You are here

Log in or register to post comments
Lick-T
Lick-T's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: May 14 2006 - 8:04pm
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
Going by what you, Eric and Jason said, it should be so obvious that the effect would be very measurable if these bowls did anything

Are you talking about me? I never heard no damned bowls. Don't drag me into this!

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:
Going by what you, Eric and Jason said, it should be so obvious that the effect would be very measurable if these bowls did anything

Are you talking about me? I never heard no damned bowls. Don't drag me into this!

No no I meant EricArjes who posted a "glowing" review on here of Ted's bowls that Ted's add agency would have been proud of then got his knickers in a wad when I questioned him about some issues regarding the bowls, took his ball and went home Actually it would be safe to say that NO ONE has heard the bowls since they do nothing

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
Measuring the effect, if any, of the bowls is never going to be straightforward. You are looking for a very small change that to a microphone that is not hooked up to a brain, might well be be obscured by the usual measurement artefacts. That is why both the engineer and I felt that the starting point should be a bare room that could be completely characterized, acoustically. Otherwise, we could well up chasing ghosts.

This is exactly what made this so interesting as a project. Additionally the room could be used to test both similar products as well as more conventional tweaks.

For example, I had hoped for testing of vibration control devices such as audio racks.

I am unhappy you are not going forward. A solid vigorous attempt to determine what the bowls do, if anything, would have been fascinating.

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
Are you talking about me? I never heard no damned bowls. Don't drag me into this!

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
I am unhappy you are not going forward. A solid vigorous attempt to determine what the bowls do, if anything, would have been fascinating.

Fascinating, perhaps. Time-consuming, definitely, which is why I wanted a third party to do the work. I already have a full-time job.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

It would indeed be an astounding amount of work.

Buddha
Buddha's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Sep 8 2005 - 10:24am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
It would indeed be an astounding amount of work.

Really?

Why would an empty room be required?

A given room is a relatively static environment....

Measure any room you like, then put the bowls in place and repeat.

I mean, they've heard them work in freaking hotel rooms!

Maybe head over to Motel 6 and measure the room "as is," then put the bowls in and repeat.

Heck, you could even compare the ART Bowls to the coffee cups the room provides.

Maybe you could have Kal hit "analyze" on one of his room correction doodads, then compare the reasulting room corrections with vs. without the bowls.

I smell a distinct "fear of measurement."

Which is OK, if it were just called that.

I mean, here again is a Hi Fi tweak that could alter the entire music reproduction, live sound, theater sound, sound reinforcement, lecture hall, etc...industrial complex! Billions of potential dollars as a potential reward...amazing WAF (sorry, JVS, it's a WAF for my case) implications for the hobby...and "can't be bothered" is the rule of the day.

Amazing how ambition stops once a product gets flung at the Hi Fi hobby.

j_j
j_j's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: Mar 13 2009 - 4:22pm
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
I mean, here again is a Hi Fi tweak that could alter the entire music reproduction, live sound, theater sound, sound reinforcement, lecture hall, etc...industrial complex! Billions of potential dollars as a potential reward...amazing WAF (sorry, JVS, it's a WAF for my case) implications for the hobby...and "can't be bothered" is the rule of the day.

That's hardly all. It would show that the Theile-Small woofer parameters and design methods were utterly faulty, and could not possibly work. It would also imply that Carnegie Hall would sound different, that Avery Fisher would sound even worse, and more, IF THE EFFECT OF THESE DEVICES IS ACTUALLY MEASURABLE IN THE ROOM'S SOUNDFIELD.

If, of course, it's a placebo, none of that applies.

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:
I am unhappy you are not going forward. A solid vigorous attempt to determine what the bowls do, if anything, would have been fascinating.

Fascinating, perhaps. Time-consuming, definitely, which is why I wanted a third party to do the work. I already have a full-time job.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

A full time job of IGNORING what you promised to do? Yeah, you've been ignoring testing these bowls for the past 2 years so why stop now?

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

Buddha, John never intended to test these things hoping we would all just go away and not bother him about it anymore.My guess is he already measured these things and found that they do NOTHING yet doesn't want to confess that maybe just maybe what he heard at the demo wasn't the magic bowls doing anything but something else going on

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

If, of course, it's a placebo, none of that applies.

Shocking ......oh wait......you're right

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
It would indeed be an astounding amount of work.

Yeah like measuring a speaker is even easier?

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
A solid vigorous attempt to determine what the bowls do, if anything, would have been fascinating.

