David Harper wrote:

I've been comparing sound quality of 16/44.100 Wav files from an ipod connected to my home system (Denon AVR X 1100W receiver)first with a USB connection to the receiver and then over bluetooth. The bluetooth sounds awful. The wired connection sounds real good. With bluetooth the highs sound like gritty hash,the bass is lacking, and there's a loss in volumn. Why is this?

Bluetooth implementations depend on the specifics of the hardware and software used, which are often only adequate for speech, not music. In your case, the bandwidth undoubtedly sucks.

David Harper wrote:

I've been comparing sound quality of 16/44.100 Wav files from an ipod connected to my home system (Denon AVR X 1100W receiver)first with a USB connection to the receiver and then over bluetooth. The bluetooth sounds awful. The wired connection sounds real good. With bluetooth the highs sound like gritty hash,the bass is lacking, and there's a loss in volumn. Why is this?

With respect to SQ, Bluetooth is a waste of time (and money since its licensing is built-in to the cost).

Recall that Bluetooth was originally designed to connect phone headsets and speakerphones -- not for audio entertainment. It was also designed with very narrow bandwidth and applies data compression to an audio signal. While not applicable to your WAV use case, keep in mind that for most it's applying its compression on top of data compression that might already be there, as is the case with MP3 or AAC files.

Given that your particular Denon is DLNA-certified -- and even supports DSD -- you should take a look at getting your bits to it via DLNA.

David Harper wrote:

would that be better than the USB wire? Does the wire compress the audio? I thought USB was lossless.

Here are your next experimental use cases:
- DAP connected to Denon via USB (which you've already done)
- Music streamed from your DLNA-compliant computer/NAS, over Ethernet
- Music streamed from your DLNA-compliant computer/NAS, over WiFi

All of the above methods are supposed to get the bits directly to the Denon's built-in DAC. USB is generally believed to have less jitter than Ethernet. (Plenty of position papers and arguments online about mediums and associated jitter.)

The whole point of having USB for audio is to bypass your DAP's built-in DAC and send the bits directly to the Denon's DAC. Think about it: why do you think your music sounds better through the Denon, vice the car? Which DAC do you think would sound better: your whyPod's, your car's, or your Denon's?

Have you ever meandered over to sister site Audiostream.com? I think you can find a LOT of answers to your digital questions over there. (I think you'd love it -- it's generally pro-AAPL over there!)

David Harper wrote:

I've been comparing sound quality of 16/44.100 Wav files from an ipod connected to my home system (Denon AVR X 1100W receiver)first with a USB connection to the receiver and then over bluetooth. The bluetooth sounds awful. The wired connection sounds real good. With bluetooth the highs sound like gritty hash,the bass is lacking, and there's a loss in volumn. Why is this?

WAV stands for Windows Audio File, and the IPOD does not work with it very well, as you seem to have discovered.

You will be much better off using 320K MP3 files, which will work well on almost any device, have good audio quality, and can be readily burned to blank CDs or almost any media that is convenient. they also use a lot less memory space than many other file formats. Do not use less than 320K, however; lower-res MP3 files are noticeably inferior.

Bluetooth is an interesting format. I have found that the Bluetooth in my car is great but have consistently used AirPlay in the house as all of my devices (Denon receiver, Marantz receiver & Marantz Reference Network Player) are AirPlay equipped.

In general, I hear no difference between USB and Bluetooth in the car but there is so much other noise in the car, it is very difficult to identify any deviations.

Inside the house, I have tested Airplay vs USB vs Ethernet/Wifi. I know on a spec basis, in order the quality of sound goes USB, Ethernet, WiFi, then Airplay. In practice, I can't hear a difference between a CD connected to my DAC via a Digital Coax cable and any of the other formats streaming an ALAC file.

I know that technically a well designed USB connection is superior to Ethernet and Wifi. In practice, I am not sure if the human ear can actually discern the amount of jitter introduced in the inferior data transfer method. I know lots of people say they can and maybe with high-res files you can, but at Redbook standard, I can't hear the difference.

David Harper wrote:

since I listened to bluetooth on my home system I'm not using it at all anymore. I use USB both in the car and in the house.
now I'm thinking of converting all the 16/44.1 WAV files to ALAC. Then I can get all the music I need onto the pod.
correct me if I'm wrong but If I bought a high-res DAP my car stereo would downsample it to CD quality, right?

If you wanted to ensure the DAC from a high-res DAP was outputting, you'd need to connect the analog i/o -puts: 3.5mm out from DAP to 3.5mm in on your car's system. If no 3.5, then check to see if you car support good ol' red/white RCA. If neither, tough cookies. (NOTE: a high-res DAP is unlikely to make an audible diff in the SQ of a factory audio system.)

(On an unrelated-to-Bluetooth comment, you should be able to use foobar2000 to convert from WAV to a lossless compression format.)

So if you rip a file from a CD it is 16/44.1 because that is the CDs resolution. If you conver a Cd to a higher resolution it can still only be 16/44.1 unless it is "upscaled" but then the device would be adding data to attain the higher resolution. Unless your source material is higher res a DAP will make no difference.

