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CECE
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Are you still thinking you hear a

difference when your amp is on or off over time. Ckts in this article work from 80c to -40C...Yeah warm up your home amplifier, and you can hear teh differences. http://www.edn.com/article/CA6426879.html?nid=2431&rid=1573873752

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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a


Quote:
difference when your amp is on or off over time. Ckts in this article work from 80c to -40C...Yeah warm up your home amplifier, and you can hear teh differences. http://www.edn.com/article/CA6426879.html?nid=2431&rid=1573873752

Mine definitely sounds better "on," but I can understand how you may have difficulty discerning which way yours sounds better. If it helps, I bet yours would sound better "off."

Hope that helps!

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

I'm betting DUP can still hear his system when it's "off", kinda like the voices in his head.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

What does it matter to you, DUP, if we do? Why do you persist in this constant harangue? Don't you have bugs to kill?

mjalazard
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Many of my pieces have a "standby" setting!?! I don't know if they should sound better. Help me...I'm in Audio Purgatory! Father Wes, please forgive my ears, for they may have sinned!

CECE
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

To warm up, or not, to standby or not? These are the questions that will forever stay in your head, to haunt you, as you listen and keep asking yourself, is this gonna sound better later, or is this it? Keep thinking, thinking, pondering. IS is as good as it gets, or can it get better? Your system is optimzed or needs to warm up? I think you may need audio aspirin, audio Zoloft, the anxiety and inner thoughts and fears, it's never gonna go away. Audio fruit baskets, keep asking, are my wires broken in yet? How bout' my on/off switch itelf, is it audio grade?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

"Standby" mode and leaving equipment powered on at all times can benefit in several areas of performance despite the naysaying of our resident curmudgeon. Most especially with tubed gear, a standby mode will minimize any power up shock to the valves thus increasing tube life. While not identical in operation, transistors should find some benefit in this same concept. Anyone, even the most block headed of sorts, should realize the continual heating and cooling cycles are going to eventually wear on equipment. With his purported knowledge of professional equipment and studio situations, I'm a bit surprised DUP doesn't present this question to his pro sound buddies who typically leave many pieces of equipment powered up constantly.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Why is it that when I checked the forum this morning, there have been almost a dozen harrangues by DUP posted in the last twelve hours? How many times does he feel he must call us all stupid?

Elk
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Leaving any electrical piece powered up is always less stressful for the unit.

Circuits change with temperature, sometimes by a lot. Resistance, capacitance, other parameters are impacted. While the circuit will usually work fine at any temperature - even at the extreme ends - there is an optimal range for most pieces of audio equipment. Solid state equipment takes longer to warm up than tube. Both benefit by some warm up before they sound their best.

There are many scientific instruments that must be allowed to warm up and stabalize prior to using them as well.

CECE
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

not all If you need to burn in wires, warm up amps and Cd players, why not the outlets? Since ther are those who can hear teh sound of the outlets. Does Furutech make an outboard warmer upper? On equipment I work on, it needs temperature stabilty, due to extremely presise mechanics, and xtals that are temp sensitive, teh "D" spacing changes with temperature. It therefore has an internal heater that maintains the system inside temp at like 36.5C. All the time everytime. If these super duper amps, preamps, that sell for megabucks, and oodles and oodles of DOLLAR$. Where so friggin temp sensitive why don't the mfgs put in controllers to keep them at optimum temps. Me thinks, it's a lota hooooooie. Is that why the Chord amp never met specs, missed like 500 or so watts, it wasn't warmed up? noooooo, it was just a lousy amp. Proper electrical componets have devices that are temp stabil. This is teh 21st century, they got to make stuff real good. New materials etc. All kinds of electronics in use in adverse harsh enviorments, they just keep on going and going, but an audio device for home use needs all kinds of cushion and conditioning!!! Wake up. Back in teh days of tubes in tv's etc, stuff would drift need to warm up, the quality of components passive caps, resistors, etc have really improved, otherwise a car wouldn't work if it was too cold or too hot, yet they just work in anything ya throw at it. Maybe ya needs to buy properly made amps pre amps, that don't need to be thermally stabilized in a dream world, wher you think you can hear it.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a


Quote:
If you need to burn in wires, warm up amps and Cd players, why not the outlets?

