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ncdrawl
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am I missing something

so , Fremer reviews a pair of amps and states that 25,000.00 is a hideous price.

I guess paying 100 grand for a record player is kosher, then?

now that theres funny...! Keep it up, Stereophile. Yall make me laugh, and that alone is worth the subscription.

AeWingnut
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Re: am I missing something

not the same thing but it is to me

I had to special order my receiver, DVD-Bluray and Universal players. He charged me list on everything and I ordered over $5k of stuff along with HDMI cables (also full price)

now, I am sitting here feeling totally screwed and wondering

can I ever enjoy this system or will I always think of how the dealer screwed me. His argument was that he would match anyone's price within 50 miles. So... I should travel 3 hours ? I made a down payment maybe I should sacrifice it.

anyway.. does a system sound better if it was a good deal?

mrlowry
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Re: am I missing something

How did the dealer "screw" you if he delivers the products that he ordered and lives up to any agreements that he has made then he has fulfilled his part of the transaction. You had a right to ask for a discount at the beginning of the transaction. I don't mean this in a confrontational way but why do you feel that you are entitled to a discount?

JIMV
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Re: am I missing something

Agreed. If one entered into a contract to buy/sell product as a certain price and no fraud was involved, then the deal stands and either side changing it is in error and acting immorally.

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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
Agreed. If one entered into a contract to buy/sell product as a certain price and no fraud was involved, then the deal stands and either side changing it is in error and acting immorally.

I wouldn't think a decision to try to renegociate is 'immoral.'

Talk to your dealer. Tell him that as you've learned more, you don't feel as good about the transaction as you would like.

However, that being said, I do think you are immoral (or worse) if you drive on the open road and take 3 hours to cover 50 stinkin' miles!

You deserve to pay retail if you drive like that!

AeWingnut
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Re: am I missing something

I guess I should have just orderd everything online instead of supporitng a local dealer. I have no one to blame than myself for agreeing to the price. I didn't do enough research. My fault... I can't say it enough. I just feel like with the mark up he got greedy especially for the cables that I could have ordered online for 40% less.

Now I understand why no one else was shopping the whole time I was there.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread

my real point was

Does a system sound better when you get a deal.
for example

I love the way these $600 speakers sound versus
For $5k I expect more and left somewhat unsatisfied with the sound

was my thought process

AeWingnut
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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
However, that being said, I do think you are immoral (or worse) if you drive on the open road and take 3 hours to cover 50 stinkin' miles!

You deserve to pay retail if you drive like that!

I would deserve to be euthanized if I took 3 hours to go 50 miles. I meant that he said he would match any price within 50 miles. There is no where within 50 miles. I would have to drive 200 miles for another dealer.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

my thing is... how can you call 25 grand for a pair of monoblocs hideous... and at the same time, own a 100,000.00 glorified record player? that seems really strange to me.

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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
my thing is... how can you call 25 grand for a pair of monoblocs hideous... and at the same time, own a 100,000.00 glorified record player? that seems really strange to me.

I can't fathom paying $25k so $100,000 is beyond comprehension.

Maybe the $25,000 mono blocks only have $2,500 worth of parts in them and sound like it.

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something

Hey, guys, have you ever considered taking up a new hobby? Maybe something like watching Popsicles melt? Though you'd probably figure you got screwed when you discovered the "parts" were just water, sugar and coloring and you just get to keep the stick.

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
Does a system sound better when you get a deal.
for example

You are experiencing buyer's remorse; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyer's_remorse

You dropped a chunk o'change and now you are having doubts. Very common. But, on the other hand, you agreed to the deal. How would you feel if the dealer tried to welch on the agreement after promising this amount of dollars will get you this product? If the dealer doesn't live up to the agreement, then you have a reason to be upset. If the dealer delivers as promised, then you should be happy with what you agreed to own. You made the agreement in good faith, don't go back on that now.

Dealers take a bad rap whenever it comes to pricing. I'm not going to get into another debate about how delaers operate and how you should treat dealers when they are offering a product you do not need but you do desire. The dealer/client pact is a two way street where both need to respect the other participant. If you screw the dealer now, you'll never be trusted by that dealer again and you may find yourself driving 50 miles every time you want to buy a new product. If the dealer has screwed you - in reality, not in your imagination - then you should find another dealer even if you have to drive 50 miles to do so. Support the good dealers who are trying to make a decent living and ignore the dealers who aren't worth supporting.

That said, this is roughly how I explained the concept of the "deal" to prospective clients. Your task is to choose components you believe you will be happy owning for many years to come. While I can direct your attention to certain products, I cannot make the decision for you, your ears must decide what you like and what you will feel satisfied owning. If you've done that and you are happy with your decision - you've stayed within your budget, you've listened and chosen wisely, you've shopped for the best product(s) you can find within reason and so forth, then you should be happy with your purchase and not be concerned with the "deal". The deal will take care of itself.

