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The plan was contingent on a new listening room being built from the ground up...

Oh geez. It that really necessary in order to evaluate these little do-dads? What are we talkin' here, pier and beam or slab on grade?

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Good to hear it may still happen

Wouldn't hold my breath. Seems the posturing has begun.

My thoughts on the subject, after waiting for some real results with measurements after months and months are.....they are hoping that no one will ask anymore and the matter will quietly sink into oblivion saving themselves the effort and embarrasment when the results show no difference at all.
So yeah, why do these little do dads require a custom built room to measure them in? Anyone including JA with all his measurement equipment could have set up and compared these things in less than 30 minutes and posted the graphs here.

Bumping this till we get a response. So how's the measurement room building going? Any chance these things will be measured before the next millenia? Fat chance? Hoping no one asks anymore? Come onnnnnnnnnn what's the holdup already?

Bumpity bump. Yooooooooooooo hooooooooo any replies? Summer is almost here. I would think a concise test would be in the product maker's interest since he had "proof" last year that they do what is claimed?

Keep bumping, you have our support

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Keep bumping, you have our support

Thanks, if only the powers that be would get off their asses and do something.

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Keep bumping, you have our support

Thanks, if only the powers that be would get off their asses and do something.

Ain't that just like a troll, always demanding that someone else do something, preferring the soft comfort of a Barko-lounger.

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Thanks, if only the powers that be would get off their asses and do something.

Nothing is going to happen.

You are supposed to accept that the sound improves as a tenant of faith.

Or you could try the system for yourself.

Naaaaaaah, that'd take all the fun out of bitchin' about this product, wouldn't it?

They are offering an expensive product, extolling the incredible improvements they provide, without any explanation or evidence of efficacy whatsoever.

They have both the burden of proof and of persuasion.

It is not the consumer's responsibility to establish that the product works (or doesn't).

Of course, others may choose to accept on faith alone that these pretty, but nonsensical, products significantly alter sound.

I hope they are lots of these people and they purchase so many of these things that the price drops to perhaps 10% of their current price. I'll then buy some on looks alone.

I suggest you buy, say, two dozen.

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They are offering an expensive product, extolling the incredible improvements they provide, without any explanation or evidence of efficacy whatsoever.

If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it, like any other product. The ones who complain that there's no explanation are same ones who complain about the explanation when there is one.

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They have both the burden of proof and of persuasion.

No, actually they don't have the burden of either one. That's an old wives tale.

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It is not the consumer's responsibility to establish that the product works (or doesn't).

Well, actually it is the consumer's responsibility to prove it works. If it doesn't work for him, in his system, he can return it for a refund. Perhaps you're counting on NASA or Consumer Reports stepping up to the plate for you. The Amazing Randi?

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Of course, others may choose to accept on faith alone that these pretty, but nonsensical, products significantly alter sound.

Uh, oh, a little bit of anti-tweak, anti-audiophile rhetoric is slipping out.

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I hope they are lots of these people and they purchase so many of these things that the price drops to perhaps 10% of their current price. I'll then buy some on looks alone.

So, we won't be getting an in-depth review from you any time soon?

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If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it, like any other product.

Agreed.

Also don't buy it if there is no reasonable chance it will work. 100 miles/gallon fuel magnets anyone?

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No, actually they don't have the burden of either one. That's an old wives tale.

Wives' tale? That is, a superstition or urban legend? Hardly.

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Perhaps you're counting on NASA or Consumer Reports stepping up to the plate for you.

This would be a hoot, particularly NASA. While they have no specific expertise in home audio a rigorous analysis of such tweaks would be delightful.

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So, we won't be getting an in-depth review from you any time soon?

Nope.

But if you front a couple of grand, buy a little selection of them and send them to me I would be happy to do so.

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It is not the consumer's responsibility to establish that the product works (or doesn't).

That has to rank as one of the dumbest things you've ever posted on this forum - and that's saying a lot. People buy audio products because they find what they do "works" for them. If that weren't the case, Stereophile would have ceased its existence in 1963. Even Stereo Review would have quickly been out of business as everything "worked" in their view.

If what you say were true, no audio store would sell a single product - not even a TipToe or an $15 interconnect - without full disclosure of its ability to "work" before the sale was closed.

No phono cartridges could be sold. "What?! you expect me to believe that little thing has a diamond on the end of a flexible wand and it travels around in the groove and makes sound come out of the speakers? How highly unlikely is that?"

How "highly unlikely" is it to the illogical mind you present that a CD player should work?

Should we then extend those same principles to all products? Should the seller of deodorant be forced under penalty of ridicule on Sniffapalooza Magazine's forum (http://www.sniffapaloozamagazine.com/MARIANBENDETHINTERVIEWSEPTEMBER2009...) to prove the efficacy of their product? Should the purveyor of toothpaste be held responsible if their product does not make you more attractive to someone- anyone?

It's your money, you should as careful with it when buying a carbonated beverage - will it really make you feel better about your child's life and their chances at getting into a good college? - as you would a room treatment device.

Though I'm sure you're willing to argue that last point into the ground, Elk.

Obviously, none of that has stopped the industry from dealing with those who trust their ears. If you disagree with that sentiment, you should find another forum that is bigotted to those people with functioning ears because I have sold audio equipment even to those literally without hearing who did not feel compelled to ask for a measurement chart before making a decision. Marlee Matlin, deaf since birth, felt the beat of the music on DWTS. Who is fooling who there?

"Expensive" is only a function of your credit card limit when dealing with an audition if you do not live or visit close to a dealer. As with most audio equipment you have a return policy should your ears fail you. Room treatment devices as sold by ASC are "expensive". Do you insist on their "proof" before you buy them? Do you know they "work" because you've been told they work? How can you prove you are not being duped by placebo when you install such devices? RealTrap installations seem to aim for flat response in the room. Yet numerous listeners have commented on how "un-musical" a certain someone's system sounds. But that system of treatments "works" for you?

These devices are far less "expensive" than most of the speakers reviewed in any audiophile magazine but I don't see you claiming those speaker manufacturers need to prove their product "works". Works for who? Would a pair of Klipschorns work in a New York walk up flat? We don't seem to agree we could all live with one model of loudspeaker. Why do you suppose that is, Elk?

This is just the same ol' dumbed down BS always pushed against this sort of product by the most frightfully deaf and scientifically stunted on this forum.

