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May Belt
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"From the Jason Victor Serinus report from the AXPONA audio show."

May Belt
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"FFom the Jason Victor Serinus report from the AXPONA audio show

The full posting I have submitted is not being shown in it's entirety and I don't know why.   It is no longer than any other.

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May Belt,

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From the Jason Victor Serinus report from the AXPONA audio show

May Belt
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"From the Jason Victor Serinus report from the AXPONA audio show

 

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Fom the Jason Victor Serinus report from the AXPONA audio show

Still having difficulty.

 

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May Belt.

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Fom the Jason Victor Serinus report from the AXPONA audio show

May Belt
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Fom the Jason Victor Serinus report from the AXPONA audio show

As far as I can recall, the last time Jason reported from a Hi Fi Show, he referred to the poor sound from many of the demonstration rooms - as he has done again this time.

 

>>> “I had a talk with Simaudio's Lionel Goodfield about possible room interactions. Lionel explained that they had found the 12' high ceilinged room impossibly bright and prone to major echo. After many hours of experimentation, they opted for really thick black drapes, an unusual firing angle for the speakers, and ASC Tube Traps to tone things down on top. But despite everything they did, I'm afraid they couldn't totally come to term with the room.

 

As you'll read from several discussions of room sound in subsequent stories from AXPONA, it's clear that when exhibitors return to the Westin O'Hare next year on the last weekend of April, they'll be better prepared to address the room anomalies that are peculiar to every show I've attended in a hotel environment.” <<<

 

Last time he reported, Jason referred to a room which had been ‘treated’ successfully with the tiny ARC devices and this very mention triggered such abusive and aggressive responses that many of them had to be removed by John Atkinson.

 

Poor sound at Hi FI shows has been reported, to my knowledge and experience, for over 30 years and, in my personal opinion, it still does not seem to be being addressed with enough professionalism by the very audio industry involved.

 

The subject of ‘tuning’ equipment etc is being discussed elsewhere but when the very equipment can be left ‘untuned’ but with the listening room ‘treated’ and the ‘sound’ improved, this surely means that the improvements heard after ‘treatment’ must have been ALREADY presented into the room - by that very ‘untuned’ equipment !!  

 

Improvements in the sound described as one, more or all of the following :-

 

>>> “Dynamics, clarity, palpable presence, excitement, definition, air, decay, extension, articulation, less distortion, louder, quieter, 3D soundstage, natural, rich, texture, warm, fast, transmission, timbre, immersion, space, tactile, engagement, propulsion, ease, etc… everything is there in abundance… everything is here.” <<<

 

That does not mean that further ‘tuning’ of the equipment would not produce even better sound, what it means is that there is already a wealth of musical information available, in the room, which is not being heard (resolved) correctly.

 

Geoff Kait has listed elsewhere some of those ‘treatments’ which can provide those ‘sound improvements’:-

 

>>> “a plethora of new tuning devices such as Schumann frequency generators, Less-loss Blackbody, tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, a while bunch of things from Acoustic Revive including crystals for vibration control, far out stuff from Synergistic Research (Tesla Coil), extremely cool stuff from Audio Magic like their liquid filled Super Fuse and Pulse Gen ZX, both of which I own.  I won't even get into all the various and sundry CD treatments, perhaps especially the ones addressing mold release compound.

 

There are many ways to skin a cat but one thing is certain -  if you don't at least try to skin the cat and are listening to stock, off the shelf components and CDs you have about as much chance at discovering audio Nirvana (and hearing the ambient information of the hall as recorded) as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle.” <<<

 

Geoff is also correct when he says that if one is only listening to ‘off the shelf components and CDs’, then one will never be aware of just what greater musical enjoyment is available.

 

Elsewhere, someone else commented :-

 

>>> “I want my system to reproduce what ever is on the source material with as little change from it as possible. That is what the "High Fidelity" reproduction of music is supposed to be about. Lest it be forgotten, the term High Fidelity is a shortening of the phrase, "To reproduce with a high degree of fidelity to the original".” <<<

 

The question I would ask them is “How do you really KNOW what exactly IS on the source (i.e CD)    If you have never tried some of the so called ‘tweaks’. ?  

 

Tweaks such as :-

Croygenically freezing CDs,

Applying a demagnetiser to LPs and CDs.

Applying a particular chemical to the label side of CDs and to the labels of LPs.

Marking the extreme edge of CDs with a particuclar colour.

 

Because once you have tried, and heard one, more or all of the following improvements from such ‘tweaks’:-

 

>>> “Dynamics, clarity, palpable presence, excitement, definition, air, decay, extension, articulation, less distortion, louder, quieter, 3D soundstage, natural, rich, texture, warm, fast, transmission, timbre, immersion, space, tactile, engagement, propulsion, ease, etc… everything is there in abundance… everything is here.” <<<

 

Then you will begin to realise that you had NOT been hearing (correctly resolving) all the musical information which had been available, on the source, all the time !!

 

Regards,

May Belt.

PWB Electronics.

 

 

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Scull's column was titled "Fine Tunes"

Audiophiles have been tuning and tweaking for as long as I've been aware of the "High End." I think the absence of J10's column and his devotion to finding weird things that improved the sound has left a void in the audio press and is at least partly responsible for the sudden obsession by some to fill that void as if it's something new. It's not new, cutting edge or something that seasoned audiophiles haven't been exposed to. It's just being written about less by the audio press.

 

May Belt
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"From the Jason Victor Serinus report from the AXPONA audio sho

>>> “Audiophiles have been tuning and tweaking for as long as I've been aware of the "High End."” <<<

 

I agree, Catch 22.    I also agree that :-

 

>>> “It's not new, cutting edge or something that seasoned audiophiles haven't been exposed to.” <<<

 

So, why is not something being done, far more seriously, by audio professionals, about the poor sound reported at Hi Fi Shows if so called ‘tweaking’ has been known about and practiced for as long as you and I are aware of ?

 

And why, when such as Jason Victor Serinus has taken the trouble in the past to report, from Hi Fi Shows, about ‘tweaks/devices’ which CAN give improvements in the sound, is his reporting met with such attacking responses ?

 

Regards,

May Belt,

PWB Electronics.

