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insoc789
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biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

I think this could be one of the biggest snake oil scams ever: the $3000,oo power cord! Isn't it?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?powrcabl&1275665165&/Dream-State-Epic-Gold-Dream-in

Freako
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

One of the major ones anyway. My goodness, anyone who buys this must have too much cash on his hands! For crying out loud, it's just a power cord!

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

In my humble opinion Wet Dream State would have been a better name, but who am I to pass judgement?

Elk
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

That's a lot of recordings sitting there in a little coil.

john curl
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

In my opinion, this is marketing, not whether the cable sounds extra good.

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:
I think this could be one of the biggest snake oil scams ever: the $3000,oo power cord! Isn't it?

the Virtual Dynamics(now defunct) Judge power cable was around 50 Grand.

so no..not the biggest scam,not by a long shot..

ncdrawl
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

and if a product needs a "boutique" power cable to sound best, the product itself, is for lack of a better term...fucked. Crap. Badly designed.

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
I think this could be one of the biggest snake oil scams ever: the $3000,oo power cord! Isn't it?

the Virtual Dynamics(now defunct) Judge power cable was around 50 Grand.

so no..not the biggest scam,not by a long shot..

Someone got a hell of a deal.

Virtual Dynamics Judge Power Cord Audiogon auction

Buddha
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
I think this could be one of the biggest snake oil scams ever: the $3000,oo power cord! Isn't it?

the Virtual Dynamics(now defunct) Judge power cable was around 50 Grand.

so no..not the biggest scam,not by a long shot..

Someone got a hell of a deal.

Virtual Dynamics Judge Power Cord Audiogon auction

Hell, yeah!

That guy made about 185 extra dollars!

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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I have previously used 4 Genesis power cables which were daisy chained with PS Audio Quintet and PS Audio Premier Power Plant (retail worth ~$65 000). The single Judge power cable clearly beats them all. The Genesis is thin and veiled in comparison.

That Patrick82 sure is a little scamp.

Buddha
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
I have previously used 4 Genesis power cables which were daisy chained with PS Audio Quintet and PS Audio Premier Power Plant (retail worth ~$65 000). The single Judge power cable clearly beats them all. The Genesis is thin and veiled in comparison.

That Patrick82 sure is a little scamp.

He certainly is!

From his auction...

"At one point I decided I will not sell the Judge for less than $100 000. But then I acquired a girlfriend and one thing led to another and suddendly 11 babies were born..."

"Since Virtual Dynamics is bankrupt and my Judge is the only one in existence, it's only natural that the value of this cable will increase over time. Soon this cable will be worth $200 000 on the used market. I have decided I will sell this cable now and put the money into the stock market instead. Then I will expand the living space of the rabbits as well as my own Exeres company."

I hope he didn't spend it all in one place!

rvance
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

The court's in session...the court's in session...now here come da judge...here come da judge!

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

My system is run with a hodgepodge of cheap cheap cables. I cannot see buying a cable for $$$ or even $$ when I still want better speakers. But that is just me.

Still, has anyone heard this $3000 cable?

It seems like a rip off to me, but I have to suspend judgment until I actually, you know, hear it.

Trey - who is funny that way

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

It DOES seem crazy for sure. On the other hand, I tried a $150 Audioquest cord on my (previous) Creek integrated amp and I did a double take before I even got back to my chair! I went and switched it back and sure enough- it was real. To me- better/tighter bass, clearer mids, and overall less grain. I'm not one to be sucked in by spending for the sake of it, and though I can't explain it all, it worked. I added the same for my CD player and tuner too, and each benefited a lot.

Orb
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
I have previously used 4 Genesis power cables which were daisy chained with PS Audio Quintet and PS Audio Premier Power Plant (retail worth ~$65 000). The single Judge power cable clearly beats them all. The Genesis is thin and veiled in comparison.

That Patrick82 sure is a little scamp.

He certainly is!

From his auction...

"At one point I decided I will not sell the Judge for less than $100 000. But then I acquired a girlfriend and one thing led to another and suddendly 11 babies were born..."

"Since Virtual Dynamics is bankrupt and my Judge is the only one in existence, it's only natural that the value of this cable will increase over time. Soon this cable will be worth $200 000 on the used market. I have decided I will sell this cable now and put the money into the stock market instead. Then I will expand the living space of the rabbits as well as my own Exeres company."

I hope he didn't spend it all in one place!

I like his "acquired a girlfriend".
What did he do, go to something like Russionwives.com, heh several years ago we caught a colleague looking at one of those international dating sites.
Strange most of the women said they were professional doctors, did he mention she was a doctor?

