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bertdw
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All Capacitors Sound Alike?
CECE
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Electrical properties in capacitors are measurable, documented. This article is nothing but BS. so many ELECTRICAL parameters involved in electrical components capacitors, resistors etc. temp ratings, . Where does this joker come up with 400 "break in" on a capactior? More made up audio nonsense. checkout some medical or auto electronics, and read up about how components need to be STABLE, meet extreme conditions, etc. Why are "audio components" in some bizzare world of made up issues? the electrical signal doesn't know it's music or a control signal. Meeting the conditions to perform a function whether in audio electronics, medical equipment, or laboratory analyzing equipment. 400 hour break in......$300 capactiors!! For a speaker cross over.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


Quote:
Interesting read:

http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htm

Yes, quite interesting Bert. Been mulling over some thoughts.

I think some of his conclusions per manufacturer/model depends alot on how close to accurate the preamplifier actually is. I think there are lot of variables. I am sure you also mulled this over as well.

I also think the capacitor values may not be optimum for full frequency response, tainting the conclusions. But I do see some of the same basic characteristics the author mentions in some of the caps. Nice to have confirmation.

Thanks for the link Bert. Much appreciated.
Steve

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

There you go. DUP has heard all capacitors under all conditions, and has measured them all to boot. And DUP has spoken. And measured. And they all sound alike.

Does anyone dare to doubt the DUP's grasp of universal truths?

Thanks, DUP. For settling the question once and for all. Now, this weekend, maybe you could pop out a cure for cancer, a peace settlement in the Middle East, and a solution to the dual-mandate conflict currently plaguing the Federal Reserve and Treasury.

Why stop with capacitors, O great genius?

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Quickly skimmed through the article. Looks interesting for a detailed read and evaluation. Not having read this, here are my thoughts.

In my experience, "capacitors" do sound different from one another. It came as a big surprise to me, especially after all the "measurements" and "school books" does not say it can.

Why caps sound different is another question. I had posted on this before, in the Tweaks... section. I called into question the typical quick dismissal of capacitor sonic difference by those who made measurements and performed computer simulations. Measurements and proper simulation is not as easy as those articles may make it out to be.

I also called into question the tendency to attribute the difference to the capacitor alone. Although I clearly and unmistakebly hear a different sonic "character" before and after the capacitor change, a few other things changed as well (solder, wire length, type of wire, capacitor physical size, location on the circuitboard, insulation, etc.). Unless those other factors are accounted for, I cannot claim that the capacitor is the only cause of the change in sound. Although I have been loose on this point and claimed that anyway, I suspect many of us have been just as loose.

SAS Audio
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


Quote:
Quickly skimmed through the article. Looks interesting for a detailed read and evaluation. Not having read this, here are my thoughts.

In my experience, "capacitors" do sound different from one another. It came as a big surprise to me, especially after all the "measurements" and "school books" does not say it can.

Why caps sound different is another question. I had posted on this before, in the Tweaks... section. I called into question the typical quick dismissal of capacitor sonic difference by those who made measurements and performed computer simulations. Measurements and proper simulation is not as easy as those articles may make it out to be.

I also called into question the tendency to attribute the difference to the capacitor alone. Although I clearly and unmistakebly hear a different sonic "character" before and after the capacitor change, a few other things changed as well (solder, wire length, type of wire, capacitor physical size, location on the circuitboard, insulation, etc.). Unless those other factors are accounted for, I cannot claim that the capacitor is the only cause of the change in sound. Although I have been loose on this point and claimed that anyway, I suspect many of us have been just as loose.

Nice post WTL. I agree. In fact Richard Marsh has a page with calculations (and some advertising) some years ago that I think helps.

http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/consider.htm

vladoslav
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

bertdw,
I don

Elk
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


Quote:
Does anyone dare to doubt the DUP's grasp of universal truths?


I am waiting for Alex to reveal the subtle complexity of DUP's writings. I do not dare to attempt to understand them on my own.

On the topic, I have found that caps sound different - at least in speaker crossovers. One advantage with this experimentation is that one has two identical components to compare, the original speaker and the modified version.

