After making, what appears in the clearer vision afforded by hindsight, my very much bravdo statement regarding debunking many right wing myths I suddenly disappear for several days only to return with slightly less bravdo. Anyway I apologize for going missing but since my last post: I suffered through several bad migraines and have been a few long bicycle rides.

So I'm now going to try to respond to several posts that have been made in the past few days.

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I respectfully decline. Obamazombies are not capable of reason. and I have to work for a living even after retirement to survive all this "hope and change" were experiencing

Seriously, political discussions 99 9/10th's percent of the time erupt into a "my Party is better than your Party" free for all.Those aruments are never won and I just choose not to participate in that type of discourse.

I'm just here to learn and make friends thats all.

Good news is...
We do have one thing in common.. the love of Jazz. Let's keep it that way. deal?

Mark

I agree that we all should try to be civil in our responses and not let our political differences get in the way of our enjoyment of audio equipment and our love of music.

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I see your point, but I hope you are mistaken. The political unrest in the country seems to me to be a real grass roots movement to take the country back from the political elite. The tea party folks (I am one) are upset with Washington becoming intrusive, corrupt, and out of touch. So we are touching them.

The Tea Party is anything but a grass roots movement:

Grass Roots my ass!

Grass Roots my ass 2!!!

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You will find there are varying opinions on who and just how much taxes are going to be paid. Right now, Im going on exactly what Obama and his spokesmouth Gibbs are saying. $250,000 or above is considered "the rich" and thier taxes are going to increase.

But the most important question of this whole discussion is:

WHO is defining who the "rich" are. And WHO is defining who the "poor" are??

I believe that you're on the right track here but I will pose a slightly different question:

There seem to be several areas of agreement on this issue between the Republicans and the Democrats - 1) now is not the time to increase taxes on the "middle class" and 2) the really wealthy, say thse earning over $1 million per year can afford the tax increase.

The main area of dispute appears to be that increasing taxes on those making over $250,000 per year will hurt many small businesses and so may futher increase unemployment.

Now my question is why don't either the Republicans or the Democrats offer a compromise solution where only those making over $1 million per year get a tax increase?

Of course my very cynical answer is that by framing the debate along its present lines means that the tax cuts will most likely be extended for everyone, "rich" and poor alike because the Democrats will back down since they will not to be procrived as "hurting" small businesses.

I will say that the Tea Party has one thing right: everyone in Washington is a liar and a cheat and needs to be thrown out.

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Obamazombies are not capable of reason.

With respect, even if you're joking Mark, isn't your usage here part of the problem? That by demonizing those with who you disagree - after all, Obama was legitimately elected to be president, not by "zombies" but by those who felt his policies would be best for the country - it raises the political temperature and reduces the possible of compromise. There is serious debate here, between those who feel that Keynesian actions will work best to bring the US out of recession and those who feel that a laissez-fare approach will work best. But if you disagree with someone, that doesn't mean that they haven't throught long and hard about the subject.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Obamazombies are not capable of reason.

With respect, even if you're joking Mark, isn't your usage here part of the problem? That by demonizing those with who you disagree - after all, Obama was legitimately elected to be president, not by "zombies" but by those who felt his policies would be best for the country - it raises the political temperature and reduces the possible of compromise. There is serious debate here, between those who feel that Keynesian actions will work best to bring the US out of recession and those who feel that a laissez-fare approach will work best. But if you disagree with someone, that doesn't mean that they haven't throught long and hard about the subject.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Sticking with the vernacular....

First rule of "Teabag" Politics: de-legitimize, de-humanize the opposition.

See: Birfers, Obama is a Muslim, etc....

Classic.

Nothing at all to do with policy.

They used to call it "the big lie" for those of you with Google.

("Teabag" was used to match up with "Obamazombie" for fun only. Neither term bothers me, really....although the Teabaggers seem to really love terms like "Kenya Dude," "Obamazombie," "wandering in darkness, etc....anybody notice and ethnic trend? They should just get it over with and start calling him "nigger" and really get their base solidly behind them and frothed up.)

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Obamazombies are not capable of reason.

