robellengold
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Audio system for very large room
commsysman
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The first thing you need to do is look for some speakers that have good very sensitivity...90 db per watt or better.

Lower-sensitivity speakers will require impractical amounts of power; each 3db that the speaker sensitivity goes down requires twice as much power for the same sound level.

I other words, a 90 db/watt speaker would probably work well with a 200 watt amplifier, but a speaker with 84 db/watt sensitivity would need an 800 watt amp to give the same sound level.

I would look at a pair of Klipsch Heresy III speakers, which are WAY more sensitive than most speakers at an incredible 99 db per watt. These are excellent speakers that would be perfect for your situation. Crutchfield has them for $1000 each which fits your budget nicely.

These speakers would allow you to get by with a very modest amplifier, say 60 watts or less, while most speakers will require MUCH larger amplifiers for your space.

For an amplifier, I suggest the Cambridge Audio CXA 80 Integrated amplifier, which runs $1000 and will power the Heresy speakers very well.

You best bet to get the noise under control is probably a combination of acoustic tiles and heavily padded draperies.

You should go with a 2-channel system; a 5-channel system would be MUCH more difficult to get decent sound from in such a large room.

bierfeldt
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I would agree with commsysman that a super efficient speaker would be a great solution to your room issue. The Heresy's are maybe the perfect suggestion. That being saild, Klipsch speakers tend to be a bit bright and the Heresy IIIs are no exception. Pairing with a solid state integrated amp might lead to a fatiguing sound.

I personally would look at a tube based integrated. I like the Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II at $2499 or the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP at $4399. The Cronus Magnum II is a super value and I am a huge fan of Rogue. I own a Rogue power amp. The DiaLogue Premium HP is even better and you would need to spend a LOT of money to outperform it in a meanigful way. If you can afford the PrimaLuna it is a no brainer. If your budget after room treatments is tighter, I would go with the Rogue.

If you do want a Solid State unit, I would look at a Rega Elicit R at $2999. By solid state standards, Rega is extremely warm and will sound closer to a tube unit than any othe integrated I can think of.

I know all of these are dramatically more than the Cambridge unit commsysman reccomended, but I think you would be happier with them paired with those Klipsh speakers.

Also, given the low end perfomance of the Heresey's at 58hz, you are going to want a subwoofer as well. I would look at the Sunfire HRS 12. It has a 1000w amp yet delivers super refined sound and is a very strong value at $1050

robellengold
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Thank you both - very helpful - I will look into these options - luckily I am getting the acoustic panels for a good deal -going with the swedish gingko ones

rrstesiak
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AMPLIFICATION:
I've always had the NAD C275BEE in the back of my mind for systems that demand alot of *POWER* at a reasonable cost. Something severely hard to do.

Buy two of these at about $1200 each... and for $2400, you will have >330 Watts at 8 0hm per channel of Monoblock solid state muscle, with transients up to 800 WATTS. NAD is notorious for their solid build and ability to handle huge wattage and transients and difficult speaker loads.

My very thoroughly researched out and long running recommendation for power on a realistic budget.

This power will open up your choice of many, many more speakers without having to rely on horn loading yielding the notorious thin horn sound...86 db with 330 watts per channel?.. no problem.

AMPLIFICATION, PHONO and DAC:
If NAD is a little too mid-fi, then the next step up with a slight loss of power would easily have to be Musical Fidelity ... either their 230 Watt per channel balanced amp (M6PRX), or their 220 Watt per channel Integrated amp, the M6si, which I believe to be the absolute best deal in hifi today, for $3,000. That will also kill many birds with one stone: Amp, Dac, Phonostage.

SPEAKERS:
A quick but also long-standing recommendation for rooms of all sizes: Magnepan speakers. Just pick the ones your budget can handle. I would probably start at the Super MMG... for $1200, it includes their own subwoofer design. For a little more, you can get world class going with a larger magnepan panel.

Respectfully,

Ron

bierfeldt
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Maggies are very hard to drive with a nominal impedance of 4ohms and have a relatively low SPL at 86dB. For some perspective, to get the same power output out of the Maggies and the Klipsch Heresey IIIs with a 99dB SPL you would need 20x the power.

The Klipsch speakers receiving 50w of power would output 103.3dB of volume at 20ft. To get that same output out of Maggies you would need to deliver 1000w. Now, in fairness this can be done.

