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KBK
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CD DeMagnetizing

I was curious about this phenomena when I first heard about it. Interested..but not so interested that I had to rush out and find things out about it right away.

Recently, someone on the forum mentioned it again. Then, I remembered, about 1 year ago or so, I was out at the local version of the Sally Ann,or Goodwill store. They resell used goods for charity-I cruise for neat audio gear, but it is seldom found these days. I had found a rat-shack bulk demagnetizer (new in the box), from the days of yore, when hackers really had to erase their shit, when they are telling the coppers to wait "just one more second!" before they get to the door to let them in.

I heard this recent bit here on the forum about demagnetizing and it got me thinking again. But I could not find the damn demagnetizer. Yesterday I was looking desperately for something else and stumbled across the demagnetizer I bought that year ago.

To make a long story short, I did an experiment where I played a bit of two different CD's so far, and stood in the exact same place in each instance, both before and after the demagnetizing.

My expectations where neutral, I had no idea what to expect and don't recall exactly what people say they hear when it is done. This means I was trying to start with as little bias as possible.

I used Tracy Chapman's first album and The Mavericks: 'Music for All Occasions' for this test.

First I played about 30 seconds of the first three cuts on each CD.

Then, I demagnetized each for a solid 20 seconds in the area of the demagnetizer that concentrates the greatest amount of magnetic AC force or energy, this..by moving the CD's surface around on the demagnetizer in slow circles to get the given CD's metal layer through that area as much as possible and as evenly as possible. Slowly, as well, not fast. Similar to proper demagnetizing technique, just for the sake of using a known technique, even though the application and result is likely to be different.

What I experienced on playback was a drop in the intensity of leading edge transient characteristics and then this effect headed into the treble, which is principally all transient in nature.

What this imparted to the signal reproduction was a seeming reduction in transient hash, softer dynamics, a slightly more open acoustic and a slightly more warm sound. Rhythmic drive was as stable as before, but seemingly softer in 'hardness' of overall drive (hashy edges where lessened in value or intensity). In the Mavericks CD, a bit of violin in the usual slightly screechy country kind of emphasis and way is used, and the emphasis was slightly less 'harsh' or less 'edgy' or less edging into break-up. Ie, reduction of a tendency to go just past an acceptable edginess that a good recording engineer would only reasonably attempt to do/capture (as it real), but CD and digital playback can and do exacerbate. Ie, the tenancy of digitally recorded and played back horns to rip you to pieces like shouted and heaved broken glass, where a more natural effect is to be resonant and have severe drive and 'thru-you' intensity, like a real horn does. After demagnetizing, this digital artifact was ameliorated to a small degree. Notably better than before.

This overall result brought me to one point which is the likely culprit insofar as explanations go.

Pit Edging, which defines the beginning and stop point of the laser when it comes to defining a 'pit' or 'bit' on the CD.

I feel the very leading and lagging edges of the pits have been likely 'rounded' by the intense electromagnetic field off of the demagnetizer, and thus the 'pit definition' is more perfected, and thus, due to how the signal is pulled off the CD's, there is a slight reduction in Jitter borne effects when it comes to bit placement (meaning start-stop bit/pit definition) in the read process.

a secondary component of getting the start-stop of a read to be more defined, with respects to pit edge definition is 'laser splash' inside the CD's plastic polycarbonate layer itself. when the laser hits the edge of the pit, there is a short time where the laser light is spread out and reflected all over the inside of of the disc plastic layer, in the horizontal domain. There is a possibility, however low, that the S/N ratio, at the point where a bit is recognized as existing (beginning)and then recognized as ending is slightly more perfected as 'light splash' may be reduced by this demagnetizing effect. It IS possible to surround the periphery of a CD with LED's and make a CD sound absolutely terrible by screwing around with the read quality in these sorts of ways. This consideration has been known as long as the 'green pen' on the edge of the CD disc days have been around. The green pen is a legitimate thing to do for that reason alone but is actually more subtle than demagnetizing, in my experience.

A someone who plays with the innards of CD players to an extensive degree, I do know my way around a clock mechanism (and every other possible chip and component, chassis, drive mechanism, etc) and know what jitter issues sound like under all possible levels and circumstances. I do a minimum of 250+ single cause analysis experiments in audio every year, and for over 20 years, this has been my daily fare. So I DO know what I'm speaking on and about, as subjects go.

There are very high odds that I will demagnetize all CD's I own, but I have to be sure, of course, that it is a safe effect to pursue with respects to CD lifespan.

KBK
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

I do definitely note that the 'illiteratae', the noobers of the audio world, the naysayers, the 'black and whiters', the 'if I can't figure it out, it must be pure bull' rooftop screamers, that they have not contributed to this thread.

They have stayed far, far away.

If there is a scientific basis appearing for an observed phenomena --then they shut up.

However, in their ignorance, they fail to understand that all I repeat, all items or things in this world that mankind manages to put to scientific test..first comes the 'empirical observation' of an effect or situation via human observation.. then it is looked at close enough to figure out if a test of some sort is valid enough to be applied against the suspected phenomena, and maybe put some meat on the bones of the observation, with respect to developing a theory and hopefully a valid and applicable testing regime.

Science, 101.

Normally, if someone said they 'heard an effect' when they demagnetized a CD, these 'illteratae', would near instantly jump on the given person for being a 'FOOL' of some sort..and begin to gather around and as a group (ie, group beatings. An activity that involves insecure animalism-at it's core)... to pummel the 'observer of phenomena' to the ground, to try and convince that observer that if the illiteratae cannot hear it --then it must be false.

Such unmitigated small minded garbage. Insanity. Childishness. Animalism. Ignorance. Insanity. Inhumanity. And far more.

Once again, note how they remain silent and under the radar when something can somehow seem 'plausible'.