With respect, even if you're joking Mark, isn't your usage here part of the problem? That by demonizing those with who you disagree - after all, Obama was legitimately elected to be president, not by "zombies" but by those who felt his policies would be best for the country - it raises the political temperature and reduces the possible of compromise. There is serious debate here, between those who feel that Keynesian actions will work best to bring the US out of recession and those who feel that a laissez-fare approach will work best. But if you disagree with someone, that doesn't mean that they haven't throught long and hard about the subject.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Your point is well taken John. I don't believe I was addressing anyone on the forum directly, just indirectly by my bad chioce to use "obamazombies." That term realistically was not to put all sincere voters that supported Obama in the election in the category of an "obamazombie, it was merely to describe those that refuse to find ANY fault in Obama by obfuscation.

I will never use expletives toward anyone like another forum member. Example: Jan Vigne. Thats what got my dander up.

But still thats no excuse. I sincerely apologize If I offended anyone. I was only kidding. I will use better forum decorum in the future.

Thanks for your critique of my bad choice of words.

Edit- John, as you stated earlier, would this demonization of those who disagree include the forum member that just posted below named "JoeE' who usage refers to tea party patriots as "racists"?

Mark

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Obamazombies are not capable of reason.

With respect, even if you're joking Mark, isn't your usage here part of the problem? That by demonizing those with who you disagree - after all, Obama was legitimately elected to be president, not by "zombies" but by those who felt his policies would be best for the country - it raises the political temperature and reduces the possible of compromise. There is serious debate here, between those who feel that Keynesian actions will work best to bring the US out of recession and those who feel that a laissez-fare approach will work best. But if you disagree with someone, that doesn't mean that they haven't throught long and hard about the subject.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Sticking with the vernacular....

First rule of "Teabag" Politics: de-legitimize, de-humanize the opposition.

See: Birfers, Obama is a Muslim, etc....

Classic.

Nothing at all to do with policy.

They used to call it "the big lie" for those of you with Google.

("Teabag" was used to match up with "Obamazombie" for fun only. Neither term bothers me, really....although the Teabaggers seem to really love terms like "Kenya Dude," "Obamazombie," "wandering in darkness, etc....anybody notice and ethnic trend? They should just get it over with and start calling him "nigger" and really get their base solidly behind them and frothed up.)

Tea Party supporters already (for the most part) call President Obama that. A large percentage of Tea Party members/folowers seem to be nothing more than disgruntled racists. They disguise their racism under the guise of "taking back America".

It seems the taking back they really have in mind is taking the country back to before civil rights.

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With respect, even if you're joking Mark, isn't your usage here part of the problem? That by demonizing those with who you disagree - after all, Obama was legitimately elected to be president, not by "zombies" but by those who felt his policies would be best for the country - it raises the political temperature and reduces the possible of compromise. There is serious debate here, between those who feel that Keynesian actions will work best to bring the US out of recession and those who feel that a laissez-fare approach will work best. But if you disagree with someone, that doesn't mean that they haven't throught long and hard about the subject.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

JoeE writes:

A large percentage of Tea Party members/folowers seem to be nothing more than disgruntled racists. They disguise their racism under the guise of "taking back America".

Mark Evans

Mark,

The sad thing is that while the Tea Party may have started out as a real anti-government grass roots movement it was very quickly co-opted and is now heavily funded by very partisan political insiders to be mostly anit-Obama rather than anti-government. Sure several of the more moderate Republicans have been done in by the Tea Party and even some Republicans with full traditional Republican Party backing have gone down as well but these are primaries and candidates who appeal to a party's base usually do well (think of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition for a Democratic parallel). The question remains whether or not these Tea Party/Republican candidates will win in November.

So what we have is a grass roots organization, barely two years old, putting candidates on the ballots for Governor and US Senate in several states and not only on the ballot but on one of the two major party lines!! And all this from an anti-government party!! Please don't insult my intelligence. Sure the joke may be on the Democrats this November but the Democrats will have the last laugh when all you self proclaimed anti-government Tea Baggers realize just how badly you've been played.