You could get 2 Emotiva XPR-1s and and an XSP-1 for $4400, the same price as the PrimaLun DiaLogue Premium HP. Speakers would be about the same price.

The one upside to the Emotiva and Maggie combo is that you could try it in home without risk as both have generous return policies but Emotiva isn't in the same league as Rogue or PrimLuna for quality of amplification.

There is a valid critique of the "horn" sound being thin and IMO, bright. Solid state amps tend to enhance this. That is again why I would encourage a tube amp which will deliver a thicker, rouned, richer sound and will marry well with those Klipsch speakers.

rrstesiak
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SPL is exponential.. 103.3 dB is very loud for any length of time.

A more reasonable SPL of 98.5 is achieved using the same caculations for the Maggies driven with 330 watts at 20 feet away. Bear in mind these speakers are dipole speakers, meaning sound comes out the back equally as loud as the front! And, it is recommended to place them far from the back wall..about 4-6 feet away. At this distance, an SPL of 101 is achieved..resulting in more than adequate room sound levels; even for cavernous spaces. With Maggies, they also distribute the sound in a more radial, 360 degree pattern; as opposed to all other cone type and horn speakers which only radiate from the front; and even then often a listening "sweet spot" has to be chosen with a listing chair to get the best sound.

I also just don't want a listener given an incorrect debate and being suggested mediocre at best emotiva gear with a decent budget of $10,000.

It is fact "Maggies are hard to drive"..that is precisely why I am suggesting the Armored Tank-like 2 Ohm stable NAD C275BEE...it is more than capable to drive the Magnepans very well. (in bridged-mono mode, it is 4 Ohm stable).

So, one can blast the music of their choice using the magnepan speakers achieving 101 dB from 14 feet away from the speaker; 20 feet away from the back wall..a pretty neat calculation trick with the advantage of the dipole design and with NAD quality MONOBLOCK mode amps. I would prefer this than all of the gear previously mentioned. The previous posts are banking on super high sensitivity horn-driven speakers..I have auditioned Klipsch high end models being driven by tube amps..and I did not like the sound. It was honestly tinny and thin..and when I put a CD in, it was just harsh...the CD player was an Oppo..so it wasn't a bad player/DAC..I want to steer you towards a far more capable speaker..at the slight sacrifice of AMP finesse.

Using SPL calcs again, at 10 feet away, (or 16 feet from the back wall)..those Maggies and the NAD amplifiers will crank out 104dB.

As I said with my first post, I have given this potent combination a lot of my own personal time and research and it is one of my "dream system" scenarios I would personally buy if I could start all over again.

Finally, if you haven't heard of Magnepan speakers, their website is pretty humble..and they cannot be purchased in most dealers; as the company removes the middle man to save costs for us, the consumer, to attain a truly world class product at reasonable prices. Here is their website:

http://www.magnepan.com/models

Magnepan also allows a 30 day home trial to thoroughly evaluate their speakers.

I am offering a different approach, with a different opinion. Only YOUR ears will ultimately tell you which setup you prefer. I am certain many users prefer Klipsch..otherwise they wouldn't be in business for decades. I; however, would absolutely JUMP at the Magnepan speakers though as I said if I could start all over.

Regards,

Ronald R. Stesiak, PhD
National Science Foundation

disclaimer: in spite of my strong recommendation of Magnepan speakers, I am in no way affiliated with the company; nor am I a salesman in audio. Just a listener like the rest of us, who prefers very serious hifi gear..hence Stereophile Magazine. :)

bierfeldt
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My experience has been low SPL speakers in a big room is a recipe for disappointment. I also agree that Emotiva is mediocre but it is the only manufaturer I could think of that you could put together a monblock system with what I feel is adequate power for under $10K.

The above assumptions are based on pushing those little NAD amps to clipping regarding output to get to these high volume levels. You aren't going to go past 75% of power output because fluctuations in power consumption and the sound also tends thin when amps get pushed to those levels. I prefer to assume that I am not going to go beyond 50% of the power output of an amp to achieve volume levels I want in the given room to ensure full, robust sound.

The dipole design of the Maggies may make them an exception, but my experience is that every speaker I have ever owned is harder than I expected to drive. My Infinity's, Revels, Sunfires, B&Ws and even the speakers I made have all required more power than I expected to achieve the volume levels I want.