Too many people confuse a bargain with a deal. Give someone a few bucks off or a few percentage points off and that is likely to be a bargain, Best Buy and Circuit City are full of them as are the GM dealers. Buy something you can enjoy for years to come without constantly thinking of the price and you'll have a deal. If, while you listen, you can only think of how much you paid and not how much you enjoy what you own, then you should have shopped for a bargain, most high end dealers have this sort of product to satisfy a certain type of client. If the price is bothering you that much, ask the dealer what they sell that has a big discount built in. Then listen to that system. You decide which you prefer. If in six weeks, six months or six years, you feel you got a good deal, then you did, no matter how much you paid.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

negative, Jan. I love the hobby, I love sound, music. I began singing bass at age 11(I am a Basso "Profundo"), and have been involved in various aspects of music production my entire life, from being a professional singer to helming my remote recording business and all points in between. I cannot imagine being involved in anything else. Music is my life.

BUT this hobby is rife with bullshit and bullshitters, frauds, an overwhelming number of folks with more money than sense, and plenty of voodoo.. that doesnt mean I hate the hobby, or that I want to leave it... I just call it as I see it, friend.

Hell, my entire system is only around 40 grand or so, and I feel like a piece of shit for having it when there are people that cant fucking eat in this country. I cannot imagine owning a single piece in the triple digits. Id hang myself.

anyway, how can a TT costing 100 grand avoid comments about being overpriced while a pair of amps costing a quarter the price get called expensive??

are we in some sort of 5th dimension?


Quote:
Hey, guys, have you ever considered taking up a new hobby? Maybe something like watching Popsicles melt? Though you'd probably figure you got screwed when you discovered the "parts" were just water, sugar and coloring and you just get to keep the stick.

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something

Are you asking me to defend what Fremer writes? I can defend what I write, everyone else is one their own. A few months back I saw Fremer say he was too easily satisfied. I laughed at that one too.

However, I don't know what any of this has to do with the cost of parts. If someone wants to charge $100-150k for their turntable, that's their business and it's Fremer's business if he is so easily satisfied he needs one.

I disagree this hobby is fraught with snake oil. But that's another few hundred threads and more negativity on the Stereophile forum. Oh, Boy, what fun that should be!

You can see the hobby as fraught with people with more money that sense - it's a common argument about the excesses of the wealthy - but what luxury item market doesn't operate in the same fashion? Does John McCain need seven houses and thirteen cars? Does Bill Clinton need a tax break? Can anyone survive on a mere $1,500,00 a year?

What's the point of discussing it again? Calling people fools just because you disagree with how they live their life is impolite and isn't going to change their behavior. If you wish to change them, you'll have to talk to them, not me and not the Stereophile forum. If you don't wish to change them - merely have a laugh at their expense, then stop discussing how they live and what they do. It's their money and at the moment we live in a trickle down economy that takes their dollars and uses them to feed a high end boat salesperson's family who clothes the organic lettuce grower's family who provides sustenance for the vineyard owner and so on and so on and so on.

I suppose it's good that you realize how absurd it is to spend $40k for a system while others starve, go without adequate shelter or lack affordable health care. It's good to know you'd hang yourself if you considered a $100k table but you're OK with $10k CD player. But how much you have spent on your system isn't the issue and doesn't interest or impress me. I've known enough people who've spent lots more. And I've seen people get outstanding results on a far lighter budget. Ultimately, what matters is what you do about the people who are starving, freezing and suffering from a cureable disease they cannot afford to treat. When you've stared into the eyes of someone who doesn't have two nickles to rub together or doesn't know where their next meal will come from and then you've done something about it, then you can say what you will about the high cost of luxury items and the emptiness of people who ignore the plight of others. Until then, if your comments aren't about that emptiness and unless you know how Fremer distributes his money, so what if he isn't consistent with his toys?

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

Ive done some(though not nearly enough, i am afraid) to help folks less well off than I am. That is not the point, nor is the cost of my system the point(I am actually ashamed, not bragging.. though I do feel a bit better having "downgraded" my system quite a bit to live more frugally)

the point is.. how can a person that drops 100 grand on a table call 25,000.00 for another component expensive??

I dont get it.

and ive stared plenty of unfortunate folks in the face both here in the US and during my time in Iraq, Afghanistan and other US Areas of Operation... actually those experiences were catalysts for major changes in my life. Living with less frivolous "luxury" items is one of those changes.

and again, Jan.. if you percieve my complaining to be so redundant, is the fact that you respond with complaints adding insult to injury? If you dont like seeing folks complain, or question the status quo, May I suggest that you go live in a hut in New Guinea or maybe Darfur? I aint the first, and I wont be the last. I have the right to post as I choose, and I will do just that.

bis morgen..