Come the end of the day taxes are always going to go up and we are all going to have to die at some point or another. As someone much wiser than I once said "the only things certain in life are death and taxes".

Sorry for the harsh tones but I got a little carried away.

Aside to Joe: the left blogshpere tried the "racist" tack but once the Tea Party got co-opted by the Washington insiders that line of thinking got "officially" discredited.

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Mark,

The sad thing is that while the Tea Party may have started out as a real anti-government grass roots movement it was very quickly co-opted and is now heavily funded by very partisan political insiders to be mostly anit-Obama rather than anti-government. Sure several of the more moderate Republicans have been done in by the Tea Party and even some Republicans with full traditional Republican Party backing have gone down as well but these are primaries and candidates who appeal to a party's base usually do well (think of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition for a Democratic parallel). The question remains whether or not these Tea Party/Republican candidates will win in November.

So what we have is a grass roots organization, barely two years old, putting candidates on the ballots for Governor and US Senate in several states and not only on the ballot but on one of the two major party lines!! And all this from an anti-government party!! Please don't insult my intelligence. Sure the joke may be on the Democrats this November but the Democrats will have the last laugh when all you self proclaimed anti-government Tea Baggers realize just how badly you've been played.

Come the end of the day taxes are always going to go up and we are all going to have to die at some point or another. As someone much wiser than I once said "the only things certain in life are death and taxes".

Sorry for the harsh tones but I got a little carried away.

Aside to Joe: the left blogshpere tried the "racist" tack but once the Tea Party got co-opted by the Washington insiders that line of thinking got "officially" discredited.

Thats fine jazzfan. My tone got a little carried away as well. Thank you for your response. I have read your posts on other topics and I have no doubt that your a good person.

now....lets go listen to some Sonny Rollins

Mark

If the Tea Party were legit, it would have formed before January, 2009.

Unfortunately "officially discredited" and reality are not the same thing. That just makes the more rabid and racist feel vindicated. Read some of the signs displayed and listen to the comments made during that demonstration on MLK day.

Oh, excuse me, it was just coincidental that MLK day was chosen for their demonstration.

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If the Tea Party were legit, it would have formed before January, 2009.

They're winning a lot of elections pissing off Republicans and Democrats. I find a little legitimacy in it. You don't have to like it for it to be bona fide. Anyway, the attention people give it make it legitimate. You don't think Hitler was legitimate? The Dalai Lama? People aren't even referring to them as "tea baggers" like before. Now, it is more like WTF?

Just to clear things up. The so-called "Tea Party" is not a real political party. Don't go to the Teachers' Union Hall and ask to change your voter registration to the Tea Party. You guys are a joke. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

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If the Tea Party were legit, it would have formed before January, 2009.

They're winning a lot of elections pissing off Republicans and Democrats. I find a little legitimacy in it. You don't have to like it for it to be bona fide. Anyway, the attention people give it make it legitimate. You don't think Hitler was legitimate? The Dalai Lama? People aren't even referring to them as "tea baggers" like before. Now, it is more like WTF?

Just to clear things up. The so-called "Tea Party" is not a real political party. Don't go to the Teachers' Union Hall and ask to change your voter registration to the Tea Party. You guys are a joke. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I favor grass roots efforts, so I am conflicted by the Tea Party victories.

Again, no flames aimed at anyone.

It will be an interesting November!

I pray we elect patriots and not cynics.

(Lamont, come to CES.)

I would if I had the time.

Seldom do Americans devote much thought to the many reasons they're image outside their own country is so often negative. So let me tell you bods that outside the US of A the Tea Party, or whatever you want to call it, is universally regarded as a symptom of American political madness and immaturity. We'd view it as funny if it wasn't so sick.

I'm one of those tax and spend liberals, so you might think I'd join in on the tea party bash. But not with you.

I do agree that we don't really think much about how the international critical cognoscenti regards us politically.

We've made plenty of mistakes, but that's what happens when you do all the heavy lifting while the slackers sit back in the comfort of our protection and opinionate on our "immaturity."