Here is another interesting option. Paradigm Prestige 95F which have a sensitivity of 94dB so they are easy to drive but with a more traditional, non horn based design. They are $5K for the pair. For power amp, the Peachtree Nova 220SE currently on sale for $1599. Peachtree makes wonderful integrated amps and this is a hybrid, class D / Tube design that that is smooth and warm and I think would meld well with Paradigm speakers.

With 110w of power (50% of the Peachtrees output), the Paradigm's would get to 101.7 dB at 20ft so plenty of volume and a more traditional sound.

Again, this is a conservative approach but I have been burned previously with inadequate power.

rrstesiak
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bierfeldt & All:

I have no idea how you found those speakers, but they look like true giant killers to me. Well done!

And you do make a good point for driving speakers to the limits of amplifiers, being careful to watch for clipping. Though the NAD actually has built in advanced electronics they've patented and used since the 80's that gracefully prevent harsh clipping. The circuit is also defeatable for the purists.

However, you did bring up very fair points and I would agree with your find of the Paradigm Prestige 95F speakers. Have you had the pleasure of auditioning the Paradigms?

As for the calculations, with 220 watts, and at 20 feet, those speakers would deliver 104 dB of sonic goodness. More than enough to allow the OP to reduce the volume to non-clipping levels with any 220 watt amp. In this case, I would again suggest the Musical Fidelity M6si, which at $3,000, fully balanced, 220 watts @ 8 Ohm, and including a very good phono stage and a decent DAC, would put the OP within budget, leaving $2,000 for a turntable & cartridge, and cabling and any other accessories.

The Rogue Cronos Magnum sounds like a very attractive tube-based contender if the OP ends up preferring the sound of tubes. at 100 watts, that is very powerful in a tube based unit. Usually one has to spend much much more for that kind of power from tubes. Using the same calcs, at 20 feet we are still above 100 dB, to be exact, 101.3.

It would be awesome to demo both the Rogue and the Musical Fidelity. I am jealous of the OP's wonderful position of starting from scratch.

Kind Regards,

Ron

bierfeldt
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That being said, Paradigm is known for producing efficient, very good loudspeakers but they tend to be a bit forward. Musical Fidelity is also known for being a touch forward. Pairing those two together could be fatiguing. That is why I suggested the Peachtree which has a warmer sound.

I would be cautious of the Rogue Cronus Magnum. I think it would sound fabulous but I would have a bit of a concern with the modest power levels in that big room.

rrstesiak
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So far, it looks like we have the following recommendations:

1. Klipsch Heresy III Speakers...pretty much any quality amp can drive them..the Rogue Cronus Magnum was mentioned...
2. Magnepan Speakers with dual NAD C275BEE amps.
3. Paradigm Prestige 95F Speakers with Peachtree Nova 220SE

Those are three wildly different systems...and no doubt wildly different house sounds...

I think a great start, thanks to everyone's input -

Best Regards,

Ron

robellengold
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Thanks to everyone - willl now have to find a very large listening room and try out these combinations

rainsoothe
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Hi. That's a pretty hefty budget you got there. Try to find used or ex-dem Naim Supernait 2 + Naim NDX to fit an 8k $ budget. Then add a pair of Martin Logan Motion 40, which go for 2k in the US. Either that, or Focal Aria 936.

Now, if that is too expensive, still try to audition the amp + speakers, but switch the NDS (streamer) to a Cambridge Audio CXN, and switch speakers to Martin Logan Motion XT60 or Focal Aria 946.

Alternatively, look at Hegel H160 + either of the afforementioned speakers, adding Kef R900 to the mix.

If you don't know what a streamer is, it plays everything in your home network and on the internet (provided there's a connection), only missing the CD playback bit. The Cambridge Audio CXN also has a DAC, which means you could plug any laptop/bluray player/cheap cd player with digital out into it, and the CXN will do the sound processing. Same goes for the Hegel H160, which has an integrated DAC.

robellengold
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hi - tried out these combos - but I guess when I asked for power I didn't realize that would be as strong - I ended up going for the following which sounds awesome in the place with some acoustic panels
Rogue Audio Pharaoh hybrid integrated amp
ProAc Studio 148 speakers
Rega Saturn R CD / DAC
And I also got a streamer for Tidal / CDs - Aurender N-100 H

thx
Rob

bierfeldt
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Congratulations. That sounds awesome. Those ProAc are really supposed to come alive in a big space. I have never heard them before but the reviews make it sound like they are absolutely perfect for you.

Thank you for sharing what you bought.

rainsoothe
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congrats and ditto on the sharing bit.

Enjoy :)

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