Will they ever learn from their mistakes, to fix those internal issues? I don't know, but all I can do is hope, for I am mortally sick of their crap.

Apologies for ending a note on this observed phenomena with what seems to be an attack on people, but it most definitely needs to be said.

Hearing is a learned skill -as an audiophile-, and that combined with an innate skill of physical capacity for discerning said small components of the audio signal. We all have different capacities and are all at different levels when it comes to working on this skill set.

The naysayer emperor NEVER, EVER had any clothes. EVER.

Not even once.

Their very premise for their complaints was invalid, scientifically unsound, humanly unsound and logically unsound---right from the very moment they opened their mouths.

This point needed to be raised and needed to be said in the same time period -so the evidence, the trail, the moment, the action of the reciprocal of the attacks..that it can be noted and seen - as it happens. Very important.

Buddha
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:
I feel the very leading and lagging edges of the pits have been likely 'rounded' by the intense electromagnetic field off of the demagnetizer, and thus the 'pit definition' is more perfected, and thus, due to how the signal is pulled off the CD's, there is a slight reduction in Jitter borne effects when it comes to bit placement (meaning start-stop bit/pit definition) in the read process.

Which one would be "the intense electromagnetic field off of the demagnetizer?"

Also, if the metal layer is suspended in a relatively solid (polycarbonate) medium, how does it change shape within that medium? Does it compress or move the polycarbonate in some way, or are you saying that there is space within the medium for these metal areas to move around?

If so, maybe we should just be putting them on a mat and giving our CD's a good whack before each play...but then the centrifugal force would quickly have its own effect as tried to play our discs.

Jan Vigne
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Thanks for the report, KBK. Interesting stuff. I've been looking for my old bulk eraser but haven't found the right box of junk yet.

Did you try your experiment with CD's or CD-R's?

Jan Vigne
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:
Also, if the metal layer is suspended in a relatively solid (polycarbonate) medium, how does it change shape within that medium?

The metal "layer" is suspended between two polycarbonate layers. The polycarbonate hasn't filled the pits to the point they cannot be reformed.

KBK
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Regular CD.

I'm afraid to try a burned disc, I think it's gonna fry it.

The metal is literally vapour thin, so the energy levels per cubic mm of material is relatively high. This means that there is a decent enough level of plausibility that the mirco sized pit edges are being 'melted' and thus re-defined' Ie, softened and reformed.

For example, metal bar stock is created via the use of magnetic induction heaters. The cubic volume of metal vs energy and excitatation via the alterantiong field is the real deal or consideration.

If one was to analyze the energy in the gap of the de-magnetizer and then compare it to the amount of metal (cubic volume of metal that is in the gap)..you would very likely come to a point of understanding that the magnetic energy imparted to the disc is higher than an industrial level metal bar stock induction heater.

Remember, it's the cubic volume of metal in the induction field's given energy level.

The amount of metal in the CD is vanishingly small, but all of the energy of my 7 amp 120V de-magnetizer is going completely into that tiny bit of metal. The ratio might easily exceed that of an industrial induction heater, for all I know.

Broadly speaking, amps x AC volts comes close to expressing wattage, for basic calculations. So, it's 7x120, for approx 850 watts of energy. Minus the losses that are inevitable, let's move that down to 700 watts, to be safe.

Now, let us research how much metal is in CD, in the small area of the CD that is being affected in the short time the de-magnetizer is on that 'area' (square footage of surface area on the disc).

Anyone know? That's the next step. Then compare to known bar stock induction heater designs, just to get a ballpark feel for the energy levels involved here.

I have quick off the cuff thing I'm going to attempt to get a feel for this.

The rat shack demagger will pick up full sized screwdriver from about 2.5 inches and hold it in the gap. I'm going to try it and see if it heats up the screwdriver. That's just shy of 1HP of energy in that gap!

That should answer this question.

OK. it heats up the screwdriver. It is Vandy steel. Quite conductive. I have a decent LCR.

Screwdriver shaft is 5.8mm.

The measured shaft length where the demagger has an effect is about 2" long.

Wiki AWG sizing info says that the gauge is about...AWG #3 (5.83mm is AWG#3).

AWG #3 sized tough pitch Copper is about 0.1970 per 1000 ft.

2 inches of AWG #3 copper would be...0.1970/12/1000=0.0000328 ohms of resistance.

One also has to remember I am not measuring the resistance of the whole terminating surface area, I am only measuring across the point of the LCR meter clips that touch the Chrome Vandy screwdriver shaft, so the actual resistance of the chrome vandy is definitely lower than the # I managed to read, which was 0.0008 ohms@100Hz for that 2" length of shaft of Chrome Vandy.

RESIST. COND. SOURCE
ohm-m SIEMENS/m % IACS CODE MATERIAL
1.611E-07 6.206E+06 10.70 1 Steel, Cast
5.945E-07 1.682E+06 2.90 1 Steel, High Alloy
6.897E-07 1.450E+06 2.50 1 Steel, 304 Stainless
6.897E-07 1.450E+06 2.50 2 Steel, 304 Stainless
7.184E-07 1.392E+06 2.40 1 Steel, 347 Stainless
7.184E-07 1.392E+06 2.40 2 Zircaloy - 2
7.496E-07 1.334E+06 2.30 1 Steel, 316 Stainless

There is a chart, for what it is worth. Not much to use there.

The point is the very very thin layer of the metal in the disc will have VERY high levels of Resistance to the magnetic field that is fluctuating at the same time that ALL of the of the magnetically induced energies will simply HAVE TO travel through it.

Therefore, if the screwdriver shaft gets warm...imagine what happens to the ultra thin (vapor thin, literally!!!) layer on the CD.