JIMV
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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
Does a system sound better when you get a deal.
for example

I love the way these $600 speakers sound versus
For $5k I expect more and left somewhat unsatisfied with the sound

was my thought process

Interestign question. I just bought a Benchmark DAC1 on an E-bay auction. I was thrilled with my initial bid but figure I paid to much for the win. The DAC will sound exactly the same regardless. So far my listening has found the junky Philips DVD player/DAC1 combo is not as musical as my 8 year old Adcom 750 CD player. I have shipped he used DAC to Benchmark for updating (a VERY good company to deal with) and will try the unit with another old CD player as a transport when it gets back. It does leave me questioning the idea that the quality of the data stream into the DAC should not matter as some have noted when discussing music servers. The DAC1, though used, is both newer and much more highly reviewed than was my old Adcom CD player, but sounds worse so far in my setup.

Getting back to your question, I always think product I have gotten a deal on sounds better than gear I have paid top dollar for, though I am sure it is not the case.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

how about a new thread for "does the system sound better when you get a deal" as it has little to do with what I posted.

Buddha
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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
how about a new thread for "does the system sound better when you get a deal" as it has little to do with what I posted.

Hey, aren't you the guy who, just one or two posts up the page, said, "I have the right to post as I choose, and I will do just that."

I guess that's not a two way street, eh?

Just a little mission creep going on. It's SOP.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

sure, it is a two way street... but it is the individuals responsibility to stay on topic at least, which I do. that is sort of a rule isnt it, to stick to the topic?

outside of the staying on topic thing, I dont care what anyone posts.

I dont know what a mission creep is, but ok.


Quote:

Quote:
how about a new thread for "does the system sound better when you get a deal" as it has little to do with what I posted.

Hey, aren't you the guy who, just one or two posts up the page, said, "I have the right to post as I choose, and I will do just that."

I guess that's not a two way street, eh?

Just a little mission creep going on. It's SOP.

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
If you dont like seeing folks complain, or question the status quo, May I suggest that you go live in a hut in New Guinea or maybe Darfur? I aint the first, and I wont be the last. I have the right to post as I choose, and I will do just that.

Darfur?! I'm supposed to go live in a hut in Darfur because I'm tired of the incessant negativity of this forum when it comes to the high end products that exist in this hobby? What is this? A one upsmanship on where you've been stationed and who you've been forced to confront? C'mon, read what you posted. Even you must see the absurdity in your reaction.

Or, maybe you don't. Maybe that's just how your react to any challenge. What else is new on this forum?

Fremer is Fremer and if you find him annoying, stop reading his columns. If you find him amusing, then OK, he's not the only guy who has priorities that are not similar to your own. Yeah, his stuff doesn't always make sense as we have both pointed out. But to get from there to me living in Darfur?!

Just because you can post something doesn't mean it needs posting. How about the old saw of changing what you can change and recognizing the difference between that and everything else.

You're getting your testosterone up for no good reason. How about I just give a homeless person a few bucks for a meal and be thankful I'm not in that situation? That would benefit him and me.

Darfur! Sheeeeesh!

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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
The DAC1, though used, is both newer and much more highly reviewed than was my old Adcom CD player, but sounds worse so far in my setup.

Which leaves me scratching my head as to why you would invest additional money to upgrade a unit that sounds worse...so far. Despite being highly reviewed did the thought that perhaps you don't like the sound of the Benchmark ever cross your mind? There are numerous user reports to be found on the internet of folks who do not like the sound of the Benchmark.

Just curious?

RG

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Re: am I missing something


Quote:

Quote:
The DAC1, though used, is both newer and much more highly reviewed than was my old Adcom CD player, but sounds worse so far in my setup.

Which leaves me scratching my head as to why you would invest additional money to upgrade a unit that sounds worse...so far. Despite being highly reviewed did the thought that perhaps you don't like the sound of the Benchmark ever cross your mind? There are numerous user reports to be found on the internet of folks who do not like the sound of the Benchmark.

Just curious?

RG

Can I blame a 6 year old DAC for not sounding at its best when hooked up to CD sources that are little better than junk? All I was noting was that a very well regarded DAC of ancient age used with a cobled together system does not sound as good as my 8 year old stand alone unit. I will know far more then I get the DAC back updated, hooked into a better transport and using cables of similiar quality to the rest of my system. If it still sounds worse than my old CD player.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

cough..new thread cough

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
The DAC1, though used, is both newer and much more highly reviewed than was my old Adcom CD player, but sounds worse so far in my setup.

Which leaves me scratching my head as to why you would invest additional money to upgrade a unit that sounds worse...so far. Despite being highly reviewed did the thought that perhaps you don't like the sound of the Benchmark ever cross your mind? There are numerous user reports to be found on the internet of folks who do not like the sound of the Benchmark.

Just curious?