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Tweaks at the shows

Clark Johnsen, freelance audio journalist extraordinaire, used to carry around some tweaks du jour at CES and (politely) go around to various exhibits and ask if they wouldn't mind his demonstrating this tweak or that, crystals, Intelligent Chip, and various CD treatments, among others.  In some cases the folks who ran the particular exhibit would be gracious enough to allow Clark to give a brief demo.  But not always.  I recall the head fellow at the Burmeister room, when asked if he would like to hear the latest tweak, replied in near perfect English, "We don't do tweaks here."  I don't know if it's actually true or not, but I heard that the owner of Deja Vu Audio in McClean, VA, who has apparently recently dispensed used many tweaks in his showrooms, stated, "Our customers feel that tweaks are a little unfair and they would rather be sure they are hearing the pure sound of the speakers and other components and cables."  Now, I don't want to judge too harshly, but does anyone else think this is a little bit too much like shooting yourself in the foot?

geoff kait,

machina dynamica

wkhanna
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Prove it - turn it ON then trurn it OFF

I have only been to one audio show (Capital Audiofest last year & going back this year).

But I see this arena as the best place in the world for purveyors of 'Tweeks' to demonstrate their wares.

The Red Wine / Harbeth room had some kind of little back pyramids stuck on the ceiling & about the room.

No one took the time to demonstrate the difference (with & without).

These types of promotions tend to leave the taste of charlatan elixir in my mouth. 

But for instance, take the time to swap out some cables or other 'tweeks', allow attendees the opportunity to compare & you may accomplished something.

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Outstanding! coverage JVS.

Outstanding! coverage JVS.

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Prove it - turn it ON then trurn it OFF

>>> “But for instance, take the time to swap out some cables or other 'tweeks', allow attendees the opportunity to compare & you may accomplished something.” <<<

Wkhanna.    It has been done before.   John Atkinson commented on his experience of hearing Ted Denney’s tiny ART devices in and out of the demonstration room at a previous Hi Fi Show.

>>> “Ted offered to remove the ART devices so I could hear if the sound got worse, but it was already past the Show’s closing time on the final day. And in any case, I had heard that demonstration last year. I’ll let Shakespeare sum it up: “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” And mine, it seems.” <<<

 

However, wkhanna, what you are asking for is really something which exhibitors would not be too happy in doing.   Let me picture the scene for you.

 

At a Hi Fi Show, on set-up day you have the exhibitor (manufacturer/distributor) installing the equipment they are wishing to demonstrate to the buying public.

 

They set-up their (say) $10,000 turntable/CD player, their (say) $10,000 amplifier, their (say) $20,000 loudspeaker system but the sound is harsh, aggressive and shouty.  Much worse sound than they were expecting from their excellently engineered equipment !!    They therefore decide to install many of (such as) Ted Denney’s tiny ART devices around the room and listen again.   Now they have much improved sound, giving them one, more or all of the following improvements in the sound :-

 

>>> “Dynamics, clarity, palpable presence, excitement, definition, air, decay, extension, articulation, less distortion, louder, quieter, 3D soundstage, natural, rich, texture, warm, fast, transmission, timbre, immersion, space, tactile, engagement, propulsion, ease, etc… everything is there in abundance… everything is here.” <<<

 

What you are wanting the exhibitor (manufacturer/distributor) to do is that after the members of the public have been listening to the good sound for some time, that the ART devices are then removed.   But this would mean that the harsh, aggressive and shouty sound would be back – from the very $10,000 turntable/CD player, from the very $10,000 amplifier, from the very $20,000 loudspeaker system which the exhibitor are trying to sell !!!!!!!!!!!

 

The exhibitor is wanting to sell THEIR equipment and not other people’s ‘room tweaks’ !!

 

Regards,

May Belt,

PWB Electronics.

geoffkait
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Help, posts missing for last two days!

I assume there was a forum refresh today or last night. As far as I can tell, I hate to judge too quickly, but it appears that all the posts from the last two days on all topics are missing in action.

Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica

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software update

Yes, Geoff.
Let us hope it is all recovered, as i will have to re-post three or four of mine that are missing.

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some tweaks can hurt...

Site Update: Note To Our Readers
By Jon Iverson • Posted: May 2, 2014
We've updated our site platform this weekend and changed a few things.
Log in to the site is now located at the right end of the nav bar at top.

We apologize that any comments that you might have added this weekend have been lost. There are still a few minor issues we are fixing, so please bear with us.

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Forum refresh

I don't post for two years and they have a forum refresh. Lol

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

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Forum refresh

While I'm on a roll, there appears to be no edit function.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Help Posts Missing
geoffkait wrote:

I assume there was a forum refresh today or last night. As far as I can tell, I hate to judge too quickly, but it appears that all the posts from the last two days on all topics are missing in action.

That is correct, We posted a warning on the home page Friday afternoon that we were migrating the site and that further comments would be disabled.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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[quote=John Atkinson]
John Atkinson wrote:

That is correct, We posted a warning on the home page Friday afternoon that we were migrating the site and that further comments would be disabled.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Maybe as a 'lesson learned' moment, in the future keep in mind that many of us go straight to the Forum page, skipping a stop at the Home page?

Thanks,
Bill

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Prove it - turn it ON then trurn it OFF

To post again what was deleted over the weekend during the “updating of the site platform”.
******
Hello Bill (wkhanna).
>>> “Why couldn't they set up their own room with a simple, affordable, mid-level system in order to demonstrate their product?” <<<
Ted Denney did just that !! With his Synergistic devices. Using a Bose Radio !!
See Jason Victor Serinus report from the RMAF 2013 Hi Fi Show. Synergistic Research’s HFT and FEQ Transform Bose Wave Radio
>>> “With up to 75 rooms to cover on multiple floors of the Marriott’s tower, I decided to check out Synergistic Research’s much-heralded new products before the show officially began. Inventor Ted Denney decided to dem his new babies, not with the expected megabuck system, but rather with a Bose radio. Positioned atop one of his Tranquility Bases, used as shelves on a Solid Tech rack, the radio played a vocal track by Anne Vada and Aki Fukakura as Denney demonstrated the cumulative effects of his tiny aluminum passive HFTs (High Frequency Transducers, $299/5 pack), active FEQ (Frequency Equalizer, $750), and Tranquility Bases. (In the photo, Ted is pointing to the HFT affixed to the front of the radio.)
My initial impression, with everything in the system, was that despite the radio’s glaring limitations, the room-filling size and depth of the soundstage were pretty amazing. As Denney progressively removed the 20 HFTs he had positioned around the room (including two on the front and back of the radio, and one on his Synergistic Research active FireWire cable), then the FEQ which rested on a table behind the equipment rack, and finally the Tranquility Bases, the soundstage shrank, bass lost impact, music became localized in the radio, and, most important, the listening experience became less compelling.
Activating just the Tranquility Bases made the bass more solid and the picture more dimensional. Even with just two out of the 20 HFTs returned to the front and back of the Bose radio, sonic depth increased. The more HFTs Denney added—there are five levels of treatment, each comprised of five HFTs—the larger and more room-filling the soundstage became. With everything restored, percussion seemed to be coming from all over the place, color increased, and the three-dimensional illusion was pretty uncanny. “ <<<
Then read the numerous comments after Jason’s report !! Some of the comments were so attacking and vitriolic that John Atkinson had to delete them.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/synergistic-research%E2%80%99s-hft-an...
Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