You are fortunate your country has the luxury to mind its own business and remain irrelevant.

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Seldom do Americans devote much thought to the many reasons they're image outside their own country is so often negative. So let me tell you bods that outside the US of A the Tea Party, or whatever you want to call it, is universally regarded as a symptom of American political madness and immaturity. We'd view it as funny if it wasn't so sick.

Uh, huh. I can see that.

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The racialist violence at North Cronulla beach erupted under conditions where the Howard government has confronted widespread opposition to an avalanche of regressive legislation

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The racialist violence at North Cronulla beach erupted under conditions where the Howard government has confronted widespread opposition to an avalanche of regressive legislation

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Unfortunately "officially discredited" and reality are not the same thing. That just makes the more rabid and racist feel vindicated. Read some of the signs displayed and listen to the comments made during that demonstration on MLK day.

Oh, excuse me, it was just coincidental that MLK day was chosen for their demonstration.

Joe,

The Republicans acted very quickly in their mostly successful effort to co-opt the Tea Party because they rightly feared that in almost any state wide general, i.e. non-primary, election a three way race between a Tea Party candidate, a Republican candidate and a Democratic candidate would more than likely result in a win for the Democrat, even though the Democrat may not get a majority of the votes (something like a 40%/30%/30% split). No Tea Party member is ever going to vote a Democrat and likewise no Democrat is going to vote for a Tea Party candidate.

Now that the Tea Party has managed to put several of their kinda wacky candidates on the Republican line of the November ballot a full scale cleansing of the more fringe ideas within and about the Tea Party is under way. And so the mass media, in full lock step with their master's will, will no longer entertain any notions about less than noble behavior by the Tea Party. Charges of racism being the first to go.

Notice how nothing within the Tea Party has actually changed - it's still filled with primarily angry white people who just can't tolerate the fact that a black man is in the White House. Is racism still a part of the Tea Party? You bet it is but the mass media will no longer publish any stories along those lines. Period.

Should the Democrats lose control of either or both House of Congress then come January and the new Congress we will begin to see President Obama and the White House charged with one phony trumped up scandal after another. Read the Republican's play book - it rarely changes.

The Republicans will fiddle while Rome burns.

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Notice how nothing within the Tea Party has actually changed - it's still filled with primarily angry white people who just can't tolerate the fact that a black man is in the White House.

*Yawn*

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Should the Democrats lose control of either or both House of Congress then come January and the new Congress we will begin to see President Obama and the White House charged with one phony trumped up scandal after another.

Reaction formation at its finest.

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I
I do agree that we don't really think much about how the international critical cognoscenti regards us politically.
We've made plenty of mistakes, but that's what happens when you do all the heavy lifting while the slackers sit back in the comfort of our protection and opinionate on our "immaturity."
You are fortunate your country has the luxury to mind its own business and remain irrelevant.

Probably about the most absurd & simplistic analysis of US politics I've come across for ages. To start with I find this notion of 'slackers sitting back in the comfort and protection ' offensive in the extreme. Consider the contribution of NATO, Australian & New Zealand forces, including casualties, to US efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan before you go accusing anyone of being slack.
I do wish the US had the 'luxury to mind it's own business'. The world wouldn't be in such a mess. Not that the US is the only guilty party. Other superpowers have flexed their insane military muscle without moral justification over the decades.
China is about to have her turn. The central problem is human nature, a revealing analysis of which can be obtained by reading Arthur Koestler's "The Ghost in The Machine".

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Personally, I think Americans don't give a hoot what is going on Australia. Where exactly is it anyway? Does Australia need to be nuked? That's all I want to know.

Just as they don't give a hoot about the deaths and injuries acquired by the Australian military support for US campaigns in Iraq & Afghanistan.
As to not knowing where we are, ask Oprah.

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Personally, I think Americans don't give a hoot what is going on Australia. Where exactly is it anyway? Does Australia need to be nuked? That's all I want to know.

Just as they don't give a hoot about the deaths and injuries acquired by the Australian military support for US campaigns in Iraq & Afghanistan.
As to not knowing where we are, ask Oprah.