If you choose your components only by what has been proven to "work" by any other means than an audition, then I suggest you don't belong on this forum. Even Julian Hirsch suggested you use your own ears to make final decisions.

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Geoff, pray tell, why are you posting on a forum for audiophiles?

I think I just answered my own question.

I'm not replying directly to the Brilliant Pebbles person on here since talking to him violates my oath not to take what he posts as worthy of my time. Just agreeing with Buddha

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It is not the consumer's responsibility to establish that the product works (or doesn't).

That has to rank as one of the dumbest things you've ever posted on this forum - and that's saying a lot. People buy audio products because they find what they do "works" for them. If that weren't the case, Stereophile would have ceased its existence in 1963. Even Stereo Review would have quickly been out of business as everything "worked" in their view.

If what you say were true, no audio store would sell a single product - not even a TipToe or an $15 interconnect - without full disclosure of its ability to "work" before the sale was closed.

No phono cartridges could be sold. "What?! you expect me to believe that little thing has a diamond on the end of a flexible wand and it travels around in the groove and makes sound come out of the speakers? How highly unlikely is that?"

How "highly unlikely" is it to the illogical mind you present that a CD player should work?

Should we then extend those same principles to all products? Should the seller of deodorant be forced under penalty of ridicule on Sniffapalooza Magazine's forum (http://www.sniffapaloozamagazine.com/MARIANBENDETHINTERVIEWSEPTEMBER2009...) to prove the efficacy of their product? Should the purveyor of toothpaste be held responsible if their product does not make you more attractive to someone- anyone?

It's your money, you should as careful with it when buying a carbonated beverage - will it really make you feel better about your child's life and their chances at getting into a good college? - as you would a room treatment device.

Though I'm sure you're willing to argue that last point into the ground, Elk.

Obviously, none of that has stopped the industry from dealing with those who trust their ears. If you disagree with that sentiment, you should find another forum that is bigotted to those people with functioning ears because I have sold audio equipment even to those literally without hearing who did not feel compelled to ask for a measurement chart before making a decision. Marlee Matlin, deaf since birth, felt the beat of the music on DWTS. Who is fooling who there?

"Expensive" is only a function of your credit card limit when dealing with an audition if you do not live or visit close to a dealer. As with most audio equipment you have a return policy should your ears fail you. Room treatment devices as sold by ASC are "expensive". Do you insist on their "proof" before you buy them? Do you know they "work" because you've been told they work? How can you prove you are not being duped by placebo when you install such devices? RealTrap installations seem to aim for flat response in the room. Yet numerous listeners have commented on how "un-musical" a certain someone's system sounds. But that system of treatments "works" for you?

These devices are far less "expensive" than most of the speakers reviewed in any audiophile magazine but I don't see you claiming those speaker manufacturers need to prove their product "works". Works for who? Would a pair of Klipschorns work in a New York walk up flat? We don't seem to agree we could all live with one model of loudspeaker. Why do you suppose that is, Elk?

This is just the same ol' dumbed down BS always pushed against this sort of product by the most frightfully deaf and scientifically stunted on this forum.

If you choose your components only by what has been proven to "work" by any other means than an audition, then I suggest you don't belong on this forum. Even Julian Hirsch suggested you use your own ears to make final decisions.

Then buy the product and test them for us oh sage one......sheesh.....please search for "Existing Proof for the Synergistic Research Acoustic ART System" in the Manufacturers Showcase. Mr Denney was the one giving us "proof" so he stuck his neck out wanting us to see how grand they were. Of course it all went sour when his measurements were shown to be error prone with a 500 mS time error. Funny how he never got around to retesting them himself but got his feelings hurt, took his toys and went home. Then JA said he would have a third party test them. Months go by.....THEN he says they are building a dedicated testing room from scratch It takes a special room to be able to test these things? I thought they were so obviously GREAT that anyone can hear the difference .......so yes in my opinion, the manufacturer does have the burden of proof since he yapped about "proof" himself.

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Thanks, if only the powers that be would get off their asses and do something.

Nothing is going to happen.

You are supposed to accept that the sound improves as a tenant of faith.

Agreed, that's why we have such nonsense products for sale.........along with other products like "Not so dumb rocks"

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Then buy the product and test them for us oh sage one......sheesh ...

I hate to be the one who rains on your parade but the product has been tested and reported on in this forum and in the Stereophile blogs by several listeners in several situations.

But, you didn't bother to look for that, did you? That leaves you more room to complain about someone's else's integrity.

The product has been reported on by the Stereophile staff and several forum members. As have dozens of other such devices you don't believe "work". All of these products have been reported on in numerous magazines by independent reviewers none of whom are in collusion with each other or with the manufacturer. The ART system has always garnered favorable reviews whether the listener could explain how it functions or simply trusted their ears.

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The ones who complain that there's no explanation are same ones who complain about the explanation when there is one.

So what would you have me say about this product when you don't believe what has already been said? Why should I take you even as slightly coherent when you refuse to accept the word of the same person you trust to advise you on, say, an amplifier? If I report positive results - just as others have, would you finally believe me? I doubt it. Your dodge is the same old dodge that has been used for years. You won't believe anyone who reports on the device and you won't audition the device for yourself. That leaves you plenty of room to bitch about something you know absolutely zero, zip, nada, nothing, nix, goose egg, naught, bumpkiss about.

When you become consistent in your demands, then you might be taken seriously in your logic.

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I thought they were so obviously GREAT that anyone can hear the difference ...

No, see, you clearly do not understand. Only those people who audition the product can hear the effect. Those people who sit on the sidelines pissin' and moanin' about the integrity and reputation of the designer and about Stereophile not following through on a promised room can't even hear their own stupidity.

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... so yes in my opinion, the manufacturer does have the burden of proof ...

You quoted my entire refutation to Elk's demands and then you just flatly state the burden is on the manufacturer.

Genius, pure genius!

When you start demanding each and every manufacturer of every product you purchase has the same level of responsibility then maybe you could be taken seriously in a hobby that is based upon subjective opinion. As is, you're just another PITA who wants everyone else to do the work for you just so you don't have to believe anything they say.

Read, Dan, read. The information you seek is already in print. And, if you believe nothing you read, then please stop bothering those of us who might.

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That has to rank as one of the dumbest things you've ever posted on this forum - and that's saying a lot.

Jan, this is your opening line. Why do you immediately resort to personal attacks? These do not further any argument you may have.