It gets flash heated, at the very least. As the field will travel around the micro pits, it will also concentrate on the open EDGES of the pits, as this is the nature of an AC magnetic field. The edges of the pits will be under notably more thermal distress compared to any other area.

Therefore, it is plausible to aim toward investigating the reformation of the pit edges as being the likely culprit to this noted increase in fidelity for the mechanical aspects of a good CD read. This, with respects to how CD's are read in the real world by their associated hardware.

You see, I end up knowing all kinds of freaky little factoids like this, over the years.

Due to their value in the marketplace and what can be done to make a few $ to put food on the table, I keep it to myself.

You can see how if I kept my mouth shut I might be able to come up with a product line of devices that explore this effect in a deeper and/or more commercial manner.

The smart guys keep their mouths shut, and to hell with the ignorant, specifically the naysayers. As John Curl said to me the other day in a thread on the DIY Audio forum (I paraphrase), "It's OK KBK. Don't pay attention. In the end, the laugh is on them."

cyclebrain
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Does the fact that the metal in the disk is non-ferrous aluminum and unaffected by magnetic fields mean anything?
Digital circuits are meant to translate inputs into either a one or a zero. There is a certain level of signal that defines if it is a high or a low. Signal levels should not be close to this definition level and should pass through it as quickly as possible. A very fast rise time minimizes the amount of time for a circuit to pass through this zone of indifference. Slowing down the rise time has the opposite effect.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:
Does the fact that the metal in the disk is non-ferrous aluminum and unaffected by magnetic fields mean anything?
Digital circuits are meant to translate inputs into either a one or a zero. There is a certain level of signal that defines if it is a high or a low. Signal levels should not be close to this definition level and should pass through it as quickly as possible. A very fast rise time minimizes the amount of time for a circuit to pass through this zone of indifference. Slowing down the rise time has the opposite effect.

Induction heaters are used very specifically in the aluminum bar stock business. So yes, the energies will heat up the aluminum layer.

If the pit edges are more defined than a more correctly timed begin-end pit read time period would be the result. This is a more stable and correctly timed read, and thus - less induced jitter. Besides any possible increase in S/N ratio from less 'laser spray' (internal to the polycarbonate layer) that would assist directly in a better read.

Less spray due to a better pit edge definition creates a smaller zone of indifference, additionally, -- so the two effects double up for a greater than expected qualitative effect.

So yes, the old bugaboo of/in the 'indifference' range of a transiting signal in a digital system is Key to understanding this potential answer for this observed effect-as you have noted.

This, due to how the data is assembled to get to a 'word' for a Redbook CD signal from the laser system to the hardware proper.

I find the 'heard' results of the de-magging to be bigger than that of moving the same electronics/hardware to a more stable platform. Ie, LG or Samsung drive mechanisms as compared to that of a Teach Esoteric or Philips mechanisms.

A bigger difference (change) in fidelity-to the better. definitely.

Take that evaluation with a grain of salt and maybe try it yourself.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:
Does the fact that the metal in the disk is non-ferrous aluminum and unaffected by magnetic fields mean anything?

I was under the impression that all metals were at least slightly magnetic. Plus I believe that a magnetic field can be used change the path of a stream of charged particles such as a laser . I'm not saying that together these could change sound quality because I haven't tried it but I allow for the theoretical possibility.

KBK
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Just remember, that if I can define it exactly and outline the claims -- I could have patented the whole shebang.

Seriously. My patent lawyer has over 15 years of doing this sort of work in the USPTO system (US Patent offices), and yes, it would have flown - and it would be solid. And it would have held it's ground against challenges. Know your patent law.

The point being that casual observation does NOT equal specific action, or, scientifically backed and detailed claims with a directed and expected proven outcome.

THAT..is patent law. Even of known phenomena. Patent law is APPLICATION law, most specifically, yes! Remember that. Meaning, you cannot patent the actions of the Sun, but you can patent an application that makes use of the action of the sun, IF you can specifically claim and prove the specific effect as being 'unique', EVEN IF the action involves suntanning or some other well known associated thing. Ie, assembled in a new way with a new specific purpose, which both are 'unique'. It's all in the language of the claims. It's an art.

So yes, I just gave it way. (I've got much, Much, much bigger fish to fry)

So there you go. That's patent # 12 I've given away on forums. I keep a count.

Enjoy!

This means that as of this date, this Friday Jan 23rd, 2009, that if a provisional or full patent application that outlines these effect with regards to demagging, or specifically induction heating a CD for the stated purposes...are NOT already at the patent office -they are fucked.

I am the -ONLY- one who can do that now, as of this date.

So yes, I'm the sole person who can STILL patent it.

But I'm not going to.

It's open season on the commercial and or industrial creation of said devices. You could make your own, companies can make and sell them to you and the high end audiophile CD companies can make them and use them in their pressing factories or after the bulk CD's are delivered to them. Even in their packaging, maybe (watch our for RFID's and staples overheating!)

As I said before, way back when I first appeared on this forum, --It's all about the tunage! Better tunes for everyone.

Oh yes. Third effect and multiplier:

Increased correctness in hardware settling times due to more determined 'bit' recognition. This on it's own creates a better word read. What I mean is the stable read itself increases the stability of the electronics system with respects to jitter creation. The CD hardware guys will know exactly what I mean by that.

Jan Vigne
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:
As I said before, way back ...

As you said, there doesn't seem to be any naysayers in sight. Good job, KBK.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:

Quote:
Also, if the metal layer is suspended in a relatively solid (polycarbonate) medium, how does it change shape within that medium?

The metal "layer" is suspended between two polycarbonate layers. The polycarbonate hasn't filled the pits to the point they cannot be reformed.

So, there is air space, or vacuum space?

I did not know that.

