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Jan Vigne
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:
You seem to have no musical skills and you never talk about it

I have no musical skills? ... ? ...?

You can tell that from a forum?

How?

Because I didn't agree with you about PRaT?

I also haven't mentioned I have brown eyes. Do you assume I have no visual acuity?


Quote:
Man, you're funny.

I know. Wish I could say the same about you but, alas, 'tis not to be.


Quote:
Come on, let's get together the next time I'm in Dallas. They'll have to drop the drinking age before I'll buy you a beer, but coffee, Mountain Dew or Red Bull might work for you.

Nah, I don't think so. You'll want to go some place that takes an AARP card and gives a senior discount. Then I'll have to watch you gum your coffee.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Audio Cliches


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... and then move onto more sublime things.

That would be what? Discussing bowel movements with the other McCain supporters?

Elk
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Re: Audio Cliches


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There is quite a developed music language that far more accurately can describe what is or is not happening.


Even without using Italian.

Elk
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Re: Audio Cliches


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[Ok, I just received my first NEW, as in not used, record in over 30 years.


Excellent!

What did you get? And why did you break down and do such a silly thing?

dcstep
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:

Quote:
You seem to have no musical skills and you never talk about it

I have no musical skills? ... ? ...?

You can tell that from a forum?

How?

Because I didn't agree with you about PRaT?

You don't use the lingo.

Go ahead, prove me wrong and tell me what you play and give me a link or two to the groups that you play with. Shoot, we'll even believe you without any evidence, just tell us your secret.

Dave

JIMV
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:

Quote:
... and then move onto more sublime things.

That would be what? Discussing bowel movements with the other McCain supporters?

None of those in my home...this year both parties produced turkeys, a raving RINO and a limousine liberal elitist who cannot speak without a teleprompter.

No, the listening session will have to suffice.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Audio Cliches


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Go ahead, prove me wrong and tell me what you play and give me a link or two to the groups that you play with.

You never answered my earlier question but I assume you only consider someone a true "musician" if they get paid for their time and play in a group. OK. That's something else we disagree on.

Tell you what, John Atkinson is a musician and I believe he has received pay for his performances - and applause - and played with others. And I don't feel he agreed with you about PRaT. Ask him your questions.

JIMV
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:

Quote:
[Ok, I just received my first NEW, as in not used, record in over 30 years.


Excellent!

What did you get? And why did you break down and do such a silly thing?

I had bought a modest vinyl system as my city has a 'Vinyl Appreciation Society' (I expected a lot of elderly, pot bellied, refugees from the 60's...in short, hairier versions of me but found they were mostly kids and professionals). After attending a meeting or so, I found myself in a hobby that did not take the megabucks of digital to make real improvements and a world of old, lost vinyl that never was transitioned to digital. The sound of vinyl, where it is strong, is pretty good for the bucks. I was annoyed that the used vinyl I was buying often had the same problems that drove me from vinyl 35 years ago...skips, pops, surface noise, etc, so I decided to see if the 'new vinyl' had the same problems.

I bought classic jazz, something I have on CD, Getz/Gilberto doing Jobim on the Verve lable in 180g vinyl.

I will probably wait for tomorrow to play with it. I also bought yet another tweak for my main system, this time an expensive fuse for the amp. Too soon to say if has had any real effect but hope springs eternal. I hope some day to get the amazing results described in reviews from something that costs less than a used car but so far, while I get changes, they are minor and cumulative. Fiddle with cables, use a good contact cleaner, premium connectors, magic noise eating wall warts, etc...Put all together, the effect is an improvement I can hear consistently but alone they seem to do very little.

On the plus side, they also cost very little so I can play. I think next I will try a PS audio aftemarket power cable.

Elk
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Re: Audio Cliches


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I had bought a modest vinyl system as my city has a 'Vinyl Appreciation Society' ...


Fun! Great story.

Let us know what you think of the LP, especially since you have the CD.