True hi-res files are created from the masters. one of the big sling points of Pono and the Pono store was the Neil Young was using his relationships to get access to original masters to make excellent hi-res files. In practice, this has proven more difficult than he expected. All you have to do is go out and look at the # of hi-res files available which is a lot smaller than you would expect.

This bring us to the point about even DVDs and blu-rays sounding like crap, even in a lossless audio formal like Dolby True HD. Some recordings just aren't very good. A high res edition of a crappy recording usually sounds worse to me than a low res. I love Black Sabbath but the reunion disc they released in 1998 or 1999 is just a terrible sounding recording. improved resolution would just provide better clarity for a crappy recording.

David Harper wrote:

think I'm out of luck on the analog inputs in the car. It doesn't seem to have them at all. But like you said hi-res wouldn't accomplish anything on a car stereo anyway. Even on my home system I've played hi-res discs;audiobluray,sacd and audio DVD and I can't say they sound better than a good CD. Maybe on a 20,000 dollar system with electrostatic speakers you could hear a difference, or with the best headphones. But I have neither of those. I have an audio blu-ray of Neil Young's "Psychedelic Pill" and the sound quality of it is actually real crappy. I'm pretty sure the reason is the way it was recorded, with the electric guitars harsh and loud and sounding like an electric buzz instead of a guitar.And the disc has virtually zero dynamic range. I have a music DVD "GO-the best of Moby" which,according to the info on my AVR is 20bit/48000khz, but again the SQ is mediocre at best. Too bad because this disc has some of the best songs I ever heard.I have Supertramps "Crime of the Century" on pure audio bluray and vinyl, and I think I like the vinyl a little better.
The best sounding things I own are on vinyl;Eric Clapton "Unplugged", Beck "Morning Phase",and Daft Punk"Random Access Memories".

Which player do you use for your digital disc media? How is it connected to your AVR? HDMI? Toslink/coax? Analog?

David Harper wrote:

my disc player is a Marantz UD 7007.It's connected to my AVR(Denon AVR X 1100 W) via both HDMI and analog RCA stereo phono aux outputs. They both sound the same to me.

In piecing together some of your posts, we have the following given:
- Denon AVR X 1100W receiver (DLNA-capable)
- Marantz UD 7007 (DLNA-capable)
- 2016 Honda with factory sound system (with USB)

If I had the same specifics above, I would use Exact Audio Copy to rip once and generate two compressed versions of the music file: one in FLAC, and one in AAC format - both at their highest respective bit-depth and frequency, but not above the source. (In other words, if all you have are 16/44.1 CD's, no need to up-rez.)

FLAC would be for the home media library, and AAC for a USB thumb drive to be used in the car. (Side note: AAC was introduced by Sony, et al., yet somehow popularized by Apple. Go figure.) A 32GB thumb drive is twice the capacity of a current-gen Nano and costs less than $10. If it gets lost -- so what... I'd just get another one and copy the files again off my NAS/computer.

At the core of my home media library, would be (and in actuality, is) a DLNA-compliant NAS or "server." (I say "server" because am referring to DLNA server software - not necessarily a dedicated box/VM. FWIW, Universal Media Server is my preferred choice.) This way, I could stream my entire media library bits directly to either the Denon's or Marantz's built-n DAC - whichever one sounds better to me.

Yes, I realize this is vastly different than your entire-library-in-WAV-on-a-Nano-toting method, which also includes Bluetooth, but IMHO, my suggested approach maximizes SQ, capacity, and value for the givens.

For the record, am simply offering an alternative approach that I personally *KNOW* works well.

Happy listening!

David Harper wrote:

my disc player is a Marantz UD 7007.It's connected to my AVR(Denon AVR X 1100 W) via both HDMI and analog RCA stereo phono aux outputs. They both sound the same to me.

That UD7007 has some decent innards (even a 32-bit DAC)... You may want to try feeding the Marantz the bits instead of the Denon. Download some FLAC samples (http://www.hdtracks.com/hdtracks-2015-sampler) to a thumb drive and connect the drive to the 7007's USB port. If you like the sound, then you can look in to setting up a DLNA server solution.

Here are some free DSD's to try as well (just not from a thumb drive, of course):
https://members.nativedsd.com/albums/just-listen-1-compilation

David Harper wrote:

I'll be damned. I never even noticed the USB port on the front of my disc player. I'm gonna try what you're saying.Does Exact Audio Copy work like Itunes? Would ALAC work instead of FLAC? The highest res I've seen for AAC is 320kbs. I assume that would be good enough for the car? As far as ALAC, I haven't had any experience with that yet. I'm guessing I can rip to ALAC in 16/44.1? I hate computers. I just accidently erased my entire post. Where can I get a thumb drive, Best Buy? I don't get it,why would anybody buy an ipod with 16gig if they could get a thumb drive with 32gig for a fraction of the cost? Is there something the ipod can do that the thumb drive can't? Type a search for images of 2016 Honda Civic coupe. I think you'll like it.Most of the ones on the road are 4 doors. Very few 2 doors out there.