I've seen pictures of scanning EM's of the pits, I wonder if the changes you postulate could be seen at that gross of a level.

geoffkait
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

As an old hand with Rat Shack BTE, technique is very important. Circular motion for 2 seconds, one side only. Release the button on the BTE only after BTE has been pulled away from CD 2-3 feet.

You might also have luck using passing the BTE over the interconnects, once only. YMMV.

Cheers

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Remind me some time to bring you up to speed on the Nespa, described in the excellent article, "Photon Cannons," by the two PhDs in Netherlands. The Nespa is a fascinating little gizmo (from Japan) that purportedly affects pit/land geometry in the thin metal layer.

Cheers

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:
Remind me some time to bring you up to speed on the Nespa, described in the excellent article, "Photon Cannons," by the two PhDs in Netherlands. The Nespa is a fascinating little gizmo (from Japan) that purportedly affects pit/land geometry in the thin metal layer.

Cheers

I'm familiar with it.

Another device where before and after imaging would be 'enlightening.'

Maybe they should try it on LP's.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:
Plus I believe that a magnetic field can be used change the path of a stream of charged particles such as a laser .

A laser beam is NOT a stream of charged particles. Take a high school physics course sometime and find out just what it is.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

gotta love the passive aggressive rants, posted intentionally to stir something up...

why rehash what has been said so many times? it doesnt change. if there is a difference, there is a reason why, and that reason can be measured. enjoy your little experiment.

what is the sound of one hand clapping?

Quote:
I do definitely note that the 'illiteratae', the noobers of the audio world, the naysayers, the 'black and whiters', the 'if I can't figure it out, it must be pure bull' rooftop screamers, that they have not contributed to this thread.

They have stayed far, far away.

If there is a scientific basis appearing for an observed phenomena --then they shut up.

However, in their ignorance, they fail to understand that all I repeat, all items or things in this world that mankind manages to put to scientific test..first comes the 'empirical observation' of an effect or situation via human observation.. then it is looked at close enough to figure out if a test of some sort is valid enough to be applied against the suspected phenomena, and maybe put some meat on the bones of the observation, with respect to developing a theory and hopefully a valid and applicable testing regime.

Science, 101.

Normally, if someone said they 'heard an effect' when they demagnetized a CD, these 'illteratae', would near instantly jump on the given person for being a 'FOOL' of some sort..and begin to gather around and as a group (ie, group beatings. An activity that involves insecure animalism-at it's core)... to pummel the 'observer of phenomena' to the ground, to try and convince that observer that if the illiteratae cannot hear it --then it must be false.

Such unmitigated small minded garbage. Insanity. Childishness. Animalism. Ignorance. Insanity. Inhumanity. And far more.

Once again, note how they remain silent and under the radar when something can somehow seem 'plausible'.

Will they ever learn from their mistakes, to fix those internal issues? I don't know, but all I can do is hope, for I am mortally sick of their crap.

Apologies for ending a note on this observed phenomena with what seems to be an attack on people, but it most definitely needs to be said.

Hearing is a learned skill -as an audiophile-, and that combined with an innate skill of physical capacity for discerning said small components of the audio signal. We all have different capacities and are all at different levels when it comes to working on this skill set.

The naysayer emperor NEVER, EVER had any clothes. EVER.

Not even once.

Their very premise for their complaints was invalid, scientifically unsound, humanly unsound and logically unsound---right from the very moment they opened their mouths.

This point needed to be raised and needed to be said in the same time period -so the evidence, the trail, the moment, the action of the reciprocal of the attacks..that it can be noted and seen - as it happens. Very important.

Jan Vigne
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:
why rehash what has been said so many times? it doesnt change. if there is a difference, there is a reason why, and that reason can be measured. enjoy your little experiment.

Brilliant rejoinder, ncdrawl, just brilliant.

LOL!

cyclebrain
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Oh, were taking about induction heating. I misunderstood. From the subject name I thought that the claims were being made because of demagnitizing.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

"I'm familiar with it. Another device where before and after imaging would be 'enlightening.' Maybe they should try it on LP's."

Probably photon bombardment will not work for LPs; however we know that subjecting LPs to cryogenic treatment will improve the sound quite a bit, reducing noise and distortion. One theory is the cryo treatment removes stored energy in the vinyl material, reducing noise. So, on one hand the CD is apparently amenable to Magnetic, Photon and Temperature treatment, while LP only Magnetic and Temperature, But 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

The 6 Moons Nespa Review Summary below if anyone interested:

Summary of the Nanotec Nespa Review by 6 Moons:

"Our search ended with Japan's Hitachi Corp. They produce almost anything imaginable, including CD production systems. Here we found a clue that linked Nanotec's theory on the workings of their Nespa and Kait's effects of the IC. Hitachi states that it is common knowledge that surfaces of certain plastics are modified by ultra-violet light irradiation. UV has a short wavelength and thus high energy. UV is able to cut the stable bonds of the molecules at the surface of the plastic. While doing this, the surface will be flattened and smoothed. When the plastic to be treated happens to be a polycarbonate -- a plastic which contains oxygen -- the effect of UV treatment is even stronger.

So by means of UV treatment, a CD made from polycarbonate is changed at the plastic surface. This is the same effect that is used in hardening or curing with UV. Polycarbonate is an amorphous substance, hence its great optical qualities. Take for example lenses and glasses made from it. In chemistry, it is called Fries rearrangement by means of photo-chemical excitation. That's also the action of our photon cannons. Back to Hitachi. They have fabricated an optical disc stamping machine that bombards a freshly stamped disc with UV before it is sputtered with aluminum or gold. They thus used prior UV exposure on the information carrying side of the disc. While UV treating the disc, Hitachi claims that the slight hardening and thus smoothing of the surface decreased noise when the finished disc was played. The 'pollution' that caused the noise was the irregular surface of the areas between the pits and lands. Hitachi provides hard figures as well. An untreated disc has a surface roughness of 1.0nm (nanometer). In comparison, a pit has a 'height' of 0.11mm (micrometer), 10.000 times larger. Hitachi measured the noise level and with a surface roughness of 1.0nm found a noise level of -123dBm/Hz while after UV treatment, the roughness minimized to 0.6nm and the noise level to -127dBm/Hz.