CECE
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

It's not that i heard all these capaictors, it's that BASIC electrical concepts, knowledge, experience, and understanding, what capaictors are. These different variations, with some clever marketing names etc. And many like Jensen, are being sold as "audio" by a clever marketing team. I had Jensen capaictors in x-ray systems back in teh 70's and they didn't come with anything near some made up "audio" sound qualitys. They had electrical parameters, temp enviroment use, etc. Where is "audio" sound quality in a capacitor spec? From a legit mfg, not a marketing company. $300 "audio" capacitors, yu bet, I'm sure you fully understand how that spec is measured, and formulated.Cliffy needs a class in basic electronics and other reality based subjects. In this "very informative" article, there is NOTHING of sustance, no measurements, specs, electrical parammeters, it's all some made up opions about some perceived audible nonsense. 400 hours to "break in a capacitor"!!! think about the lunacy in that statement, I'm sure the original mfg has that spec in their products. Who would make such an unstable device in this day and age? I'm sure he recalled exactly what it sounded like at 250 hours, so he realized it needed more break in.....yup.

CECE
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Teh other issues you mentioned are being dealt with by others. But if they need help, they can write me. You must have that open mind thing going on how a capacitor takes 400 hours for it to be audio broken in. What in your experience do you sumize is changing in teh 400 hours, of applying the magic break in CD tones? Of course there is a break in CD, from a maker of magic wires, that need such a process. Do the transformers need to be broken in in teh pre amps and Cd players, how come no one has that angle yet? Just wires, capacitors, the optics on the CD players, since they are solid state, but in audio, things are different. Ever wonder why solid state LIGHTING (LED) is so superior with stabilty, in light output, color, long life, it's SOLID STATE. But I'm sure you bake in your transistors and diodes right?

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

This is all just silly.

Everybody knows capacitors need 800-1600 hours to porperly burn in. Not 'break in,' burn in.

I have some oil caps from the seventies that are still improving.

1978 was a particularly good year for capacitors. Almost as good as 1982 was for Pomerol, and 1979 was for resistors.

400 hours. My ass.

CECE
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Like you heard all capacitors that you could claim they ain't improving with age and time and burning/breaking/flexing/shuffling/strolling/twisting/spinning in for better audio. There are Boeing B3 bombers still at the factory waiting for the components to achieve optimum capacitor flux. It started in like 1942, they are having a problem though, getting tubes for the original osciliscopes monitoring the changes. How many chuckle heads wait and wait for audio things to "break in" like line cords, THATS are real winner! Tehse mfgs of this crap, must go out of their way to find the most unstable, crap in the mfg. $3 line cords for a computer, processing data in teh Ghz, doesn't need breakin, but some 35W 3% THD audio amp does......think about the insanity. My new GE washer is still breaking in it's cool, white line cord, I think it's white instead of the old standard black, cus white cords clean better.

Buddha
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

The scariest part is that after they burn in, the inevitable decline begings.

Everyone also knows that some capacitors have a limited time span, so there are probably only another 1000-2500 hours of 'optimal' or 'peak' capacitor performance before they should be replaced.

(That's what makes the oil based ones sound so good, they hold their peak for decades, as opposed to regular caps, which start to degrade rapidly.)

It's amazing to me how many audiophiles hear 'break in,' but then they can't hear 'break down' until there is a catastrophic failure or the change is so glaring that they finally snap to it.

Capacitor manufacturers need to be more succinct in telling their customers about the 'listening windows' of their products.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


Quote:
It's amazing to me how many audiophiles hear 'break in,' but then they can't hear 'break down' until there is a catastrophic failure or the change is so glaring that they finally snap to it.

This statement is SO right on! I'm pointing a finger at myself who recently experienced this with the slow deterioration of signal in the left channel of my amp. She finally has made it to the repair facility but not till more blatant static type noises emminated from the speaker panels!

RG

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Perhaps this is a very good thing however. We notice break-in because we are obsessed with our new toy. Then we spend thousands of hours listening to music rather than to the equipment.

I can live with this.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Again I find myself responding to a thread that starts off with a false assumption.
A capacitor has no paticular sound.
A circuit is required to create sound.
The interaction of ALL of the components in that circuit create a sound.
To claim that any paticular component be it a capacitor, resistor, tube, transistor, or wire is just blind predjudice. Look at the big picture. Any one part by itself does nothing.