Fascinating, perhaps. Time-consuming, definitely, which is why I wanted a third party to do the work.

It would indeed be an astounding amount of work.

Yeah like measuring a speaker is even easier?

To the simple, everything appears simple. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
John never intended to test these things hoping we would all just go away and not bother him about it anymore.

It always amazes me when skeptics resort to claims of mind-reading.


Quote:
My guess is he already measured these things and found that they do NOTHING

I have never had the bowls in my possession nor have I attempted to measure what, if anything, they do.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
A solid vigorous attempt to determine what the bowls do, if anything, would have been fascinating.

Fascinating, perhaps. Time-consuming, definitely, which is why I wanted a third party to do the work.

It would indeed be an astounding amount of work.

Yeah like measuring a speaker is even easier?

To the simple, everything appears simple. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

For the simply lazy everyone but himself is accused of being the problem You find lots of time to spend on here posting about the magic bowls (see all the past threads about it) YET you defend your rational of "I'm too busy" to even TRY. Oh and my " Yeah like measuring a speaker is even easier?" quote MEANT that YOU can easily measure a complex loudspeaker YET you can't find the time to measure some simple bowls. So your defense is that I'm simple. Classy way to react to some honest questions about why you don't live up to your promises Atkinson. Now go sit and stare at the wall for the next few hours instead of doing anything productive.

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

It always amazes me when skeptics resort to claims of mind-reading.

Your non-actions speak louder than words

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
my " Yeah like measuring a speaker is even easier?" quote MEANT that YOU can easily measure a complex loudspeaker YET you can't find the time to measure some simple bowls.

I am sorry you find this so perplexing. Yes, a loudspeaker may be complex but there is a clearly defined set of goals it is required to achieve. Measuring a speaker's performance is thus relatively simple, despite its apparent complexity.

With the Synergistic bowls, their apparent simplicity is deceptive, as it is not clear what they actually do, if anything. You can't even start to measure if you don't know what it is you are supposed to be measuring. Thus measuring the effect of the bowls becomes a voyage of discovery and rapidly becomes complex.

Now do you get it?


Quote:
Classy way to react to some honest questions about why you don't live up to your promises Atkinson.

I told you both why the engineer backed away from this project and why I wasn't able to take their place, despite your ongoing demands that I do so.


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
John never intended to test these things hoping we would all just go away and not bother him about it anymore.

It always amazes me when skeptics resort to claims of mind-reading.

Your non-actions speak louder than words

Maybe to someone with your claimed mind-reading abilities, David L. :-)

And again, as you ducked this question a few days back, so I'll ask it again. Are you a subscriber to Stereophile?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:
It would indeed be an astounding amount of work.

Really?

Why would an empty room be required?

I have wondered this as well. I would expect that one needs only a control and then introduction of the object under test.

My assumption however has been that they wanted to create a static room with stable repeatable characteristics in order to measure to a much finer level of resolution than the typical speaker test - which is actually fairly crude.

Either way I would love to see careful legitimate verifiable measurements of the ART products, various disks, devices, etc.

I'm sure Mr. Atkinson has no fear of measurements. In fact my guess is that he would like to see these as much as we would. He appears to me to be insatiably curious when it comes to sound reproduction. (I don't claim mind reading abilities. )

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

I am sorry you find this so perplexing. Yes, a loudspeaker may be complex but there is a clearly defined set of goals it is required to achieve. Measuring a speaker's performance is thus relatively simple, despite its apparent complexity.

With the Synergistic bowls, their apparent simplicity is deceptive, as it is not clear what they actually do, if anything. You can't even start to measure if you don't know what it is you are supposed to be measuring. Thus measuring the effect of the bowls becomes a voyage of discovery and rapidly becomes complex.

Now do you get it?

Oh yeah I get it alright,but you obviously don't. You and others claimed it was so OBVIOUS that the sound was changed so wouldn't that imply an ACOUSTC change since you heard it? You seem to know so much about what they do but then you don't know how to measure them? Hahahahaha that's rich. How about measuring the acoustic frequency difference they have if any on a sound sysytem? Hey no thanks needed for the free help on getting you started on how to do it.

Quote:


Quote:
Classy way to react to some honest questions about why you don't live up to your promises Atkinson.

I told you both why the engineer backed away from this project and why I wasn't able to take their place, despite your ongoing demands that I do so.

Yeah , you've been "busy"


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
John never intended to test these things hoping we would all just go away and not bother him about it anymore.