JIMV
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Re: Audio Cliches

Will do...Part of the fun of audio is making changes while searching for nirvanah. The problem is the cost. Lots of snake oil out there and some of it VERY expensive. Vinyl at my level lets me play without raiding the retirement account.

dcstep
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:

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Go ahead, prove me wrong and tell me what you play and give me a link or two to the groups that you play with.

You never answered my earlier question but I assume you only consider someone a true "musician" if they get paid for their time and play in a group. OK. That's something else we disagree on.

Tell you what, John Atkinson is a musician and I believe he has received pay for his performances - and applause - and played with others. And I don't feel he agreed with you about PRaT. Ask him your questions.

I never put a condition on being a musician. There are probably others, but so far as I know, the only regular here that makes most of his living from music performance is Elk. The standard is not that high. You don't even have to play in your high school band.

As for JA, he linked to a discussion of PRaD, not PRaT, and only admitted to using the term PRaT, never defending it. Still, it's not relevent if he agrees with me or not since the topic is cliche's that annoy us. There's no doubt to anyone reading this thread that many consider PRaT a cliche' and would like to see it go away. You've lost sight of the thread.

Musicians here that have identified themselves as musicians say that Pace and Rhythm have specific meanings to them. You don't seem to understand the musical meanings of these word, so I'm exploring if there's a linkage between you lack of understanding and your not being a musician.

Obviously, you're uneasy with disclosing your musical skills, so the world will have to keep spinning without the answer to your little secret.

There are plenty of non-musicians in the world and I don't think you need to be a musician to be an audiophile. That was recently discussed in another thread, either here or at A'gon. I was able to contribute several examples of real audiophiles, with great ears, that neither played an instrument or sang seriously.

Dave

cyclebrain
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Re: Audio Cliches

Wow, 17 pages in 3 days to a post. Is that a record?
Maybe someone could quantify the replies into annoying cliches by author. Annoying cliches by topic. Annoying cliches by advertiser.
Maybe J.A could devise a test to measure if a product produces an excessive amount of cliches when reviewed.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Audio Cliches


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As for JA, he linked to a discussion of PRaD, not PRaT, and only admitted to using the term PRaT, never defending it.

Try again, you can split that hair even finer.


Quote:
You've lost sight of the thread.

LOL!


Quote:
You don't seem to understand the musical meanings of these word ...

I don't understand them the way you want them understood. Likewise, I could say the same about you. I'm still trying to figure out why you think the player would actually spin at a different speed.


Quote:
Obviously, you're uneasy with disclosing your musical skills, so the world will have to keep spinning without the answer to your little secret.

I have mentioned on this forum which instrument I play. You must have been looking the other way - again.


Quote:
There are plenty of non-musicians in the world and I don't think you need to be a musician to be an audiophile.

Then it shouldn't matter whether I am a "musician" or not in anyone's estimation. If you need not be a musician to understand the terms, you are contradicting yourself.

I understand the terms, just not the way you want them understood.

dcstep
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Re: Audio Cliches


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I'm still trying to figure out why you think the player would actually spin at a different speed.

I think you've confused me with someone else. I never said anything about anything spinning.

Dave

gkc
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Re: Audio Cliches

Jan, I am not really addressing this to you. I am just clicking in on the last post of the thread.

I have scanned it. The whole damned thing. My eyes glazed over (this may be another audiophile cliche).

PRAT. "Pace, rhythm, and timing." PRaT. Same deal.

Good PRAT happens when any system is functioning well. Bad PRAT happens when the system is off. A system is a collection of components. If any one of them is off or doesn't fit, bad PRAT occurs.

Part of the system is the software. Often, bad PRAT is recorded into the CD or LP. Tant pis. No system will elevate bad PRAT to good PRAT if bad PRAT is in the software. Now, at this point, Ethan can foam up over the importance of comb filters in furthering good PRAT. I won't argue.