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People buy audio products because they find what they do "works" for them.

Yes, although in this context the word "work" does in fact need the quotation marks you placed around it.

An audiophile does need to try a specific component in their own system to see if is compatible with their other components and whether they like the overall sound. That is, does it "work" with their system.

This is totally different than whether the product does anything, or acts as claimed. That is, does it function? Does it do anything? Does it work? This is the question I am asking.

Here the manufacturer claims that these little sculptures will objectively and measurably improve the sound. Yet, it only offered flawed test results. It then promised a purpose built dedicated testing room and further test results. None have been forthcoming.

I expect all audio manufactures to offer products that actually function in the real, not fantasy, world. It is their responsibility to do so.

I similarly expect a set of spark plug wires to carry adequate current from the coil to the plugs once installed.

Executive summary:

I expect all products to actually function for the purpose intended, to work as claimed.

It is the burden of the manufacturer to produce such products.

Once this burden is met, it is the responsibility of the consumer to determine whether the product meets his needs at a price he is willing to pay.

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Then buy the product and test them for us oh sage one......sheesh ...

I hate to be the one who rains on your parade but the product has been tested and reported on in this forum and in the Stereophile blogs by several listeners in several situations.

But, you didn't bother to look for that, did you? That leaves you more room to complain about someone's else's integrity.

The product has been reported on by the Stereophile staff and several forum members. As have dozens of other such devices you don't believe "work". All of these products have been reported on in numerous magazines by independent reviewers none of whom are in collusion with each other or with the manufacturer. The ART system has always garnered favorable reviews whether the listener could explain how it functions or simply trusted their ears.

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The ones who complain that there's no explanation are same ones who complain about the explanation when there is one.

So what would you have me say about this product when you don't believe what has already been said? Why should I take you even as slightly coherent when you refuse to accept the word of the same person you trust to advise you on, say, an amplifier? If I report positive results - just as others have, would you finally believe me? I doubt it. Your dodge is the same old dodge that has been used for years. You won't believe anyone who reports on the device and you won't audition the device for yourself. That leaves you plenty of room to bitch about something you know absolutely zero, zip, nada, nothing, nix, goose egg, naught, bumpkiss about.

When you become consistent in your demands, then you might be taken seriously in your logic.

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I thought they were so obviously GREAT that anyone can hear the difference ...

No, see, you clearly do not understand. Only those people who audition the product can hear the effect. Those people who sit on the sidelines pissin' and moanin' about the integrity and reputation of the designer and about Stereophile not following through on a promised room can't even hear their own stupidity.

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... so yes in my opinion, the manufacturer does have the burden of proof ...

You quoted my entire refutation to Elk's demands and then you just flatly state the burden is on the manufacturer.

Genius, pure genius!

When you start demanding each and every manufacturer of every product you purchase has the same level of responsibility then maybe you could be taken seriously in a hobby that is based upon subjective opinion. As is, you're just another PITA who wants everyone else to do the work for you just so you don't have to believe anything they say.

Read, Dan, read. The information you seek is already in print. And, if you believe nothing you read, then please stop bothering those of us who might.

The product has been subjectively tested......you do know what that means don't you? That means someone gave it a "listen" No measurements, no objectivity, just opinion. That's hardly hard facts now is it? Nice how you start off by being a real jerk from the beginning but that's par for the course around here it seems. Yes I already saw the "reviews" on here, did YOU bother to read the thread where Ted Denney had "proof" that his do-dads work? I'm guessing you didn't so don't go off on me when you can't be asked to READ. Other than this, there's not any real reason to reply to you anymore since you come across as a complete fool who insults others from the start. Did someone piss in your Wheaties today or something? Try responding in a courtious way and you won't be getting smacked around like you got in this reply

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Jan, this is your opening line. Why do you immediately resort to personal attacks? These do not further any argument you may have.

Why? Because someone needs to shout real loud at you and tell you what you are posting is absolutely the dumbest thing imaginable. And because whatever I post you ignore anyway. There is no "furthering the arugument" with you, Elk, you are oblivious. No matter what anyone posts you and Dave and the rest of the fools have already made up your mind and nothing said is going to change it. So, you shot the first barage, now it's just a matter of how long this goes before SM closes this thread. That's how this stuff works on this forum. The naysayers have their concreted in position and a few of the more resonable people here defend what is right against you guys, the Glen Beck's of the audio world. Finally, the Nazi references get too thick and SM says that's enough. I have no problem with that since you started this with the same old crap you always roll out. I know you guys just copy/paste the same stuff to all these threads and just like you totally ignored my response to your post, you just keep repeating the same old BS over and over and over without an inkling of knowledge about what you are screaming at. Then you'll complain my posts are too long because you can say the same crap over again just by copy/pasting it. What turnip truck did you fall off of, Elk?

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An audiophile does need to try a specific component in their own system to see if is compatible with their other components and whether they like the overall sound. That is, does it "work" with their system.

This is totally different than whether the product does anything, or acts as claimed. That is, does it function? Does it do anything? Does it work? This is the question I am asking.

OK, I take it back. That is the dumbest thing you've ever posted!

In a subjective opinion world, how do you do that? Not by reading the ad copy from Pioneer telling you their HT receiver line is the best ever. You do it by listening, Elk. You don't want to listen, you don't get to bitch about something you aren't interested in. Go complain Stereophile doesn't review enough MP3 players and leave the rest of us alone.

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It then promised a purpose built dedicated testing room and further test results

"It" didn't promise anything of the sort. You literally have no f'ing idea what you're jabbering on about but you just keep posting no matter what. You weren't even on the forum at the time Ted made his comments so how would you know what was promised and what was not? By reading Dave's posts? Good source of information there, Elk. Dave can't even find the comments made about the ART system that are clearly posted on this forum and on the Stereophile blogs. That makes Dave the blinder leading the blindest.

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I expect all audio manufactures to offer products that actually function in the real, not fantasy, world. It is their responsibility to do so.

I expect people to do some work for themself and not to live in a fantasy world that ignores all relevant posts on this forum and the Stereophile blogs, that's what I expect. The ART system has been reported on in this forum and on the Stereophile blogs numerous times in various situations and with differnt music in dissimilar rooms. And it has always received good comments.