It always amazes me when skeptics resort to claims of mind-reading.

Your non-actions speak louder than words

Maybe to someone with your claimed mind-reading abilities, David L. :-)

And again, as you ducked this question a few days back, so I'll ask it again. Are you a subscriber to Stereophile?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Oh I'm sorry if I "ducked" the question as you put it, you seem pretty good at ducking questions from others in this thread, not to mention ducking any responsibility on getting these tests done for the what is it now? ......almost 2 years? .........to answer your question so you stop pestering me about it, since you are so "busy"......I used to subscribe years ago but now just read articles online and on the forums. Any other "pressing" questions since you seem so curious about my reading habits instead of measuring bowls?

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:
as you ducked this question a few days back, so I'll ask it again. Are you a subscriber to Stereophile?

to answer your question so you stop pestering me about it, since you are so "busy"......I used to subscribe years ago but now just read articles online and on the forums.

In which case, what makes you think you can demand anything of me or the magazine, David_L?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:
Why would an empty room be required?

My assumption however has been that they wanted to create a static room with stable repeatable characteristics in order to measure to a much finer level of resolution than the typical speaker test - which is actually fairly crude.

Exactly so. The bare room could be completely characterized acoustically, then the _only_ change would be the introduction of the bowls. No furniture, nothing that the effect of which might obscure what was going on. Otherwise, a null result would not really be meaningful.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

j_j
j_j's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: Mar 13 2009 - 4:22pm
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Why would an empty room be required?

My assumption however has been that they wanted to create a static room with stable repeatable characteristics in order to measure to a much finer level of resolution than the typical speaker test - which is actually fairly crude.

Exactly so. The bare room could be completely characterized acoustically, then the _only_ change would be the introduction of the bowls. No furniture, nothing that the effect of which might obscure what was going on. Otherwise, a null result would not really be meaningful.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Well, would one not want to use such a device in-situ, i.e. in a situation where it would normally be used? That is, after all, the question of its application.

A bare room would seem to violate the infamous "range rule".

Buddha
Buddha's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Sep 8 2005 - 10:24am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Why would an empty room be required?

My assumption however has been that they wanted to create a static room with stable repeatable characteristics in order to measure to a much finer level of resolution than the typical speaker test - which is actually fairly crude.

Exactly so. The bare room could be completely characterized acoustically, then the _only_ change would be the introduction of the bowls. No furniture, nothing that the effect of which might obscure what was going on. Otherwise, a null result would not really be meaningful.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Well, would one not want to use such a device in-situ, i.e. in a situation where it would normally be used? That is, after all, the question of its application.

A bare room would seem to violate the infamous "range rule".

J_J, why do you hate JA?

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
as you ducked this question a few days back, so I'll ask it again. Are you a subscriber to Stereophile?

to answer your question so you stop pestering me about it, since you are so "busy"......I used to subscribe years ago but now just read articles online and on the forums.

In which case, what makes you think you can demand anything of me or the magazine, David_L?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

There you go with the "demands" word again, Listen I'd think you would have least the dignity to live up your own word about doing the tests but hey, you don't really give a damn do you? This whole thing has just become a song and dance where you slip out of having to do anything other than make excuses. Anyone that doesn't belong to your little "club" isn't "allowed" to ask questions woooooooooooooooooo Not even fucking trying is pathetic. You'll always come up with some excuse and would rather type 3 pages of drivel than get off your ass and do the tests Frankly I never expected anything less from you Atkinson, you're so GOOD at being mediocre. Prove me wrong. come on, you can do it. Can't you?

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Why would an empty room be required?

My assumption however has been that they wanted to create a static room with stable repeatable characteristics in order to measure to a much finer level of resolution than the typical speaker test - which is actually fairly crude.

Exactly so. The bare room could be completely characterized acoustically, then the _only_ change would be the introduction of the bowls. No furniture, nothing that the effect of which might obscure what was going on. Otherwise, a null result would not really be meaningful.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Well, would one not want to use such a device in-situ, i.e. in a situation where it would normally be used? That is, after all, the question of its application.

A bare room would seem to violate the infamous "range rule".

Don't waste your breath talking to JA, he's already fighting kicking and screaming so he doesn't have to make the tests. I mean they ARE so complicated to do and God forbid I ask anything else because then I'll be "demanding"

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
JA Fails At Getting The Job Done

j_j
j_j's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: Mar 13 2009 - 4:22pm
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
J_J, why do you hate JA?