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DEMO

The basis of one of my 'lost'

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Repost of Why Tweak Manufacturers don't pay for rooms at CES

Of the last three rooms I participated in at CES in Vegas the price per room for a 3 day show was $5K, $50K, and $10K, respectively, the second being a 50x50 room that was home to a quarter of a million dollar system. The last time I attended CES was nine years ago and I'm pretty sure prices have gone up since then.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica

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DEMO

The basis of one of my lost posts was that i was familiar with some of the show demos, but only through reading of them. Notable is the one by Nordost Cables.

Additionally, I understand why equipment exhibitors may not wish to divulge info related there use of 'Tweaks' as there is typically more margin to made from their higher end hardware (admittedly, there may be many cases where my assumption is not correct).

But what i would like to see is more purveyors of 'Tweaks' set up their own rooms with affordable, mid-level gear. Is it that the cost of renting a room are more than such companies can afford?

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out of sync

Geoff seems to be multi-talented and a mind reader, too! ;)

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show time

Geoff, will be at this years Capital Audiofest?

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Capital Audiofest

I am not planning to go to Capital Audiofest. However, as always, I am open for offers.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

May Belt
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Tweaks at the shows

I use the Synergistic ART devices as an example because of what they imply. They are the devices I have seen referred to the most as improving the sound at Hi Fi Shows and the descriptions of those improvements in the sound have been provided by people who I have respect for.
Such as the description by Jason Victor Serinus :-
>>> “Even with just two out of the 20 HFTs returned to the front and back of the Bose radio, sonic depth increased. The more HFTs Denney added—there are five levels of treatment, each comprised of five HFTs—the larger and more room-filling the soundstage became. With everything restored, percussion seemed to be coming from all over the place, color increased, and the three-dimensional illusion was pretty uncanny. “ <<<
And such as the description by John Atkinson :-
>>> “When I reported in our report from the 2009 RMAF that I perceived a degradation when Ted Denney of cable manufacturer Synergistic Research removed his tiny ART devices from the room, it triggered a debate that raged not just in the comments following that report but also in our website forum right up to today. The fact is that these small metal bowls are too small to have a significant effect on the acoustics of a room at frequencies below 10kHz or so, yet they seem to improve the accuracy and stability of stereo imaging and even tighten up the sounds of bass instruments.
If such devices as the tiny Synergistic ART devices and such as the Schumann Resonance device, when introduced into the room can give the improvements in the sound which have been experienced by many people, then the implications have to be seriously considered !! “ <<<
Another example I use regularly as a general example is a description of musical information i.e.
A recording of an orchestra playing the musical score of Dvorak’s New World.
For example. If, after introducing such as the tiny Synergistic devices or the Schumann resonance device into the listening room (or demonstration room at a Hi Fi Show) and one can then hear improvements in the sound of one, more or all of the following :-
>>> “Dynamics, clarity, palpable presence, excitement, definition, air, decay, extension, articulation, less distortion, louder, quieter, 3D soundstage, natural, rich, texture, warm, fast, transmission, timbre, immersion, space, tactile, engagement, propulsion, ease, etc… everything is there in abundance… everything is here.” <<<

Then this means that that further information must have been there, in the room, all the time but had not been resolved correctly !!
Back to my example of the orchestra playing the musical score of Dvorak’s New World. You cannot add MORE musical score to what is already encoded on the source. So if one can hear (better resolve) more information after adding the tiny Synergistic devices or the Schumann Resonance device into the listening environment, then that further information MUST HAVE been there, in the listening environment, all the time.
Further meaning that the equipment (which had not been ‘tuned’ or ‘tweaked’ in any way) MUST have already presented that further information into the room – but that that further information had not been resolved correctly until the positioning of the tiny Synergistic devices or the Schumann resonance device in the room !!!
I have also heard various designers and manufacturers of Hi Fi equipment make exactly the same comment as Geoff Kait referred to - i.e -
>>> "Our customers feel that tweaks are a little unfair and they would rather be sure they are hearing the pure sound of the speakers and other components and cables." <<<
Do these designers and manufacturers seriously believe that their potential customers, at Hi Fi Shows, are REALLY hearing the ‘pure sound’ of the speakers and other components ?
Or, are the many reporters, visiting the Hi Fi Shows correct when they describe one room after another as having quite ‘poor’ and disappointing sound from what would normally be regarded as excellently designed and made equipment ?
What I am trying to point out is that such as the tiny Synergistic devices and the Schumann Resonance device are pointing out that there is ‘something going on’, in various listening environments which needs to be investigated far more seriously than is being done at present.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

wkhanna
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....one you can't refuse.....
geoffkait wrote:

I am not planning to go to Capital Audiofest. However, as always, I am open for offers.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Meet me at the bar on Friday, I'll by the first two rounds......

geoffkait
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[quote=wkhanna][quote
wkhanna wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

I am not planning to go to Capital Audiofest. However, as always, I am open for offers.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Meet me at the bar on Friday, I'll by the first two rounds......

Thanks for the offer, let me mull it over. I thought you were askingq if I was going to exhibit at the show. My bad.