Yeah, and we already know what you think about the Americans casualties to save Australia during the Solomon Campaign. Give it up. You're going to lose. The Americans that survived went to Australia and screwed all your girls. That is really what pisses off Australians. You have American blood in your line forever now.

Where is your contempt against the British for Gallipoli or the even the Boer War?

First, most "thinking" Americans would not ask Oprah anything, and 2nd, in your opinion how would the world look IF America had minded its own business since the Brits were sent home? It is almost ironic that our country was started on greed of expanded trade.

It might have been fine if everyone since then had minded their own business, but that was not the case.

Beginning with Viet Nam we have never entered a war with the clear idea of winning it. Our previous position were not the same. IMHO.

I think America should evict the UN from US soil. Australia can host the UN and pay for everything. It's their turn and people might figure out where they are on the map. They clearly need something to do other than send two dozen soldiers to help NATO in the Middle East, which probably has more to do with the United Kingdom than the US.

I'm curious, what exactly does Australia do? Run Kangaroo ranches? A few beer brewers. Brewer? Brewer? Brewer? Has anybody seen Brewer?

And what is up with Mel Gibson? Is everybody from Australia racist or what?

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Personally, I think Americans don't give a hoot what is going on Australia. Where exactly is it anyway? Does Australia need to be nuked? That's all I want to know.

Just as they don't give a hoot about the deaths and injuries acquired by the Australian military support for US campaigns in Iraq & Afghanistan.
As to not knowing where we are, ask Oprah.

Yeah, and we already know what you think about the Americans casualties to save Australia during the Solomon Campaign. Give it up. You're going to lose. The Americans that survived went to Australia and screwed all your girls. That is really what pisses off Australians. You have American blood in your line forever now.

Where is your contempt against the British for Gallipoli or the even the Boer War?

Myself, I have a very healthy contempt for the British over Gallipoli.
Many Australians also have a long standing loathing for the Brit's - referred to here by the derogatory term 'Poms'.
As to US troops 'screwing all our girls' during the 2nd World War you've really put your foot in it this time darling. A seldom spoken of aspect of US R&R stints in Australia during WW2 & later Korean & Vietnam wars is the astonishing availability of American service men for gay sex . Yes that's right, your boys were an absolute bonanza for Australian faggots during those conflicts. The Australian Gay & Lesbian Archives, held in Melbourne, contain some fascinating insights into this untold story.
One taped reminiscence describes an episode on a beach in Vietnam where US troops placed a large tarpaulin on the sand, covered themselves & consenting Australian troops with cooking oil and proceeded to F**k each other silly. I have fond recollections of reading, as a pre-teen, toilet wall graffiti left behind by US troops at Albury Station on the border of Victoria & New South Wales, 90% of which was homosexual in content. I could give dozens of other examples but in the interests of 'international relations' shall desist.
Oh, and you lost the Solomon debate or don't you remember the figures quoted for Australian casualties in New Guinea and elswhere?

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I think America should evict the UN from US soil.

Agreed but I'd place it in Jerusalem. That should sort out those idiotic semitic tribes and their ancient, irrational conflicts.

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Australia can host the UN and pay for everything. It's their turn and people might figure out where they are on the map.

Interesting how American literacy is such that you can't read an atlas.

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They clearly need something to do other than send two dozen soldiers to help NATO in the Middle East, which probably has more to do with the United Kingdom than the US.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but you've got the numbers wrong.

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I'm curious, what exactly does Australia do? Run Kangaroo ranches? A few beer brewers. Brewer? Brewer? Brewer? Has anybody seen Brewer?

Seeing as how this forum's main concern is Hi-Fi have a look at :- http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/
http://www.halcro.com/
http://www.legendspeakers.com.au/
http://www.sydneyoperahouse.com/

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And what is up with Mel Gibson? Is everybody from Australia racist or what?

Yes, as we'd say in Australia, he's as mad as a cut snake and an evangelical conservative Roman Catholic to boot.

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Personally, I think Americans don't give a hoot what is going on Australia. Where exactly is it anyway? Does Australia need to be nuked? That's all I want to know.