I don't hate JA. He's not a conservative, and he doesn't Hate America. (for those not in on the joke, tough)

j_j
j_j's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: Mar 13 2009 - 4:22pm
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
Don't waste your breath talking to JA, he's already fighting kicking and screaming so he doesn't have to make the tests. I mean they ARE so complicated to do and God forbid I ask anything else because then I'll be "demanding"

My, my goodness, is it necessary to be so insulting. Give the tsuris about this subject, I'd be very chary of testing the thing, either, for fear I'd be accused of any of

1) Kowtowing to the no-nothings (i.e. scientists and skeptics)
2) Arguing for the paranormal
3) Being "against" my own magazine
4) Spouting "more of that nonsense"

I'd give this "test" the 20 foot insulated pole, myself. But, of course, since the f^2 aspect of bass radiation/absorbtion/etc is well understood, I'd have to remain rather skeptical myself.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 42 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
My, my goodness, is it necessary to be so insulting.

But what else is there? When you're a troll you're a troll all they way, from your first cigarette to your last dying day.

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:
My, my goodness, is it necessary to be so insulting.

But what else is there? When you're a troll you're a troll all they way, from your first cigarette to your last dying day.

Buddha
Buddha's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Sep 8 2005 - 10:24am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

Maybe we could arrange a bowl measuring session in an anechoic chamber, or JA could mount them on his outdoor measuring stool.

At least we could get their measure independent of a room, eh?

Orb
Orb's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: May 28 2009 - 12:51am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

Bah if anyone intends to use pictures to insult, how about some that are a bit more scientific, such as these (interesting and gross at the same time I must admit).

I now feel even more queasy about maggots.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/pictu...nd-spiders.html

Passes a few minutes of boredom anyway

Cheers
Orb

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:
The bare room could be completely characterized acoustically, then the _only_ change would be the introduction of the bowls. No furniture, nothing that the effect of which might obscure what was going on. Otherwise, a null result would not really be meaningful.

Well, would one not want to use such a device in-situ, i.e. in a situation where it would normally be used? That is, after all, the question of its application.

A bare room would seem to violate the infamous "range rule".

Good point. My reasoning goes thusly: First find out if what, if anything, the bowl does; then see it it matters under usual circumstances.

Our troll, BTW, keeps assuming I am an advocate of the bowls. I am not. I reported what I perceived under Show conditions. That is a valid datapoint. I see no point in coloring my perceptions to meet my expectations.

But the question remains whether the bowls were affecting the sound or were affecting _me_. Personally, I suspect this is an example of the "Hawthorne Effect," ie, if you make _any_ change to the environment of the experience, listeners will tend to perceive an improvement.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
The bare room could be completely characterized acoustically, then the _only_ change would be the introduction of the bowls. No furniture, nothing that the effect of which might obscure what was going on. Otherwise, a null result would not really be meaningful.

Well, would one not want to use such a device in-situ, i.e. in a situation where it would normally be used? That is, after all, the question of its application.

A bare room would seem to violate the infamous "range rule".

Good point. My reasoning goes thusly: First find out if what, if anything, the bowl does; then see it it matters under usual circumstances.

Our troll, BTW, keeps assuming I am an advocate of the bowls. I am not. I reported what I perceived under Show conditions. That is a valid datapoint. I see no point in coloring my perceptions to meet my expectations.

But the question remains whether the bowls were affecting the sound or were affecting _me_. Personally, I suspect this is an example of the "Hawthorne Effect," ie, if you make _any_ change to the environment of the experience, listeners will tend to perceive an improvement.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

But so far and according to you, you won't be "First find out if what, if anything, the bowl does; then see it it matters under usual circumstances." you've made it clear that you have no time or interest in testing the bowls yet day after day you find plenty of time to respond to posts on here

John, do you always take what you hear at Show conditions as being legit and not something else going on? You were probably influenced by the placebo effect.I think going by the past threads on here where you spent lots of time advocating why the bowls work is proof enough that you think they do something.So you have no interest or curiosity to even pursue testing them any longer based upon you being "busy" and your "engineer" friend is afraid of the Big Bad David's questions Fair enough, we understand you just don't care to test them but if this is the case then you should also drop talking about them as this kind of makes you out as being a "Do what I say and not I as do" person.

Oh by the way, if I'm a a troll for asking questions that needed to be asked because you dropped the ball for 2 years then

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
Maybe we could arrange a bowl measuring session in an anechoic chamber, or JA could mount them on his outdoor measuring stool.