Also, if a capacitor improves after a certain amount of time, do all of the other capacitors in the circuit improve, and if so do they improve at the same rate? Do the series capacitors improve over time while the parallel caps degrade over time offsetting each other? Yes, obviously a stupid concept.

gkc
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Cyclebrain, I don't want to speak for Elk, but I doubt if he would disagree with you. The obvious fact that you mention, that all components, in themselves, are systems, often goes unsaid but is always assumed by careful listeners. You can't plug a new capacitor into a poorly-designed component and expect it to carry the load.

I think, however, that the thread assumes an overall component design that has integrity. As the great Ralph Houk said, when asked if his success as a new Yankee manager was attributable to his own managerial skills, or the talents of the players he inherited, "You can't polish a turd."

You are absolutely correct. The circuit, as a whole, has to work, or tweezer-fixes will be a waste of time and money.

No handful of capacitors can save a bad design. But, if the design needs what better capacitors can bring to a new synergy, then the change can be nothing short of miraculous. Witness the new AR preamps. More dynamic, more transparent, and less murky, but by a tiny margin, since the original designs were sound to begin with. Still, progress is progress. And we'll take whatever we can get.

As Sam's friend Lars would have said, "lift the whales."

Sorry, DUP, but you CAN hear this, if it's done to fit into the larger design scheme. And you can't measure it with a 'scope. But, if you listen and love music, you sure as hell can hear it. No proofs are required.

Just get me closer to the music.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

In Martial Arts circles, there is a guy by the name of George Dillman who claims to have the skill to knock people out without touching them, simply by gathering his energy and projecting it onto his opponent. His claims are not verified by science and he has been challenged by various people and he has yet to perform his no touch knock out on "non-believers". Yet, he has quite a following and his students claim that he does indeed knock them out without touching them.

I see the same phenomenon in the world of high end audio where believers claim to hear differences in capacitors, resistors, opamps, potentiometers, and plugs. Their claims are not verified by science, but they stick to their guns non the less.

At which point does science end and magic begin? George Dillman's students argue that science is unable to measure the energy George projects. In high end audio, aficionados claim that we don't know what to measure when it comes to audio or that science hasn't caught up to what matters.

If we don't know what to measure or if we don't have the instruments to measure, then how can we design the components? When does alchemy and magic begin? Is it at the capacitor level or is it at the hi-fi outlet level or perhaps at the cable riser level? Why do we feel the need to bullshit ourselves? If we can design rockets to go to space, if we can design cars, satellites, ships, missiles, planes and computers without magic, we can design audio equipment without magic as well.

gkc
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Alex, you just listen. That's all. If you can't hear it, the measurements don't matter. "Science" (a bit too large and vague for me...) measures, music lovers listen.

Measurements get you repeatable results, if you are designing in volume or testing. It is useful, but only for quality control. Reliability cannot come randomly, once you hit the assembly line. But the best manufacturers still listen, just to make sure.

Belief in "scientific" (again, a vague category, in my view) absolutes merely gives you fodder for arguing in public.

In private, you just listen. "Science" is light years behind what is between your own personal ears.

In public, if you have to "prove" the validity of what you argue, then you need your science and the security of numbers. But the best science always sounds better in your own listening room. If you have to somehow prove that your choices are best, by resorting to graphic abstractions, you have a serious inner conflict. Resolve it how you will -- that's your concern, not mine.

I don't have to argue the superiority of my systems. I chose them because I like the way they sound, and neither of them craps out when subjected to my routine abuses.

Fuck George Dillman, whoever he is. Does he love music? I don't need scientific verification. I just want to be moved by the music. Most of what I listen to doesn't move me as much as what I ended up buying. I know the why of some of it, but not all of it. And I don't care. I go to concerts, remember what I can, and try to get as close to the memory as I can manage, within the boundaries of what the 5,000 LP's and CD's that line my listening rooms will allow.

It's not "science" (again, whatever THAT means), it's memory and listening.

I have no idea how capacitors work or are supposed to work. If a salesman I trust tells me, "try this -- it has new and better capacitors," I'll try it. If I like it, and he tells me it's the capacitors, I really don't give a friar's fuck. I'll buy it if it gets me closer to the music. If not, I won't buy it. The salesman understands.

Somehow, this approach to musical enjoyment infuriates you and DUP, Alex. I think I understand, but I'm not sure. You have to have "proof." Poor you. You're missing all the fun, from my perspective.