Geoff Kait
Machina Diobolical

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Capital Audiofest
wkhanna wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

I am not planning to go to Capital Audiofest. However, as always, I am open for offers.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Meet me at the bar on Friday, I'll by the first two rounds......

Thanks for the offer, let me mull it over. I thought you were asking if I was going to exhibit at the show. My bad.

Geoff Kait
Machina Diobolical

wkhanna
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Cap AF

I will be there Friday thru Saturday.
I would thoroughly enjoy the opportunity to share a libation or two if you would be so inclined.

Cheers,
Bill

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edit - boy would that be nice?

I will be at Cap AF Friday thru SUNDAY.

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Tweaks fall into just three categories

1. Those that work, and have a scientific explanation on why they work.
2. Those that may work, even if there is no scientific explanation on why they do (Note to manufacturers: better leave it like this rather than invent some silly explanations).
3. Those that cannot work, simply because they are in no way influencing any phenomena relating to the reproduction of music.

So most resonators, absorbers, diffusers and the like do work, and it's rather simple to explain how. Some other devices based on "quantum purifiers" may work (and they certainly had an effect in my system, although not necessarily a positive one), and some other just cannot work (like affixing a label stating "SYSTEM >> GOOD" on the CD player, or deep-freezing a photo of my favorite cat, with a positive attitude message written on its back - using "the" special marker, obviously).

End of rant!

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iosiP wrote:
iosiP wrote:

1. Those that work, and have a scientific explanation on why they work.
2. Those that may work, even if there is no scientific explanation on why they do (Note to manufacturers: better leave it like this rather than invent some silly explanations).
3. Those that cannot work, simply because they are in no way influencing any phenomena relating to the reproduction of music.

So most resonators, absorbers, diffusers and the like do work, and it's rather simple to explain how. Some other devices based on "quantum purifiers" may work (and they certainly had an effect in my system, although not necessarily a positive one), and some other just cannot work (like affixing a label stating "SYSTEM >> GOOD" on the CD player, or deep-freezing a photo of my favorite cat, with a positive attitude message written on its back - using "the" special marker, obviously).

End of rant!

Quantum mechanics. Boo!

Geoff Kait
Machina Erotica

May Belt
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iosiP wrote:-

iosiP wrote:-

>>> “So most resonators, absorbers, diffusers and the like do work, and it's rather simple to explain how.” <<<

If it IS so simple to explain how most resonators work, then would you please do so, then many researchers and interested others, who have been struggling to understand for quite some time, can then pack their bags and go home and have a well deserved rest !!

IF it is understood (as you make out), then there should be NO controversy. The fact that there IS a controversy raging over the effect of such resonators as the tiny ART devices surely points to the fact that ALL is NOT understood !!!

I would suggest that if anyone was capable of understanding, it would be such as John Atkinson. So, I would also suggest that if John A has problems in understanding, then your belief that “it is rather simple to explain how” is showing some ignorance of what is really ‘going on’ !!

To quote John A :-

>>> “When I reported in our report from the 2009 RMAF that I perceived a degradation when Ted Denney of cable manufacturer Synergistic Research removed his tiny ART devices from the room, it triggered a debate that raged not just in the comments following that report but also in our website forum right up to today. The fact is that these small metal bowls are too small to have a significant effect on the acoustics of a room at frequencies below 10kHz or so, yet they seem to improve the accuracy and stability of stereo imaging and even tighten up the sounds of bass instruments. It is a mystery, therefore, how these devices can work. I have conjectured that perhaps they have an effect on the listener’s state of mind rather than the acoustics, but if so, then I don’t comprehend how that effect can be both repeatable and demonstrable.” <<<

And on other resonator devices, John A said :-

>>> “The Shun Mook Mpingo discs divide me straight down the middle: I can’t see why they have any effect; yet I have heard them make an improvement. But while I can think of no mechanism by which the Mpingo discs can work their magic, that doesn’t mean any effect must be non-existent. I am not so arrogant as to suppose that the only things that can happen are those that I can imagine (Those who declare that, unless they can think of a mechanism for something happening, it can’t happen, are presuming knowledge of all that was known, is known, and is still to be known. That they actually possess such knowledge seems unlikely). I will not allow my skepticism to interfere with the joy I get from my music.” <<<

Are you claiming, iosiP, that ALL IS known ?

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

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some tuning history

Where it's kind of sad that there have been so many bad sounding shows reported on over the years, the good of this is that the industry is becoming aware that this hobby should be based on a "method of listening" and not so much one particular component, or plug & play. When we did the shows, 90-97 there were high praises for the sound. Our first show I think we did 85 rooms or so at the Vegas CES. Many of those rooms were with designers who to me were super designers. Serious listeners, and it was hard to go around and do my work cause the energy was so alive. This became a standard for the next few years as we did 10-15 shows a year, and I thought after this was done the industry would be all about tuning and tweaking the show rooms, but I was surprised after a break to come back to very bad sounding setups. During those great show years there were all kinds of tweaks being developed, and good or bad it got people thinking and more importantly listening. So what happened to you guys? The sound took a real dive and more so there seemed to be an attitude change that was pretty different from what I remembered. There was a negative spirit among the halls that felt to me and friends who visited haunting, like the industry had died and the crows were cleaning off the bones(one of my clients described). In 2004 I moved to Vegas and setup Tuneland Vegas. I did the 2005 show out of my suite and stopped by the show and was pretty suprised. I thought Richard put on a fantastic show (still do) but there was definitely a cloud hanging over. For the next few years people going to the show would stop by and give me their reports. Numbers were less and less and the systems sounded worse and worse. There would be a show buzz that would last all of about a week (maybe) then dead. In 2010 I think it was maybe before, we did another tuning at the show with about 20 rooms but it felt nothing like the old days at all. These rooms I felt were not hard to tune at all but the systems lacked sorely. I mean it was like when I first went to shows before anyone was RoomTuning, people were just throwing the systems in the room and turning them on. A couple of us walked around and spent most of the time looking at each other saying "what happened" kinda like one of those movies where you are the only one in an abandoned city.