This is why it's worthless trying to make sense of your posts, DUP. When someone points out the lack of logic in your train of thought (did I actually say that? Train of thought?), you start throwing your generic insults around at anyone involved in the discussion. We aren't discussing AC outlets, DUP. If you want to make your point regarding standby modes and leaving equipment powered up, make your point about those issues. Not about something completely tangential that popped into your skull. Give it a rest for criminey's sake!


Quote:
Maybe ya needs to buy properly made amps pre amps, that don't need to be thermally stabilized in a dream world

Maybe we do need to buy some stuff that sounds the same warm or cold, wet or dry, on or off. Any suggestions? Oh, yeah, I forgot.

CECE
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

How do modern cars function with all it's high tech digital electronics etc. under all kinds of temps, humiditys etc. ya start ya go. WHY does a SIMPLE SIMPLE audio product need all this conditioning and warm up etc...An audio amp is just a big modulated power supply!!! In a car there are digital controls, even teh newest VW's have drive by wire, steering and gas pedal, ya start the car ya drive away!! And it works, flawlessly, the car steers, it wil allow you full control of teh speed, no warm ups, start and go. audio needs all this thermal nonsense!! Why. And the car does it whether is 90 degrees ambient or 5 degrees ambient, all year long, but these high priced power supplies need all kinds of prodding and tenderness, jeeez. aare you daft?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

So, you're going to stick with something that has nothing to do with your original post, eh? Lord, this is like discussing something with a grasshopper. Ya'know, DUP, my computer puts letters on the screen even when it's first been powered up. What does that have to do with an audio system? Nothing!!!!! N-O-T-H-I-N-G!!!!! Not a single, solitary thing! And neither does this absurd misdirection toward cars!

A simple question, Dup; does your car have digital steering? If not what is your point? Other than you can't think of anything else to say when confronted with facts that disprove your ideas.

Does your car get the same mileage when it's cold as when it's warmed up? Does ambient temperature affect your car's mileage? How about humidity? No, you don't notice a difference in your car or your hifi?

Finally, why does this bother you so much?

Elk
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Audio equipment, just like cars, will "work" when cold. However, both operate much better after a warm-up.

Both also operate much better after proper break-in. Interesting with contemporary cars it is rarely the engine that needs breaking in; new cars primarily need break-in of the power train, especially the rear differential. A new set of pads and rotors also work much better after being properly set. (Most people do not know how to do this.)

Of course without a proper break-in or without being warmed up the car will move. But this isn't the same as being at its best. Same with audio equipment.

CECE
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Actaully the new VW's DO have DIGITAL steering and DIGITAL fuel control, fuel injection, digital BRAKES (ABS), traction control, etc. Checkout engine management systems, elaborate DIGITAL controllers in there, yupper, no warm ups. Digital everything actually They run on the CAN-A bus system check it out..it's not your father's VW anymore, no car is. Audi, BMW, VW and several others, drive by wire, no more power steering pumps, etc, they waste gas mileage. digital baby. yupper welcome to the 21st century. Check out the control systems in modern cars, and how it comunicates with the DIGITAL controllers...yupper. Works hot cold wet or dry, start and go, no warm up, why does a modulated power supply need to warm up, what is changing in modern STABLE components? checkout the specs for modern capacitors, resistors, sockets, everything, pretty well designed mfg'd. Can work in some pretty different enviorments, meeting SPECS. Even modern cars have DIGITAL lighting controllers for the latest LED lites. Audi R8 has DIGITAL LED headlights!!! yupper, start and go, why is audio always a different world than sane electronics? Even the key assys on new VW's are DIGITAL reading, without the key info, it no start and DIGITAL ignitions and DIGITAL radios etc etc. Even H.I.D. headlights that do warm up to full brightness, don't wait, turn on and go, they go on so fast, no warm up, turn on operate, same for audio stuff, does your optical pickup in a CD player wrm up? nothing in my stuff does, turn it on, use it, never changes sound ever, on for 4 days or 4 minutes, must be some great STABLe stuff I'd guess.