Ironically, you denigrate the science behind capacitor design, yet what could be more scientific than capacitor design. You (or your persona, or both) are apparently caught in an endless loop, bounded by the need for proof and the impossibility of ever attaining it. Surely, you must understand why I have no desire to enter this particular mental prison.

Happy listening. Whatever that means.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Finally you admit to why you are missing the point, you don't UNDERSTAND how capacitors work!!!! But if a salseman tells you this has the better ones you will listen and buy it!!! You are exactly why magic wire makers thrive, magic capacitor makers thrive....Sy Syms knows an educated consumer is HIS best customer, magic wire , magic capacitor, magic SOLDER makers thrive on the un knowing.
Only "volume" mfg's need science, for QC? You may be onto something, brilliance comes out of ignorance, man is that an oxyMORON. Remember the $27,000 Zander runie zoolo something or other CD player using obsolete DAC chips (cus' they didn't use SCIENCE, didn't measure, didn't know Philips stopped making that chip, cus they came up with new and better ones!!) but since they may not have endorsed science, just listened it was mis wired, out of phase, and (JA) measuring showed it's defect, but MF loved how it sound. So what kind of faulty MEMORY does he have if he thought it sounded good, but was inaccurate, out of phase. So when you just listen, you have such a fine "memory" of some live event, some equipment could be totaly devoid of accuracy, but you like the sound, and therefore it's superior? But how do you know you are getting the original event, or the original recording. Certainly the master MF with his superior listening skills, wouldn't know live from anything else, since he likes anything if it's pricey, goofy, and has nonsense attached to it. You may be missing a large portion of your musical event, and not even knowing it. amazing how just listening, is able to tell all, what if a MEASUREMENT shows that something is amiss in the ckt, the defect is corrected, and now it sounds even BETTER!! Wouldn't that confuse you? Back to basics, like I have said before, understand how electrical components operate, and you save money, and get better sound, for less. Listening to a salesman, tell you this has the best "audio grade" capacitor, is gonna get you in trouble.
Science is not light years BEHIND audio SCIENCE. There are concepts that where developed, issues discovered back in teh late 20's and early 30's at BELL LABS that are exactly right on and used today as the basics of audio reproduction and recording.....it was SCIENCE that brought you recorded sound and SCIENCE that continues to improve it. Just listening, is maybe an excuse for those who like you don't understand basics, and don't wanna learn teh SCIENCE that goes on in the components and the science of acosutics and audio. If High end is about getting the best sound hi fidelity to teh original event, just listening is not gonna do it. Ya listen measure, measure some more, that's how it keeps improving. Sticking goofy labels on some capaictor and calling it the audio miracle of the week, is not science, it's for the unknowing. Now what about magic solders, of course solder has sound right, as a previous post included. And of course it's audible. Wonder how ya measure teh sound of solders? Since lotsa science does go into materials, liek solder, how it does it designed job. Under different condtions, like how do planes keep up in teh air year after year, lotsa solder up there, lotsa wires, hopefully they have aged their capacitors so it flys right. How come VIDEO equipment doesn't suffer capacitor issues, like AUDIO does, could it be, the marketeers ain't jumped on the nonsense boat?

CECE
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Not universal truths, just some BASIC knowledge of electrical components. And some live event listening. Recently at a live event, I had to do teh unsafe action of using a groudn adaptor for a 3 prong cord cap, sine I didn't have a 3 prong extension cord, so I plug in teh 3 prong male plug into teh adaptor, and turn on teh component, and it sounds like it did before at hoem with a ground attached, how can that be?, I used a simple adaptor from MCM, probably made out of some nice highly toxic plastic from China, but it got me going, I did wash my hands after handling it, it just felt toxic!!! But it had glorious sound, was it the adaptor or the rest of the stuff, like the mics etc? but it must be the adaptor, as it allowed me to power up the mixer, without it there would be no sound. I will be getting a 3 wire ext cord for next time, electrocution is not a friendly thing. The thing was plugged in right behind some table in a restaurnat, wonder if teh outlet was aduio grade? nope, not teh way teh entire box moved in and about in teh wall, like it's ready to fall out!! But it sure did sound gooooood. And there are some who hear wall outlets, solder, capacitors, they are of another planet

bifcake
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


Quote:

I have no idea how capacitors work or are supposed to work. If a salesman I trust tells me, "try this -- it has new and better capacitors," I'll try it. If I like it, and he tells me it's the capacitors, I really don't give a friar's fuck. I'll buy it if it gets me closer to the music. If not, I won't buy it. The salesman understands.

