You said: "I regard everything you have said as completely incorrect and without any merit whatsoever.

40 years of listening experience as an audiophile, plus hundreds of hours of scientific experimentation in an engineering lab, firmly convince me that none of the things you describe have any effect whatsoever."

That is precisely my point. By the way I have more than 40 years of listening experience. I have also scientifically experimented with all of the methods to improve cables I listed. Perhaps you're dismissing them out of hand. Hmmmmm......

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I am quite willing to concede that you might perhaps hear differences that I cannot.

On the other hand...if I have not been able to hear them in 40 years of extensive listenening, whereas I CAN quite clearly hear many many other differences...I can only conclude that they either do not exist or that they are so trivial that they cannot make any difference to my listening pleasure.

If they will make no difference to my listening pleasure, they are of no practical importance to me.

I spent the last 30 years listening, tweaking, buying equipment that sounded to me as if it improved the tonal accuracy and listenablility of my system (when I had saved up enough moola...lol), and I now have a sound system that I find nearly flawless in accurately reproducing all types of music.

If you are right in your assertions, then I guess I am doomed to blissful ignorance.

geoffkait wrote:

You said: "I regard everything you have said as completely incorrect and without any merit whatsoever. 40 years of listening experience as an audiophile, plus hundreds of hours of scientific experimentation in an engineering lab, firmly convince me that none of the things you describe have any effect whatsoever." That is precisely my point. By the way I have more than 40 years of listening experience. I have also scientifically experimented with all of the methods to improve cables I listed. Perhaps you're dismissing them out of hand. Hmmmmm...... Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica

While I may tease him about his multiple homes and so forth, the electrical engineers I know personally are pretty much the brightest people on the planet.  No, really.  My own personal experience is with line level unbalanced connections and I can personally say everything he says is 100% correct.  Unbalanced connections are not "terrible", but they are also not very good.

At the end of the day with unbalanced connections, you just have to admit that they are part of a greater system.  And that's what they are, they are component in a greater system.  Why don't Kimber Kables, for example, work very well in SOME systems when they are, on the whole, fantastic?  Same can be asked of why some equipment seems less succeptable to cable difference.  Every piece could, in theory drive ANY cable well, given enough current delivery capablilty, certainly Dan D' Augustino(sp?) of Krell fame thinks current is the key.  He is on his what, 3rd or 4th company coing out ot prove his point.  But at what cost to output impedence, linearity, etc.  We can as laypeople learn a lot about all this stuff, but at the end of the day, that's why we have.. as it turns out... electrical engineers.

Can we measure it why?  Maybe, maybe not, maybe once we get a better handle on what's happening past the basic LRC, we will learn to measure it.  Until then, we have to rely on something we all have, but works differently for all of us, OUR EARS!

jgossman wrote:

Can we measure it why?  Maybe, maybe not, maybe once we get a better handle on what's happening past the basic LRC, we will learn to measure it.  Until then, we have to rely on something we all have, but works differently for all of us, OUR EARS!

I guess JA should just throw out his Audio Precision measurement system and just rely upon his ears too for amp, DAC, speaker , etc "testing" Then anyone can become a reviewer and "test components.  If you wish to joing the "cable of the month club" then get out your wallet and jump right on in. I would prefer some REAL testing of cables but alas it seems that's just not "possible" as no one seems willing to do measurements or simple SBT or to post their results online as proof. It's all just "say so" and "I heard this" subjective statements. Sorry but May Belt might as well be a reviewer if that's how you want things done.

For those wishing to do cable listening tests (between premap and amp)but worry about movement of your head causing comb filtering to skew the reults do the following:

 Use a really good pair of headphones. Gosh isn't that easy? Now go do a SBT with several cables and tell me if you can pick which is which.

Johnny,

"Use a really good pair of headphones. Gosh isn't that easy? Now go do a SBT with several cables and tell me if you can pick which is which."