RG

Can I blame a 6 year old DAC for not sounding at its best when hooked up to CD sources that are little better than junk? All I was noting was that a very well regarded DAC of ancient age used with a cobled together system does not sound as good as my 8 year old stand alone unit. I will know far more then I get the DAC back updated, hooked into a better transport and using cables of similiar quality to the rest of my system. If it still sounds worse than my old CD player.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

Jan, my testosterone isnt up, bud. You do remind me of my cranky old neighbors who scorn anyone that comes within 5 feet of their yard, though. you complaining about the negativity of the forum aint gonna make everything sunshine and roses. As for your advice about skipping fremers column, why would I? sometimes he writes things that are ok, that I agree with... but I fail to see why, if all these negative comments bother you as much as you claim, do you keep posting in the threads or reading them, Jan? The negative reactions will continue as long as this hobby is around. .actually, let me take that back.. I dont see the comments as negative. Theres not a thing wrong with questioning that which I do not understand, Jan. I am here to stay, unless I get banned for questioning the status quo, in which case I will just find a new ID and post again.. So get used to it,friend.

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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
cough..new thread cough

I do hope you had your head turned to the left when doing that, otherwise we

BillB
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Re: am I missing something

I think this is on-topic:

YES, it IS ridiculous if Fremer says $25K for amps is hideous, given his tolerance for even more hideous prices.

I think some critics should spend a month or two confined to systems worth, say, $500. To be reminded that music can sound good on those too.

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something

You're a charmer you are. Now you need to get over yourself. This is not miniature golf.

You don't seem to be taking the time to realize you and I agree about Fremer. He is not consistent and his inconsistency can give one pause.

'Nuff said!

So why say more?

This doesn't have to be a struggle unless you choose to make it into one.

Have a nice day and see you in Darfur.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

Its all cool man. I was just hoping someone would chime in with some sort of reasoning to help me understand Mr. Fremer better... at any rate, thanks for the comments.


Quote:

Quote:
cough..new thread cough

I do hope you had your head turned to the left when doing that, otherwise we

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

Thank allah, someone else thinks it is crazy. im nae alone.

agree with you on the 500 buck quota too.


Quote:
I think this is on-topic:

YES, it IS ridiculous if Fremer says $25K for amps is hideous, given his tolerance for even more hideous prices.

I think some critics should spend a month or two confined to systems worth, say, $500. To be reminded that music can sound good on those too.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

good, because I suck at golf. Thanks for calling me a charmer. I came by it honest, being a southern boy and all.

You see Mr. Vigne, I cannot get over myself. I am an Alpha Male. What you are asking is akin to asking A Muslim to eat pork. not possible.


Quote:
You're a charmer you are. Now you need to get over yourself. This is not miniature golf.

You don't seem to be taking the time to realize you and I agree about Fremer. He is not consistent and his inconsistency can give one pause.

'Nuff said!

So why say more?

This doesn't have to be a struggle unless you choose to make it into one.

Have a nice day and see you in Darfur.

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
You see Mr. Vigne, I cannot get over myself. I am an Alpha Male.

So what? That gives you license to get pissed at every response that doesn't suit your notions? It's a forum, friend, not everyone is going to agree with you all the time. Put the hair on your back down and don't go telling people to move to Darfur. We really don't need any more Alpha Males around here. If that's the only way you know how to operate there must be an Alpha Male forum somewhere else on the web, you could get your testosterone checked over there.

Sheeeeesh!

Buddha
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Re: am I missing something

Hey, this thread is about trashing Fremer.

Fighting is off topic.

<cough> Start a seperate fight thread <cough>

Doesn't logging on to the internet automatically turn everyone with a "Y" chromosome into an 'alpha male?'

I'd send you guys off to Fight Club Forum, but the first rule of Fight Club Forum forbids me from telling you about it.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

Buddha,
I started this thread, and as such I am calling the rule that I can deviate, but noone else canm . .. anyway, if you cant beat em, join em, hell. i do wish Fremer would chime in.. though I suspect he wont.

Vigne.... dude, you need to seriously relax. Youd be awful fun to pick on if I were that type, as you seem to be hypersensitive, and lack a sense of humour... i was kidding about the AM thing, for fucks sake. quit being so uptight and crotchety.

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
i was kidding about the AM thing, for fucks sake.

Yeah, why didn't I get the "move to a hut in Darfur" line was the set up for the joke? For fuck's sake!

A charmer indeed.

dbowker
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Re: am I missing something

"anyway, how can a TT costing 100 grand avoid comments about being overpriced while a pair of amps costing a quarter the price get called expensive??"

Partly it's because he actually bought said $100k 'table and loves it more than (insert noun here).

The price thing, although I am right there with you that any of that gear seems outrageous on a number of levels, a lot of it's just the low numbers of production that amount to one-ff like manufacturing. Same as Rolls Royce cars- sure they're good, but not THAT good. It's just they are made by hand and take a year or whatever, and have the whole mystic around them. Henry Ford would just call it inefficient.

Silicon Graphics used to make these kick-ass workstations for the animation and film industries- it was as hand made as you could get for a computer and it cost about $30k just for starters (in the early 90s). Then they partnered with Nintendo to make the Nintendo 64, which could run graphics even faster than some of their workstations for a mere $200 bucks! Of course they sold more in the first month than SGI sold in a couple years!

