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returnstackerror
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USB cables carry data AND power
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 Therefore the claim that "That usb cable added so much noise and treble clammer that it infected my soundstage with a high pitch wale that reminded me of an old dot matrix printer pounding out copies." is either completely false, which I doubt, or just proof that the original usb cable was somehow faulty and not functioning properly.

Please understand that I am not looking to pick a fight but rather just looking for a little clarification. Anyway thanks in advance for helping to clear things up!

 

USB cables carry data AND power.   That is why Hard drives can be self powered by leveraging the power available on the USB port

Werd stated that he used a generic cable that came with his printer.

Printers are not self powered...so the noise he got could have been due to the generic printer cable not being designed to support self powered drives OR not wired/sheilded/terminated correctly for any other application aside from the printer in question

Rememeber manufacturers will cut as many corners as possible so if they can save 2cents per cable by making it support just their specific application, they will.

Hence my comment that before leaping onto a high priced "hi end" USB cable, check out a well made Belkin cable specifically designed for hard drives.

 

Its the same idea that you dont use a 10amp power cable on a 30amp curcuit. Sure the 10amp cable might work some of the time but it wont support the required peaks when they hit.

 

Peter

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Thanks

Thank you Peter for that very clear and concise answer. Judging by your responses I'm inclined to believe that you feel much the same way as I do regarding cables carrying a strictly digital signal, i.e. that any well made, properly functioning and fully up to spec cable will do the job and there is no need for any expensive cables made by boutique cable manufacturers.

werd
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Noisy USB

Hello Jazzfan

I think Returnstackerror nailed it with the construction. Obviousily the data is intact. The music is there buts its noisy. The gear now is really sensitive to stuff like this. Anything you do in front of a big power will be get amplified,so if there is noise leaking off the usb cable and its sits close to your amps, its going to get amplified. I wish that weren't true but it just is. It probably didn't help that i had the Omega plugged into the same conditioner as my BDP, dac and preamp. It still requires some setup theory i guess with external HD's. I only use usb sticks as a file delivery medium because of this. 

jazzfan
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True streaming
werd wrote:

Hello Jazzfan

I think Returnstackerror nailed it with the construction. Obviousily the data is intact. The music is there buts its noisy. The gear now is really sensitive to stuff like this. Anything you do in front of a big power will be get amplified,so if there is noise leaking off the usb cable and its sits close to your amps, its going to get amplified. I wish that weren't true but it just is. It probably didn't help that i had the Omega plugged into the same conditioner as my BDP, dac and preamp. It still requires some setup theory i guess with external HD's. I only use usb sticks as a file delivery medium because of this. 

All of your above comments only make me even more certain that a true streaming solution is the way to go with respect to a computer based audio system. By true streaming I mean one with as many degrees of separation as possible between all those nasty (and often cheap) computer pieces, such as cpus, hard drives, usb cables, etc., and one's audio system. I use various Logitech Squeezebox devices, either wired or wireless, and thus have lots of separation between my audio gear and the computer. In the case of my main audio system I use a Squeezebox Transporter connected wirelessly so the only usb cable involved is the one connecting the external hard drive to the music server computer and that computer is located in a different part of the house from my main stereo system. Never heard nor hear any nasty noises being amplified, just nice and pure music.

werd
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Thats how i felt too
jazzfan wrote:
werd wrote:

Hello Jazzfan

I think Returnstackerror nailed it with the construction. Obviousily the data is intact. The music is there buts its noisy. The gear now is really sensitive to stuff like this. Anything you do in front of a big power will be get amplified,so if there is noise leaking off the usb cable and its sits close to your amps, its going to get amplified. I wish that weren't true but it just is. It probably didn't help that i had the Omega plugged into the same conditioner as my BDP, dac and preamp. It still requires some setup theory i guess with external HD's. I only use usb sticks as a file delivery medium because of this. 

All of your above comments only make me even more certain that a true streaming solution is the way to go with respect to a computer based audio system. By true streaming I mean one with as many degrees of separation as possible between all those nasty (and often cheap) computer pieces, such as cpus, hard drives, usb cables, etc., and one's audio system. I use various Logitech Squeezebox devices, either wired or wireless, and thus have lots of separation between my audio gear and the computer. In the case of my main audio system I use a Squeezebox Transporter connected wirelessly so the only usb cable involved is the one connecting the external hard drive to the music server computer and that computer is located in a different part of the house from my main stereo system. Never heard nor hear any nasty noises being amplified, just nice and pure music.