Have to say that cable looks like a dogs dinner, and how long is it, seems insanely short.
When you consider say a 2m to 3m cable added for just two bits of audio hardware, you could get a stunning true online UPS that guarantees a sinusoidal wave and without sagging or any other problems (the sort made for telecom rooms/equipment).
Just a pain to maintain due to the batteries and the dangers of DIY maintenance some would feel to do.

Also agree, if the concern is shielding, well 3k for a shit sorry I mean short bit of power cable is extremely excessive IMO.
Cheers
Orb

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

I have speaker cables for something that equals $200, phono IC cables for $350, balanced IC cables for $200 and a power cable worth $120. All the mentioned cables fit in nicely in the sound philosophy. Anything more expensive might (only) give me marginal improvements.

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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I have speaker cables for something that equals $200, phono IC cables for $350, balanced IC cables for $200 and a power cable worth $120. All the mentioned cables fit in nicely in the sound philosophy. Anything more expensive might (only) give me marginal improvements.

Define marginal. 10% is always a nice welcome. You know what they say about the word assume? It makes an ass out of me and Uma Thurman.

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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I have speaker cables for something that equals $200, phono IC cables for $350, balanced IC cables for $200 and a power cable worth $120. All the mentioned cables fit in nicely in the sound philosophy. Anything more expensive might (only) give me marginal improvements.

Define marginal. 10% is a nice round number and always welcome.

Freako
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

I don't know Uma personally, but I don't think you're an ass

I just mean with my (faulty) hearing ability, the quality of my system and all, there's probably not so much to gain by spending much more $ on cables.

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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I just mean with my (faulty) hearing ability, the quality of my system and all, there's probably not so much to gain by spending much more $ on cables.

Touche!

ncdrawl
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

DaDa, you don't need words to make an ass of yourself. Quantum ass-ery.

Freako
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

That's right Geoff... NC is always willing to help

Orb
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:
I have speaker cables for something that equals $200, phono IC cables for $350, balanced IC cables for $200 and a power cable worth $120. All the mentioned cables fit in nicely in the sound philosophy. Anything more expensive might (only) give me marginal improvements.

Makes good sense, even if one had a system that say cost 30k I still cannot see how that cable can be justified over say the mid reference (not the very top product) of say CrystalCable/Furutech/Supra/etc that can be a 3rd of the price.

And unfortunately there is no consistency on cable performance that can vary system to system, even when it comes to mains power this can vary house to house so for some they just need a shielded mains cable while others need a true online UPS as well (seems quality varies here in the UK).

Cheers
Orb

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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That's right Geoff... NC is always willing to help

Yup, 'pears he's got one o' them thar whoppers.

Freako
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
I have speaker cables for something that equals $200, phono IC cables for $350, balanced IC cables for $200 and a power cable worth $120. All the mentioned cables fit in nicely in the sound philosophy. Anything more expensive might (only) give me marginal improvements.

Makes good sense, even if one had a system that say cost 30k I still cannot see how that cable can be justified over say the mid reference (not the very top product) of say CrystalCable/Furutech/Supra/etc that can be a 3rd of the price.

And unfortunately there is no consistency on cable performance that can vary system to system, even when it comes to mains power this can vary house to house so for some they just need a shielded mains cable while others need a true online UPS as well (seems quality varies here in the UK).

Cheers
Orb

I have learned from others that what you say can be true both in the UK and the US. Luckily I am blessed with a very clean and stable power supply.

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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It DOES seem crazy for sure. On the other hand, I tried a $150 Audioquest cord on my (previous) Creek integrated amp and I did a double take before I even got back to my chair! I went and switched it back and sure enough- it was real. To me- better/tighter bass, clearer mids, and overall less grain. I'm not one to be sucked in by spending for the sake of it, and though I can't explain it all, it worked. I added the same for my CD player and tuner too, and each benefited a lot.

I was very skeptical till I tried a PS audio pwr crd and heard a difference, though I think it is crazy to invent more than system cost in a cable.

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
It DOES seem crazy for sure. On the other hand, I tried a $150 Audioquest cord on my (previous) Creek integrated amp and I did a double take before I even got back to my chair! I went and switched it back and sure enough- it was real. To me- better/tighter bass, clearer mids, and overall less grain. I'm not one to be sucked in by spending for the sake of it, and though I can't explain it all, it worked. I added the same for my CD player and tuner too, and each benefited a lot.

I was very skeptical till I tried a PS audio pwr crd and heard a difference, though I think it is crazy to invent more than system cost in a cable.

The most ingrained psychology for aspiring audiophiles seems to be that there is an unwritten law that says there's a ceiling above which system performance cannot rise. This is strictly an old wives tale. There is no ceiling and system performance is not logarithmic (with ever decreasing improvements for dollars spent).