If the market was out there I bet you could get the Caliburn down to less than $10k. Not cheap, but doable for the upper middle class audio addict. Trouble is, the market isn't out there even for that.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

interesting , dbowker... I wonder if the very same table were priced at 10,000.00 rather than 100 thousand , if Fremer would say the same things about it, or own it?


Quote:
"anyway, how can a TT costing 100 grand avoid comments about being overpriced while a pair of amps costing a quarter the price get called expensive??"

Partly it's because he actually bought said $100k 'table and loves it more than (insert noun here).

The price thing, although I am right there with you that any of that gear seems outrageous on a number of levels, a lot of it's just the low numbers of production that amount to one-ff like manufacturing. Same as Rolls Royce cars- sure they're good, but not THAT good. It's just they are made by hand and take a year or whatever, and have the whole mystic around them. Henry Ford would just call it inefficient.

Silicon Graphics used to make these kick-ass workstations for the animation and film industries- it was as hand made as you could get for a computer and it cost about $30k just for starters (in the early 90s). Then they partnered with Nintendo to make the Nintendo 64, which could run graphics even faster than some of their workstations for a mere $200 bucks! Of course they sold more in the first month than SGI sold in a couple years!

If the market was out there I bet you could get the Caliburn down to less than $10k. Not cheap, but doable for the upper middle class audio addict. Trouble is, the market isn't out there even for that.

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something

Sorry to be a stick in the mud but that takes us off topic again. Not to say your point is invalid - it's true for the most part and a good example of market forces working to lower prices - but it is not within the bounds of this thread. To go where you have led is to take yet another worn down, deeply rutted path where we rehash the Chinese manufacturing process and the manipulation of currency against the greed of American companies and the devaluation of the American consumer, a cash based vs. a credit based economy, the soft product of a rising stock market vs. the hard value of a manufacturing work force, the worth of "hand built" products vs. the precision of computer aided assembly, the essential "cost" of any one item when the real value of the manufacturing process and not just the assemblage of parts are factored in, whether Sarah Palin's seven year old daughter should have been carrying a Louis Vuitton handbag while her mother preached pulling oneself up by your own bootstraps, etc.

The topic of the thread is MF's inconsistency and none of the above. Nor is the topic the high price of certain components or whether getting a "deal" makes your system sound better.

To restart the debate over the price of certain products is to simply rehash what has been talked to death on this forum. To discuss whether getting a deal makes your system sound better, ... well, we all know where that will lead.

To begin again with topics that cannot be discused too little should be the province of a new thread, if done at all.

This is a bash Fremer thread and should remain so until he has split open, his sweet candy innards have hit the ground, been devoured and we have made ourself sick of it once and for all.

JIMV
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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
The price thing, although I am right there with you that any of that gear seems outrageous on a number of levels, a lot of it's just the low numbers of production that amount to one-ff like manufacturing.

That is a problem with the review criteria. They insist on a certain number of distributers but do not consider the actual number of units sold...in the case of the 100K turntable, probably less than the number of dealers.

We read reviews of gear that is more rare than an undiscovered Egptian tomb!

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

would fremer enjoy it as much if it were the same table, but 10,000.00 instead of 100? would it still get the praise?

answer me that, you crotchety old bugger.


Quote:
Sorry to be a stick in the mud but that takes us off topic again. Not to say your point is invalid - it's true for the most part and a good example of market forces working to lower prices - but it is not within the bounds of this thread. To go where you have led is to take yet another worn down, deeply rutted path where we rehash the Chinese manufacturing process and the manipulation of currency against the greed of American companies and the devaluation of the American consumer, a cash based vs. a credit based economy, the soft product of a rising stock market vs. the hard value of a manufacturing work force, the worth of "hand built" products vs. the precision of computer aided assembly, the essential "cost" of any one item when the real value of the manufacturing process and not just the assemblage of parts are factored in, whether Sarah Palin's seven year old daughter should have been carrying a Louis Vuitton handbag while her mother preached pulling oneself up by your own bootstraps, etc.

The topic of the thread is MF's inconsistency and none of the above. Nor is the topic the high price of certain components or whether getting a "deal" makes your system sound better.

To restart the debate over the price of certain products is to simply rehash what has been talked to death on this forum. To discuss whether getting a deal makes your system sound better, ... well, we all know where that will lead.

To begin again with topics that cannot be discused too little should be the province of a new thread, if done at all.

This is a bash Fremer thread and should remain so until he has split open, his sweet candy innards have hit the ground, been devoured and we have made ourself sick of it once and for all.

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Re: am I missing something

I'm trying to get a better feel about this issue.

In a given year, how many components do you guys buy?

For me, it's around one.

So, for me, anything Stereophile reviews that is not of the budget or the type of piece I am shopping is 'wasted' material.

Yet, I read it completely each month.

(I don't even approve of the Recommended Components list, but I can get how there are consumers who need external validation like that. We see it in the wine hobby, too.)

For the gear that I'm not in the market for, I still enjoy reading about other gear at all price points. It gives me ideas about what's out there, and what may or may not apply to me at some point.

I don't see the gripe.

