If you can swing the extra $200 go for the Outlaw. If someday you decide to upgrade your speakers you'll be glad you did.

I have a friend who has the RR2150, and for fun we demoed it in my system. I was impressed. I've never heard any Yamaha gear that sounded real great.

John Marks peviously really liked the Harman Kardon receivers. He is busy and has probably not auditioned their latest versions, but they are a good buy at www.jr.com . I think one is 80 watts/ch and the other over 100. They did come with a built in phono stage. Check it out if you have interest.

To save money www.accessories4less.com usually has some refurbished Marantz and Onkyo receivers at great prices.

Harman Kardon HK3490 $320
Magnepan MMG $600/pair
Misc. cables and such $80

That would work for me.

Quote:
John Marks previously really liked the Harman Kardon receivers.

To me one of the puzzles is, is kit like a HK stereo receiver entry level hi-fi, or never, ever gonna be more than mid-fi?

Of course there's a "what do you mean by hi-fi/mid-fi" issue here, but if you can get past that by saying "hi fi is the sound that's within striking distance of accurate and which may or may not have a bunch of other qualities" while mid-fi is "may or may not sound pleasing but isn't really accurate" you have a problem with the Onkyos, HKs, Denons of the world, not to mention all the big box Yamaha/Sony/Pioneer faves.

Where do you draw the line? If you pair, say, a Best Buy stereo receiver with a pair of PSBs are you in the hi fi world or not? How about what I did for a few weeks - a tube pre-amp, a class t amp and a pair of $25 speakers?

s.

edit - Let me acknowledge and apologize for this: I know it's nothing more than a special case (where is the low end line) of debates that have raged here and elsewhere for, well, forever. However, the low end is a powerful obsession to me and I like to think out loud about it.

Quote:
From what I have read, this setup seems to "require" a subwoofer. Do you have personal experience with these speakers?

Like I said, I plan to add a subwoofer down the line regardless, however, I will go give them a listen to see how necessary it really is.

-Eric

From what was originally stated, all the loudspeakers considered would likely be augmented by a subwoofer at some point. The Magnepan MMG is not bass shy and reproduces convincing music in most genres. With my usual test CD, Sade Love is Stronger Than Pride, when I first auditioned the MMG I was surprised that on Paradise (Track 2) the bass still evoked the same visceral response even though I knew it had not the same depth as on my stacked, double New Large Advent setup. The quality of the bass from the MMG is tight, precise and convincing. Sure, I subsequently reinforced the next lower octave with a subwoofer. But so could anyone with typical bookshelf/monitor speakers.

If you get a subwoofer for the MMGs I'd look for a sealed design and a crossover that goes down to as close to 50 Hz as possible. The Emotiva Ultra Sub 10 is a good choice and only costs $270 right now on sale.

My system currently is:
Emotiva ERC-1 CD player
Emotiva USP-1 preamp
Emotiva UPA-1 monoblock amplifier X 2
Magnepan MMG planar/quasi-ribbon loudspeakers pair, saving up for Magnestands
Acoustic Research S112PS subwoofer, soon to be replaced with a Rythmik Audio F12G or Epik Legend

Quote:

Quote:
John Marks previously really liked the Harman Kardon receivers.

To me one of the puzzles is, is kit like a HK stereo receiver entry level hi-fi, or never, ever gonna be more than mid-fi?

Of course there's a "what do you mean by hi-fi/mid-fi" issue here, but if you can get past that by saying "hi fi is the sound that's within striking distance of accurate and which may or may not have a bunch of other qualities" while mid-fi is "may or may not sound pleasing but isn't really accurate" you have a problem with the Onkyos, HKs, Denons of the world, not to mention all the big box Yamaha/Sony/Pioneer faves.

Where do you draw the line? If you pair, say, a Best Buy stereo receiver with a pair of PSBs are you in the hi fi world or not? How about what I did for a few weeks - a tube pre-amp, a class t amp and a pair of $25 speakers?

s.

edit - Let me acknowledge and apologize for this: I know it's nothing more than a special case (where is the low end line) of debates that have raged here and elsewhere for, well, forever. However, the low end is a powerful obsession to me and I like to think out loud about it.

*********************************
The point of it all is to start enjoying audio within the confines of a budget. If everyone waited until the dollars rolled in to buy Stereophile "B" gear they would be many a night spent in silence...pointless.