Somehow, this approach to musical enjoyment infuriates you and DUP, Alex. I think I understand, but I'm not sure. You have to have "proof." Poor you. You're missing all the fun, from my perspective.

You misunderstand me. I don't advocate buying components based simply on their measurements or based on their measurements at all. Either the system is going to move you, or it won't and you buy based on that. I'm with you on that.

You also say that you don't care if it's a capacitor or anything else that makes a difference. You just want that musical enjoyment. - I'm with you on that too.

What I'm getting at is that claiming that one can hear a difference from one capacitor to another or one potentiometer to another or one connector to another where there is no measurable difference between the said components is analogous to subscribing to magic.

Certain components are picked for their specifications based on their function within a circuit. Certain components are picked for reliability, size, cost, etc. Resistors or connectors aren't picked for their inherent sound qualities.

bertdw
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


Quote:
Resistors or connectors aren't picked for their inherent sound qualities.

Not so. For example, Erno Borbely offers Caddock resistor upgrades to his kits for "higher resolution." Welbourne Labs offers the same in their stepped attenuators. And Richard Vandersteen uses barrier strips instead of binding posts because they sound better.

CECE
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

barrier strips "sound better" than binding posts!!! Please explain that engineering marvel. Barrier strips where used in 1962 Dynaco ST-70 and HK binding posts are more secure, easy to use, no shorts from strands if you have bare wire, binding posts take banana plugs for solid clean fast insatllations, barrier strips sound better...dat's a gud von!! Pleae elaborate. And teh specs on Caddock parts versus say Ohmite of the same type, are what in difference, temperature coeffients? tolerances, please elaborate on how that brand SOUNDS better than Ohmite or any other major maker of resistors of the same type....ever peruse an Allied Electronics or Newark catalog on all teh brands making the same stuff, designers then go on PRICE in bulk for prodcution when all else is the same specs. SPECS, measurements, to meet a ckt parameter, what a concept!! Same for caps, inductors, barrier terminal strips don't pass muster for CE, that would mean no European sales, brilliant, that's why CE spec'd speaker connections are either Speakon from Neutrik, or the other style banana binding posts so no exposed parts...barrier strips indeed, in 1961....things have improved, and advanced, it really has.

bertdw
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

DUP, I merely stated an opposing opinion to that of AlexO, and named three manufacturers of equipment who choose parts based on sound quality. If I named a thousand, I'm sure it wouldn't change your mind. But here's a quote from Stereophile:

"I've tested all the expensive binding posts and terminal strips still sound best." - Richard Vandersteen.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1207van/

I don't care to elaborate further. If you'd like to read more from Welbourne Labs or Erno Borbely, use a search engine. Don't worry, they're not as hard to use as a spell checker.

bifcake
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

I wonder how much of that is real and how much of that is Vandersteen trying to differentiate himself in the market and position himself as a guru.

CECE
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

102%..if that's possible. I bet outlets from 1933 used as an AC line outlet would have a more mature timbre, since it would harken back to the days of vacuum tubes, Emerson radios, and BARRIER strips as connection devices. Ever wonder why components evolve, materials change, everyonce in a while it's cus it is an improvment, ease of use, superior electrical protection, cheaper to mfg, while still producing a superior product. barrier strips, nothing like a step back in time to be used as a marketing tool. On what basis do they "sound" better than modern banana plugs? Or speakon from Neutrik, an industry standard for superior construction and ease of use, and electrical protection, and they just keep on working robust build quality. CE approved bnana plugs are also a good idea, if ya want to sell stuff in Europe....that's a small market anyway right? But any thing about how the barriers sound better, based on what parameters in reality? Besides imagination.....

RGibran
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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Interesting thoughts from Sean Adams, Slimdevices designer of the Transporter...

RG

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


Quote:
... one can hear a difference from one capacitor to another or one potentiometer to another or one connector to another where there is no measurable difference between the said components is analogous to subscribing to magic.

All science begins with empirical observation. It's all magic until we subsequently determine why what we observe is occurring.