How many times do I have to repeat this fact? If you want information on the system, read those comments. If you aren't interested in the ART system because it's too "expensive" (this from the man who buys high end motorcycles as if they were toys), what are you bitching about in the first place? If you aren't interested in buying it and you're all too lazy to audition it or even read about it on this forum, what's it matter to you guys?

Where did you ask for proof of the RealTraps systems? Don't tell me you believe their ads when the people who have actually listened to his system - to the person and including the "official" Stereophile reviewer - claim his system is not very musical.

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I've visited Ethan Winer's main listening room and studio, and my suspicion is that both are overdamped

Ya know, Davey boy, you don't have to repost my entire post just to pad what little you have to say. Don't use me to make yourself look better than you really are.

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The product has been subjectively tested......you do know what that means don't you? That means someone gave it a "listen"

What a concept! You know, I bet if you started a magazine based on subjective listening, it might just catch on.

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That's hardly hard facts now is it?

What's facts? That the system has always been reported to be effective? That's a fact. If you want more than that from a subjective review magazine, maybe you better start reading "Electronic House".

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Nice how you start off by being a real jerk from the beginning but that's par for the course around here it seems.

Yes, you've been doing it for 86 posts now, most of them on this thread and all of them complaining about something. You're not big on positive contributions, are you, Davey?

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. Yes I already saw the "reviews" on here, did YOU bother to read the thread where Ted Denney had "proof" that his do-dads work? I'm guessing you didn't ...

I have a difficult time believing you read that thread when you ask me if I know of it. I participated in it, you fool! But you didn't see that either I suppose. When remedial reading is beyond your skills, maybe this hifi thing is something you might want to reconsider.

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Other than this, there's not any real reason to reply to you anymore ...

I'm hoping that's a promise.

But like all of your little cohorts, I know you sneak a peak just to know what I have to say. Tell you what, don't ever post anything in response to anything I say and I'll try my best not to call you what you are. Cause, believe me, with the utter lack of intelligence you are displaying here, I'll have to resort to my own copy/paste version of "What is Dave" really soon.

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Try responding in a courtious way and you won't be getting smacked around like you got in this reply

No!

And I'm just going to break down and cry now that you've smacked me around like you did. My feelings are sooooo hurt.

ROTFLMAO at you.

Jan Vigne is the new Michigan J Frog. Yes that's obvious folks. Just look at his rants lately.He's ANGRY GRRRRRRRRR watch out he might bite your fingers or worse, insult youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu."Lets ignore the basic facts by trying to turn things around on the poster" is his latest style it seems. What a pathetic joke.Too bad he doesn't even attempt to accept the facts but just rants on and on and on.

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Other than this, there's not any real reason to reply to you anymore ...

I'm hoping that's a promise.

See there? I knew before you even posted that who you really were, you are a liar and a scum bag.

You forgot to change the title of this thread to "What a horrible person Jan is".

Well, at least you didn't try copying one of my entire posts into this just to make it appear you're smarter than you ever could be. I suppose we need to be thankful for whatever improvements in your rotten little attitude we can accomplish.

You have no knowledge of anything - certainly nothing you've complained about on this thread for the last seven pages - and you're really only here to bitch about what other people do. So, like most small minded, habitual complainers, you have to resort to ad hominem attacks toward anyone who calls you out for what you are.

Genius, pure genius!

Let's see, how did Elk put it?

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Why do you immediately resort to personal attacks? These do not further any argument you may have.

Of course, at the time we only had your word for it that you had anything that resembled an "argument" instead of just a bitch. Now all doubt has been removed. You got nuthin'. You're just another royal PITA in a long line of PITA's who want to lead other people around to satisfy your own puny, never accomplished anything on your own ego.

OK, Elk, it's your duty to call the person you are following over the cliff a ninny and a nicompoop. (Feel free to throw in a few of your other trite phrases of condemnation.)

As for you, Davey, I'm still just ROTFLMAO at you. The thread is about something other than me. I have no problem being Michigan's counterpart. He and I both saw the arrogance, stupidity and hypocrisy of those who insist on pissing on anyone they disagree with. All when you are too lazy or too stupid to even read a thread or a blog. So, you demand everything from others while doing absolutely nothing to help yourself. If you're here to be the new "you know who", then I'm here to take you down every time you open your yap. You stop and I stop, that's the deal.

You came here looking for a fight or else you would have actually contributed something to this forum other than the scum you've posted everytime you plant your name on something. I do contribute to the workings of this forum, even Elk has said so. You? you just take a shit on everything you dislike and you dislike anyone who can think for themself or accomplish something of worth. Like most of your ilk, you dislike knowledge and are incredibly proud to remain willfully ignorant of the world around you. You can't even figure out where you're supposed to plant your ass to find the information you demand from others so you just show your ass off all the time in every post.

This thread isn't about me. And it isn't about you and your demands. The people who are giving you "support" (what exactly are they doing to provide this support? sending you cash donations?) are the same one's who gave dup and Ethan support and look what that got them. It's kind of like having Newt Gingrich say he supports you. You might want to run away from that kind of help, these are the rest of the clan who aren't even brave enough to be out front. They lurk under the counters and hang from low branches to snipe whenever they sense the opportunity. And should you wise up to that fact, they will turn on you too. What a group you make!

Elk, do your duty and give Davey some of your patented Elk "no I didn't bother to read your post or consider anything you have to say" wisdom repeated over and over and over again.

I'm going to think a lot less of you, Elk, if you don't play fair and criticize Davey now the same way you criticized me.

Let'im have it, fella!

Oh Great...here we go again

Jan, things are so much more peaceful when you lay low...

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Why? Because someone needs to shout real loud at you and tell you what you are posting is absolutely the dumbest thing imaginable.

<big, big snip>

How do you spell "pathetic"?

Jan, many of us are willing to engage you in discussion, but your responses are not conducive to any sort of conversation.

Sadly, you appear to even have missed that I agree with your fundamental premise. You wrote: "People buy audio products because they find what they do 'works' for them."

I responded: "An audiophile does need to try a specific component in their own system to see if is compatible with their other components and whether they like the overall sound."

That is, we agree on this point.

But this is not the issue at hand. Of course, one can buy anything and see if it affects one's music listening. But before this most of us want an understanding of the product itself.

Thus, I continue and explain "This is totally different than whether the product does anything, or acts as claimed. That is, does it function? Does it do anything? Does it work?" How does it work?

Do you have responses to these questions? If as "dumb" as you assert there should be no difficulty in answering.

