincoln Navigator, one person in it? No even better a Hummer, sitting in RT 1 traffic!!! Eating a recently purchased McDonalds double greaser....and he still listens to FM radio!!! Not Sirius I think I gave myself 3 heart attacks already....now, what kind of speaker wires do you use?

Our very own court jester, back in all his glory

Keep it up, DUP.

I heard a live clarinet the other day and thought it was quite emotional as well as precise, with all the inner detail.

I thought live music was suppose to sound this way? So what gives?

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"Emotional"..the funkiest of the group, under powered, single driver......also not real. This article shows what I have said over and over and over, live, REAL needs power and speakers...no single driver, 8 watt underpowered clock radio amp, is ever gonna deliver REAL. The power required for teh dynamics, SLAM of any real isnturment is beyond teh abiltys of a single driver, low power. It is impossible to deliver. thus teh term "emotional" funkiest of teh group.....

I don't see any one group that is accurate. Although I do not use SET amps, at least some, from what I hear use separate bass amps and subwoofers, where the vast majority of the power is needed.

Large woofers also have their distortion problems with cone flexing etc, while crossovers have their distortion problems as well. Typical speakers can have 3-5% distortion at higher volume levels.

The type of music is also important. Classical, jazz may not reach over 110db or so on peaks while rock may occasionally need to reach 120db, or more. Of course, 120db will lead to permanent hearing loss in about 4 minutes, while 110db only takes approx 15 minutes. Once gone, permanently gone.

So, if I think an undersized underpowered Hi Fi rig is doing a good job of connecting me to the music, I am wrong.

If I am familiar with the sound of larger systems, and even own some, I am still wrong when I compliment the sound of a "DUP Disapproved" system?

Ethan says I'm wrong if I think gear sounds different.

Jan thinks I'm wrong if I think there is a limit to Hi Fi BS.

How about we have Sterophile add a forum for DUP, Jan, and Ethan to post up the inviolable rules of the hobby. That should really help clear things up.

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So, if I think an undersized underpowered Hi Fi rig is doing a good job of connecting me to the music, I am wrong.

If I am familiar with the sound of larger systems, and even own some, I am still wrong when I compliment the sound of a "DUP Disapproved" system?

Ethan says I'm wrong if I think gear sounds different.

Jan thinks I'm wrong if I think there is a limit to Hi Fi BS.

How about we have Sterophile add a forum for DUP, Jan, and Ethan to post up the inviolable rules of the hobby. That should really help clear things up.

LOL.

Rules:

Buddha's not allowed a sense of humor

JV is not allowed to post more than 2 lines at a time

Rvance is not allowed to discuss cowbebells

tomjtx is not allowed to post songs

Alexo is not allowed to gripe about prices

ErikB can't post at all cause he has to study

DUP has to make sense.

never mind, on 2nd thought that forum would be really boring

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Ethan says I'm wrong if I think gear sounds different.

Yet again you misquote me. What I say is if the gear measures the same it will sound the same. Assuming the right stuff is measured. Which is not impossible to do. I am quite aware that a lot of gear out there is inferior, and sadly much of it costs a lot of money. Euphonic distortion and rolled-off or exaggerated highs etc. That gear definitely doesn't sound the same or as good as "normal" gear that is well designed.

--Ethan

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Now Buddha, you know there are RULES in everything, why not in audio? Facts is FACTS, it's been proven over time and decades, small systems can't do LIVE, REAL, SLAM...I've had em all, the bigger it got, the realer it got. Which is more true? Bigger is better, or...... the amount of BS put out as being legit, is never ending. How many tweaks, do dadds, magic connectors, magic this or that has come and gone over 50 years? I think 2 out of 2 actually.

So, this is quite a conundrum. I say I enjoy a certain pair of single driver full ranges, but DUP says it is impossible to do.

Oh, well, I'll just have to keep fooling myself by enjoying them.

DUP, since there are rules, you need to codify them into a Codex DUP so audiophiles and manufacturers can finally get things right.

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Even i don't go 120dB....I MEASURED a LOUD live evnt at like 109dB....and I wear ear plugs.....It was a small local place, the loudest most uncomfortable, live event I ever attened was Kenny Wayne Shepperd at Tweeter Center in Camden N.J. He is a great guitar wizzard, but there really was no reason to be so painfully loud, it was not good, ZZ Top had way too much bass.....Kenny Wayne Shepperd was way overboard on volume, had to hit up into over 115dB...not good at all...Even I have my limits, but man he can wail, he had Double Trouble with him, teh SRV dudes.... Since he cut his hair his last album kinda blows, like Hercules, he needs to get back to his roots, latest album sounds like Lenny Kravitz....I like LOUD, but I know my limits, and know when to say too much....I bet that never happens with 8 watts single driver, cus I can put money it's clipping out way before it's over whelming. LOUDd CLEAN REAL...anything less is not proper reproduction

Decades ago I went to a small live event and should have worn earplugs.

Anyway, 90db sensitive at 1 actual watt, 10 watts peak around 100db.
4 watts 96db, 40 watts peak approx 106db. Most of the power required is for the woofer.

At 100db speakers, only takes approx 10 watts to produce approx 110db. Woofer amp would be much larger.

Cheers.

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the bigger it got, the realer it got. Which is more true? Bigger is better

If it was this mind-numbingly simple, why would John Atkinson say the following in his coverage of the Montreal Show, calling this combo the "Best Sound at FSI"?

"The massive, expensive systems at FSI

DUP, you just proved my point, dude (as well as like 100 others'). It's gratifying to hear you ask "What is BEST?" He he he... What sounds real or best to one person is not so to another. As you say, you & I know that in one show, a 28 wpc push-pull tube amp will make the best-sounding music, but in another, it'll be some mega-watt SS beasts bi-amping humongous speakers. If there was a certain consensus - as you claim - that more power equals more 'realism' in music, then this audio world would be much easier to figure out, because the discerning audiophiles will surely go for what sounds closest to the 'real' experience of live music. And it would also make this hobby boring as hell, as everyone would clamor for same kind of system. But no. The scene/market is fractured precisely b/c everyone listens differently with their own set of criteria. And that's what makes this game so interesting & worthwhile.

So I think you actually asked a really intelligent question: "What is BEST?" I think you have your finger on the pulse. It's relatively easy sorting out what is BAD pretty quickly. Or mediocre. But when it comes to what is BEST? Dissension is pretty much necessary, just to even consider such a prospect. And even when someone says something is 'best,' we should all understand it's a subjective statement.

That said, on a personal note, I have an easier time trusting JA's opinion on what sounded like best music than your ranting opinions. No offense, but it should be pretty clear to any sane person that you lost your objectivity... mmm, a long ago. I'm sure JA doesn't go around saying something was the 'best in show' just because "he can." From his reviews & measurements, one can tell there's an objective distance with which he approaches all equipments. You, on the other hand, don't have this objectivity. It irks you so much to even admit that someone can deem something "best in show" which goes against your idea, that you say JA said it was the best, only because "he can." Even my 3 yr old daughter doesn't use that kind of juvenile reasoning.

I really think you're an asset to this forum b/c you're really funny when you're popping a vein or two, venting on FETs. (Except when you start talking crap about genocide, etc.) But I don't think I'm the only one who doesn't take you toooo seriously when it comes to audio philosophy. Sorry, dood.