Thank you Lamont. I one succinct sentence you've crystalized the American political mentality.

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Personally, I think Americans don't give a hoot what is going on Australia. Where exactly is it anyway? Does Australia need to be nuked? That's all I want to know.

Thank you Lamont. I one succinct sentence you've crystalized the American political mentality.

That wasn't political. It was personal.

JA ans Stephen:

Would you please be so kind as to close out this thread since nothing worthwhile as been posted in quite some time and of course out of respect for those who perished on 9/11.

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JA ans Stephen:

Would you please be so kind as to close out this thread since nothing worthwhile as been posted in quite some time and of course out of respect for those who perished on 9/11.

Fair enough out of respect for those who perished on 9/11 but nothing worthwhile ? HM!

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JA ans Stephen:

Would you please be so kind as to close out this thread since nothing worthwhile as been posted in quite some time and of course out of respect for those who perished on 9/11.

You have to be kidding me? You turned this thread into one about race. Now you want it closed out of respect for all those white people killed on 911. What kind of brother are you?

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JA ans Stephen:

Would you please be so kind as to close out this thread since nothing worthwhile as been posted in quite some time and of course out of respect for those who perished on 9/11.

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Fair enough out of respect for those who perished on 9/11 but nothing worthwhile ? HM!

Simply stated: A flame war is never, ever "worthwhile". You may not have started the flame war but neither have you done anything to end it and bring civility back to the discussion.

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You have to be kidding me? You turned this thread into one about race. Now you want it closed out of respect for all those white people killed on 911. What kind of brother are you?

I may be guilty of bringing politics into this thread but I did not bring race or racism into it. Nor do I respond to my fellow forum members well thought out and carefully written posts with nonsensical one sentence dismissals and personal attacks. Those, my friend, are your methods. So play nice and maybe we'll let you back in the sandbox.

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I may be guilty of bringing politics into this thread but I did not bring race or racism into it...

Now you're just a liar. Did you not post this...

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it's still filled with primarily angry white people who just can't tolerate the fact that a black man is in the White House.

Racism is about perception you nincompoop. That is a racist statement stereotyping something that makes you uncomfortable. It is blatantly and obviously redirecting poor performance to one more threatening; the race card. You opened up a can of worms and then want the thread closed? Up yours Kilroy.

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I may be guilty of bringing politics into this thread but I did not bring race or racism into it...

Now you're just a liar. Did you not post this...

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it's still filled with primarily angry white people who just can't tolerate the fact that a black man is in the White House.

Racism is about perception you nincompoop. That is a racist statement stereotyping something that makes you uncomfortable. It is blatantly and obviously redirecting poor performance to one more threatening; the race card. You opened up a can of worms and then want the thread closed? Up yours Kilroy.

Once again you prove my point with your inane response.

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You have to be kidding me? You turned this thread into one about race. Now you want it closed out of respect for all those white people killed on 911. What kind of brother are you?

I didn't bring racism INTO the thread I only responded after others as already opened the racism can of worms.

Regarding:

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It is blatantly and obviously redirecting poor performance to one more threatening; the race card.

I'm not 100% sure exactly what you mean by this statement but if it is in defense of the legitimacy of the Tea Party has a movement which is not about race but only about Obama's performance then let me point out how the beginnings of the Tea Party date from February 2009, less than one after Obama took office. Performance based my ass, it was and still is a racist movement that has, through the magic of big time Washington insiders and a willing mass media, been somehow cleansed of this simple and easily proved FACT.

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I'm not 100% sure exactly what you mean by this statement but if it is in defense of the legitimacy of the Tea Party has a movement which is not about race but only about Obama's performance then let me point out how the beginnings of the Tea Party date from February 2009, less than one after Obama took office.

It really is simple, lots of people can't cope with the fact a black man won the election.

Look at the birthers, the "Obama is Muslim" crap, the various cartoons depicting eithee Obama or spouse as a monkey, etc.

Sorry, the racism is simply open, forthright, and quite obviously intentional.

If you support the teabaggers, you support racism. That's the fact.