CECE
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Tires are not at max traction either when new, BUT ya just get in and go, same with brakes, new materials, just work, it's not 1961 materials anymore. The mindset of warming up audio stuff, breaking in cables etc. is pure marketing BS. there is no science that shows anything changing, only the scammers selling you the stuff, the science came from their advertising dept. Only thing maybe that has to warm up is teh water for a hot shower, but even that is already hot, ya turn on teh faucet, presto HOT water, 21st century miracles...but maybe I should allow the water to run for 1 hour to heat up the pipes to get a better shower experience? Don't think so. What kind of pour equipment do you have that you can hear a difference between whatever you decided is warmed up, to using it right after turn on? It's either super bad or laboratory grade that allows you to hear this effect, and discern it everytime. Yup, it's either the greatest set of stuff that resolves this stuff, or teh worse junk that is made with junk parts that drift as the temp changes, which is it?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a


Quote:
The mindset of warming up audio stuff, breaking in cables etc. is pure marketing BS.

And who would be doing the marketing BS? TXU Electric? Once the gear is sold the equipment manufactuers have nothing to gain by having it powered up constantly.

Just what is your attention span?

You haven't told me why this is important to you. Why do you care what my electric bill is per month? Or are we drifting again and this will turn into another rant about burn in? If so, let me know. I have far better things to do than correspond with a fool.

Elk
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a


Quote:
Tires are not at max traction either when new...


True. They need to break-in to be at their best (with one complete heat cycle). After that they need some heat in them to produce maximum traction.


Quote:
BUT ya just get in and go, same with brakes, new materials, just work, it's not 1961 materials anymore.

Sort of. They will function. But they still are better after break-in and after warming up, just like an audio system.

Every audio system I have heard "just works" upon powering up. Yet, they all sound better after a bit. Solid state tends to need a bit more warm-up then tubes.

FYI, there are many brake pads that will barely stop your car when first installed, they absolutely must be bedded (broken in) before used on the street or the track. All pads work better when warmed rather than dead cold, even the pads on a VW or Audi. Additionally, engines produce more power when warm, transmissions shift better (both manual and auto), etc.

Of course if you can't tell the difference . . .

CECE
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Don't care about your electric bill, but when you make claims and statments that warming up audio makes it better, I have to figure out how you came to this Wrong conclusion. Tube sellers would love to have you keep it on, they need replacments. Another advantage of modern science, called MOSFETS. Do you also let your Tt platter spin for hours before playing a record, mechanical things needs to be done that right? And the electronic controller too. My TT doesn't neither does it's controller.

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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Pads and tires made for street use, don't need any pre heating. Race track vehicles use entirely differetn pad materials, using race stuff on street vehicles is downright DUMB and dangerous. As many race type pads won't stop under normal street driving they work when they are hotter than any street pad will ever get. since they are made to stop cars going continually over 110MPH etc. Do you think LeMans or NASCAR use the same stuff you have on your car? Even an RS6 which is like RS4 basically street legal race cars!! BUT, they have street purpose equipment, better than anything else outthere but still designed for street use, not tracks. Home audio equipment is not lab grade analytical stuff, it's consumer audio, no heating required. If you hear a difference, it's either a DEFECTIVE component, imaginary, or self delusion. Do I have to pre heat my CD/DVD recorders also? Home audio, not laboratory CALIBRATED equipment. Esssh, even calibrated FLUKE test equipment ya turn it on, it reads exactly the same everytime, modern componets inside, very stable very reliabil. this is not 1961 duMont/Emerson tv time, where each time it turned on, it drifted and looked different or didn't even receive a signal until it warmed up. 21st century, things have gotten better. Even though a few wanna live like it's 1995. Or those that wanna convince themself=ves and others, LP's are still better. Not when it taks $100K to play em, that means LP's are a dead medium. Promoted by those with either bad ears or a self gain that we don't know about money wise, etc.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

If you don't care about my electric bill, why did you start this thread? I never made any claims and I don't recall anyone on this forum making claims. What I recall is you calling all of us stupid because we don't agree with you. Why? Just tell me why? You post a link to someone who agrees with you and we are supposed to alter our thoughts and beliefs to accomodate you. What does it matter to you if I think my system sounds better on the East wall than on the West wall or whther I keep my equipment running or unplug it from the wall? What?! Why does anything I do or think bother you if I'm not insisting you do the same (as someone here keeps demanding of others)? Why don't you finally give it a rest? How many of your posts have been made expressly to contradict what someone here has said or might believe? What I do or think is none of your business and I truly resent your intrusions into this forum to tell me I'm not in line with your belief systems. Either play nicely with the rest of the class or get out!