Having done the mods and compared them directly to the original I know that capacitors can sound different. I do not know why however. I guess that makes me a magician.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


Quote:
I see the same phenomenon in the world of high end audio where believers claim to hear differences in capacitors, resistors, opamps, potentiometers, and plugs. Their claims are not verified by science, but they stick to their guns non the less.

Anyone who is uninformed or deliberately ignorant of the information provided by Jung and Marsh in their groundbreaking articles to be found in the Feb/March 1980 Audio magazine should avail themself of the wealth of information provided therein. They should do this before they accuse anyone else of not understanding how capacitors work or placing into dicsussion the idea those who hear capacitor sound are deluded into believing in "magic". If you are arguing from a position of ignorance, you are far more likely to believe what is not true than would be the listener who simply knows what they hear. If you do not read the landmark papers from audio's history, you are not likely to follow the conversations which have followed from those articles in the succeeding decades. Any well stocked public library should have the Audio archives on their reserve shelves. They were, last time I looked, still available on line which places them no more than a search engine away. I have both issues on my lap as I type. I saved these two issues when I threw out almost all of my back issues of Audio after they had finally dissolved into a mass market shill. I did so since the topic represented one of the most pivotal discussions in modern audio history. The concepts from which Jung and Marsh worked came directly from the conclusive, repeated observations of audiophiles and music lovers going back over 50 years ago to the days of kitchen table hotrodding of audio equipment, the well known "orange drops" of the '50-60's and the high performance products of yesteryear. They came from audio designers who listened to their products.

There is no discussion of whether capacitors affect the sound quality of a component. If you are still clinging to the idea that passive parts do not matter, you are driving that infamous 1950's sedan of which upd so often speaks. Most importantly, the implications of the Jung/Marsh articles are that passive components matter despite measurements which would suggest they do not. The articles so much as state without doubt or reservation that what can be heard should be considered a reality even if the instrumentation doesn't exist to measure it or when the knowledge to know what to measure is still to be divined. From these articles the concept of cable sound gained much needed traction since many of the same properties of a capacitor apply to cable construction. Along with the misguided logic that all vacuum tubes sound the same because they are similar in construction the concept that passive parts have no affect on the sound quality officially began to crumble when the February 1980 issue of Audio magazine hit the shelves. When you find the articles, I would draw your attention to the numerous measurements, tables, charts, graphs and pictorial displays which represent what at the time was the best understanding of the "sound" of passive components. I would particularly draw you attention to the subtext article entitled, "'Tuning' typically used audio circuits with quality capacitors".

Interestingly, both issues also include technical articles titled, "Another view of TIM" which, along with Matti Ottala's original articles on TIM, also moved the audio world to take another look at measurements as they had existed and been used to that time.

There is no discussion of the sound of capacitors unless it is to discuss just how much they affect the sound quality of a component and why certain types, particularly those from the early days of audio, tend to sound best in certain applications.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0708/capacitor1.htm

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Interesting thoughts from Sean Adams, Slimdevices designer of the Transporter...


He is absolutely correct when he states" . . .as pointless as arguing creationism vs evolution. One is science, and one is "because I say so"."

As a member of the board of the National Center for Science Education, I applaud Mr. Adam's succinct summary.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Here is another interesting article Jan, written by Karl Weber PHD chemistry. It tells of more going on besides electron movement at the molecular level.

http://www.audience-av.com/capacitors/a_chemistview.php

And the RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, written by 26 engineers, 1960, 4th edition (3rd edition written in 1952) pages 191-196. Covers different types of capacitors in a more general way, although not exhaustively.

Hope this helps.
Steve

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Walt Jung and Richard Marsh - boy that takes me back. They also published articles in Audio Amateur Magazine, at about the same time. I have those; I'll have to dig them out of the closet. Thanks for jogging my memory, Jan.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

PICKING CAPACITORS - Walter G. Jung and Richard Marsh
Reprinted from Audio Magazine, February and March, 1980

http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


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400 hours. My ass.

I'm not doubting your object of desire. But who's got that kind of stamina?

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Tushy... err. I mean touche!

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

What else you got to do?