This last sentence is the very first sensible thing you've ever said on this forum!!

 a gnat fart. Must have been my imagination.

Will anyone do a SBT comparing cables?  NOPE. That would scare most people because then they would have to admit that they couldn't tell a difference between their uber pricey cable and the "cheap" ones. Funny how people wll go an and on and on about Nordost and other cables being so GOOD but won't do any simple tests to prove their opinion. "I KNOW WHAT I HEARD!!!" they yell out. Whatever,.

JohnnyR wrote:

 a gnat fart. Must have been my imagination.

Will anyone do a SBT comparing cables?  NOPE. That would scare most people because then they would have to admit that they couldn't tell a difference between their uber pricey cable and the "cheap" ones. Funny how people wll go an and on and on about Nordost and other cables being so GOOD but won't do any simple tests to prove their opinion. "I KNOW WHAT I HEARD!!!" they yell out. Whatever,.

Pseudo-skeptics apparently live in a make-believe bizarro world. Real audiophiles have been doing SBTs and DBTs for 30 years for cables, interconnects, electronics and controversial tweaks for 30 years. Talk about complete denial. Now, it's quite understandable that pseudo-skeptics whine, dismiss and demand when the problem is with themselves, that they cannot hear very well, cannot construct a proper test, and/or cannot build a competant system. When a SBT or DBT test "proves" that all cables sound the same, you've simply got the audio version of the witch dunking chair - when the "witch" dies it proves she wasn't really a witch after all. Back to the bizarro world of Hydrogen Audio with ya!

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica

You've gone and besmirched yourself again, Johnny...

geoffkait wrote:

JohnnyR wrote:

Pseudo-skeptics apparently live in a make-believe bizarro world. Real audiophiles have been doing SBTs and DBTs for 30 years for cables, interconnects, electronics and controversial tweaks for 30 years. Talk about complete denial. Now, it's quite understandable that pseudo-skeptics whine, dismiss and demand when the problem is with themselves, that they cannot hear very well, cannot construct a proper test, and/or cannot build a competant system. When a SBT or DBT test "proves" that all cables sound the same, you've simply got the audio version of the witch dunking chair - when the "witch" dies it proves she wasn't really a witch after all. Back to the bizarro world of Hydrogen Audio with ya! Geoff Kait machina dynamica

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh boy , Mr Kait opens his mouth and inserts foot once again! The KING of FRAUD products who WON'T submit his own contraptions for a serious review by Stereophile. Soooooooooo they have been doing SBT and DBT for 30 years? Care to show some of those tests to us? I mean you SAY they have so there must be hundreds of them online proving your point.  .........waiting.

 if HydrogenAudio is "bizarro world" then your website must be "around the bend and never coming back world". Mr Kait you always end up looking the fool in these discussions without anyone elses help doing so. Keep up the good work!

Sooooooooooooooooo, who's going to do some SBT and DBT on cables?  No one? Yep that's right. I meant no one in here. Of course all the people at Hydrogen Audio and other places do them with no problems and consistently. I guess they must be smarter than you guys at figuring out how to do them. You all go back to your "I know what I heard" way of doing things and spending the big bucks lining the cable manufacturers pockets. They will love you for doing so.

jgossman wrote:

  Until then, we have to rely on something we all have, but works differently for all of us, OUR EARS!

That is the gospel truth!

What you'll find at hydrogenaudio.com are dead and outdated links, links in French, Spanish or poorly translated English, outdated and ambiguous articles, and poorly done studies with outdated, low quality equipment in uncontrolled testing conditions that yield little or no useful applications.

ChrisS wrote:

What you'll find at hydrogenaudio.com are dead and outdated links, links in French, Spanish or poorly translated English, outdated and ambiguous articles, and poorly done studies with outdated, low quality equipment in uncontrolled testing conditions that yield little or no useful applications.

You can say that again! That site needs a serious update. Whats next, 8 track tape player wow and flutter measurements?? If a person can't get satisafaction here, thats their fault not Stereophile's.