I'm not saying all is lost, but if the industry does not get back into listening all will be. Those of you who were around, remember those great sounding years and the excitement that was going on. It was about making soundstages and all the experts who knew their music and how to create those stages. Going room to room was a feast. Then the worst thing that could happen to a listening industry did. The industry got cocky and started doing static displays, and guys who don't know sound at all started their I'm right, your wrong BS. Experts (so to speak) started talking more than listening. People started thinking they were more than what they were and the sound started going down hill, fast. Well here you have it, another bad sounding show. I see you guys talking about some of the tweaks, well you need a tweak alley at some of these shows and line up the serious listeners in the industry and have them show off their stuff. Guys, no bodies coming to the shows to hear debates. Their coming to the shows to hear something that knocks their socks off. If the home user has sound that blows away the shows why go? If listeners keep running into guys in the industry who make negative waves why would they want to be a part of it? This industry is supposed to be about people having fun listening to music and a lot of that fun has been removed from the hobby. Did you think you were going to sell boxes forever without listening show & tells? Even up on this forum there have been two or three people greeting me with some really (sorry) stupid attitudes. Don't tell me I'm wrong come listen or turn on your system if you have one and prove me wrong. Lets have a showdown something, but when it's all talk and no walk people see this and want nothing to do with a listening hobby that is not listening anymore.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

May Belt
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“From the Jason Victor Serinus report from the AXPONA audio show

Michael. I think what Geoff Kait said earlier puts the really poor sound at many Hi Fi Shows in context.
>>> “I recall the head fellow at the Burmeister room, when asked if he would like to hear the latest tweak, replied in near perfect English, "We don't do tweaks here." I don't know if it's actually true or not, but I heard that the owner of Deja Vu Audio in McClean, VA, who has apparently recently dispensed used many tweaks in his showrooms, stated, "Our customers feel that tweaks are a little unfair and they would rather be sure they are hearing the pure sound of the speakers and other components and cables." <<<
The comments made by the two designers and manufacturers is, unfortunately, quite a general attitude amongst many members of the audio industry. As though using techniques to ‘deal with’ adverse conditions could be seen as a betrayal of the work they have put into their designs and expertise. When in actual fact, potential customers are NOT hearing just what wealth of information COULD BE experienced from the well designed and well made equipment.

Your comment Michael.

>>> “The audio signal has far more music content that the average audiophile listener is hearing,” <<<

I would agree with that statement but there are at LEAST four separate and yet interconnected areas which should be looked at equally and given equal consideration.

1) You have the source – the CD. If one can ‘treat’ the CD by applying a demagnetiser, or by cryogenically freezing it, or by applying a particular chemical to the label side, or by applying a colour to the outer edge and gain an improvement in the sound – an improvement in the sound described as one, more or all of the following :-

>>> “Dynamics, clarity, palpable presence, excitement, definition, air, decay, extension, articulation, less distortion, louder, quieter, 3D soundstage, natural, rich, texture, warm, fast, transmission, timbre, immersion, space, tactile, engagement, propulsion, ease, etc… everything is there in abundance… everything is here.” <<<

Then this means that when this further information is heard, then it MUST have been on the CD in the first place, MUST have been handled perfectly adequately by “untuned” equipment, where NO control of vibrations has taken place, and must have been introduced into the listening environment by the loudspeakers – and into a listening environment which has NOT been ‘treated’. So, Michael, improvements in the sound can be achieved without ANY ‘tuning’ taking place.

Now we come to:-
2).

You then have the equipment. This equipment can, yes, be ‘tuned’, and improvements in the sound can be heard, WITHOUT the CD being ‘treated’, WITHOUT vibration problems being ‘dealt’ with, and WITHOUT any devices being introduced into the listening room. Improvements in the sound being described as one, more or all of the following :-

>>> “Dynamics, clarity, palpable presence, excitement, definition, air, decay, extension, articulation, less distortion, louder, quieter, 3D soundstage, natural, rich, texture, warm, fast, transmission, timbre, immersion, space, tactile, engagement, propulsion, ease, etc… everything is there in abundance… everything is here.” <<<

3) You have the equipment. This equipment can have vibrations ‘dealt’ with, and improvements in the sound can be heard, WITHOUT the CD being ‘treated’, WITHOUT other things being ‘tuned’, and WITHOUT any devices being introduced into the listening room. Improvements in the sound being described as one, more or all of the following :-

>>> “Dynamics, clarity, palpable presence, excitement, definition, air, decay, extension, articulation, less distortion, louder, quieter, 3D soundstage, natural, rich, texture, warm, fast, transmission, timbre, immersion, space, tactile, engagement, propulsion, ease, etc… everything is there in abundance… everything is here.” <<<

4) You then have the listening environment. You can introduce into the listening room such as the tiny ART devices, or the Schumann Resonance device, or the Less Loss devices, or the Stein Music devices and improvements in the sound can be heard. WITHOUT the CD being ‘treated’. WITHOUT things being ‘tuned’, and WITHOUT vibration problems being ‘dealt’ with. Improvements in the sound being described as one, more or all of the following :-

>>> “Dynamics, clarity, palpable presence, excitement, definition, air, decay, extension, articulation, less distortion, louder, quieter, 3D soundstage, natural, rich, texture, warm, fast, transmission, timbre, immersion, space, tactile, engagement, propulsion, ease, etc… everything is there in abundance… everything is here.” <<<

Meaning that the further information now being ‘heard’ MUST have been there, available, in the room all the time – but not previously being resolved correctly !!!!!!!!

Concentrating on one area (tuning) as though it is not extremely important to extract as much of the information already encoded on the CD (source) as possible – means that there will still be further information available from the CD (source) which is not there for the further ‘tuning’ process to make use of.

>>> “The audio signal has far more music content that the average audiophile listener is hearing,” <<<

Again, I agree with that comment and I would add to that.

“Not only has the audio signal far more music content that the average audiophile is hearing but there is also far more musical information, having ALREADY been presented in the room by the loudspeakers, WITHOUT any ‘treatment to the CD, WITHOUT any ‘tuning’ being done, WITHOUT any vibration problems being ‘dealt with’ – but that that further musical information is just not being resolved correctly.”

Which such as the introduction of the tiny ART devices, the Less Loss devices, the Stein Music devices and the Schumann resonance device into the listening environment are showing !!!!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

toledo
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Ad nauseam

>>> “Dynamics, clarity, palpable presence, excitement, definition, air, decay, extension, articulation, less distortion, louder, quieter, 3D soundstage, natural, rich, texture, warm, fast, transmission, timbre, immersion, space, tactile, engagement, propulsion, ease, etc… everything is there in abundance… everything is here.” <<<

This quote is from a review of the Stein Music Harmonizers from positive-feedback and has no relevance to how you are using it.