There are things that cost 100K that may feel like they offer value, and products at 60 bucks that don't.

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something

I think you misunderestimate the number of people who would own a $100k turntable just because it's there and they can. Such a product has value to the person who might never actually use it for its intended purpose.

My question would be, if you have $200k invested in your analog rig, do you still rummage through the used LP's at the Salvation Army and at yard sales looking for a steal on a Living Presence or a Shaded Dog in good condition? At that point would spending $1 on a used LP be hypocritical?

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Re: am I missing something


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I think you misunderestimate the number of people who would own a $100k turntable just because it's there and they can. Such a product has value to the person who might never actually use it for its intended purpose.

My question would be, if you have $200k invested in your analog rig, do you still rummage through the used LP's at the Salvation Army and at yard sales looking for a steal on a Living Presence or a Shaded Dog in good condition? At that point would spending $1 on a used LP be hypocritical?

I have posted that I do not buy into the vinyl is better than digital line. Perhaps it is because I have never heard a vinyl rig that was or perhaps because I cannot get past vinyl's many flaws. I own a turntable setup to listen to those ancient records that do not exist in CD form. Paying such absurd amounts of money for any gear is simply madness.

That said, folk with more money than brains can still (until the socialists legislate the right away) spend their money in whatever manner they desire.

My problem is not with the existence of such gear, nor in the existance of folk buying it, but in the absolute rarity of such things and the preference to review the unobtainably rare over stuff that can be found on the shelf in decent stores and in more than one or two readers homes. Aside from a dozen really rich folk, who is ever going to own, or see, or hear the turntable discussed?

No one. The magazine has a pretty good policy of insuring the stuff they review is available from at least some small number of dealers but they forget that this does not tell the real story. How many stores sell the thing is less improtant than how many are actually sold.

IMHO.

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
would fremer enjoy it as much if it were the same table, but 10,000.00 instead of 100? would it still get the praise?

answer me that, you crotchety old bugger.

Would the world be a different place had one Supreme Court Justice not believed G.W. Bush would run a humble foreign policy? Your question is far more hypothetical than mine. The Caliburn is not $10k and never will be. If you took Fremer seriously, which you obviously do not, you would get his opinion of "affordable" products. Instead you choose the easy route to making yourself feel superior to another human being.

Whatever!!!

Your question does lay bare your too easy approach to the sort of cynicism that has pervaded this forum for years. You don't even get the pinnata reference, do you? Fremer is an easy target, a paper maiche whipping boy lowered to within reach of every two year old with a stick - or in this case a keyboard. You don't see the hyprocisy of not hanging yourself over a $10k CD player while others starve and you, by your own admission, haven't done enough to assist them and help them out of their plight. But you can attack a high priced turntable and the person who owns it!

You don't see the hyprocrisy of "downsizing" to a $40k system while complaining how others spend their money? I suppose the idea of some youngster learning to play a single stringed cigar box so they are not faced with a life where cotton fields and tobacco farms are their only available future doesn't cross your mind as you choose which of your three systems you'll listen to.

If this thread is about Fremer's inconsistencies, then, fine, I'll play along and even agree from time to time. If this is once again about whacking a stationary target, then why don't we all look into our own cycnical views of this hobby? Why don't we do that before we take the first whack at the pinatta? Cynicism is too easy, that's what makes it so popular for the rattling masses.

You don't have a clue how Fremer spends his non-audio income. So what exactly are you bitching about? Do you seriously think most people on the face of this Earth when eyeing your audio expenditures wouldn't think you just as foolish as Fremer? How many speaker systems have you been through in the last five years? Does that not make you even more the fool than someone who buys SOTA and sticks with it? Looking at your own shortcomings is more difficult than easy cynicism and almost impossible in some cases. Wishing Fremer would be the price driven fool you perfer him to be is too easy a whack at too simple a target to be either good humor or bad drama.

If you do believe MF only gives good reviews to the price tags of products, then you really should stop reading his columns, even for the cynical "humor" you find so evident. If you believe Fremer is dishonest in his assessment of products, then how do you separate out who amongst the many audio reviewers is not? As RH points out in the November TAS, you could just as easily have written your schpiel about any reviewer who justifies more than $250 per pair speakers or $400 for a receiver. This is all relative and your three systems and easy investment to a downsized $40k system would strike most people as idiotic and self serving materialism. When you were staring into the eyes of an Afgan who no longer had a hut to crouch in, did you mention you had three audio systems?

If you wish to make this thread about Fremer's inconsistencies, that's fine, it's a topic that has some merit. If you wish to choose your targets based on their availability, then you should move on to a more worthy prize, say, a dead fish floating on the top of a barrel.

You do not know how Fremer distributes his money and, if he does give more freely to charities than you, who does not give enough but can provide yourself with three systems, then I would have a higher respect for him no matter how much he spent on his turntable, his car, his food or anything else he wishes to own.

Now, has it occurred to you that there might be a reason MF feels a $100k table is worth the money while a $25k amplifier is not? Have you asked yourself that question? Have you considered the possible answers to that aspect of MF's statement?