When you are too lazy to read throuh a forum and see that people are posting updates and doing some REAL discussions and testing instead of just relying upon their "golden ears" like you do here, then you have no relevant replies about the topic. Try getting your head out of your rear ends first.

Please show me where Stereophile has EVER done ANY SBT, DBT or even meaurements of cables? Oh wait that's right , this is the "I know what I heard forum". Hopeless.

This is it? You call this "scientific" and useful?

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=40

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=21

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=70

for you to comprehend then stay here and pretend you are the king of the forums . Ignorance is bliss.

It's real world testing and actually doing something other than sitting on your ass and typing on this forum that you "heard" something. You and Mr Kait must be related.

 Please explain to us all why HydrogenAudio forums isn't scientific or useful?

 Perhaps they don't gush about the latest cable fad enough for you.

The more you respond on here the less educated you appear.

Congrats on showing everyone your "education".

 and I noticed ZERO links from you showing any cable tests by Stereophile.

Do your homework, Johnny!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_experiment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_experiments

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-experiment

Uncontrolled testing conditions, small sample sizes, no randomization, poor quality testing equipment... What you see on hydrogen audio hardly qualifies as quasi-experiments.

You're the only one on this thread who claims DBT is necessary to audio reviewing. You're the only one using hydrogenaudio as a reference.

Life must be hard for a megalomaniac. Are you sure you wouldn't want to have a few rounds of double blind testing to see if you recognize the sounds of your own thoughts?

You quote Wikipedia and yet you can't comprehend a simple post over and over and over which is clear to the rest of us. I even had to EXPLAIN to you a simple picture with quote on the Open Bar Forum and you STILL had a stupid comeback for that also. Delusional is your middle name. So you think they aren't doing it correctly? I guess when "Oh there's SUCH an obvious improvement in the sound! becomes "Well, now that I'm doing an ABX, it's just guessing on my part" that it isn't "real" science according to you."Once again your reading comprehension is ZERO. Just go away pseudo-scientific boy just go away.

I'll huff and I'll puff...

At the end of the day, Johnny, do you stop testing yourself and stop ranting at people who don't feel the need to test themselves, and just listen to music?

More blah blah blah from the person that can't figure out what real science is and resorts to silly "cute' sayings.  If you had a clue, you would see that it's testing claims made by manufacturers and equipment NOT the person. When people on here say "I just replaced my cables with Super Pooper Brand and now I can hear a BIG improvement!", then they should be ready to back up their claims somehow other than just "say so". Anyone can say anything on here and it's not held up to scrutiny. Oh yes similar to some of the reviews which is too bad. A little proof and testing would be nice.

Johnny, you seem to like black and white comics and cartoons. Can you read in color too?

anything you read at all? So far your record here is ZIP. Congrats on the failure to accept the real world. Comprehension isn't your claim to fame, that's been proven on these forums for the last month or so. Now have you anything else to say about the OP or are you just wanting to have the last word over and over? I bet if I posted anything in reply, you would have to post too so that you would "feel good" about yourself. Your posts show us all a LOT about your inner child. He's cold and crying for attention.  Sad.

Nah, just want to see how you respond... In fact, look who's psycho-babbling now!! Bazinga!

Admitting to your passions and weaknesses is the first step towards getting some help. You no longer wish to talk about relevant subjects, you " just want to see how you respond". Sad just sad. Get a new hobby please. I'm betting you respond to THIS post also. You can't HELP yourself can you?

Johnny,

Your avatar + your use of long strings of repeated letters, like HAHAHA... or LOLOLO... + your use of other people's words and images, like posting comic panels (ie. lack of imagination and original thinking) + your one dimensional personality = CARTOON

In another universe, this might be called a dialogue. You're not a person with a pathology, you're a cartoon. No trolling, I'm just responding to a cartoon.