At least we could get their measure independent of a room, eh?

John doesn't want to make any tests of the bowls, he's made that clear. Well neither has Ted Denney for that matter after his REW fiasco. haven't seen Ted anywhere online in a long time ......maybe that's a good thing

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
you've made it clear that you have no time or interest in testing the bowls...

You object to being referred to as "simple," David L, but given your apparent lack of reading comprehension, it is difficult to reach any other conclusion. First, I was indeed interested in testing the bowls and commissioned an independent engineer with the necessary expertise in acoustic measurements to perform those tests. Contrary to your belief, I did not say that I _personally_ was going to do the testing.

When that engineer backed away from the project, I did not volunteer to take over the tesing. As I explained to you but you seem to have not comprehended, I simply do not have the time to undertake a project like this. I already work a 60-hour week on the magazine. Your ongoing demands - or would you rather I use the words "suggestion" or "polite request"? - that I take over the measurement project are a baseless projection on your part.

If I find another engineer who is willing to take on the work, then that's something in which I would be interested, but as JJ has pointed out to you, there are many reasons why engineers are unwilling to get involved in this kind of work.


Quote:
John, do you always take what you hear at Show conditions as being legit and not something else going on?

The comparisons were not blind, of course, but the Ted Denney Show tests were not rigged, if that's what you were implying. He didn't touch the system other than to repeat the music selection. He didn't change the volume, for example.


Quote:
I think going by the past threads on here where you spent lots of time advocating why the bowls work is proof enough that you think they do something.

And again we have evidence for your lack of reading comprehension, David L. There is not one post in this thread where I have "advocated why the bowls work." On the contrary, I have been consistently skeptical about their possible _acoustic_ effect. Yes, I have offered other hypotheses for what they might do, but "hypothesis" is obviously a word with which you are not familiar.

Yes, there are other posters, including Ted Denney himself, and EricArjes, who are convinced the bowls have an acoustic effect, but they are not me and I am not them. That you get us confused is even more evidence for your lack of reading comprehension, I am afraid.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Orb
Orb's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: May 28 2009 - 12:51am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

Like a few others I am rather gutted this has had to be cancelled, but it was going to be a pig of a testing process to come up with anything that would be useful, and even then it may had possibly left more questions than conclusions some on here would had jumped to.

DavidL, you also read the many forum pages discussing the scientific approach and how the methodology required is a right pain when followed, which should also include the possibility to model the hypothesis, requiring exact room to specifications.

Anyway instead of attacking the attempt, it would make more sense trying to understand and appreciate the complexity involved in something that seems so simple, because to get anything of use, it is anything but simple.

JA, thanks for attempting to set this up as there is no financial reasoning/benefit involved for Stereophile beyond that of curiosity.
And also thanks for mentioning the "Hawthorne Effect", I forgot the name for it when I was mentioning this many pages back.

Cheers
Orb

Freako
Freako's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 6 days ago
Joined: Jan 17 2010 - 8:29am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

When we are able to measure the audible improvement of a mug of hot coffee, we MIGHT be able to measure the bowls. Until then: Useless. Don't even spend time talking about them. Some find they work, some don't and that's fine. Measure them? Yeah right...

Orb
Orb's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: May 28 2009 - 12:51am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

Ah but it is to ensure that as many known factors are accounted for and a controlled environment is utilised that "may" help in modelling all the factors/measurements while also limiting other detrimental effects (especially those that are environment related).

Of course one may argue the perfect room would be one with totally wrong dimensions/surfaces.
However to take into account the smallest of measurement changes, building a known modelled room with its behaviour/factors makes more sense.

BTW I am not saying that the test would find changes, just that you need a very thorough methodology/engineering principles if attempting this test process.
It is also possible to measure and model the wlan transmissions to cover one of the hypothesis and even possible to manipulate the strength/coverage/measurement to see if this has a potential effect.
It is definitely a pig to do, and another reason why the engineer may had felt that what is involved was not worth the angst that may had resulted at the end, especially if there is no complete conclusion (most new tests require further follow-up testing to investigate findings further before establishing a concrete conclusion).

Cheers
Orb

Freako
Freako's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 6 days ago
Joined: Jan 17 2010 - 8:29am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

I am not familiar with the wlan transmissions, but overall I guess I agree with you.

Basically even a security pin would be able to change the sound when lying on a table, but how to measure it? How small changes will we ever be able to measure? My guess: Never... and who cares?