Possibly Fremer feels the Caliburn is worth the price because as a SOTA item, it will retain its value for a long period of time. The Caliburn will be purchased by those who seek it just for its instrinsic value as an object of art. There will always be a value to such a product. Doubt that? Try to buy a "pre-owned" 1929 Duesenberg. What will a $25k good but not great amplifier be worth in a dozen years?

If someone like Fremer does not review and someone like Fremer does not own a SOTA product, then what is to become of the SOTA? Shall we all lower ourself to the point where one person - maybe someone with three systems - would arbitrate when we have acieved the best value for our dollar? The SOTA exists because it must and someone must support it for it to continue to exist. A midfield amplifier will be forgotten by all but those seeking repairs in a decade's time.

The Caliburn is a handbuilt product and the $25k amplifier is assembled by machine with circuits that might be considered dubious to the specs are all crowd. At one time a Linn LP12 was considerd outrageous for its claims of performance and its price. Look at it now.

The amplifier comes in a box and you schlepp it around and set it up yourself. The Caliburn comes with a team of experts who tweak the system to perfection. The amplifier sits there as an impassionate observer on the affairs of the system. The Caliburn is the system and invites your attention.

The years of time and the life's work investment in designing and bringing to market a small cottage industry product such as the Caliburn is not even considerd by the manufacturer of the $25k amplifier who sees that amount as a corporate lunch. The SOTA turntable is seen as a serious attempt at extending the audio and music arts while the $25k amplifier is seen as a mark on a data sheet.

If you really step back and think for a change about what Fremer is saying about these two products, maybe you would see some daylight and begin to understand more deeply why your three systems are a piss in the ocean when it comes to audio gear and why the Afgan would think you even more a fool than the person who extends their hand in assistance to others while owning a $100k turntable.

You, sir, are a grade school cynic that even other cynics can detest. You annoy me. Not because you are a wannabe cycnic but because I find your morals to be those of a mockingbird. When you have something serious to discuss, I'll be interested. As for now, you have exhausted everything there is to say about the pinatta that is called Fremer.

Oh, and all of the above was just a joke. Don't you get it?

Jan Vigne
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Re: am I missing something


Quote:
Paying such absurd amounts of money for any gear is simply madness.

That said, folk with more money than brains can still (until the socialists legislate the right away) spend their money in whatever manner they desire.

Ahhh, the inconsistent logic of the petite burgeoisie! To paraphrase Pogo, "We have met the Socialists and they are Us."


Quote:
My problem is not with the existence of such gear, nor in the existance of folk buying it, but in the absolute rarity of such things and the preference to review the unobtainably rare over stuff that can be found on the shelf in decent stores and in more than one or two readers homes.

SOTA is SOTA. It must exist at some level. If not the Caliburn, then it would be some other product. Those who can afford SOTA make it possible, those who cannot all too often rebel against its existence for reasons other than their affront at the price.

Do you go into an public art museum and bitch about how much money the well healed patrons have spent on their donated collections? Do you sit in the mezzanine of the symphony hall and complain about those who can afford to build the front row seats?

This is the dumbing down of the culture and society to the point where stupidity and near poverty are esteemed as "small town values". This is not what this thread is about.

We were discussing MF's inconsistency.

Haven't we had enough of the clash between the have's and the have more's?


Quote:
Aside from a dozen really rich folk, who is ever going to own, or see, or hear the turntable discussed?

Rather than inserting your foot in your mouth why not find out some facts beforehand? Saying this is the number of patrons Caliburn has does not make it so. And so what if in reality only a dozen patrons do purchase a SOTA product? Does that lessen its value somehow? There is only one Sistene Chapel. You are playing the politician's tricks.

JIMV
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Re: am I missing something

A $100K piece of technology is not a museum piece and, unlike a museum, where such rarified items can be seen by mere mortals, the $100K item will not be seen or heard by folk like me, ever. They simply do not exist in flyover country, not in the shops and not in the homes

Building them, buying them, and having them in the firmament are all fine....spending a lot of pages in a magazine devoted to mere mortals is the issue at the exclusion of other gear is my only problem with such things.

Have you ever seen the thing? Has anyone reading the magazine except the reviewer? I doubt it. Now about these expensive but still atainable $10K things that are not reviewed...What of the $3K toys that are found in many of the readers homes. A few reviews of vapor gear (vapor as in only found on the pages of high end magazines) would be really nice. A lot of reviews of such gear sort of crowds out what folk actually buy, see and can aspire to.


Quote:
There is only one Sistene Chapel. You are playing the politician's tricks.

I've been t the Sistine Chapel...a masterpiece seen by hundreds of thousands a year. Are you pretending that many folk see the top end audio toys? You know better.