I knew confusing him with facts was worthless. He's made up his mind and can only argue one point. His. This forum is becoming more and more useless with dup's constant banging of everyone and everything.

Jeff Wong
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Jan - It doesn't look like he's going away any time soon. DUP is like a Herpes Simplex 2* virus buried in the spine of the forum. Maybe it's time to make use of the "Ignore this user" feature and think of it as your VALTREX.

*DUPlex?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

I have but this thread caught my attention for some reason. I knew I was sticking my head in the fan blade, but I hoped for the best and just got dup'd.

I would take Herpes over dup. At least herpes goes away every now and then.

Elk
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a


Quote:
Pads and tires made for street use, don't need any pre heating.


Street pads and tires don't need to be "preheated" but they do work better with some heat in them. It's just basic materials science.

Just like audio equipment which works better with a little "preheating" - perhaps a half hour for solid state, less for tubes. After this some equipment can continute to improve for a while but most of the benefit of warming up the equipment is already realized after a hlf hour or so.


Quote:
As many race type pads won't stop under normal street driving they work when they are hotter than any street pad will ever get.


Do you just make this stuff up?

This isn't true in either respect, although the highest torque of a race pad is typically generated at a higher temperature than the average temperature that a street pad will see.

Every race pad will stop a car when cold. If it didn't, the car would go off the track at the first corner. In fact, many stone cold race pads will generate more torque than a hot street pad. They typically generate even more torgue with more heat. Some however have less bite when warm to make them easier to modulate.

There is a lot of overlap between street and race pads, especially between street cars and certain forms of racing such as NASCAR. The pads NASCAR uses are a blast on the street, but they squeal, eat rotors and dust a lot.


Quote:
Do you think LeMans or NASCAR use the same stuff you have on your car?


Actually its closer than one might expect, especially depending on which of my personal cars we are discussing. NASCAR pads in particular are not that exotic. However, I will agree that street pads have nothing to do with Formula 1 technology however.


Quote:
Even an RS6 which is like RS4 basically street legal race cars!!


Oh, please! <roll eyes> They are cute sporty sedans, but have nothing to do with race cars. Reality check. A little Formula Ford will waste either on the track in the twisties

Unfortunately we can't get Audi drivers out on open track days to see what they can do as sporty sedans either. BMW's yes. Audis, very rarely. Only one RS4 (a pretty blue) in a whole season of instructing last year. Oh well...

Now back to audio: don't warm up your equipment if you can't tell any difference. The rest of us don't care if this is your choice. So why are you trying to convince us that we don't hear what we hear?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a


Quote:
Do you just make this stuff up?

Usually.


Quote:
So why are you trying to convince us that we don't hear what we hear?

Best I can figure, because he's dup; it's what he does. If he can't hear it, no one else should be allowed to even think they can. I've never received an answer to the same question.

CECE
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

My hearing is very acute. To my own amazement it has been verified in Pro audio publications. Where they (people in the pro sound industry) seem to think some live sound places sound as good as I thought at the time. The sound dude/company got accolades for it's great sound. I know what I hear, and obviously sound people in the business know good sound when it's heard. I stand by my opions. I'll admit, i cannot hear outlets, demagnetized plastics,or PTFE or PVC. I bet I'm with teh majority of people who also listen for a living in pro installations. Even Rev Horton Heat, hears what I hear at live events, when he discusses the BAD sound at so many places. Yes, so many bad, so few good. BUT the good ones do sound GOOD. AND it's easy to hear. Checkout Rev Horton Heat on myspace, he has a blog about LIVE BAD sound, and how it's the nudnicks behind the controls ruining the sound, not the equipment, not wires, not outlets, simple poor settings made by people. Ya need to spend more time at live events to get an idea what sounds good and what sounds bad. And what don't sound at all, outlets, wires etc.

Elk
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a


Quote:
...LIVE BAD sound, and how it's the nudnicks behind the controls ruining the sound, not the equipment, not wires, not outlets, simple poor settings made by people.

It isn't hard for most to hear the difference between good and bad live sound reinforcement. The hard part is making the right changes to improve the sound.

The other hard part is convincing the people that own the venue and the guys running the PA's that it matters, but this is an entirely different issue. Live sound is improving however.