Thats how i felt before i got one home on loan. I mentioned that its more of an extension of the dac than a comp peripheral. It plays hi rez files and redbook. There is no computer involved other than sending control data over ethernet. I bought 50 feet of ethernet cable for under 10 bucks. For myself it solved a bunch of issues in setting up a  quiet file playback system. I doubt very much you can build a better sounding delivery system with your comp than this bdp.... Its expensive but oh well. 

jazzfan
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Follow up
werd wrote:

Thats how i felt before i got one home on loan. I mentioned that its more of an extension of the dac than a comp peripheral. It plays hi rez files and redbook. There is no computer involved other than sending control data over ethernet. I bought 50 feet of ethernet cable for under 10 bucks. For myself it solved a bunch of issues in setting up a  quiet file playback system. I doubt very much you can build a better sounding delivery system with your comp than this bdp.... Its expensive but oh well. 

I'm glad that you're happy with the BDP-1 but I don't think that it is my cup of tea. Perhaps you should be doing the follow up review:)

JIMV
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Need one

Agree... a folow up is needed addressing the issues on this thread.

returnstackerror
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isolation, isolation and isolation

I have spent a lot of money AND time (via cable dressing and component location changes) reducing system bourne noise (esp 60hz hum) to a minimum so I am in the same camp as jazzfan (and it appears Werd before he got a chance to demo the BDP-1).

It's drilled into us that the best sound is based on three principals: isolation, isolation and isolation (mechanical and electrical)

The designers of components (especially those that contain both digital and analogue sections) go to great lengths to provide separate power supplies for each, different grounds, shielding between both etc.

Many analogue pre-amps (including Bryston’s own BP-26) have two cabinets, so that the power supply section is completely separate from the signal processing. There also seems to be a trend for power amps to follow this same separation.

And we are encouraged to try and plug digital and analogue components into separate power distribution boxes or use those that have separate isolated outlets for each.

And then we are told, after all this, that’s its fine to plug some consumer based hard disk drive close/next to/on top off our components....products that have no design mandate for use in hi end audio.

Obviously a USB stick is the way to go (if the hassle isn’t too much) and at some point solid state drives (when they are cheap enough) will make the noise from traditional drives a distant memory but as I am not in a location where I can test drive a BDP-1, I cant determine for myself if USB disk drive noise (both electrical and mechanical) would be an issue for me.

 

Peter

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Re: 4Fs files: another source

Hi John,

John Atkinson wrote:

...So far, only Linn, HDTracks, Reference Recordings, and 2L are offering 4Fs files, ie, recorded at 176.4kHz or 192kHz....

Actually, Soundkeeper Recordings has offered 24/192 files-on-disc (in both .aif and .wav formats) since our release of "Equinox" last September.  In fact, Larry mentions listening to the 4x version in the BDP-1 review.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
 

John Atkinson
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4Fs files: another source

My bad, Barry.

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

Poor Audiophile
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BDP-1

So, if I understand right,  with this I could plug in a Flash drive with High- Rez files on them press play & away I go?

Sweet!! Now if someone could come out with a less expensive machine I'd be all set!!!

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They have!
Poor Audiophile wrote:

So, if I understand right,  with this I could plug in a Flash drive with High- Rez files on them press play & away I go?

Sweet!! Now if someone could come out with a less expensive machine I'd be all set!!!

As mentioned earlier the Squeezebox Touch ($300 list price) will play high resolution files of up to 24bit/88.2 and 24bit/96kHz from a USB flash drive just like the BDP-1. The Touch, unlike the BDP-1 which requires an external DAC, the Touch can be used with or without an external DAC.

Poor Audiophile
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Squeezebox
jazzfan wrote:
Poor Audiophile wrote:

So, if I understand right,  with this I could plug in a Flash drive with High- Rez files on them press play & away I go?

Sweet!! Now if someone could come out with a less expensive machine I'd be all set!!!

As mentioned earlier the Squeezebox Touch ($300 list price) will play high resolution files of up to 24bit/88.2 and 24bit/96kHz from a USB flash drive just like the BDP-1. The Touch, unlike the BDP-1 which requires an external DAC, the Touch can be used with or without an external DAC.

If it can really be used without a computer I'd be all set! Thanks! 

Oh, BTW, if using a digital product like this but without a computer makes me a Ludditte, guess I am!!

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Ludditte
Poor Audiophile wrote:

If it can really be used without a computer I'd be all set! Thanks! 

Oh, BTW, if using a digital product like this but without a computer makes me a Ludditte, guess I am!!