Free your mind and your ass will follow. - old audiophile axiom

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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<snip>system performance is not logarithmic (with ever decreasing improvements for dollars spent).


Unfortunately there is little correlation between dollars and sound quality in absolute terms.

However one is rewarded with much more spending the first $20k on a well-matched system, than one realizes when spending the next $20k.

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
<snip>system performance is not logarithmic (with ever decreasing improvements for dollars spent).


Unfortunately there is little correlation between dollars and sound quality in absolute terms.

However one is rewarded with much more spending the first $20k on a well-matched system, than one realizes when spending the next $20k.

Depends on who's doing the spending. I suppose you're one of those people who doesn't believe you can double your performance for $100.

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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I suppose you're one of those people who doesn't believe you can double your performance for $100.


What is your starting reference?

How are you defining "double performance?"

What specifically is one buying for $100.00?

One probably can probably subjectively "double performance" by spending $100.00 instead of $50.00.

But "double" the sound quality of a well-matched $20k system by spending $100.00? This is going to be good.

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
I suppose you're one of those people who doesn't believe you can double your performance for $100.


What is your starting reference?

How are you defining "double performance?"

What specifically is one buying for $100.00?

One probably can probably subjectively "double performance" by spending $100.00 instead of $50.00.

But "double" the sound quality of a well-matched $20k system by spending $100.00? This is going to be good.

Perfectly valid question. I agree that performance is subjective, and performance of the system could be judged better in terms of air, frequency extension, bass definition, transparency, height and depth of soundstage, lack of distortion, lack of grain, dynamics and microdynamics, image density, timbre/tone/color, snap in upper bass, more life, those sorts of things. All depends on what the individual values in the sound, what floats his boat and to a certain extent what has eluded him so far.

Or you could take the measurements approach and say that doubling the system signal to noise ratio (a 3 dB increase) and/or doubling the dynamic range is a suitable defintion of doubling performance. Depends on whether you're a subjectivist kind of guy or a measurements oriented one.

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

Either approach sounds good.

So again, what can we buy or obtain for $100.00 which will double the sound quality of an already well-matched system?

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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Either approach sounds good.

So again, what can we buy or obtain for $100.00 which will double the sound quality of an already well-matched system?

A concert ticket.

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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Either approach sounds good.

So again, what can we buy or obtain for $100.00 which will double the sound quality of an already well-matched system?

Let's be clear we are talking about tweaks. Since all systems are different and all rooms are different, the solution that brings a 100% improvement varies from system to system and room to room. Start by making a list of things that can be done for no expense for this hypothetical system that's "well-matched," as you say. This list should Include (1) clean all electrical contacts, including wall outlets and vacuum tube pins, (2) check for absolute polarity of the system, including correct wiring of all speaker drivers (using a small battery), (3) determine precise speaker locations using the XLO Test CD, (4) evaluate the listening chair for possible sound degradation and replace if necessary, (5) remove any large rugs from the floor and/or wall to assess their impact on the sound, (6) remove all Sonex from the room, (7) elevate or suspend all cables and cords, (8) organize/relocate all cabling and power cords to minimize electrical interference, (9) check all fuses in system by ear for proper directionality and (10) obtain absolute level of turntable platter or CD transport.

That's a short list of free tweaks; you could compile a much longer list if you wish. After accomplishing the items on the list of free things to do, and you still have not achieved at least 100% improvement to system performance, compile a list of inexpensive tweaks, say those under $50, and pick the ones that appear to offer the most hope for what you're attempting to achieve. This could be a very long list. If the ones you try first don't provide the expected results, return them and try different ones. Eventually you'll hit upon the correct combination of free and inexpensive tweaks that doubles your system performance.

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
So again, what can we buy or obtain for $100.00 which will double the sound quality of an already well-matched system?

A concert ticket.


Elk
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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Eventually you'll hit upon the correct combination of free and inexpensive tweaks that doubles your system performance.

Where is that <roll eyes> emoticon when you need it?

As expected, nothing to back up the posturing but noise.

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
Eventually you'll hit upon the correct combination of free and inexpensive tweaks that doubles your system performance.

Where is that <roll eyes> emoticon when you need it?

As expected, nothing to back up the posturing but noise.

Ilk, You're either at ground zero or just a big fat troll. Perhaps both.

~ Tootles

Jan Vigne
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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Ilk, You're either at ground zero or just a big fat troll. Perhaps both.

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
Ilk, You're either at ground zero or just a big fat troll. Perhaps both.

"Standing out in his field." I reckon that would be left field.