The distinction between the ART devices and Real Traps is basic. Real Traps are based upon well known acoustic principles, supported by test results. They work. We know that other similar acoustic treatments work and are, in fact, employed world-wide in concert halls, recording studios, mastering suites and home listening spaces.

Thus it is reasonable for an audiophile to decide to try Real Traps' products or that of a competitor to see for themselves if they are compatible with his system.

The ART products have no apparent relation to acoustic science nor such a track record. Instead, they are hideously expensive, pretty, with no apparent function other than that baldly claimed by the purveyor.

NB: Perhaps you and others can specifically address if they actually do anything, how they work and how this fits into acoustic theory.

If you know, please share. If you don't know, that's fine.

Geegolly whizzikers, mr. ncdrawl, you just don't know how not to look at what you don't like, do you? All you know is how to bitch about stuff. Don't tell me, you and Dave are sharing the same brain. What afternoons do you get to use it? 'Cause it's obvious he ain't putting it to good use.

There was nothing quiet here while I was "laying low". You were still here and that alone is a disruptuion to the cosmos.

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The distinction between the ART devices and Real Traps is basic. Real Traps are based upon well known acoustic principles, supported by test results.

Sorry to inform you that ship sailed a long time ago. What you refer to as "well known acoustic principles" have gone the way of the dinosaur while you, one assumes, weren't looking.

What do we have to thank for that? Tchang's Acoustic Resonators, Shun Mook Mpingo Disc, an array of crystal-based products from at least three manufacturers, Schumann Frequency Generators, the Red X Coordinate Pen, Silver Rainbow Foil, Tice Clock, Clever Clock, cryogenics, directionality of wire, colorization of CDs, demagnetization of LPs and CDs and cables, de-ionizers, magic chips, Shakti Hallographs. To name a few.

It's a global conspiracy. Wake up and smell the coffee.

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What do we have to thank for that? Tchang's Acoustic Resonators, Shun Mook Mpingo Disc, an array of crystal-based products from at least three manufacturers, Schumann Frequency Generators, the Red X Coordinate Pen, Silver Rainbow Foil, Tice Clock, Clever Clock, cryogenics, directionality of wire, colorization of CDs, demagnetization of LPs and CDs and cables, de-ionizers, magic chips, Shakti Hallographs. To name a few.

It's a global conspiracy. Wake up and smell the coffee.

This is not directed at Geoff.

The beauty of most of those items is that they allow many audiophiles to spend so much time on everything else, that they are spared listening to music as much.

______

Back to the subject at hand...

Geoff, what rig are you running at home right now?

Any pics?

Uh, you missed the remarks to D'boy criticizing him for his rudenees.

OK, I warned you, I now think less of you - and I didn't really believe that was possible.

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Jan, many of us are willing to engage you in discussion, but your responses are not conducive to any sort of conversation.

Elk, I've made numerous attempts to engage you in a discussion. Someone - like you - who totaly ignores whatever is posted and simply copy/pastes the same response over and over and over ("mic position" ring a bell?) does not make for an enlightening conversation and certainly does not make for a "discussion".

You are so myopic you don't see that I have always been perfectly willing to engage anyone who doesn't come here with an obvious chip on their shoulder towards people with whom they disagree and a blinding inability to allow other people the right to their opinions. You even have the rude concept that you get to burst into a thread about the Grateful Dead to tell those engaged in the thread just how stupid they are for liking the music. I don't get that on this forum, why do so many of you feel you just need to piss in someone else's Cheerios? And then you have the balls to complain about me taking offense at your rudeness!

Elk, you fit that bill of a chip holder and being blinded by your insurmountable inability to hear anything of value in anything you haven't approved of.

Let's see ...

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The ART products have no apparent relation to acoustic science nor such a track record. Instead, they are hideously expensive, pretty, with no apparent function other than that baldly claimed by the purveyor.

Yep! That fits the bill of someone who isn't about to entertain any other idea than what you have already decided. So why should I bother with any of your questions? You don't read my responses, that's clear to see, and you absolutely ignore anything I post. You aren't looking to have your mind changed or even to gain any knowledge of the ART product. If that were the case, you would, 1) read about the devices and understand what is being said and 2) audition the products at your leisure with the understanding they come with a full money back guarantee. Instead you sit on this forum not reading about the devices or how they might operate and you do nothing to further your experience with something you do not understand. Now, substitute "Muslim" or "Jew" or any other ethnic group for "device" and you would be a flaming bigot by any reasonable person's standards. It's the same thing, you have a firm prejudice which you repeatedly state (and like most bigots you don't even recognize it when you do it) and you refuse to do anything to resolve that bigotry. Because it's audio, you think you have a right to be a horse's ass about this.

Geeeeez!

We do not agree on the points you mentioned, Elk, so don't convince yourself we do. You don't see the simple connection between the logical step of choosing a component based on an audition and making the effort to actually perform an audition. We've been down this road before - a dozen times for hundreds and hundreds of pages - and you didn't budge. You've made up your mind and you've decided who you will side with and who you will not criticize no matter what they say or do to the "other side" (D'boy still needs to be "roughed up" or "spanked" or however he likes to put it - he worries me when he says stuff like that, does he you?) and you aren't looking to change or else you wouldn't have posted the dribble you just did.

You don't understand something and that makes it voodoo. Just like with Jim the other day, you didn't hear about this in the limited scope of information you care to intake and so it just doesn't exist and it can't work. His blind spot was Bush and your's is audio. If you don't already know it, it doesn't and cannot be real. Isn't that big of you to make yourself the center of the known universe and the rest of us are just along for the ride at your pleasure!

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The distinction between the ART devices and Real Traps is basic. Real Traps are based upon well known acoustic principles, supported by test results.

And we've been down this road how many times? You know what you know and you're happy that is all you need to know because you don't think there's anything else to know. Here's something for you to think about because this thread is not about how the ART system works; you didn't know anything about how TubeTraps work until you were exposed to them. Someone thought of a product, experimented and made money. Now, just because they have graphs telling you something you believe, you think this is "accepted" science. You can't audition a graph, Elk! TubeTraps work because you can hear the effect when you audition them. Now, what's the next logical step when it comes to the ART system? C'mon, Elk, you know the answer.