YOU respond with yet another off topc post! Told you that you couldn't resist not replying.HAHAHAHAHAHA......there I wouldn't want to dissapoint you. By the way the LOL's are Mr Kaits not mine. Yet again you FAIL at reading comprehension. You should really work on that before you start to look the fool........oops too late.

 Oh looky "Mr Shrink" is trying to turn the tables once again by "analizing" me. Tell you what. I'll pay you for what it's worth which is.............NOTHING. Sorry you get paid a big fat ZERO.

 My avatar shows you and anyone else that I'm a free thinker and not a sheep. You should get one of your own sometime, may I suggest perhaps Dopey of the Seven Dwarfs?  Just trying to help.

So posting comic panels shows lack of immagination? Funny stuff. What do YOU post other than error prone comments that are off topic? Dul dull dull. Get with it.

"In another universe, this might be called a dialogue. You're not a person with a pathology, you're a cartoon. No trolling, I'm just responding to a cartoon."

Nahhhhhhhh anything you have to say isn't a dialogue at all.

I'd rather be called a "cartoon" than a "joke" and a "troll"

You sir FAIL once more at the meaning of words.  A troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

Please try to understand what you are talking about next time before you post something.

Now ONCE again, do YOU have anything to add to the OP???? I meant something that's truthful.

"A troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

Excellent cut and paste job. An excellent description of yourself, by the way.

Geoff Kait
Machinations of Immortality

Using someone else's comics = imagination and free thinking?

sputtering + "HAHAHA..." = dialogue?

geoffkait wrote:

"A troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." Excellent cut and paste job. An excellent description of yourself, by the way. Geoff Kait Machinations of Immortality

 I have already described you several times on here and very accurately in fact......Mr FRAUD.

Your avatar is shown above.You and Chris can both share it.

ChrisS wrote:

Using someone else's comics = imagination and free thinking?

sputtering + "HAHAHA..." = dialogue?

Sputtering ?Show me where I sputtered. I can show you several places where your reading comprehension is crapola.

It sure beats what you offer which is nothing interesting at all.

 Once again Mr Looney Tunes, got anything on topic?  Here's some suggestions for your online name........Druzhok, Sultan, Zhuchko and Tsygan.....see if you can figure that one out. They all fit you.

Chris and Mr Kait, if you don't have anything constructive to add then please go find something else to do.

This was in the OP........"Can anyone point to an example where a human listener (which would include Doug Sax or Joe Harley) can reliably, with greater predictability than random chance, discern an audible difference between ANY two pairs of speaker cables where both have a DC resistance of less than 10% of the speaker impedance and both are less than three meters in length, providing that the listener does not know which is which?"

So, can anyone? Let's see some links proving so.If not then this thread is DONE.

English is a second language for you? Johnny, you Sly Slav!

Might explain an awful lot of things here.... even "sputtering"....

Johnny/Boris,

Are you Russkie? No wonder you don't know The Sound of Music!

Yes, Johnny, we've managed to stretch this into a long and perversely entertaining thread, so back to the OP:

This kind of listening exercise is worthwhile doing only on a personal basis using one's own music system. Everyone else's experience will always vary.

Wasn't this post about the relative merits of different cables, evolving into the merits of balanced vs. unbalanced connections?  What did I miss?  The reason I ask is because every time cable skeptics rear their ugly head, all we hear is about blind test.  Which are useless of course because no one blind listens, and of course because everyone uses their own flavor equipment, and has different hearing abilities across the audio band.  Not to mention aesthetic concerns.  I for example don't trust big fat heavy cables.  No particular reason, I just don't like them.  And that's a fine reason in and of itself, provided they provide a basically neutral balance with most equipment I try them on.  So I have Wasatch, and given they are no longer in business, will lean toward Kimber or Cardas or Nordost should I ever need to change.