That's a shame, because there are valid concerns inside the movement, but they are so polluted with sheer hatred based on race that there's no "there" there.

Sadly, everybody's seen that before...

All this displacement would make Gandhi throw up.

Sheriff Bart rode into town and did a good job in the face of racism. Sheriff Obama rode into town and did not do a good job. Therefore, it must be racism. It's racism because he is not doing a good job? Or is it racism that is preventing him from not doing a good job? Or is he just not able to do a good job? Did you not hear the president when he stated it was his fault? I don't recall him saying racism was to blame. I heard him say he was to blame. So, lets blame him.

What I'm actually trolling for here is some good ol' projection. We've covered all the defense mechanisms except projection.

Actually, it is all over the thread. I was just kidding because you're stupid. Get it? You're stupid. Projection.

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I'm not 100% sure exactly what you mean by this statement but if it is in defense of the legitimacy of the Tea Party has a movement which is not about race but only about Obama's performance then let me point out how the beginnings of the Tea Party date from February 2009, less than one after Obama took office.

It really is simple, lots of people can't cope with the fact a black man won the election.

Look at the birthers, the "Obama is Muslim" crap, the various cartoons depicting eithee Obama or spouse as a monkey, etc.

Sorry, the racism is simply open, forthright, and quite obviously intentional.

If you support the teabaggers, you support racism. That's the fact.

That's a shame, because there are valid concerns inside the movement, but they are so polluted with sheer hatred based on race that there's no "there" there.

JJ I couldn't agree more but the points I was trying to make are:

1) The origins of the Tea Party could not possibly have been about Obama and the Democrats 'performance" since the movement was started before Obama had been in office less than a month. in addition, the first major Tea Party rally was held on April 15th, 2009 in protest of the Obama tax increases - to put it bluntly - What fucking tax increases?????????????? The tax code for 2008 (the year whose taxes are due on 4/15/09) was written while Bush was President. But trying to win an argument with a Tea Bagger by using FACTS is never going to work.

2) Now that the Tea Party has been taken over and is being run by big time Washington insiders the media has been told that the Tea Party is only about voter anger. So while the racist leanings within the Tea Party have not been removed they can no longer be a topic of discussion since the Tea Party is now about anger. Fucking brilliant!!!

A few days ago i wrote this:

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Should the Democrats lose control of either or both House of Congress then come January and the new Congress we will begin to see President Obama and the White House charged with one phony trumped up scandal after another. Read the Republican's play book - it rarely changes.

Now the above may seem a little far fetched for many of you but perhaps if you heard it from someone more qualified than yours truly you might think twice:

Clinton backs me up!

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I'm not 100% sure exactly what you mean by this statement but if it is in defense of the legitimacy of the Tea Party has a movement which is not about race but only about Obama's performance then let me point out how the beginnings of the Tea Party date from February 2009, less than one after Obama took office.

It really is simple, lots of people can't cope with the fact a black man won the election.

Look at the birthers, the "Obama is Muslim" crap, the various cartoons depicting eithee Obama or spouse as a monkey, etc.

Sorry, the racism is simply open, forthright, and quite obviously intentional.

If you support the teabaggers, you support racism. That's the fact.

That's a shame, because there are valid concerns inside the movement, but they are so polluted with sheer hatred based on race that there's no "there" there.

JJ I couldn't agree more but the points I was trying to make are:

1) The origins of the Tea Party could not possibly have been about Obama and the Democrats 'performance" since the movement was started before Obama had been in office less than a month. in addition, the first major Tea Party rally was held on April 15th, 2009 in protest of the Obama tax increases - to put it bluntly - What fucking tax increases?????????????? The tax code for 2008 (the year whose taxes are due on 4/15/09) was written while Bush was President. But trying to win an argument with a Tea Bagger by using FACTS is never going to work.

2) Now that the Tea Party has been taken over and is being run by big time Washington insiders the media has been told that the Tea Party is only about voter anger. So while the racist leanings within the Tea Party have not been removed they can no longer be a topic of discussion since the Tea Party is now about anger. Fucking brilliant!!!