I'm not going to waste my time with this because you aren't paying any attention. Just try this, several designers came up with similar concepts all at about then same time. None of those designers called the others and said, "Let's make something that doesn't work, but we'll all share in the profits." Now, wouldn't that imply to the logical mind there might be something to the concept at work here? Also consider numerous listeners - some of whom you have access to right here on this forum - have all given the various systems positive reviews. None of those people called the others and said, "I'm buying something that doesn't work and I'd like you to give it a good review."

Are you catching on to any of this, Elk?

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How does it work?

Here's a little quote from an on line review of a product you also wouldn't audition ...

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Jerry will not disclose what is inside or what is really going on with the Pulse Gen ZX. Jerry tends to not want to share what he has learned from years of experimenting in how to get things dead quiet. Can't blame him for that as that is how he pays his bills ...

Got that? Ted is also under no obligation to tell you how his product operates or disclose anything about his product other than you get to audition it at his expense.

So why aren't you auditioning it? I know, because you've already made up your mind "The ART products have no apparent relation to acoustic science nor such a track record. Instead, they are hideously expensive, pretty, with no apparent function other than that baldly claimed by the purveyor."

So you're bigotted. See, we've cleared that up during this little "discussion" we're having.

Do I have any idea how the ART system does it's thing? Sure, I've read the materials and I've had a few email conversations with Ted. Have I auditioned the system? Not yet, Ted has made the offer but my life isn't going to allow that much time right now. Actually, Ted made the offer open ended at no cost to me because he appreciated that I told you guys to buzz off when all you could do was rag on him, his integrity and his company. It just isn't going to work out for awhile on my end. And because the devices are "hideously" difficult to manufactuer, I'm not about to take a sale away from him when they wouldn't be put to use in my system right now. But he did give me a few suggestions for substitute products I had on hand and they have clearly been headed down the right path.

So, yes, I have an idea how the system operates and you could too if you did some reading and conversing with an open mind in place. That's not going to happen any more than you're going to have paid attention to this post. So, what's the point?

This thread isn't about how the ART system operates or whether it does or does not. The former can be solved to some extent by opening your mind and the latter by performing an audition. If you're not willing to do either, why should I bother?

Executive summary; Ted is under no obligation to "prove" anything to you other than he can allow you an audition. If you want to know more about the system, I suggest you take him up on his offer.

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Back to the subject at hand...

Geoff, what rig are you running at home right now?

Any pics?

Time for a new MD tweak...

"The Shiny Penny" for your tonearm!

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Time for a new MD tweak...

"The Shiny Penny" for your tonearm!

I'm crushed you didn't comment on my speaker resonators. They convert mechanical vibration to heat. Patent pending.

Are you the designer and manufacturer of those?

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Time for a new MD tweak...

"The Shiny Penny" for your tonearm!

I'm crushed you didn't comment on my speaker resonators. They convert mechanical vibration to heat. Patent pending.

I can tell by the flames how you have succeeded beyond our wildest imaginations, yet again!

Converted to heat, obviously!

Exactly!

Glad to see you finally understand. What took you so long?

Back to the questions I had and still have and others also still have, I said earlier........ "Mr Denney was the one giving us "proof" so he stuck his neck out wanting us to see how grand they were. Of course it all went sour when his measurements were shown to be error prone with a 500 mS time error. Funny how he never got around to retesting them himself but got his feelings hurt, took his toys and went home. Then JA said he would have a third party test them. Months go by.....THEN he says they are building a dedicated testing room from scratch It takes a special room to be able to test these things? I thought they were so obviously GREAT that anyone can hear the difference .......so yes in my opinion, the manufacturer does have the burden of proof since he yapped about "proof" himself."

So either address these points and if you can't than butt out Jan not need apply since all he can do is bitch bitch bitch and Geoff only talks about "la la land" devices similar to the ones he sells to the gullible.

I'm guessing you think you're out of the woods and in the clear now that Elk has shown his weasel side and not reproached
your insolence.

Not quite, I will continue to hound Elk with repeated posts over and over and over again concerning his rodent like lack of consistency in such matters.

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I thought they were so obviously GREAT that anyone can hear the difference .......

It's obvious you can't be relied on to remember a damn thing. To which I must ask, how the hell do you continue to find your way back to this forum?

I addressed this issue previously and now a single day later you don't remember the answer. Well, for the sake of the terminally inexact, here it is again ...

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No, see, you clearly do not understand. Only those people who audition the product can hear the effect. Those people who sit on the sidelines pissin' and moanin' about the integrity and reputation of the designer and about Stereophile not following through on a promised room can't even hear their own stupidity.

There, take your time and read that over and over and over as if it were a response from Elk. You "thought" something but it is apparent to anyone with the common sense of a biscuit that you can't think your way out of a basket of flowers. To the rest of us with the common sense of at least the average person you are employing hyperbole in an attempt to make a non-existent and fraudulent argument. This is no different than bitching about those $15k speaker cables that are so popular with your crowd of peanut throwers. Neither actually exists and neither is relevant to the discussion but, in your utterly simple minded way, you all believe repeating something over and over and over makes that "thing" factual. It does not but shake hands with the politicians.

Honestly, D'boy, if this is what you "think" the rest of that crowd is supporting you to do, you are on the loosing end of a poorly managed campaign. Say "hello" to Rand Paul - you two have alot in common despite the fact he has a live and let live approach to life while you feel it is your place to police the world.

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"Mr Denney was the one giving us "proof" so he stuck his neck out wanting us to see how grand they were. Of course it all went sour when his measurements were shown to be error prone with a 500 mS time error. Funny how he never got around to retesting them himself but got his feelings hurt, took his toys and went home

Quite an assumption all the way around. If you had read the testing thread which Ted himself began, you would also know that no one here - not even the loudest screamer and most vehement attacker of Mr Denney's integrity - got the measurements right either. But throwing cowturds at someone you dislike for no other reason than they are being productive and you are not is alot more fun than being right, isn't it? Possibly, as with most small audio manufacturers, Ted is busy designing, building and retailing his product line in order to keep his company and his livelyhood intact.

Here, since you don't learn from your past mistakes, I'm certain you missed this too ...

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Jerry will not disclose what is inside or what is really going on with the Pulse Gen ZX. Jerry tends to not want to share what he has learned from years of experimenting in how to get things dead quiet. Can't blame him for that as that is how he pays his bills ...

Well, for godssake! What's more important, keeping your business afloat and your family and workers fed and healthy or responding to malcontents like you on a forum?