Remember, part of the fun of being an audiophile is making conclusions about empirical evidence through discovery. This approach drives the individuals within the community in his quest for the best possible sound reproduction in his own environment(s). In other words: only YOU have YOUR equipment, in YOUR environment(s), with YOUR ears.

Since all of your questions can be better answered by searching, link-leapfrogging, and THEN (in)validating with your own trials, I won't void you of the learning opportunity... But I will point you in the right direction about EAC:

John Atkinson wrote:

"...though I prefer to use the free Exact Audio Copy program (Windows only), which allows you to optimize your PC optical-drive operating parameters to deal with error-prone CDs.

Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/music-served-extracting-music-your-pc#QxubsroZyYTl5tdu.99

It's also best to "RTFM" as they say - that way you know more about the capabilities of your equipment purchases.

Oh, and "one more thing..."

David Harper wrote:

I don't get it,why would anybody buy an ipod with 16gig if they could get a thumb drive with 32gig for a fraction of the cost?

Glad to see the light came on! You're right - why would anybody do that? Feel free to rejoin the thread I started in General Rants & Raves about Apple Fanboys.

;-)

David Harper wrote:

I have listened to the dac in the Marantz, be switching the Denon to aux input it plays the RCA analog interconnects from the Marantz.It sounds the same, to me, as the dac in the Denon. They may even have the same DAC, I don't remember. I think the DAC in the Denon is Burr Brown,or something like that. Not sure.

As I mentioned before, the Marantz has a 32-bit DAC -- so clearly, it's not the same DAC.

Next would be to ensure you are indeed connected via analog, so you're not "double-DAC'ing." A little "RTFM" will help you ensure this. ;-)

Then you can try ripping to various formats. (If they still all sound the same, you may be on the market for a new amp or AVR soon!)

David Harper wrote:

I'll be damned. I never even noticed the USB port on the front of my disc player. I'm gonna try what you're saying.Does Exact Audio Copy work like Itunes? Would ALAC work instead of FLAC? The highest res I've seen for AAC is 320kbs. I assume that would be good enough for the car? As far as ALAC, I haven't had any experience with that yet. I'm guessing I can rip to ALAC in 16/44.1? I hate computers. I just accidently erased my entire post. Where can I get a thumb drive, Best Buy? I don't get it,why would anybody buy an ipod with 16gig if they could get a thumb drive with 32gig for a fraction of the cost? Is there something the ipod can do that the thumb drive can't? Type a search for images of 2016 Honda Civic coupe. I think you'll like it.Most of the ones on the road are 4 doors. Very few 2 doors out there.

@David Harper:
Wanted to check in and see if any of your trials yielded better SQ... It sounds like you tinkered a little with USB, but have you tried streaming your library with DLNA? What about any file format trials?

David Harper wrote:

haven't done any more experimenting yet. The Usb port on the Marantz player should be an input,right?Not an output?

Correct - it is an input

(FWIW, I don't see a need to output from a commercial player via USB.)

David Harper wrote:

I've been playing the ipod on my home system via USB into the front port on the Denon and WAV files sound very good,the same as CD as far as I can tell. With about 60 songs on the pod it's like 35 years ago when I used to record songs from vinyl onto a Teac reel-to-reel tape deck and then I could put a reel of tape on and listen to music for hours without fooling with anything.

The intent behind the USB input of a component is to bypass the device's (like your ipod's) built-in DAC, in favor of the component's DAC.

(Yet another reason to use a simple USB memory stick instead of the ipod: no need to pay for a DAC that's only going to be bypassed at home and in your car.)

commsysman wrote:

WAV stands for Windows Audio File

Incorrect. "WAV" is not an acronym. (If it were, it woulda been "WAF" by your statement!)

"WAV" is the filename extension from the truncated proper name of "Waveform Audio File Format"

I think the idea behind the iPod was not to have a device that could be plugged into a home device. It was a portable audio player like a Walkman or a Discman. That is why most people bought them years ago. As a device to be plugged into a car or home audio system, easy creation of playlists would be the primary motivator. Otherwise a USB drive is a perfectly adequate substitute.

bierfeldt wrote:

I think the idea behind the iPod was not to have a device that could be plugged into a home device. It was a portable audio player like a Walkman or a Discman. That is why most people bought them years ago. As a device to be plugged into a car or home audio system, easy creation of playlists would be the primary motivator. Otherwise a USB drive is a perfectly adequate substitute.

Agreed. The primary use cases for the iPod are concentric to convenience and form factor.

David Harper wrote:

My son in law tried another device in the car, I think a thumb drive or a USB stick,and nothing shows up on the cars video display, no info,and the cars audio controls don't navigate the device. The pod on the other hand displays everything on the video screen and the steering wheel mounted audio controls navigate the pod perfectly. I think Honda may have collaborated with Apple in the development because the car also has other Apple connectivity like Apple airplay(whatever that is) and an I-phone doc and charger. So it apparently supports the ipod as a matter of design.

I suppose it does support only the ipod as a matter of design. My 2011 Explorer supports a simple 64GB thumb drive, and allows me to navigate from the car's touchscreen, yadda-yadda.

I had just assumed that a 2016 model vehicle would've done the same. Apologies for the erroneous assumption.

Best...

...should work with your AVR and disc player.