This is all fine for a stamper. Audiophiles have to deal with a finished product where the pits are already covered with a shiny layer, including this alleged surface roughness. The question remains why the photon bombardment does what it does. Is the reflective layer, the mirror, enhancing the photons' power right at the border of the two materials to give credence to Nanotec's theory? And what is the effect of the polycarbonate itself as it is slowing the incoming light's speed by almost 50% while also refracting and focusing it? Too bad we still have all of these questions remaining but hey, what do we know? We're just hobbyists."

~ Cheerio

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Nespa Specs:

The flash applied is rated at 1000mW/sec, has a temperature of 5500K and light intensity of one million Lux. So in fact the disc is exposed to sunlight without destroying it.

____________________

I wonder why, if Hitachic studied ultraviolet light, Nespa would not try to do the same thing, instead, opting for a the 5500K visible light flash bulb with such a small UV component?

Interestingly, Hitachi even makes ultra-violet curing equipment that Nespa could have OEM'd, but the Hitachi Uv treatment color temperature profile is much different.

Also, as described in your reply, UV light's effect is not related to 'hot temperature' in how it breaks bonds, but the Nespa review says, "...with the applied heat possibly evaporating the pulverized residue."

I think the author(s) confuse that 'temperature' data with heat and not with 'color temperature' and overlook Hitachi's direct report that what they did was smooth surface irregularities, not "pulverize" things inside the CD.

The Hitachi claim regards only the surface of the disc, and not the area "between the reflective film and the polycarbonate."

Hitachi's studies are reported as being entirely surface related.

You can Google the wavelengths for their 'treatment.' Nothing really to do with a 5500K flash bulb operating primarily in the visible spectrum.

Oh, well. We see many instances in tweaks of someone finding a scientific tidbit and then grabbing it as a product sales spiel.

Not saying the Nespa 'can't' work, just that the explanation isn't right.

The Nespa may work great for its proponents, no quibbles about their satisfaction are implied by my reply.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Yeah, I found a couple nits to pick, myself... oh, well, guess PhDs are fallible like the rest of us. I wish information could be put on a spoon and inserted into the mouth like pablum.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


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Yeah, I found a couple nits to pick, myself... oh, well, guess PhDs are fallible like the rest of us. I wish information could be put on a spoon and inserted into the mouth like pablum.

Wow, those reviewers are PhDs?

As to the spoons full of pablum - they seem to be able to spew it, just not serve it!

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Yup, Marja and Henk, husband and wife from Netherlands.

Whatever nits one might have, you have to admit they go WAY beyond the usual, "I don't know how the thing works but it does" observations one usually gets from reviewers.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


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Yup, Marja and Henk, husband and wife from Netherlands.

Whatever nits one might have, you have to admit they go WAY beyond the usual, "I don't know how the thing works but it does" observations one usually gets from reviewers.

Yes, they do go way beyond "I don't know how the thing works but it does," they actually make up reasons.

PhD's who don't know about how light characteristics can be expressed as temperature. Got any biography material?

I wonder why Nespa never saw fit to offer a correction. If they were sharpeners, they should be all over getting the details explained.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Buddha, you should contact them, I'm pretty sure they'd be delighted someone actually read the article.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


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Buddha, you should contact them, I'm pretty sure they'd be delighted someone actually read the article.

They seem quite nice.

Plus, the not so amazing randy doesn't like them, so that's a point in their favor.

I've gotten to hang with Srajan a few times and enjoyed his company, too.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:

Quote:
Plus I believe that a magnetic field can be used change the path of a stream of charged particles such as a laser .

A laser beam is NOT a stream of charged particles. Take a high school physics course sometime and find out just what it is.

Here is what I read (http://www.wonderquest.com/extinctions-safetyglass-magnetslasers.htm)

A: A magnet can bend the path of any moving charged particle. In fact, that

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

A magnet can bend laser light by virtue of magnet's mass; the spacetime around the magnet is slightly distorted, bending the laser light a tiny amount.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


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The flash applied is rated at 1000mW/sec, has a temperature of 5500K and light intensity of one million Lux. So in fact the disc is exposed to sunlight without destroying it.

After reading this thread, there seem to be quite a few disjoints in the information.

The '1000 mW/sec' is not clear. The unit 'watt' is energy delivery per unit time (Joules/second). So Joules/sec/sec means what?

Metals have different magnetic properties. The information taught in physics classes include such things as ferromagnetic vs. paramagnetic vs. non-magnetic. But basically students simplify it as: the first one is that attracted by magnets, the third is not, and can't remember what the second is. One can say that all metals are affected by magnetic fields to some varying degree. What that does to the metal on a CD remains to be better explained, as far as I can tell.

Regarding the polycarbonate plastic not completely surrounding the metal pits, that may be so or not so. If it is not true, then the metal is supported on all sides and has nowhere to go when the metal is claimed to be moving. If it is true, then the laser radiation should not see a good transition on some of the pits of an non-demagnitized CD.

If the demagnitizer is heating the metal enough to soften the plastic so that it can deform, what force is doing the deforming and in what direction? Moving metal and plastic around might be a rather random outcome, so one never knows what shape of pit will result. Can you feel the temperature rise in the plastic after the metal is heated by the demagnitizer? Polycarbonate has a fairly high softening temperature, I thought.