Never mind, you don't get how the audio business works so you won't have a good answer to that question. You too believe you are the center of the known universe (and by "known" we all realize there is nothing that exists unless you say it exists and nothing that can function unless you say it can do so and you do not dispense those perogatives lightly or with any real thought - you demand "support"!) and we all should jump to those demands no matter how ridiculous and closeminded they become.

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THEN he says they are building a dedicated testing room from scratch It takes a special room to be able to test these things?

I believe JA said they were in the planning stages of a room. I could be wrong, I'm not here to defend JA, he can do that for himself. And, I admit on this issue, since I was away for awhile statements might have been made that I possible could have missed. You see, I had to leave for a moment as the air around here had become quite putrid with the stench of arrogance from a certain few who feel they are the center of the known universe and they alone can demand and condemn while the rest of us must simply kowtow to their wishes and we must all reside within their worldview never once thinking of the "outside world" and the wonders it might hold.

Wasn't that the moral of so many of the old "Twilight Zone" episodes? That no one gets to determine anyone else's thoughts and lifestyle? I suppose you disapprove of such morality lessons, eh, D'boy?

Since it is always the fact in your little universe that anything you deem to be true is so and anything you deem to be a lie is even more implicitly so, you'll have to ask JA about his statement. But, you don't suppose the ecomony might have some effect on this, do you? I mean, I'm sure you're doing swell in this ecomony since you have so much time to devote to bitching on this forum but possibly some others might have had plans delayed. Like I said, take this up with JA and leave Ted out of it.

Plans change, live with it. What difference does it actually make to you whether this gets done or not? You have no interest in the ART products. Why don't you just content yourself by reading the RealTraps review again and this time concentrate on ...

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I've visited Ethan Winer's main listening room and studio, and my suspicion is that both are overdamped

Ethan (DavidL),
Hiding behind phony names while attacking your competitor and misrepresenting statements and events is both unprofessional and cowardly. As evidenced by your actions, you are both. If you don

I'm closing this thread for now, for the sake of the forum, until we can get a clearer picture of the situation.

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Ethan (DavidL),
Hiding behind phony names while attacking your competitor and misrepresenting statements and events is both unprofessional and cowardly.

Ted, I wish you would have come to me first, privately, with these claims, rather than posting them for the world to see, in a venue which does not allow Ethan Winer to defend himself. Your decision to post here was not fair, and violates our simple rule:

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The Stereophile forum is not to be used by manufacturers as a pulpit to promote their products or discredit the products of others.

Therefore, I ask that you please do not post in this manner again. If you do, you will be banned from our forum.

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As you know Ethan I was the one who discovered a glitch in the REW software that led to a 500ms delay in the files and it was I who alerted the group to the error. Since this time I have found REW <snip> to be of limited use aside from setting up a subwoofer.

Since my first measurements I have determined the effect of the Acoustic ART System cannot be proved by measurements taken with the REW application.

This appears reasonable and kudos to you for disclosing the limitations of the problem once you learned of them.

Have you tried another acoustic measurement system such as ETF?

Do you believe that the differences you hear with the ART system in place can be detected by a sophisticated acoustic measurement system?

Curiously,

Elk

I previously asked: "Perhaps you and others can specifically address if they actually do anything, how they work and how this fits into acoustic theory."

Jan, you now state

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So, yes, I have an idea how the system operates . . .

Excellent! It would be wonderful if you would now share this information.

You asked

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So why aren't you auditioning it?

As I previously replied to Geoff: "if you front a couple of grand, buy a little selection of them and send them to me I would be happy to do so."

I make the same offer to you: send me the $3,000.00 necessary to buy the system. I would be delighted to try it in both my main listening room and my studio, two totally different acoustic environments.

I'd also love just to see these objects; I bet they are even more gorgeous in person than in pictures.

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You even have the rude concept that you get to burst into a thread about the Grateful Dead to tell those engaged in the thread just how stupid they are for liking the music.

No, Jan. This never happened.

Another member posted in reference to GD albums "They all suck equally bad." I quoted this statement and replied "GD is an acquired taste."

This is, if anything, a defense of those that like GD. In fact, a number commented that they indeed found GD an acquired taste, and one that they acquired.

Perhaps if you focus on the topic rather than on personal attacks you will stop seeing things that are not there.

You now have a wonderful opportunity and a specific request to share the information you claim to possess. I, and others, are interested.

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Excellent! It would be wonderful if you would now share this information.

For godssake, Elk, it isn't that difficult to come up with "ideas" if you have been paying attention. What's difficult is coming up with a system that actually works. That's what Ted has managed and now you want someone to just tell you everything he did to get to that point.

What have you done to help yourself in this matter? Anything at all or are you just waiting for someone to serve this up on a platter to you?

No, Elk, if you want to consider how the system might be operating, you'll have to do it on your own time. Do some reading, do some thinking and, most of all, do an audition of the product. It wouldn't even do you any good should I explain my thoughts on the subject if you are still totally blind to everything else about the subject.

But, what's this?! I see you've already made up your mind how these devices operate ...

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They are pretty enough I would be tempted if they were not the equivalent of some good, legitimate room treatments or a lot of music.

So it's clear that neither my nor geoff's intervention is what's holding you back from performing an audition and thinking for yourself.

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The ones who complain that there's no explanation are same ones who complain about the explanation when there is one.

In your case the one who doesn't audition happens to be the same one who doesn't believe those who do.

For all I know, my theories are not how the system actually operates, they are just my thoughts on the matter. Ted is not divulging any more than most designers would when they are not out looking for copies to be made of their products and money to be made off of their labors. You do understand why that is, don't you?

You're reminding me of those people who post a request for someone to tell them how to fix their component that went up in smoke because they're certain they could manage the repair if only someone told them specifically what to replace and how to do so. Cheapass SOB's!

So, since you are absolutlely unwilling to 1) entertain the open minded idea the ART system performs as reported and 2) help educate yourself about the system's operation my thoughts are my thoughts alone and you get to make up your own mind and not rely on my input. If I were you, I would begin by calling for a set to be sent to your address and then begin your research while you wait for their arrival. By the time they show up your mind should be churning with ideas about just how they manage what has been reported. But I'm not going to help you, you'll have to do this on your own just like the rest of us with curiousity and logic. Sorry, no, I do not know where you can acquire either of those or who would pay for them to be sent to you. Maybe you should ask The Wizard for some help, I understand he dispenses brains, and courage and all sorts of wonderful things you could use.