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No ELK, it makes you perhaps delusional......and easily influenced by outside forces, if you didn't know the caps where changed, I bet you would never had heard the difference. Unless of course you replaced DEFECTIVE caps with functional ones, that's not what I think you are talkin' bout', is it? Ever read a spec sheet on capacitors....there are some pretty tight tolerances on quality stuff, temp, humidty, dozens of other specs, audio sound is never there though, cus' a designer uses a capacitor based on it's needed spec to perform a needed issue in a ckt. stabilty in hot instalations, size, to fit in a space on a board....hanging magic caps onto some ckt board, and proclaiming, this sounds better, is more audio BS. I always get a kick out of some of these upgraders who will sell you magic caps, proclaim this will improve this or that, but the rest of teh ckt goes unchanged.....Gullible brand caps are a big seller I think.

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Capacitors? We ain't got no capacitors! We don't need no capictors. I don't have to show you any stinkin' capacitors! I was told by a electronic guru not to f*ck around with the factory capacitors in my Sansui 2500 speaker systems. Am I the only one that caught the Maria Maldaur album?

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

For those of you that are interested I have a new cutting edge "capacitor". It has a very wide bandwidth, virtually no phase shift over the audio bandwidth and beyond, no break in period, no degredation over time, and very low series resistence. It's a piece of wire. Won't make for a very good capacitor but looks good based on specs.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Yup, that's how electrical design works, when a ckt needs a capacitor of a specific type, voltage, capacitance, ya get a piece of wire, brilliant. Now if you where looking for a zero ohm resistor, maybe. And yes there is such a thing.

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No ELK, it makes you perhaps delusional......


I have made the direct comparison. I have directly observed the difference.

You have never done any comparative listening, correct?

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Gullible brand caps are a big seller I think.

I-IV-V with a turnaround.

No, you don't think, that's the problem. You've made your decision and nothing is going to get close enough to your brain to challenge it.

MyGod! The level of what you don't know and are not willing to find out! Read the article. The information is almost thirty yeards old.


Quote:
From time to time we hear references to distortion and other nonlinear effects produced by passive circuit components, such as capacitors, used in audio circuits. However, only on rare occasion can anything be found in written form which attempts to quantify or otherwise document capacitor problems, particularly as they specifically relate to audio. Yet, distortions are produced by a wide variety of basic capacitor types, and in some cases forms of this distortion are rather easily measurable. Why there hasn't been more written on this topic is truly a good question, as in many instances the audible defects produced by capacitors can easily be the Achilles' heel of a given design. If this were not a truism, why else would there be so many audiophile modifications consisting essentially of capacitor upgrades only? The implications of this will be apparent when this article is fully appreciated. http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm
/>

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

That's right, 30 years and how materials have improved, in components, and drivers. I'm sure YOU have listened to all the magic caps, and every possible itteration of some other magic wrap. How can Jan possibly know the sound of anything relative to LIVE music, or reproducing it...his reference is a highly distorted, amplifier, driving a mid range speaker, and only ONE mid range at that trying to reproduce an entire spectrum of music!! It's IMPOSSIBLE!! IMPOSSIBLE. And yet, he can hear the differences in a capacitor BRAND!!! Components have improved over the last 30 years, much more stable over time, function right on the design specs, things do get better. Of course some very early CONCEPTS on acustics, how we hear, room effects, etc, like what was discovered by Bell labs, are of course still true, but getting to the level of hi fi reproduction at home has improved so much in 30 years, listen to an original large Advent from 1972, then listen to a current modern full range Legacy or even some other lesser brand, the difference is so incredibly obvious, why, cus every material used has improved, all the caps, drivers, everything in 30 years. 30 years ago, when you compared components of course they probably had different specs, tolerances, out of tolerance, and it made an audible difference. I would bet you couldn't hear a $300 magic cap over any other correct value type in a speaker crossover ever, that cost a few dollars if that much. As bad as GM products are even they have improved in 30 years, I'm sure a 1972 Chevy is a real treat to drive over a new one. And why do you think when those old tube amps like Jan's Mc get rebuilt to current specs, and they update teh capacitors resistors to modern stable, parts, cus teh old stuff was junk compared to modern stuff, as far as meeting specs, statying in spec etc. If you hear such dramatic differences in a capacitor, you have a defective cap, you are using the wrong types, values etc for the situation. I'm sure you can hear a Centralab over a Sprauge cap of the same type value and ratings.......

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Now if you where looking for a zero ohm resistor, maybe. And yes there is such a thing.