My issue is the review ratio, not the existence of hyper expensive toys.

mrlowry
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Re: am I missing something

Stereophile is a news organization. A $100,000 turn table is NEWS. Whether or not you or I will ever get to see or hear it is irrelevant. It's very existence is news and DEMANDS coverage. For JA and MF to ignore it would be irresponsible. I want to know of such things existence regardless of if I can afford them or I think that they may be over-kill. If someone can afford such a thing as a 100k turntable where they live is of ZERO consequence. If they have the interest and the means it is within their power to seek it out, hear it, purchase it, and have it installed. Plain and simple.

JIMV
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Re: am I missing something

They have a section for news, heck even for short reviews...pages of review...well that might be just a bit excessive. Again, mere mortals do not own such toys.

As to the magazines responsibility to review over $100K gear, here are a half dozen other turntables for more money. Does the magazine have a responsibility to review them all? What about the $300K Goldmund reference II

http://www.higherfi.com/ttlist/ttlist.htm

linden518
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Re: am I missing something

Okay, I'm not talking to anyone specifically, but to a contingent of you: I think we've pretty much exhausted how filthy and stupid some audiophiles are in enjoying their too-expensive gear. Fine. Let's get off this hamster wheel and move on. Why get so riled up for months and months about the same damn thing? Like Jay Z said, "what you eat don't make ME shit." What makes other people happy is none of your business. Stop drinking that hatorade.

JIMV
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Re: am I missing something

For heavens sake....For at least the second score of times, I am not complaining about any person enjoying a vastly expensive toy. I am not complaining about the existence of such toys or the money spent on them. I am only complaining about what I consider to be the excessive number of reviews of such toys.

That you seem to take such a view as a direct attack on he hobby itself is amusing at best and paranoid at the worst.

What other folk enjoy is none of my business. What the magazine prints IS my business as I, like you, subscribe.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

I personally will stop bitching when you stop quoting bullshit"rappers"(rap is not music is a subject for another day) and using terms that could be found the vanilla ice memoirs.

if you want to be taken seriously, bud.. quoting jay-z (or any other hip hop "artist") to drive home a point does not really do you any favors.

this is a discussion forum. people discuss. go figure. Hell, I admire the viewpoint of JIMV and others (DUP, Ethan, etc)..not that there is anything wrong with going with the herd and being a stereophile can do no wrong kiss ass.....
but it takes all kinds, and I admire those who speak out.
the bitching will continue, I repeat..it will continue, like it or not. thats just human nature... yeah, itd be nice and happy and ignorantly blissful if noone complained..then wed have a forum that would be not only boring, but unrealistic. There are more than enough stepford wives here.


Quote:
Okay, I'm not talking to anyone specifically, but to a contingent of you: I think we've pretty much exhausted how filthy and stupid some audiophiles are in enjoying their too-expensive gear. Fine. Let's get off this hamster wheel and move on. Why get so riled up for months and months about the same damn thing? Like Jay Z said, "what you eat don't make ME shit." What makes other people happy is none of your business. Stop drinking that hatorade.

ncdrawl
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Re: am I missing something

what stereophile writes is damn well my business. i pay for a subscription, and as such, if something about the magazine bothers me, you can bet your ass that I am going to let it be known. I beseech you, as someone who takes issue with those who complain...to simply skim over and refrain from commenting in the posts that do not meet your qc standards. ill make it easy for you. skip over any thread that I start.


Quote:
Okay, I'm not talking to anyone specifically, but to a contingent of you: I think we've pretty much exhausted how filthy and stupid some audiophiles are in enjoying their too-expensive gear. Fine. Let's get off this hamster wheel and move on. Why get so riled up for months and months about the same damn thing? Like Jay Z said, "what you eat don't make ME shit." What makes other people happy is none of your business. Stop drinking that hatorade.

linden518
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Re: am I missing something

Hey, I'm not saying stop the discussion, ncdrawl. It's just that why don't some of you try to diversify your scope or broaden your horizons and get some other topics? Why this onanistic, masturbatory fixation on hating on people who own or review expensive stuff? Get over that shit and please stop whining. Damn, girl. If you think what Fremer writes or reviews is ridiculous, fine. That's my point: it's your prerogative to disagree. Make your point (and most of you have, over and over and over.) Move on, and go to read Tellig or Reina on more reasonably priced gear. Just don't keep whining like some 80 yr old grandma grinding her teeth about her social security.

Plus, I don't care if you're too parochial or too ensconsced in your own small, provincial world to not like a certain genre of music. Sure, you can hate hip-hop. But don't use that as some leverage to make yourself seem like some connoisseur of music looking down upon less worthy minions. Don't kid yourself. If you don't want to spar over Jay-Z lyrics, I can do it over the time signature changes in Beethoven's Opus 110 sonata, if that's worthy of your heightened sensibilities.

You're funny, ncdrawl. I like you. I like better that you STILL refuse to answer that holocaust question I keep posing to you, too, why you said you were going to be sickened by the mention of holocaust denial by DUP if it were true (implying that I'M the one who lied), but that kind of revulsion never seems to have happened, when it was proven that was the case. It was so easy for you to ignore, huh?

Whatever.

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