A few days ago i wrote this:

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Should the Democrats lose control of either or both House of Congress then come January and the new Congress we will begin to see President Obama and the White House charged with one phony trumped up scandal after another. Read the Republican's play book - it rarely changes.

Now the above may seem a little far fetched for many of you but perhaps if you heard it from someone more qualified than yours truly you might think twice:

Clinton backs me up!

So, you don't want the thread closed?

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JA ans Stephen:

Would you please be so kind as to close out this thread since nothing worthwhile as been posted in quite some time and of course out of respect for those who perished on 9/11.

I'll move the thread into the Open Bar, but I'll keep it open.

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So, you don't want the thread closed?

Not as long as people play nice and stop name calling and other childish behavior.

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So, you don't want the thread closed?

Not as long as people play nice and stop name calling and other childish behavior.

From my perspective there are two important ways those who died and those who were injured on 9/11 should be honored. The US Gov't should
foot the bill for medical expenses of those left behind with us and all of us should devote some thought to what it is about religious belief that can lead people to commit so monstrous an act. Hiding behind the curtain of political correctness, that these days protects all religion, is a form of moral cowardliness none of us can afford.
Those who claim Islam is a peaceful religion are as misguided as those who imagine the God of the old testament isn't cruel, vengeful and capricious.
A close examination of many so called Holy Books, not just the Koran, explains a lot :-
"O our Lord, For the day of whose coming there is not a doubt, thou wilt surely gather mankind together. Verily, God will not fail the promise.
As for the infidels, their wealth, and their children, shall avail them nothing against God. They shall be fuel for the fire.
After the want of Pharoah, and of those who went before them, they treated our signs as falsehood. Therefore God laid hold of them in their sins; and God is severe in punishing!
Say to the infidels: he shall be worsted, and to Hell shall ye be gathered together; and wretched the couch! " Koran: Sura 3. V: 7- 10.

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So, you don't want the thread closed?

Not as long as people play nice and stop name calling and other childish behavior.

From my perspective there are two important ways those who died and those who were injured on 9/11 should be honored. The US Gov't should
foot the bill for medical expenses of those left behind with us and all of us should devote some thought to what it is about religious belief that can lead people to commit so monstrous an act. Hiding behind the curtain of political correctness, that these days protects all religion, is a form of moral cowardliness none of us can afford.
Those who claim Islam is a peaceful religion are as misguided as those who imagine the God of the old testament isn't cruel, vengeful and capricious.
A close examination of many so called Holy Books, not just the Koran, explains a lot :-
"O our Lord, For the day of whose coming there is not a doubt, thou wilt surely gather mankind together. Verily, God will not fail the promise.
As for the infidels, their wealth, and their children, shall avail them nothing against God. They shall be fuel for the fire.
After the want of Pharoah, and of those who went before them, they treated our signs as falsehood. Therefore God laid hold of them in their sins; and God is severe in punishing!
Say to the infidels: he shall be worsted, and to Hell shall ye be gathered together; and wretched the couch! " Koran: Sura 3. V: 7- 10.

Things that are allowable:

Claiming the no one religion is "better" than any other religion.

Claiming that a religion advocates the killing of infidels.

Claiming that on the whole religion is a "good" thing.

Ringing a strangers door bell to deliver some kind of religious pitch.

Disputing a scientific "theory" because no irrefutable "proof" exists. (think global warming or even evolution)

Things that are NOT allowable:

Claiming the one religion is "better" than another religion.

Claiming that all religions advocate the killing of infidels.

Claiming that on the whole religion is a "bad" thing.

Ringing a strangers door bell to deliver some kind of anti-religious pitch.

Disputing a religious "theory" because no irrefutable "proof" exists. (think the afterlife or even the existence of god)

As you can see you just violated a few of these rules.

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Things that are allowable:

Allowable? By whom?

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Claiming the no one religion is "better" than any other religion..............etc
Things that are NOT allowable:..........etc

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As you can see you just violated a few of these rules.

So, burn me at the stake if you can get away with it.

We can burn you at the stake. Getting away with it is just an afterthought.