Orb
Orb's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: May 28 2009 - 12:51am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

LOL this would be a bet one could not lose, it is 100% guaranteed that 30 pages of posting (arguing) on the results and its associated testing would occur due to those who seemed to care, both emotionally and passionately

Cheers
Orb

j_j
j_j's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: Mar 13 2009 - 4:22pm
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
I am not familiar with the wlan transmissions, but overall I guess I agree with you.

Basically even a security pin would be able to change the sound when lying on a table, but how to measure it? How small changes will we ever be able to measure? My guess: Never... and who cares?

Well, there is a limit to what you can measure acoustically, don't forget that the air, itself, consists of molecules, and the momentum transfer of them bouncing off of things is "air pressure". What's more, since they are discrete particles, there is a noise level associated with this momentum transfer. For something the size of an eardrum, in the bandwidth 20Hz to 20kHz, the noise level that can not be avoided, ever, is somewhere between 6dB and 8dB, give or take, in unweighted SPL.

You can't hear this in any normal, quiet setting,if ever, but microphones can measure this. Any effect that would be measurable would have to allow for effects above the atmospheric noise level. Yes, one could time average, do matched filtering, and all sorts of signal detection tricks, but no matter what you do, there will be a basic physical limit of some sort.

And, interestingly, that limit is JUST below the absolute threshold of hearing in any given critical bandwidth. It's so close that it just might, maybe, be audible to someone with perfect hearing in a very quiet space. Maybe. But it's hard to test, subjects might be distressed when you remove all air from both sides of their eardrum, I suspect, and obviously NOBODY will try that experiment.

So depending on the time you take to test, and the actual effect level, it is possible to be unable to measure a very small effect.

There is a limit to time averaging and the like, as well, you'd have to keep temperature, humidity, and air pressure extremely close to constant to even hope to perform such an experiment.

Buddha
Buddha's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Sep 8 2005 - 10:24am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

Not to mention the sonic impact of one's wallet being 3,000 dollars lighter!

(No seriousness intended, just in case.)

j_j
j_j's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: Mar 13 2009 - 4:22pm
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
Not to mention the sonic impact of one's wallet being 3,000 dollars lighter!

(No seriousness intended, just in case.)

Like the first 9 jokes, eh, and would we laugh this time? Well, did you win the humor award?

No pun in 10 did!

Buddha
Buddha's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Sep 8 2005 - 10:24am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year
David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

One possible reason for the bowls influence on your fearless leader.......

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

JA doing his "60 hours a week" work........

Buddha
Buddha's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Sep 8 2005 - 10:24am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year

Yikes.

So, if he doesn't snap to your bowl demand he is a laggard?

Have you tried them yet? There's a money back guarantee. You could listen and toss them back if they don't please you...or are you too lazy?

David_L
David_L's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Oct 28 2009 - 8:23am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
Yikes.

So, if he doesn't snap to your bowl demand he is a laggard?

Have you tried them yet? There's a money back guarantee. You could listen and toss them back if they don't please you...or are you too lazy? [/quote

Here we go again with me being "demanding"
Snap to? Yeah after almost 2 years I guess he should "snap to"

Lend me the $3000 Buddha and I'll test them myself and do a write up Shhhhh don't say the "L" word John might wake up.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 42 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Re: Only 159 Days Left In the Year


Quote:
Well, there is a limit to what you can measure acoustically, don't forget that the air, itself, consists of molecules, and the momentum transfer of them bouncing off of things is "air pressure". What's more, since they are discrete particles, there is a noise level associated with this momentum transfer. For something the size of an eardrum, in the bandwidth 20Hz to 20kHz, the noise level that can not be avoided, ever, is somewhere between 6dB and 8dB, give or take, in unweighted SPL.

So depending on the time you take to test, and the actual effect level, it is possible to be unable to measure a very small effect.

There is a limit to time averaging and the like, as well, you'd have to keep temperature, humidity, and air pressure extremely close to constant to even hope to perform such an experiment.

Geez, luiz, that's some attitude you're sporting there!

You've crafted a well-constructed strawman argument, nothing more than a foregone conclusion based on your assumptions that (1) The effect is small, (2) Our hearing is limited and (3) Most people have difficulties with acoustic measurements. You've apparently psyched yourself out. "It's all too difficult!" Sob...

"Never up, never in." ~ old audiophile expression

Pages

  • X
    Enter your Stereophile.com username.
    Enter the password that accompanies your username.
    Loading