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Quote:
Ilk, You're either at ground zero or just a big fat troll. Perhaps both.


Sorry, neither over-sized nor mythical.

Geoff, I am just disappointed that there is so little substance behind your absurd exaggerations; that is, a poor signal to noise ratio.

Your response is akin to promising, "I can improve your gas mileage for free!" and then telling people to drive 5 mph slower.

You claimed you can double the performance of a system for less than $100.00. This is clearly nonsense.

Your answer sadly reveals your actual claim: through extensive experimentation you should be able to improve the sound of a system haphazardly set-up by someone with no knowledge of enthusiast audio. This is probably true, but not much of an accomplishment.

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
Ilk, You're either at ground zero or just a big fat troll. Perhaps both.


Sorry, neither over-sized nor mythical.

Geoff, I am just disappointed that there is so little substance behind your absurd exaggerations; that is, a poor signal to noise ratio.

Your response is akin to promising, "I can improve your gas mileage for free!" and then telling people to drive 5 mph slower.

You claimed you can double the performance of a system for less than $100.00. This is clearly nonsense.

Your answer sadly reveals your actual claim: through extensive experimentation you should be able to improve the sound of a system haphazardly set-up by someone with no knowledge of enthusiast audio. This is probably true, but not much of an accomplishment.

Never give the keys to the highway to someone who can't drive. ~ old audiophile adage.

Elk
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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Never give the keys to the highway to someone who can't drive. ~ old audiophile adage.


I'm not sure we can even describe this as a mixed metaphor, but it certainly is a mixed something.

Do please share if you come up with generally unknown inexpensive ways to improve audio playback. Effective cheap tweaks are always good.

Orb
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

Aha I got one, getting the ears cleaned.
I am sure there are quite a few people with buildup of earwax.

There you go, one cheap generally unknown tweak Elk
Cheers
Orb

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
Never give the keys to the highway to someone who can't drive. ~ old audiophile adage.


I'm not sure we can even describe this as a mixed metaphor, but it certainly is a mixed something.

Do please share if you come up with generally unknown inexpensive ways to improve audio playback. Effective cheap tweaks are always good.

Uh, I already provided you with a list of FREE tweaks to improve playback. The last time I looked you can't get any cheaper than FREE. Methinks you protest too much.

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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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Uh, I already provided you with a list of FREE tweaks to improve playback. The last time I looked you can't get any cheaper than FREE.

Dammit, post some we get paid to use.

Elk
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


Quote:

Quote:
Do please share if you come up with generally unknown inexpensive ways to improve audio playback.

Uh, I already provided you with a list of FREE tweaks to improve playback.

See above. That is, something beyond what we all already know.

(I'm going to try the ear cleaning tweak. )

P.S. Cleaning your car's windshield can improve outward visibility! It could double your visual acuity!

geoffkait
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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See above. That is, something beyond what we all already know.

Help me out a little bit, tell me what you don't already know and I'll try to fill in the blanks.

roadster
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord

I'm so confused. I've seen power cables of such a massive guage it could tow a Mac truck and others so thin I could floss my teeth. Just give me some wire and connectors from Ace Hardware.

Jan Vigne
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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Help me out a little bit, tell me what you don't already know and I'll try to fill in the blanks.

According to Elk, there's nothing he doesn't already know - as long as the topic involves microphone placement.

geoffkait
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Quote:

Quote:
Help me out a little bit, tell me what you don't already know and I'll try to fill in the blanks.

According to Elk, there's nothing he doesn't already know - as long as the topic involves microphone placement.

I bet I know a microphone placement he hasn't thought of already.

Elk
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Re: biggest snake oil scam ever: the power cord


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Help me out a little bit, tell me what you don't already know and I'll try to fill in the blanks.

We are speaking (writing) at cross-purposes.

You declared that you could double performance of a system for less than $100.00. Impressive at face value.

Unfortunately when asked to explain, you assumed a system set-up with little attention and your suggested tweaks are those that have been repeatedly discussed over the years. We all have opinions and experience as to their efficacy.

None of your suggestions are bad, they are just the same old stuff. I had hoped for something new, not a rehash of that already well-known.

Your suggestions are akin to posting in a drag racing forum that you can improve elapsed time for free! Then you declare that one can get more traction lowering the pressure in the rear tires and by doing a proper burn-out. These fit in the "well, duh" category.


Quote:
I bet I know a microphone placement he hasn't thought of already.

Once again, spill. What is this placement or technique?

Some recently developed recording techniques show great promise. For example, Ray Kimber's IsoMike system using omni mics and giant heart-shaped baffles produces wonderful sound. IsoMike pictures

Much more complicated and expensive than what many of us can use, but great stuff.

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