What ever he buys, it will make a great 2nd system for another room in house one day he wants to make the step up. Then he can decide just how much money he really wants to pour into this hobby. Many of us enjoy music on systems that are less than the price of Mr. Fremer's phono stage.

The best advise I could give anyone is stop worrying about what you do not own or what you are not hearing. Enjoy what you have and I hope you easily find music that you really love and do not have to wade through hours of wasted listening to get to the music that you truly love.

I think that HK receiver will do just fine and may just be one of the "Miles Per Gallon" audio champs around. Perfect...NO. Very servicable...yes. Even I think that that HK reciever mated to a pair of Rega RS-1s and a Rega P1 turntable could be alot of fun. Run your computer as your CD player through it and have a party. See what your friends think.

I would bet that it would sound better than my first system of a Fisher 500 TX, Dynaco A-25s, and a Dual 1209 with a Pickering XV-750. I will never forget how that system helped me connect with music that mattered to me. It was the beginning. We all start somewhere.

Good point, Jim

Quote:
The point of it all is to start enjoying audio within the confines of a budget. If everyone waited until the dollars rolled in to buy Stereophile "B" gear they would be many a night spent in silence...pointless.

In the real world, you are - of course - right.

The question I'm chewing on here is pointless to most folks, even people who care about fine sound.

As much as anything, I guess I'm mulling whether there are two separate low ends - one that isn't audiophile, but can sound ok, and one that starts by trying to come as close to accurate as possible, given the money being spent.

I don't know why the question is important to me, but it is.

s.

Wow! Actually, I've had the same thoughts! I think it is in fact true IMHO.

Quote:

The best advise I could give anyone is stop worrying... Enjoy what you have...

Words of wisdom from a wise man.

I think, IMHO, it would almost be impossible for someone to assemble a terrible, awful sounding stereo system today even it he only went to a "big box" audio-video store. Many of them carry some decent brands and I have helped friends put together decent sounding systems for $500 that are way more enjoyable than awful.

A $39 DVD player into a $119 Sony stereo receiver into a pair of $200 bookshelf speakers sounds may better than anything my father heard as I played records for him on our old flip-top RCA mono record changer. The mahogany cabinet was very nice...the sound low fi for sure, but man, did we love it. I will bet that record player was $150 in 1953.

Now is a great time to be an audiophile, but I have to laugh as we have come so far and know how much I enjoy reading AD "wax" about his new mono pick-up heads the cost way more alone than two of my stereo rigs in other rooms. Those 2 systems are better than my dad's, and if he could have heard what AD is hearing (probably right now as I write this) he could never believe what is actually hidden in those mono 78rpm grooves.

Audiophiles know life is short and we do not want to leave anything "on the table" by not owning the best gear we can while we can. That is not OCD, just a keen appreciation of the art of music.

Now, if the Library of Congress had the same system that Mr. Fremer has (this would be the most proper use of bail-out-money that has happened to date) so that when we visited Washington on our "educational vacation" (that is what audiophiiles tell their famlies) we could even spend 10 minutes hearing what he does on a daily basis, that would be sweet. Only an audiophile would make such a journey.

My parents had a more than decent setup when I was a teenager, a B&O receiver, TT and speakers. At some point a Philips reel-to-reel tape recorder made it's way onto their shelves, and all of it sounded great!

Now, as they have grown older and my dad uses hearing aids, their system sucks, with a 2kg Sony receiver and itsy-bitsy Bose speakers. I have loaned them my Marantz cd-player, and a good IC to hook it up, so they can at least get a little joy from it. My dad and I always tease each other - I call his setup a "cardboard setup" and he asks me if I want to borrow his setup, so I can listen to music, lol

"intended listening position".

I know I am old, but this is the bedroom. There is a very bad joke in here, but I am going to leave it to YOUR imagination.

Quiznos; HMMMM> HMMMM> HMM HMM HMM Toasty!

When significantly above the height of the speakers there would certainly be a roll off in the high frequencies.

I have my MMGs placed in a 11'6"x15'9" room ala Cardas http://www.cardas.com/pdf/roomsetup.pdf and while there are variations in sound depending on where you are in the room these speakers tend to fill the room pretty well with music, even when standing behind the speakers.