If we all used competently built and terminated balanced cables, provided no funny ground loops from poorly designed balanced amplification, all cables would be acceptably similar.  And all cables would probably cost more or less about 50.00.  At which point we could really focus on equipment and setup. 

But here in the real world, we don't.  And with good reason.  Some of the finest audio in the world is single ended and class a valve or FET based.  And with these flavors in mind, what is wrong with the idea of some cables simply being basically better than others?

"The reason I ask is because every time cable skeptics rear their ugly head, all we hear is about blind test.  Which are useless of course because no one blind listens,"

 I would think the BLIND do. Subjectivists always go on about just "using their ears" to  review equipment YET get all flustered when blind listening is suggested which is USING THEIR EARS only!  Go figure.

 DBT testing is not needed to hear differenes in cables, IF you...

 First: get rid of the Cross-over circuits, and

 Second: use a non-interupting switching system

 so the listener can quickly switch from one cable to the

 other cable that is under-test.

  If the cable(s) are or of a quality-design they will

 sound better than the 'standard-twin-lead-power-cord'.

  Curtis Larson

   RosVeta Audio

   Kimber Kables work well in ever system, it is the system

    [ where Kimber Kables do not work...]  that needs to be re-designed ! 

    A balanced cable is better than a single a single ended cable, but some

  balanced systems are not correctly designed to be a true balanced

  in-put, out-put; which deteriorates the balanced cable(s) response.

    Equipment designs have yet to come to a level of knowledge as to what

  parameters are of concern to produce good - FIdelity.

   The low end testing of L,C,R and such is a starting point, but lacks the

  ability of knowing how a cable will respond.

         Higher levels of testing are required.

   Measuring fidelity is done indirectly - comparing Higher level testing:

   Smith Charts, Polar plots, SWR, time delyas etc., with the final:

    Tester . . .  the human ear.

      With an University nearby, we have a large base of various listeners.

 -   -    -

    Sadly though, electrical engineers are still behind the curve as what it takes to

  Build-In FIDELITY.  Until they, we, realize upper levels of testing are required

  and the need to remove all cross-overs from our speaker systems; FIDELITY will

  continue to be under developed.

   Curtis Larson

    RosVeta Audio

Gentlemen,

    The Audio world took a wrong turn in 1935, the year

   when the fisrt separating-circuits for audio signals wwere released.

   Over 70 years [77] later we - audio researchers, listeners - are still plauged

  by that innocent mistake. Then the advance to a three-way spliter adding even

 more to the audio - mistake - low-pass, mid-pass and high-pass filters.

 These filters DISTORT the audio signal in amplitude-phase shifting -

 which changes the timbre of the audio siganl.

-   -    -

  In order to come to a higher level of testing, understanding and agreement

on what is correct in developing systems for a greter FIDELITY, we propose the

following: 

1. Remove the cross-over circuits from you speakers,

2. Use over-lapping circuits [we can supply our designs; to help you design yours]

    these circuits are in the public domain now... and are easily made up.

3. Use testing parameters that use higher frequncies to provide a deeper

    'look' into the cable's charateristics. FM-40 is our test process that is simply

    using a NET-WORK analyzer from 10 to about 45 MHz.

      Plots of SWR, SMITH curves, Polar plots, Group delay, etc.

   WHAT ??

    We use these higher frequencies to 'magnify' the differences in the cable.    

      Frequency-Magnification-40, FM-40.

   We have found that any changes higher than  ~ 45 MHz  in the graphs or plots;

  we could correlate with the human ear, the ear was not able to sense any change.

4. Make up a cable non-interuptable switching circuit(s) to facilitate quick

   changes from one cable to the next, which will easily demonstrate the

   differences in the cables.

        [ we use a 1 second over lap from one circuit to the next]

                          DBT testing is almost useless.

   We highly affirm if you will do these ESOTERIC steps we

    will be able to move on in develpoing better FIDELITY !

     Curtis Larson

     RADAR-software-engineer and metrologist;

     RosVeta Audio