Like any other single criterion for realistic sound that is abstracted out of the matrix, PRAT is a useless phrase. Hence, the comments, serious and otherwise, that treat the phrase as a cliche. It is a cliche. It tells you nothing.

If your system is transparent, PRAT will be good, as long as the software monger recorded it right.

To single out PRAT as an audiophile desideratum , in and of itself, is akin to singling out any other audio criterion. Harmonic distortion. Phase shift. And etc.

So, if a reviewer invokes PRAT, damn him or her to audiophile hell. The system is not functioning properly, and reviewers review components, at LEAST 99.999% of the time, not systems.

PRAT is fundament. Fundament is what you sit on, not what you listen to.

Why quarrel over such bullshit? Let us quarrel over more meaningful issues. Such as who has the most watts sucking out of the grid. Or how far is too far, concerning speaker cone excursions. Or which preamps (or speaker crossovers) have the best capacitors.

Someone on this thread complained about posters getting off topic. What the hell did you expect? We're discussing cliches.

Happy listening. I have a Hortini waiting. And Britten's Peter Grimes on deck, in glorious vinyl, conducted by the composer. It ought to be a depressing evening, with such tragedy in store, but the Hortinis will elevate the proceedings to a state of pure joy. And PRAT will be nowhere in sight or earshot.

cyclebrain
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Re: Audio Cliches

Worst cliches?
J.A. - The speakers sensitivity measured 89db. Lower than the specified 89.1db but well within the measurement error.

J.A. The speaker was too heavy to place on my test stand.

tomjtx
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Re: Audio Cliches

Dave, we (professional musicians) would never use the words pace or timing, they are not a part of our musical vocabulary. Rhythm, tempo, articulation,the manipulation of time(rubato, accelerando, ritenuto, ritardando,slargando etc all have very specific meanings and sometimes only subtle differences.

It is hard to discuss musical differences (both live and recorded) when one doesn't have the vocabulary.

Audiophiles could increase there appreciation and understanding of music by taking a music appreciation course and later taking some music theory, That would be a more significant and more permanent upgrade than dropping 100,000 on a system.

Simply learning the vocabulary of music can go a long way toward increasing one's listening skills.

Elk
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:
Worst cliches?
J.A. - The speakers sensitivity measured 89db. Lower than the specified 89.1db but well within the measurement error.

J.A. The speaker was too heavy to place on my test stand.


Elk
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:
Dave, we (professional musicians) would never use the words pace or timing, they are not a part of our musical vocabulary. Rhythm, tempo, articulation,the manipulation of time(rubato, accelerando, ritenuto, ritardando,slargando etc all have very specific meanings and sometimes only subtle differences.


Exactly.

Moreover these subtle differences make tremendous differences, as do dynamic differences - such as a feminine cadence.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Audio Cliches


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... the manipulation of time(rubato, accelerando, ritenuto, ritardando,slargando etc ...

This is not what the "T" in PRaT stands for.

Possibly learning the vocabulary of audio would allow a musician to better understand what the audio community is talking about when they are in the audio community. Musicians were always tricky customers because they wanted things their way and didn't care about the way audio operates. They wanted balogna when I was selling Mortadella.

tomjtx
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Re: Audio Cliches

I notice JV responded to my post but I don't know the content since
I have had him on ignore for some time now and have no plans to change that.

gkc
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Re: Audio Cliches

Tomjtx, if you'll tell me how to mix a "slargando," I'll tell you how to mix a Hortini.

I can't wait to blog a review with that baby.