Dear Mr. Ludditte,

Yes the Logitech Squeezebox Touch can be used without a computer - just a USB external hard drive or a USB flash drive or even an SD card are all that is required. However the device is really meant to be used in a network since it is also capable of playing internet radio streams, again either with or without a computer - just a network connection is required.

Just to be clear here is a list of what the Touch can do in various configurations:

1) No computer or network - plays music stored on USB hard and flash drives. Also plays music stored on an SD card. Does not play internet radio streams.

2) No computer but with network internet connection - plays internet radio streams and USB/SD sourced music (same as #1 above)

3) Computer but without network internet connection - plays music stored on computer plus USB/SD sourced music (same as #1 above). Does not play internet radio streams.

4) Computer with network internet connection - plays internet radio streams and USB/SD sourced music (same as #1 above) plus music stored on computer.

Pretty good for $300:) Just bear in mind that Logitech is not a recognized "high end manufacturer" and should you chose to use this device in your system you therefore be will subject to much audiophile scorn when claiming that this device sounds great. Apparently a Touch should only used for background music and NEVER for serious audiophile listening. You have been warned.

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Squeezebox Touch: Want One

Oh man- I forgot about the Squeezebox Touch and didn't realize how cheap it was. That thing would be so ideal for me, as I already have a NAS on my home network with all my lossless iTunes files on it. I would love being able to drop it into my reference system and still have good sound plus album art and all the rest. It may be too late for Father's Day, but this will be on my list for the near future. Thanks for the reminder. 

The deal breaker, aside from price, for many other products is interface. I want to be able to have something I can see, other than text listings. I stopped using DOS about 18 years ago and I'm not going back for anyone.

Amazon sells it for only $281 btw. A few audiophile reviews on there are very favorable, even comparing it to much more expensive DAC combos. For me, it almost always going to be LPs on my big system, but if I want digital,a s long as it's CD quality similar to my Rega Apollo I'm good to go.

Poor Audiophile
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Touch

Jazzfan,

All messing around aside, thanks for taking the time to put up that list!

I always learn something here!! And who knows... I'm not afraid of computers, it's that most setups sound like a hassle for me who is fairly competent(can't spell though) using a computer, but not a true computer geek! The touch seems the way to go. Again, thanks!!

P.S. thanks for the warning too!!

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You're welcome
Poor Audiophile wrote:

Jazzfan,

All messing around aside, thanks for taking the time to put up that list!

I always learn something here!! And who knows... I'm not afraid of computers, it's that most setups sound like a hassle for me who is fairly competent(can't spell though) using a computer, but not a true computer geek! The touch seems the way to go. Again, thanks!!

P.S. thanks for the warning too!!

You are most welcome! I'm glad I was helpful.

To be fair upon the release of the Touch Stereophile did give it a nice positive review so I was somewhat puzzled by the fact that there was comparison with nor even mention of the Touch in the BDP-1 review. JA's statement "So far, only Linn, HDTracks, Reference Recordings, and 2L are offering 4Fs files, ie, recorded at 176.4kHz or 192kHz. But these are early days. The point is that in this respect the Bryston BDP-1 is future-proof, the SB Touch isn't." while true seems pretty feeble.

Sure there are several differences between the Touch and the BDP-1 (the BDP-1 is listed first)

1) Price - $2,000 versus $300

2) Display - text only versus color touch screen

3) DAC - no DAC versus internal DAC

4) Highest resolution available - 24bit/192kHz versus 24bit/96kHz

5) Support for Internet streaming - none versus full

6) Proper high end pedigree - yes versus no

7) Requisite machined aluminum face plate - yes versus no (and we audiophiles know how much that aircraft quality aluminum inproves the sound).

To list just the major differences. I may be crazy but as a stop gap solution and as a way to ease into the world of computer based digital audio $300 seems like a more reasonable entry point even if it isn't future proof. And the future proof statement assumes that 24bit/192kHz recordings will become more widely available going forward just like those other high resolution formats, the now dead DVD-Audio and the still alive but in intense care SACD. You decide.

Poor Audiophile
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Exactly!

Interesting that you brought up 2 points I was thinking about just today.

1) Resolution- The SB is "only" 96/24, but can an "average" audiophile like myself hear a difference between 24/96 & the higher ones? I'm an audiophile in that the sound quality of my music is important to me, but I don't consider myslef a "golden ear" or anything like that. I have read that most everyone can hear differences between 16/44 & 24/96. Perhaps 24/96 is (dare I say it?) good enough for me?