At least provide a reference if you are going to use it ad nauseam.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue62/stein_harmonizers.htm

May Belt
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Comment by Toledo

>>> “This quote is from a review of the Stein Music Harmoniser from positive feedback and has no relevance to how you are using it” <<<

Toledo. Yes I know where that paragraph came from.

When I have used that quote before I have acknowledged where I got it from. I have also stated, in the past, that the words in that quote were SO descriptive and actually said everything I wanted to convey that I hoped I would be forgiven for using those very words AS specifically written by someone else.

My aim is to try to convey the improvements heard when certain techniques and/or devices are used and the words are descriptive words from the English language and have every relevance when describing improvements in the sound which people have heard!!!!!!!

And I DO say “one, more or all” of those words describe the improvements in the sound which people report.
Here are some more descriptive words from the English language which can be substituted for the words used in the paragraph I quoted – if you don’t like me using the words which were printed in positive feedback online. And they will make exactly the point I have been trying to make !!

Heard a more dimensional soundstage.

Improved low end that sounded tighter and richer.

Improved smoothness, detail and bass definition, not to mention greater soundstage and three-dimentionality.

Greater sense of air and bloom seemed to surround the instruments.

More life and vibrancy.

More Natural texture.

The decay structure of individual notes was cleaner and clearer.

Stereo focus and image uniformity were improved.

The music’s dynamics, rhythm and timing were significantly improved.

Improvements in the sound as an audible decrease in glare and an increase in apparent soundstage size, both width and depth.

Improvements noted are better air, sparkle, transparency, openness, imaging, soundstaging, naturalness and musicality.

Wow, that was amazing. The soundstage has just opened up.

***********

Toledo. Are there enough descriptive words there, from the English language, to enable you not to miss the point I was trying to convey ?? Do you understand now, that that paragraph I used said everything I wanted to say but said it much quicker and extremely well ??

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

toledo
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I understood your point

I understood your point exactly but it was conveyed in quotes giving more weight and credibility to the statement and the argument it was supporting.

When I first read it, I thought it sounded like a reviewers comment .. and was right. I am sure a lot of others read it the same.

The audiophile community is influenced in large part by reviewers findings and quotes ... too much IMO.

I, like others, don't follow your writings so we may have missed your disclaimer.

Since this is the 'general rants and raves' forum, I got my rant in for the day ;)

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show & tell

What made this industry great in the early 90's was the proof in the pudding. What made the industry start to falter was the lack of. As everyone who has a say is going to come up a stake their claim I have always welcomed their tweak or idea. I have also explored their tweak or idea, and that will never stop. Where I disagree with some is when they make statements and haven't "done". When someone comes up and says "this can not be tuned" and yet we have people all over the world that are and can tune it, the words fall short at that point and shows us that these are differences in the sound but not yet taken to the end of the day. And the end of the day is that audio is variable and the end user should not have to be sitting there with "a" sound but "their" sound.

May, I don't have a problem with your sound, but I can tune it all over the place and have, so can any of the people who tune. How can I make this statement, because we are actively tuning. I have not seen one audio system that is not able to be tuned. What I have also seen are reviewers who review things and their systems are not flexible enough to show the entire affect of products or able to variably tune a product. They make a description on what they hear and that is their job, but they also make these statements within their own context, and if their context is leaning toward fixed than this is the point of their reference. Nothing wrong with that either, but this has nothing to do with the guy like "Toledo" who is tuning and able to run rings around many reviewers fixed experiences.

What I'm saying is, lets say Toledo buys into your whole product line and sets up his system according to the reviewers recommendations and wants to make a change. He wants the cymbals to open up or close in a little more than what they are. He wants the kick drum to be ever so loosened to John Bonham's style and the system "fixed" is a little too uptight to do this. All Toledo has to do is a little variable tuning and he's off to the races. A fixed system will leave him high and dry.

But saying this means very little if the end user is not able to experience it and that's what the industry needs to figure out. The industry desperately needs show & tell, cause the listener is losing interest. You I and all the other designers can have our day in court, but if the end user can not relate it's only words, and if the end user can not put a system in their room and have satisfaction, things won't change cause they are obviously not satisfied. As the mid fi world continues to grow the High End Audio industry continues to shrink. And lets not blame this on economy cause the High End of other industries is growing by leaps and bounds.

What you and the industry should be doing is asking Toledo what his sound is all about and how did he get there. Toledo realizes that a reviewer is an end user with a pen. That end user is going to write based on his or her setup, and if that setup has not done what Toledo is doing, the words in that review have not reached the level of listening that the person reading it has been doing. I would imagine that if Toledo was talking to the reviewer or you in person he would have a few questions for you about your system and setup before he got too far into his impressions with your or the writers writings. If there are things he is doing to his system that makes it more tunable I would also imagine he would be waiting for you guys to get caught up to his speed so you guys could be on the same page.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
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what do you do?

I also feel it's important to add this.

"You have the source – the CD. If one can ‘treat’ the CD by applying a demagnetiser, or by cryogenically freezing it, or by applying a particular chemical to the label side, or by applying a colour to the outer edge and gain an improvement in the sound – an improvement in the sound described as one, more or all of the following :-"

What if listeners have done these treatments and found that they have made the sound worse, and now have their collections sitting there never being able to go back to the sound they first had? What if they have found that the cryogenic treatment shifted the pitch perminately up? Or the green treatment on the edge made the sound sterile? Or that the demagnetizing needs to be repeated and after a while when compared to a new CD off the shelf the continually treated one sounds flat? Are we to keep buying our collections all over again when people come out with tweaks that make a difference but also have audio side effects? And if your saying these side effects don't happen then there are quite a few people out there that beg to differ. I'm one of them and have these CD's in my collection. getting ready to play one for you :)

At first you start listening and you do indeed hear changes, but I eurge people to keep listening and compare. If you have a system that is not over built you will start noticing what is missing. The bottom notes have lost their girth and body. They may sound more focused but pay attention to the air around these instruments, the air has thinned and keep listening and you will notice the upward shift in pitch. It sounds at first like there is more focus on things but other parts of the recording come up missing, and if you pay attention the soundstage has also shifted and thinned. Now if this is how you want to listen your in good shape but if you put on the next recording and things sound horribly wrong it's not the recording but the tweaks.