Either way, I'm skeptical of the process and the outcome. However, I'd be willing to try it myself to see if I can detect any difference large enough not to have to depend upon a DBT to remove my experimenter 'non-naivete status' bias from this experiment.

As an aside, I did try the "Rain-X" treatment on CDs a long time ago and there was a unmistakable difference before and after. I'm not sure which was 'better', but the treble was reduced in the treated discs compared to the untreated ones. Washing with detergent in an attempt to remove the Rain-X was not completely successful. It seems like the treble was partially restored, but not to the level of the original untreated disc.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


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A magnet can bend laser light by virtue of magnet's mass; the spacetime around the magnet is slightly distorted, bending the laser light a tiny amount.

So, unless you alter a CDs mass, it's magnetic state will not affect how it interacts with laser light.

I would agree with you.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:

Quote:
A magnet can bend laser light by virtue of magnet's mass; the spacetime around the magnet is slightly distorted, bending the laser light a tiny amount.

So, unless you alter a CDs mass, it's magnetic state will not affect how it interacts with laser light.

I would agree with you.

The question of will a magnet deflect or not deflect a laser beam is irrelevent here.
1. A CD is not magnetic.
2. If the CD was magnetic the tiny amount of energy reletive to the short distance that the beam travels would be insignificant.

Has anybody here bothered to look at a CD under high magnification for changes in pit structure after "treatment"?

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


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1. A CD is not magnetic.

Not true. We discussed this back in the "Furutech" thread. There are magnetic and paramagnetic materials in a CD.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Noone is suggesting magnetism would change the pit structure, are they?

Cheers

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


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Noone is suggesting magnetism would change the pit structure, are they?

Cheers

A little...

KBK said: "Therefore, it is plausible to aim toward investigating the reformation of the pit edgesbeing the likely culprit to this noted increase in fidelity for the mechanical aspects of a good CD read."

So, some structural change, yes.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:

Has anybody here bothered to look at a CD under high magnification for changes in pit structure after "treatment"?

I tried. I have the magnification but not the lighting. (about 1600x)

We have to look at how the pits are formed, ie, on/off of the etch or exactly how it is done. IIRC it is photo system, is it not? Therefore the effect may be darned near molecular in level,and thus decreasing the indeterminate area as it is working on the area of indeterminacy, via oscillating the fine gradations in 'contrast' or 'reflection' in this no-man's land of etch/no etch which exists on the edges of a pit.

To do it commercially I would suggest a specific targeting of the AC frequency for maximum effect on that size area that is in question...and to re-design a 'donut zapper' for this task.

A donut zapper is for charging the ring magnets for making a loudspeaker driver's motor system.

Initial experiments can be done with more simplistic magnetic methods with regards to finding the correct AC frequency and waveform.

Just be sure to not have anyone near such a machine in a commercial/industrial market. Those donut zappers are dangerous, due to the magnetics and the extreme levels of said magnetics. (they have to be bolted to the floor they- try to twist in three axis)

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

I just remembered.

There are 4 different magnetic induction sealers at work, for doing this EXACT type of thing to aluminum/tin lid liners for jar sealing.

One of them is mine! I paid $20k for it. Everything but the frequency is programmable.

Doh! And it sure as heck WILL melt a CD, no problem there. We have set foil liners on fire with them before.

It's the same type of liner you pull off your Peanut butter or mayonnaise jar.

No donut zapper required. Damn. It's kinda like a howitzer in comparison to the foil induction sealers, and guys do like things that go 'bang!'...

The sealer is exactly designed for production use and has it's own conveyor belt system.

We gots three of these:

http://www.pillartech.com/Sealers/hand-held-sealer.htm

and one of these:

http://www.pillartech.com/Sealers/images/enlage/2kW-UC.jpg

The trick is to not make just a difference, which is easy..but to quantitatively make the CD work better, to work more correctly.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Be a lot less hassle to take the CD to a metalurgy lab equipped w/ electron microscope to examine and photograph the disc prior to and after any treatment you wish -- deguassing, Nespa, Intelligent Chip, what have you -- to see if pit structure is affected. You might have a small problem however -- locating the same pit(s) before and after treatment for comparison.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

LOL, I promised myself I'd stay out of this comedy of errors, but I couldn't resist. I sent a link to this thread to my long-ago first studio partner who now lives in New Hampshire, and here's what he just wrote back, unedited and uncensored:


Quote:
This KBK rambles on how he moved the pits on a CD with a demagnetizer?! This guy is a complete loon. And of course he can hear his moved pits sounding better. It's always better with these guys, never worse. The pits moved to just the correct spot because the CD manufacturer had the pits in the wrong place. LOL! But his demagnetizer solved the problem of a multi-million dollar CD stamping machine. What a Fucking TOOL! This guy is wasting air that could be used for sane people.

Buddha
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

I cheated and magnetized a CD. It sounded better, too.

Left it on a powerful magnet for a week and it sounded better when I played it.

I'll let you know how long the effect lasts before it requires re-magnetization.

Maybe it's an 'either end of the spectrum' thing.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


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What a Fucking TOOL! This guy is wasting air that could be used for sane people.

Hey, do me a FUCKING favor.

Ask this guy this, if someone told him curdling milk and mixing it with the lining of a dead cow's stomach, mixing in some grodey ol'fungus dug up from the roots of a tree, then leaving it out in the "sane people's" air for two years would make it taste better, what proof would he need before he tried it?

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

I have a cheapo de-magnetizer -- the Bedini Ultra-Clarifier, which cost about 60 bucks when I bought it. I figured, "What's to lose"? As you all know, I have to hear this stuff for myself. I tried it only because my old friend Robert Harley said he heard some improvements using this unit.