2) High Res discs- I have been seriously thinking about a universal player such as the Marantz UD- 5005. But, to be honest I don't really care about the Video end of things.

Blu-Ray music only discs could be cool too. I also need a new CD player, so a universal player would do all that. Also, SACD/CD players seem expensive for me.

But, now I'm thinking maybe a Marantz CD-5004 & an SB?! Mmmmmm.

Also, since the SB has an onboard DAC, would I connect directly into an integrated Amp? Thanks!

jazzfan
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Another approach
Poor Audiophile wrote:

Interesting that you brought up 2 points I was thinking about just today.

1) Resolution- The SB is "only" 96/24, but can an "average" audiophile like myself hear a difference between 24/96 & the higher ones? I'm an audiophile in that the sound quality of my music is important to me, but I don't consider myslef a "golden ear" or anything like that. I have read that most everyone can hear differences between 16/44 & 24/96. Perhaps 24/96 is (dare I say it?) good enough for me?

2) High Res discs- I have been seriously thinking about a universal player such as the Marantz UD- 5005. But, to be honest I don't really care about the Video end of things.

Blu-Ray music only discs could be cool too. I also need a new CD player, so a universal player would do all that. Also, SACD/CD players seem expensive for me.

But, now I'm thinking maybe a Marantz CD-5004 & an SB?! Mmmmmm.

Also, since the SB has an onboard DAC, would I connect directly into an integrated Amp? Thanks!

Regarding ultra-high resolution recordings, i.e. 24bit/176.4kHz and 24bit/192kHz, for me the question is less about whether these recordings sound better than standard high resolution recordings, i.e. 24bit/88.2kHz and 24bit/96kHz, and more about their availability and cost. Right now there are very few of ultra-hi-rez recordings available and they cost a small fortune.

As for getting a new CD or universal disc player I would strongly recommend that you get one with digital inputs which allow the player to be used as an external DAC. Having such functionality means that you could then get a device like the Squeezebox Touch and use either it's own built-in DAC or DAC in the disc player, which one sounds better.

And finally, yes you can connect the analog outputs of the Touch directly to an integrated amp.

Poor Audiophile
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Thanks!

All good points to ponder! Thanks, Jazzfan!

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John with all the respect,

John with all the respect, returnstackerror is RIGHT.

I and some of my friends are using simmilar setup:

i have an iMac computer  in my basement office, attached Drobo storage with 1.5 TB of music. In the living room main level i have squeezebox as a streamming device, connected to Bryston BDA-1 which connects to McIntosh MA6600 that drives totem Hawks. I have separate HT in the basement (anthem processor, arcam power amp, totem speakers), anthem receiver in the living room that powers backyard speakers, small bose system in the bedroom. Bedroom and arcam for backyard are going of apple airport express's, main stereo in living, and basement HT - squeezebox. All CAT6 cable (no wifi) using once centralized library on Drobo in the basement

You see returnstackerror's point now???

if BDP was supporting streamming i would get it in a minute to pair it up with BDA-1!

Why would i want to bring another usb HD (cost is no issue - 2TB $120) so i can duplicate my liblary?

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BDP-1

I received my BDP-1 last Friday.  It is replacing my iPod Classic and Wadia 171 iTransport.  I have to admit I loved the iPod/Wadia since it sounded so good.  However, it was limited to the iPod's max hard drive size, and could only play CD quality files, and I want to start buying high-res files from HD Tracks, and others.

 

Anyway, I too wondered at the purpose of the BDP-1, but after rereading the stereophile review, and the absolute sound review I decided to buy it.  I purchased a 500GB drive, and copied my Apple Lossless files to it under three top level directories; classical, rock, and jazz.  Using a free app, mpod, on my iPad3 I can, for example, select the classical directory and play all songs under it in random shuffle.  Of course, you can create play lists, etc.

 

Anyway, this thing sounds great.  It is bringing out details in the files that were unheard with the iPod/Wadia.  I am using the Bryston BDA1 DAC with a Shunyata Python Ztron digital cable.  With the Wadia I was using an MIT Magnum digital cable.  Like it or not, but cables of all types matter.

 

Anyway, at work I  write software to test network software and hardware.  Now I am moving into the testing of storage network software and hardware.  Mainly, I develop on Linux, but use Windows for some testing.  The point is when I am home I do not want to mess with computers to hear music. With the Bryston I press the play button, and that is it.  For me this thing looks good in my rack, and it sounds absolutely awesome.

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