Go ahead do it! People come up and say do these things so do them, I did. But I also did more than short term listening. I took the time to really study these tweaks and all the other ones that come along, and it is my view that when anyone makes a "fixed" claim, one size fits all type of thing, your ears should perk. And if a reviewer does this, both ears should perk.

People coming up and saying your systems are not tunable only means one thing, they haven't tried it. After reading I decided to do some listening. I have a CD on right this second that has the green treatment and was cryogenically treated so that I might make this point. When I compare the entire floor of the bass line has completely thinned out and is almost not there. Put back on the store bought and there is body but loose. I now adjust the screw and bamm, I have the body plus tight. Ok, I'm now putting back on the treated one and the body never comes back. It does tune but only keeps shifting upward in pitch. I would need to do some major tuning to see if I can find the body in something else. I'm not going to say the treatment is a good or bad thing and if you want to do it that's your baby, but I will say that the CD that was not treated does everything the treated one does and is more tunable. If the designers wish to send me other treated Cd's their more than welcome to and I will be happy to do some listening. It's not my job to tell anyone what to listen to and I don't put my sound or taste above anyone elses. What I do is tune though and try to make the signal as flexible as possible and guide people to where they want to go if they desire my help. I tell you this so you know there is no axe to grind by me except the one that keeps telling you guys there is only one sound and one way (their way) and anything outside of that is a bad recording or you don't know what you are doing, or as was done yesterday someone being as stupid enough to throw the distortion card.

For those of you who love your system I'm thrilled and for those of you who wish it did more I hope you take the time to explore what a stereo system can really do for you. Go ahead a do some of these tweaks and see if you like them, but if you start to hear things that aren't so good you should come back up and say so and let's see what went wrong. What your going to find is that all recordings have a different sound and code and that every component/room/system does as well. All systems sound uniquely different from each other as your room is unique. And if you think these fixed tweaks fix everything then your set. If you pop on a recording and it doesn't sound so good, then your not. If your system doesn't sound like you want it to, then your not again. But don't go thinking your stuck cause your system can be tuned.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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The color purple

Michael wrote,

"What if listeners have done these treatments and found that they have made the sound worse, and now have their collections sitting there never being able to go back to the sound they first had? What if they have found that the cryogenic treatment shifted the pitch perminately up? Or the green treatment on the edge made the sound sterile? Or that the demagnetizing needs to be repeated and after a while when compared to a new CD off the shelf the continually treated one sounds flat? Are we to keep buying our collections all over again when people come out with tweaks that make a difference but also have audio side effects? And if your saying these side effects don't happen then there are quite a few people out there that beg to differ. I'm one of them and have these CD's in my collection. getting ready to play one for you :)"

That's pretty much the cry of the non intrepid anti Tweaker, though I hate to be quick to judge before all the facts are in. Of course there can be some folks who get negative or neutral results but by and large I suspect you'll find the great majority of audiophiles who try green pens, demagnetizers, ionizers, CDs enhancing fluids and the like get positive results. In addition, those intrepid audiophiles who have moved beyond the confines of the color green have, by and large, found that adding the colors purple and orange open up the soundstage even more and bring fullness and dynamics to the table as well. As people have pointed out before me, George Tice for one, there are many explanations why someone might have difficulty hearing certain tweaks, like the green pen for example, or just about anything you can shake a stick at. These explanations include but are not limited to one or more problems with the system that are masking the effects of the tweak, a insufficiently resolving system for one reason(s) or another, listening or hearing skills that aren't all they are cracked up to be, and failure to follow instructions. Tweaks are not a magic bullet necessarily and I can certainly understand why they might be frowned upon by the plug and play crowd.

Geoff Kait
Machina Erotica

michael green
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everything makes a difference

So if all agree that everything makes a difference (good bad or neutral), what keeps you from getting that everything can be variably tuned?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
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stalled

Catch22 said

"Audiophiles have been tuning and tweaking for as long as I've been aware of the "High End." I think the absence of J10's column and his devotion to finding weird things that improved the sound has left a void in the audio press and is at least partly responsible for the sudden obsession by some to fill that void as if it's something new. It's not new, cutting edge or something that seasoned audiophiles haven't been exposed to. It's just being written about less by the audio press."

This to me is why the growth stopped. The industry started to build up this area of the hobby and then poof it was gone. As I said earlier I was shocked to return and see that this part hadn't advanced. I think it can be rebuilt, but it's a real shame it stalled. Tuning in a system/recording to sound like you want is the hobby.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Tunability
michael green wrote:

So if all agree that everything makes a difference (good bad or neutral), what keeps you from getting that everything can be variably tuned?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Michael, I still don't think that you get that I'm one of your oldest customers going back to when Christ was a Boy Scout, you know, those really neato brass cones, Corner Tunes, those long jobbers for vertical wall corners and Echo Tunes. If there is going to be a meeting at the river you are probably going to have to give some serious consideration to a lot of those preposterous sounding tweaks you've been dismissing all these years and come over to our side, not the other way around. We could all use a bigger, deeper, wider, higher soundstage, no? Better living through quantum mechanics I always say.

Cheers

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

May Belt
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I understood your point - from Toledo.

Hello Toledo,

Yes, the paragraph I quoted was from a review of the Stein Music device. So, that is a very good point from which to carry this forward.

The descriptive paragraph which the journalist used shows that AFTER the Stein Music device was introduced into the listening environment, more of the musical information was being ‘better resolved’.

Reasoning this out means that the ‘more information’ MUST HAVE ALREADY been in the room before the Stein Music device had been introduced – but not being resolved (heard) correctly before.
So, if the musical information encoded on the CD being played was of an orchestra playing the musical score of Dvorak’s New World, there is no way (within current audio understanding) that the Stein Music device, after being introduced into the room, could influence how the information was being extracted from the CD.

There is no way (within current audio understanding) that the Stein Music device, after being introduced into the room, could influence the audio signal travelling through the audio equipment. So, this means that the ‘more information being resolved’ AFTER the Stein Music device had been introduced into the room MUST HAVE ALREADY been there, in the room, all the time.