"I found the tonal balance tolerable, and pace, rhythm, and timing were impeccable. These babies ROCK! However, after 6 months of listening to the nuances that haunt the interstitial silences of the Hovhaness Motets for Muted Moosehorns, I noticed a slight slurring of the slargandos. Perhaps I was mistaken in my initial enthusiasms. Perhaps these speakers are, dare I say, flawed in certain indefinable areas. Perhaps I shouldn't have pencilled into my listening notes, "Class A, With a Bullet!" Perhaps I should stop listening to Hovhaness. Wait, scratch that. It isn't the messenger. Er, don't blame the message. But I am haunted, still, by the muffed slargandos, even after I reluctantly turned the speakers over to the Fed Ex man. I am going to miss these beauties. Er, uglies? Shit. I forgot which. Still, I heartily recommend that you give the Hornfart III's a careful listen, if you are shopping in the $50,000 and above range. If your ears are half as good as mine, you may notice the muffed slargandos. But, then again, who goes with Hovanhess? Heartily recommended."

tomjtx
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Re: Audio Cliches

LOL, would that be named a Hortando or a Slargtini?

Either way, I'm sure it would make big improvement to the listening experience.

Couldn't resist throwing in the slargando term, so far I have only seen it in 19th century guitar music :-)

Jan Vigne
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Re: Audio Cliches


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I have had him on ignore

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. So on and so forth. I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! I'm so glad! Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a gigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a gigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a gigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a cigar. Have a gigar.

I'm on ignore.

Thanks!

michaelavorgna
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Re: Audio Cliches

The one I'm most tired of is teh image of the audiophile as some nerdy obsessive argumentative socially inept misfit.

dcstep
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:
I notice JV responded to my post but I don't know the content since
I have had him on ignore for some time now and have no plans to change that.

You're not missing anything Tom. He's just playing with himself... er, whatever.

Dave

dcstep
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Re: Audio Cliches

Classic review.

Elk
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Re: Audio Cliches


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... Hovhaness Motets for Muted Moosehorns,...

Does anyone know where I can get a copy?

I think I would enjoy this music.

tomjtx
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:

Quote:
... Hovhaness Motets for Muted Moosehorns,...

Does anyone know where I can get a copy?

I think I would enjoy this music.

Only in Canada at Mort's MooseMart & Music Cafe

Jan Vigne
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Re: Audio Cliches

Wha'd he say?

KBK
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Re: Audio Cliches


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You can't beat sense into a mule.

For some, there can be stress relief in the trying.

KBK
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
... Hovhaness Motets for Muted Moosehorns,...

Does anyone know where I can get a copy?

I think I would enjoy this music.

Only in Canada at Mort's MooseMart & Music Cafe

Yes, that would be in the 'Canadian Tire' Store's hunting section..it's the 'Crappy Tire' Choir and chorus' latest recording.

For some minimal amusement, type 'crappy tire' into Google. Canadians seem to love their 'crappy tire' stores, and there is a legal battle over the website name where Canadian tire stores wants to own the site...and claims eminent domain over the name as all Canadians use it as a term of endearment for their favorite store. Seriously.

gkc
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Re: Audio Cliches

I was on a roll.

Elk
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Re: Audio Cliches


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Only in Canada at Mort's MooseMart & Music Cafe


Canada...where the beer bottles labels are stuck on with maple syrup.

rvance
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Re: Audio Cliches

PRaT may be a hoary, meaningless AUDIO cliche, but it is absolutely essential to COMEDY (at least the funny kind).
You guys are murdering the shit out of it!

But I'm learning a lot about audio...so thanks, anyway.

JIMV
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:

Quote:
I had bought a modest vinyl system as my city has a 'Vinyl Appreciation Society' ...


Fun! Great story.

Let us know what you think of the LP, especially since you have the CD.

Tried the record today...no hash though it does have a bit of what sounds like static. The sound is darker than the CD and, for the first time, it sounds like there may be more on the disk than my turntable setup can play...so I guess I'll start the vinyl tweak route.

Surprisingly, the high priced fuse in my main system does seem to have had an impact. I've spent the last few hours listening to digital with a LOT of satisfaction.

Elk
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Re: Audio Cliches

Amazing how this hobby keeps drawing one in, yes?

Where did you put the fuse(s)?