Yeppers..they are used as 'jumpers' in circuits that are designed so that 'fake' resistors, with a zero ohm or 'wire' type connectivity can be put in the machines that place resistors on boards. This simplifies construction by one work station,and lowers costs. Many boards, due to layout and design, need jumpers on them to complete a circuit. A standard execution and design practice in the industry.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

And of course there are different sounding zero ohm resistors, Jan will of course hear it, right Jan?

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Knock off the personal insults, upd, or Stephen will send this post to the Dead Zone while leaving yours.

Don't try to put dumb words that came from your head into my posts, upd.

Have you read the article? Have you done any listening comparisons as Elk suggested? Until you do, you are blowing it out your butt - as usual. And it stinks - as usual.

Read the article, upd, it's nitroglycerin to someone who doesn't want their world shaken.

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Have YOU listened to these capacitors? Since you seem to agree with it so much. If you haven't done that you are blowing smoke, blah blah blah. You couldn't tell a Wonder Cap from a I wonder what cap that is, shoot out. Not a personal attack, an observation, based on what you consider "reference" for hearing what LIVE musical events should sound like at home....5 inches ain't doing in for so many things...shall I name 2? BLOSE has sold that concept for decades, I guess you think that's the live event? And yes, I have and do use BLOSE so I know what that sounds like. And many other things I've used and listened to. Including LIVE music weekly and more, so my memory can be a much shorter span...

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


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Including LIVE music weekly and more, so my memory can be a much shorter span...

Yikes! That's too easy!

No one has denied the sadly lacking length of your attenion span, upd.

So you go out drinking every night. What's that got to do with capacitors?

I-IV-V.


Quote:
5 inches ain't doing in for so many things

Second verse, same as the first. What does that have to do with capacitors?


Quote:
Have YOU listened to these capacitors? Since you seem to agree with it so much. If you haven't done that you are blowing smoke, blah blah blah.

"These" capacitors? I have no idea what that means and neither do you since you refuse to read the article and you cannot comprehend anything that would contradict what you ... "think".

The article does not recommend a specific brand of capacitor. That wasn't its purpose. You'd know that if you had read the article.

There are, however, more specific recommendations in the links provided to more articles regarding the "sound" of capacitors. The links can be found at the end of the article. You would know that, if you had taken the time and been considerate enough to have read the article before you start blasting me.

Those recommendations were made by Jung and Marsh and a young upstart engineer named John Curl. You would know that too - if you had read even the first page of the article.

To be quite plain about it. Whether it's you or anyone else, anyone who reads the article and does not follow the logic that capacitors do not all sound alike, is an idiot. This has been established knowledge for almost three decades and common knowledge among those with the ability to hear for over a half century. To argue the idea is to argue solely from a point of total, willful ignorance when the article has been provided to you on a silver platter.

Now ...

Have I swapped out caps and heard the improvement in the music?

Yeah, more than once.

Have you? That's the question, upd.

Are you going to read the article? If not, why not?

Look, you know my opinion of the BS you post. I don't care to get involved in anything you have to say. Any exchange with you is less than worthless since you have once again proven you do not belong on a discussion forum.

Either read the article and comment on what it has to say with something meaningful or shut up. I'm done with you on this thread. You are a waste of time with the same ol' three chord progression with insults to me added. Screw off, upd!

Go away, upd! You do not belong here.

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?


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Have YOU listened to these capacitors?


Again DUP, have YOU listened to different caps in a direct A/B comparison?

10:1 the honest answer is "no".

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Re: All Capacitors Sound Alike?

Drinking every nite, don't think so...Seltzer water and I go crazy with a lime in it...By 2AM I'm already tired, no booze to wipe me out..see how you ASSume stuff that's is totaly WRONG, like how you think you hear stuff that doesn't happen, or ever will. Well you are teh one who says LIVE sound from memory that you try to recreate at home, since you have no reference to what LIVE sound is, you are therefore unable to make sensible coments on what should be happening at home. It is very obvious, since you thionk live music sounds like what comes out of a 5" speaker, drivine by a clock radio power supply. Not an insult, just a fact. There is no way live music is being recreated anywhere near anything live out of a 5" speaker, trying to do full range dynamic sound. clueless is being kind if you where called such. Go out and experience some live MUSIC of any type, you may wake up, and realize, how wrong you are. Forget about how you think capacitors sound, start at teh basic level, speakers, WATTS.......you have a long way to go, to start nit picking nonsense issues, like capacitors, the sound of a piece of wire....

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