One thing to keep in mind however: sound reinforcement and high end home audio reproduction are entirely different creatures, apples and oranges. Live sound is not concerned with subtlety; if the sound is clear, non-muddy, clean and has decent balance the sound tech has done a great job (and it is a hard one which requires skill). It's near impossible to hear any difference between reinforcement amps, there is no way that one is going to hear the differences between cables in a live sound setup or whether the amps have had a chance to warm up.

Where good live sound ends is just the bare bones basics and merely the starting point for home audio. We demand much, much more. For example, in live sound the room in which it is playing is the ambience, there is nothing ambient to capture or reproduce. In home audio, the delicate job of reproducing the room itself is critical.

A recording of a rock power trio will sound decent through a good live sound setup - but a string quartet or acoustic jazz ensemble will sound merely acceptable at best. This doesn't mean that the live sound setup is bad, just that it has a very different job to do.

Jackhammer vs. scalpel: both great tools but hardly interchangeable.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a


Quote:
... and obviously sound people in the business know good sound when it's heard.

Then you go on to undermine that very statement by sending us to read about all the bad sounding places where the technician doesn't know what sounds good.

And your inference is still you know what sounds good and we don't. Because a magazine has stated a venue you like has good sound proves what? I've disagreed with many articles about many opinions. Finding someone who only agrees with your opinion is bigotted, dup. You wouldn't want to be bigotted; would you?

dup, has it even occurred to you that if your reference is a venue where the sound quality is dependent on the amplification and speakers that are required by high decibel music production, you might not be in sync with many of the members of this forum who listen to music that is not amplified? Or that your constant exposure to such venues might be the reason you cannot hear certain things at this time in your life? Has it ever crossed your mind that because you cannot detect something, that does not prove it doesn't exist? And you really shouldn't be diparaging someone for what they believe. Just roll you eyes ocassionally like the rest of us and turn the damn page! You wear me out, dup.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Dup, why don't you just settle back and assume all of us have equal and unique powers of perception? What one person hears might not be the same as another listener but that does not make one listener superior or the other inferior. We gather here to learn from one another and not to constantly berate the abilites of any other member of the forum. If you wish to return to the foundations of Stereophile, that is how I perceive the original lesson to be learned from JGH. If you would rather proceed with the idea that you and you alone hold the keys to good sound, please, start your own magazine and forum.

martin_n
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

I believe that this comes down to how an amplifiers been designed.
In the general case when an amplifier is switched on, the major thing affecting its electrical performance with a transient time dependency is the (passive) bias on the output devices. This usually takes a few minutes to settle to say 90% of their final quiescent value as the system arrives at its steady state temperature.
However as the signal power through the amp is then varied, then so does the bias! Putting the amp on standby will do what? Switch off the output devices? In which case you

Elk
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Martin,

How long, on average, does it take for the bias on the amp's output devices to reach its final quiescent value?

How does the difference in bias affect the sound during the warm-up period?

Any generalized differences between tubes and solid state in this regard? (I ask as tube equipment appears to warm up much faster in my experience where solid state can take longer. I find that a lot of solid state equipment needs a good half hour before it really sounds its best, and can sound a bit harsh and thin prior to this.)

martin_n
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a


Quote:

How long, on average, does it take for the bias on the amp's output devices to reach its final quiescent value?


When I was at college we were always told to give the lab equipment about 20mins to warm up. If you have a look at JA

Elk
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Very helpful and practical.

What you are stating matches my experience that solid state needs about a half hour, but tube equipment is quicker to warm up.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

I would disagree here. The core and windings of the tube amp's transformers will require much longer to fully warm than any solid state amplifier's heatsinks.

Elk
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

Big tube transformers do take longer to warm up, no disagreement here. I find however that the sound of a cold tube amp/preamp does not suffer as much as a cold solid state amp. In my experience tube equipment sounds pretty good even upon startup, but some solid state equipment sounds pretty bad for the first half hour or so. Both improve upon warm up however.

Is your experience different?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Are you still thinking you hear a

I would say it depends on the amplifiers in question. If the amp is a solid state unit I probably won't like when it is warm, then it will sound much worse when cold. Most well built tube amps don't suffer that extreme of bad sound, though they can sound like they are trying to get out of bed on a cold morning. If the solid state amp is one I will enjoy when it is fully warmed, say a Rowland, then I can usually find the value in its performance stone cold out of the box far more readily than I can a cold tube amp that requires run in time.

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