It only improves sound about 25% to 50% of the time. When it does, there is an audible decrease in glare, and an increase in apparent soundstage size, both width and depth. At first, I thought that the improvements came randomly. Over time, I realized that most of the time improvements became apparent, it was with older CD's. I noticed it most on a few Deutsche-Grammophone recordings done in the late 1980's. I have no idea why this is so.

Also, the unit helped the playability of a few of my Philips CD's (Brendel playing Mozart concertos). I am still using a Meridian 508-24 CD player. It has terrific sound, but, considering its cost (around $4,000), it is a piece of shit mechanically. It just refuses to read about 10% of my 2,500-CD collection, except for the occasional time it decides to cooperate. It jabbers and squeaks, gets hung up like a needle in a scratched groove, then just goes all the way to the end of the CD, playing nothing in between. My Sony SACD player (the old top-loader) tracks ALL these discs.

The Meridian will someday end up on the hood of the 1978 Pontiac that parks beneath my patio window.

But, I digress. Occasionally, I will take the offending CD and run it on the Bedini. Miraculously, the Meridian will then track it. The fix is not permanent, however, and I have to repeat the process later, if I don't play the CD for awhile.

Of course, to assert that the de-magnetizing process somehow realigns the pits and grooves seems absurd, even to me -- that is, even to someone who has no idea how these fucking tin plates work. However, since magnetism is a field, my tiny brain tells me it may have something to do with the laser end of the hook-up. Perhaps the de-magnetizing process affects, for a brief time, the way the laser interacts with the CD.

The above, incidentally, is just ONE of the many reasons why I prefer vinyl. The needle plays EVERYTHING, without protest, until it hits a physical barrier (scratch, crud, whatever). Then, you just get up, walk over, and re-set the needle one or two grooves over. No mysteries. Just music.

Anyway, I would not necessarily recommend the Bedini to anyone. It has done okay, for 60 bucks. It has allowed me to hear some improvements, to some CD's, occasionally, and it has allowed me to play some CD's that the Meridian refused to track, before de-magnification.

Why not just play everything on the Sony? Because, alas, the Meridian sounds better, when it decides to cooperate mechanically. And, like most audiophiles and music lovers (not to mention the commodities and stock traders, and golfers), I have come to understand that no day is complete without pain. Whenever things are going too smoothly, I just throw a Philips CD in my Meridian (or an occasional Columbia or Deutsche-Grammophone), and accept the pain I so richly deserve...

Happy tunes.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:
LOL, I promised myself I'd stay out of this comedy of errors, but I couldn't resist. I sent a link to this thread to my long-ago first studio partner who now lives in New Hampshire, and here's what he just wrote back, unedited and uncensored:


Quote:
This KBK rambles on how he moved the pits on a CD with a demagnetizer?! This guy is a complete loon. And of course he can hear his moved pits sounding better. It's always better with these guys, never worse. The pits moved to just the correct spot because the CD manufacturer had the pits in the wrong place. LOL! But his demagnetizer solved the problem of a multi-million dollar CD stamping machine. What a Fucking TOOL! This guy is wasting air that could be used for sane people.

Well, I took this to the highest authority.

My wife.

And here's what she said, unedited and uncensored:

"Who on earth is that guy to say KBK is waisting air that could be used on sane people? You're all a bunch of tools to begin with. Ethan's friend is worse than Aunt Harriet."(That would be a bad thing, Ethan.)

Sorry, Ethan, KBK may be a tool (to use your friend's word,) but he's our tool. Your friend is out of order unless he wants to come register and join the festivities and let KBK call him names in return.

Of course, Ethan, this invalidates everything you will ever say about any other subject.

Now, be a good boy and go report back on whether Jan properly trimmed the shrubberies.

Oy, Ethan, cyber-stalking and now sniping by proxy.

What's next, posting may's dress size?

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

>>> "I cheated and magnetized a CD. It sounded better, too.

Left it on a powerful magnet for a week and it sounded better when I played it.

I'll let you know how long the effect lasts before it requires re-magnetization.

Maybe it's an 'either end of the spectrum' thing." <<<

Stay with "Maybe it's an 'either end of the spectrum' thing." I.e BOTH magnetising and de-magnetising have an effect !!!

Put on another thinking hat. Think Polarity and Electret. And, include vinyl records (i.e also made of plastic material) !!!!

An Electret is a piece of plastic which has been permanently polarised - a polarity induced into it - (some crystals also have a natural permanent polarity).

A CD is a plastic, aluminium, plastic layered disc. Imagine a (new) pristine plastic, aluminium, plastic layered disc which, when played, is then spun, horrendously, within an electromagnetic field. Could this plastic, aluminium, plastic layered disc acquire, over a period of time and from extended playing, a (temporary ??) polarity induced into (OR on) it ???? The CD is 'read' in a certain direction - a one way direction !! As is a vinyl record. A vinyl record is always 'read' in the direction from the outer edge to the inner hole by the cartridge (which also contains a magnetic field) - NEVER the other way round and NEVER in alternate directions - so any induced polarisation will always be one way !!

Say (hypothetically) this induced polarisation of the disc is adverse (to sound) but because it takes place imperceptibly, over time, it is not noticed because the adverse change to the sound is so gradual. I use the word adverse because if you can do something to the disc and improve the sound, then the condition PRIOR to doing whatever you did must have been adverse !!!!

By the disc spinning horrendously and repeatedly in an electromagnetic field, do we now have an induced polarisation pattern on the disc (albeit a temporary one) ?? By applying a magnetic influence (either magnetising or demagnetising) to that disc, is the temporary but adverse polarisation altered or reduced sufficiently for the adverse effect on the sound to also be perceived as reduced ????? Because, if an adverse effect is reduced, then the sound would be described as 'better'.