CECE
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Re: Audio Cliches

Get your money back on teh dopey fuse...how on any planet including this one whould a fuse have sound to it...that would mean it should also have video, get one of them good sounding fuses into a tv? And it will be a good looking fuse, the power of advertising on the people..get a refund, tell the store your electrons must not be set up right to get the improvement it claims.

JIMV
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Re: Audio Cliches

In my PrimaLuna amp...

JIMV
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:
Get your money back on teh dopey fuse...how on any planet including this one whould a fuse have sound to it...that would mean it should also have video, get one of them good sounding fuses into a tv? And it will be a good looking fuse, the power of advertising on the people..get a refund, tell the store your electrons must not be set up right to get the improvement it claims.

Gold instead of tin perhaps...the current passes through it. The old one looked like it cost perhaps $1...this one more. If a better electrical connection matters in a cable or interconnect, why not a fuse?

KBK
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Re: Audio Cliches

We had a big discussion on DIY audio in the John Curl 'Blowtorch' Thread, where I introduced a new way of fusing audio gear, in order to limit the effect of fuses themselves.

Elk
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Re: Audio Cliches


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In my PrimaLuna amp...


Wonderful amps!

Did you happen to discuss the fuse with Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio? He has a good set of ears and has given me great tube advice in the past. I have no idea what he thinks of fuses however.

bifcake
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:
We had a big discussion on DIY audio in the John Curl 'Blowtorch' Thread, where I introduced a new way of fusing audio gear, in order to limit the effect of fuses themselves.

It's called bypassing a fuse.

rvance
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Re: Audio Cliches

"I refuse, therefore, I am."

JIMV
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Re: Audio Cliches


Quote:

Quote:
In my PrimaLuna amp...


Wonderful amps!

Did you happen to discuss the fuse with Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio? He has a good set of ears and has given me great tube advice in the past. I have no idea what he thinks of fuses however.

No, bought it blind through Music Express. I do not want to oversell the effect. It just, along with 3 or 4 other minor tweaks I have installed of late, seems to make the music better.

Elk
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Re: Audio Cliches

I have a friend (Former Wadia engineer) that performs audio mods. He likes the after market fuses, particuarly the improvements in the low end (cleaner, tighter).

I haven't played with fuses in my system so I have no opinion.

Do you have any specific thoughts as to the improvements the fuse makes?

JIMV
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Re: Audio Cliches

Clarity and a sense of an extended high end with some improvement in the lows...I say some because my speakers limit my lows.

CECE
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Re: Audio Cliches

http://www.thecableco.com/prodImg/large/0000003496-20061103.jpg Why do they have a picture of a diode on a fuse? Ceramic fuses are designed for heat related issues, and explosion issues in certain types of equipment. UL doesn't have a rating on "audio grade" fuses, since thre is no such thing, until the ad dept came up with it, and now we have "audio grade fuses"...what a country...does teh AC power know it's audio grade power from the mains? Would this fuse make a tv look better? Or a CD player, or anything plugged into the wall, why does it make audio SOUND better, it's bizzare?

CECE
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Re: Audio Cliches

Why didn't you change the fuse holder, you didn't finish the job...it's like not done, why not put back the original fuse and see it difference, bet if you didn't know what fuse was in there you couldn't hear anything different, IMHO...or NSHO

Buddha
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Re: Audio Cliches

So, this will drive DUP mad, but I soldered the electrical wires to the back of the 400 dollar outlet I use, after I had a welder buddy weld a 3,000 dollar AC power cord into the socket.

Next, I soldered the other end of the AC cord directly to the AC input on the back of my amp.

Then, I bypassed the fuses altogether.

After that, I soldered my 4,500 dollar speaker wires directly to the outputs and also directly to the speakers.

Sounds much better, but it takes me, like, two days to switch out an amp.

As long as only turn it up to "11," I should be OK.

Guys, you haven't lived until you've gone with direct connect.

Three orders of magnitude and six veils improvement.

UL may not approve, but my ears sure do.

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