There is no way (within current audio understanding) that the Stein Music device can add ADDITIONAL musical score to Dvorak’s New World, over and above what was originally encoded on the CD. So, what the journalist heard (resolved better) after the Stein Music device had been introduced into the room must have been on the CD, must have already been ‘handled’ perfectly OK by the audio equipment, and must have already been presented into the room by the loudspeakers.

I will now quote another paragraph by the same journalist, from the same article in Positive Feedback Online :-

>>> “Which leads to… has Science explained everything? And is everything explainable by Science? I would say no, perhaps not… or at very least not yet. Science is an evolving discipline of knowledge… new discoveries… new ways of looking at or defining what we know and experience around us.” <<<

And, whatever I have described regarding the Stein Music device applies equally to the effect of the other devices I mentioned earlier i.e. such as the Less Loss devices, the Schumann Resonance device and the tiny ART devices when introduced into the listening room.

Again, that new paragraph I have just quoted says, in a nutshell, the words I would also wish to use. Good descriptive words from the English language.

Year after year attendees experience (and describe) poor sound at Hi Fi Shows, AND I might add, at many Hi Fi dealers showrooms.

I challenge therefore exhibitors, designers, manufacturers, importers of Hi Fi equipment, who have the belief structure of “We don’t do Tweaks” or “We want our potential customers to be sure that they are hearing the pure sound of our speakers and other components and cables." Are potential customers REALLY hearing, correctly, just what their design/equipment can produce ?

Are potential customers really hearing what Joe Blogg’s amplifier is capable of ? Are potential customers really hearing what Bill Brown’s loudspeakers are capable of ? Are potential customers really hearing what Jack Smith’s cables are capable of ?

I think not.

Again, reasoning it out. You can’t continue to blame hotel room acoustics when identical rooms, in the same hotel, can be ‘treated’ with such devices as the Stein Music devices, the Less Loss devices, the Schumann Resonance device and the tiny ART devices and GOOD sound produced – better sound than identical hotel rooms without those devices !!!!!!!!!!!

To be very simplistic. By introducing the devices I have mentioned into the listening environment you can’t (within current audio understanding) hear such as better separation of musical instruments or hear the sustain of instrument strings which you had not heard previously without that information was already present in the room and was already encoded on the CD.

You say :-

>>> “The audiophile community is influenced in large part by reviewers findings and quotes - too much IMO” <<<

I am aware that this is quite a general outlook amongst many in the world of audio but without the reviewers/audio journalists describing their listening experiences, unfortunately one is then left with such an example as one particular professional member of the world of audio, during a public talk, stated that he believed that all the different descriptions of changes in the sound from numerous so called ‘tweaks’ are merely from the different positions of a person’s ears when the listener invariably moves position during listening !!!

And again, on the particular subject of the Stein Music device reviewed in Positive Feedback Online, and in comparison with that journalist’s positive results we have the following comment after Jason Victor Serinus’ positive coverage of the Stein Music Harmonizers at a Hi Fi Show.

>>> “Interesting?

Nah. It's just another dalliance brought forth by the mentally ill for the mentally ill and which does nothing more than saddle this industry with yet further embarrassment.

That Stereophile of all publications should brand it as "intriguing" in their show report is truly sad.” <<<

Without audio journalists reporting their experiences, however unusual, we would be just left with rigid, blinkered attitudes – as though ALL is already known and there is nothing new to learn.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

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Machina Erotica

Geoff,

Machina Dynamica ... Machina Erotica ... insert quip of the day.

I am starting to realize this is all about tongue-in-cheek commentary on your part.

geoffkait
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Machina Dramatica
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

Machina Dynamica ... Machina Erotica ... insert quip of the day.

I am starting to realize this is all about tongue-in-cheek commentary on your part.

Ooops, my bad. Sorry for the humor. I just gave myself 20 lashes. Feel better?

Geoff Kait
Machina Heroica

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listening to products

Hi Geoff

One thing we/I try to do is not dismiss anything, and I don't want people to think that by us not mentioning a particular product that we have not listened to it. People send us stuff all the time and so if there is something we have missed we're open to put it in one of the systems. We have systems set up all over the world pretty much now, and a lot of great listeners who take their time and are fair and thorough. If it is not a product that I have had sent to me you can be sure it is waiting for me to listen to when I get to one of the systems. It's sorta my thing (sometimes a nightmare) when I go on listening tours to get clobbered with listen to things before we get to the business at hand. Always been that way for some reason.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "come over to our side" I don't see my job as taking sides with anyone not even myself. It either is or I make it so. As you'll see me say I'm not here for my sound but to make sound as variable as possible. If someone has a setup they like then I'm happy for them and enjoy listening through their ears and mindset. If their sitting there though and say "but", that's where I come in. I don't try to turn someone on to my ears but help them find their own. That's why it's variable tuning. When/if you read about me at a listeners home or studio or reviewers I don't tune the system in for me as much, but try to find out where they are going and see if I can help them get there. I'll usually do a few tricks for them like tune in a recording they reviewed as bad and make it good. You'll see these reviews in TAS, or lets say they are done tweaking and say "the cymbals are still hard" I will go smooth them out by adjusting a transfer device, but really I'm around to open up the signal as much as possible then assist them in where they want to go. I do enjoy my own voicing but that's for me.

Again I think where you and I are not quite clicking is that I don't dislike your product or way of tweaking, I just believe there are as many varying ways as we can count, with the key word being "variable". I totally get that you designers have come up with your sound, but the listener is sitting there with his or her sound as well and the chances that their sound is the same as yours is extremely remote. As remote as Adrian Belew and Eric Clapton.

I think maybe, you might be thinking that I have a sound that I want to put up against yours (I don't know why people do that) but that's not my thing. At the same time if someone says to me that they need this a certain way(usually in the department of clarity or size of stage) I'm not going to dampening or something that doesn't let the signal dissipate, cause I have found this to take away from clarity. Like I said before when you get an inroom system setup again let me know. I'm not saying that to judge you but so that we both have something setup to compare. You can play on your system and get a sound and I will see if I can do the same with my system. It's not an attack or your doing something right or wrong, it's what I do. And I'm happy to see if your product or May's or anyone elses does it to a certain level that we would call within the range of High End listening or something that someone wants.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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