Here is the crunch bit. The bit which causes such problems. That the effect I am suggesting DOES NOT alter, in any way, the digital information already stored on the CD but the effect DOES alter the SOUND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>> "I'll let you know how long the effect lasts before it requires re-magnetization." <<<

If, after magnetising, the disc is then played many times again, the induced polarisation could take place again, so yes, the disc COULD require re-magnetising again some time later !!!!
You will no doubt be aware that when using de-magnetising devices, it is recommended that the de-magnetising of the disc is repeated at regular intervals.

Why would you say that you 'cheated', Buddha, by experimenting with magnetising a CD ?

Surely you have been investigating and experimenting most of your professional life ??

You will also see from Clinton's posting re demagnetising - he is using the description of the improvements in the sound as "audible decrease in glare, and an increase in apparent soundstage size, both width and depth" !!!!! SO MANY people use those identical words to describe the improvement they hear whether they have used the technique of cryogenic freezing, colouring the edge of CDs, Harmonix discs in the room, tiny room resonance devices, new interconnects etc. Etc.

Something is going on that cannot be explained from conventional electronic or acoustic theories but which affects SOUND !!

Supposing there is a temporary polarisation taking place on the CD ? BUT, that that polarisation does NOT alter the actual digital information stored on the disc ?

With that concept, Welsh Hi Fi would not need to 'get hot under the collar' because the digital information, stored on the disc, would not have been changed - so, in that respect he would be right. BUT, YOU would also be right when you experienced the sound better after magnetising a CD, Michael Fremer would also be right when HE experienced an improvement in the sound after applying a de-magnetiser to a CD and Clinton would also be right when HE describes hearing an improvement of "audible decrease in glare, and an increase in apparent soundstage size, both width and depth" after HE treated some CDs with the Bedini Ultra-Clarifier.

If there IS a polarisation taking place on a CD, then this is a PHYSICAL happening. IF magnetising or de-magnetising a CD can create an improvement in the sound, then this is a PHYSICAL happening. Are so many things happening REALLY going to be continually dismissed as "auto-suggestion", "the placebo effect", "imagination", "snake oil", "audio faith healing", "effective marketing", "needing props, talismans, rituals, potions, elixirs etc" ??

Regards.
May Belt.

geoffkait
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Much as I dislike complicating matters, I submit that we know demagnetization works for interconnects as well as CDs, so there's an excellent chance the commonly held theory that a magnetized CD negatively affects the laser beam is incorrect. Ditto the theory of changing the CD pit structure magnetically.

GK

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Further investigation:

The effect only lasts one play before degradation of the sound takes place. But, it does last for the whole length of the CD. Whew!

I am finding that one week on the magnet gets it to the point of diminishing returns for further magnetization. Then play it, then back on for a week...

Much like LP's should only be played once per day, CD's should only be played once per week and stored in a magnetic field.

New finding:

I have some very powerful magnets, and the best result is with a CD stored 'sandwiched' between two magnets.

In this fashion, with sufficient pretreament (sorry, it's proprietary. I could be assassinated, to my own detriment, for even having told you this much) and storage conditions, I have created a new CD state wherein it becomes a magnetic monopole and seems to remain free of either magnetism or demagnetism - a magnetic-independent CD state, even if those horrible inks are left on it.

I anyone would care to give it a spin, I'll sell them based on my time spent (charged out at minimun wage, since I can multitask) and you can see for youself.

Send me two copies of a CD, I will treat one, not treat the other, and then send them back for you to compare in blind fashion. One will sound better than the other.

Buddha's new Magnetic Monopole CD's will be the bomb. They will henceforth be called "51st State" CD's.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


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Buddha's new Magnetic Monopole CD's will be the bomb. They will henceforth be called "51st State" CD's.

Jus'like the Republicans. Nothing to say, so you talk dirt about what will work.

Send me your magnets to try. You can get my address from Winer.

Don't even ask.

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:

Quote:
Buddha's new Magnetic Monopole CD's will be the bomb. They will henceforth be called "51st State" CD's.

Jus'like the Republicans. Nothing to say, so you talk dirt about what will work.

Send me your magnets to try. You can get my address from Winer.

Don't even ask.

Sorry, these magnets would pull that plate right out of your cranium.

I'm not talking dirt, I'm talking new ways of thinking about this magnetism stuff. You pseudo-subjectivists get so upset when someone asks you to listen putside your rule-based box.

Did I mention that to make this work you have to have positive to positive magnet poles? Works better than negative to negative poles.

Takes thousands of pounds of pressure to keep the two magnets so close together in opposition.

But the sound!

Jan, you are now thread stalking me. If you try to bring things along from other places, I will do the same.

You puny animosity will get you no "51st State" CD's.

Jan Vigne
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Ditto, Rushbo!

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Re: CD DeMagnetizing


Quote:
Ditto, Rushbo!

Ah, so you agree you are thread stalking. That's a good Jan.

Now, let's keep it to talking about magnetism/demagnetism.

I had a friend who bought an MRI machine and we tried MRI'ing some CD's....nada, but we had some fun.

KBK
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Re: CD DeMagnetizing

Induction, Induction, Induction. I said nothing about demagnetizing. I used a demagnetizer to produce the effects of induction upon the aluminum layer. No more, no less.

I have no less than 4 different induction heaters (at the factory) which will literally set the CD on fire, if I crank their level and leave the CD there. Seriously.

As for Ethan, I've no comment other than to note his 'contribution' to the situation.

I guess, as Robert said in the opening to this month's issue, that he simply is incapable to that level of fine discernment. Thank god he doesn't have anything to do with science, as it would look like the fucking Inquisition all over again. The bloody Pope to my Bruno. Jeebus. Me'n Hobbes. We do lotsa runnin'.

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