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As I previously replied to Geoff: "if you front a couple of grand, buy a little selection of them and send them to me I would be happy to do so."

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Ain't that just like a troll, always demanding that someone else do something, preferring the soft comfort of a Barko-lounger.

C'mon, Elk, anyone who can afford a Ducati must have enough on your credit card limit to get a set sent out to you. Why do you insist you be spoonfed everything about this system? Ted has a no obligation return policy. If you were that curious, you would be taking him up on his offer. Don't make this my problem or geoff's. Stop being a weasel.

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I'd also love just to see these objects; I bet they are even more gorgeous in person than in pictures.

Uh-huh! I'm sure that's why you're so excited to have a set in your home; http://www.synergisticresearch.com/how-to-buy/north-america/

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No, Jan. This never happened.

Another member posted in reference to GD albums "They all suck equally bad." I quoted this statement and replied "GD is an acquired taste."

And you expect what from me for that? You're right ncdrawl was the A-hole who made the intial statement. I never stated that you did. That leaves you blameless? "GD is an acquired taste" is your defense?

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Perhaps if you focus on the topic rather than on personal attacks you will stop seeing things that are not there.

Elk, I do believe your entire life on this forum has been about what is not there.

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What have you done to help yourself in this matter?

I've read the materials on the website, which are vague. I have also read a number of reviews such as Jason Victor Serinus' on hometheaterhifi (he loved it) and others, some which are positive and others negative.

The claims are that one can acoustically treat any room, regardless of size or specific acoustic issues, with these devices in lieu of conventional acoustic treatment - a fascinating claim.

This is particularly interesting in that conventional treatments require specific solutions to specific issues. There are a few generic treatments that typically help (such as first order reflections) but beyond this one needs to tailor the solution.

The ART system appears not to need such tailoring, other than placement. I'd love to know how this works.

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For all I know, my theories are not how the system actually operates, they are just my thoughts on the matter.

Understood. But you are indicating that you believe you have an understanding beyond that which is offered on the website. Thus my request that you share. If you don't know this is perfectly OK. I certainly don't.

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You're right ncdrawl was the A-hole who made the intial statement. I never stated that you did.

You mistakenly asserted :"You even have the rude concept that you get to burst into a thread about the Grateful Dead to tell those engaged in the thread just how stupid they are for liking the music." The simple truth is that I never stated "how stupid they are for liking the music", nor did I offer anything negative nor any judgment. This is gratuitous whole cloth fabrication on your part.

In any event, I am certain I am not the only one that is very curious as to how the ART System does what it states it does.

The forum concept is to share ideas and thoughts. You say you have ideas as to how it works. Please share.

Careful Elk, you are being reasonable with and polite to Jan.
In his universe that seems to tranlate to rude and abusive

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The forum concept is to share ideas and thoughts. You say you have ideas as to how it works. Please share.

You have the exact same facilites available to you as I did when I began investigating the devices - with the possible exception that in my conversations with Ted he did not see me as someone who has constantly questioned his intelligence and his integrity. Admittedly, you might be at a slight disadvantage should you identify yourself to Ted with any querries.

Otherwise, there is nothing I have found that you cannot find should you simply open your mind. Ted does not spell out how the system does its thing, you can interpret what has been said by numerous listeners anyway you please but there is no reason for me to lead you in any direction. Better you reach your own conclusions, don't you think? (Silly me! why did I ask that?!)

If you've read the materials, then the next logical step would be to order a set of devices for your own use. If you've financed a studio, you can certainly give these a go without geoff or I footing the bill for you.

So, now what are you waiting for? You can't understand Italy by simply reading about Rome's Spanish Steps.

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The claims are that one can acoustically treat any room, regardless of size or specific acoustic issues, with these devices in lieu of conventional acoustic treatment - a fascinating claim.

I think you are confusing the issues here. Maybe a bit of gratuitous whole cloth fabrication on your part? Each room is different than the next and the differences become even more acute once the space is loaded with pressure waves.

Each room will therefore require individual attention and not all rooms will satisfy with just one approach. You might also benefit from the use of a few of geoff's products to truly bring your music to life or possibly something from Acoustic Revive. Ask geoff about how he proposes integrating his products with your "conventional" treatments and then do some thinking, Elk. That all rooms and all listeners require individual attention would seem only logical to the educated listener.

Need you stuff a room full of absorbent materials to reach a satisfying end result? If you know the downfalls of "conventional" room treatments, you already know the answer to that question. Ask JSV whether he has a room full of refigerator doors.

I take it "GD are an acquired taste" is your defense? Elk, can you name me one type of music or one performer or simply one band/orchestra that is not an acquired taste?

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Careful Elk, you are being reasonable with and polite to Jan.

I hope he sees it this way. This is my intent.

I am honestly intrigued with the Acoustic ART objects, especially given those favorable reviews that are out there.

But they also make zero sense to me, other than the reference on the site to Tibetan prayer bowls. These bowls can and do energize even large spaces to an amazing degree.

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Careful Elk, you are being reasonable with and polite to Jan.

I hope he sees it this way. This is my intent.

I am honestly intrigued with the Acoustic ART objects, especially given those favorable reviews that are out there.

But they also make zero sense to me, other than the reference on the site to Tibetan prayer bowls. These bowls can and do energize even large spaces to an amazing degree.

I was just at a Bruce Cockburn concert and he whacked a large prayer bowl and you could feel it around the room even without it being mic'd.

It's decay seemed to last longer than a Willy Wonka Gobstopper!

We know what the bowls do....vibrate.

Now, beyond the argument that they, in fact, may do nothing, if Ted's bowls do something euphonic, I say go with it.

To me, what is most interesting will be how these are received over time....if they are a sonic one trick pony, or not.

Ted, if you are out there....

The fact that there are positive reviews should not be considered the end of your obligation to search out what effect, if any, these devices have!

If you do, it would be tantamount to saying you came up with these things God knows why and you have no idea what you were doing.

Maybe a history of your development and failures before finding success would be of interest to people.

Are there stacks of 'failed' devices or prototypes that you worked your way through?

how long have these bullies been around? Gotta be 7 years, at least.

Tchang Acoustic Resonators Review

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Ethan (DavidL),
Hiding behind phony names while attacking your competitor and misrepresenting statements and events is both unprofessional and cowardly. As evidenced by your actions, you are both. If you don