Cardboard boxes filled with fluffy fiberglass works even better, though newspaper might be okay if it's crumpled up. Stacked solid, I can't imagine paper would be very effective, though it might absorb a little.

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps, but posting on my own behalf
And always using my real name

Have either of you tested steam pipe insulation, the 12" diameter stuff made for a 4" pipe?

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Have either of you tested steam pipe insulation, the 12" diameter stuff made for a 4" pipe?

I tell ya, I've been lookin at the ultra dense rigid fiberglass and I'm thinkin for about 10K I can make my next listening room pretty much a perfect one with little intrusiveness from the treatment. Am I wrong?

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Have either of you tested steam pipe insulation, the 12" diameter stuff made for a 4" pipe?

I've never tested that particular material, but I have tested round bass traps. The main issue is size, and a 12 inch diameter is too small to be effective to a low enough frequency. Versus a typical 24 inch wide flat panel that's at least 3 or 4 inches thick. Once you get to 20 inches in diameter a tube shape works well.

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps, but posting on my own behalf
And always using my real name

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Have either of you tested steam pipe insulation, the 12" diameter stuff made for a 4" pipe?

I've never tested that particular material, but I have tested round bass traps. The main issue is size, and a 12 inch diameter is too small to be effective to a low enough frequency. Versus a typical 24 inch wide flat panel that's at least 3 or 4 inches thick. Once you get to 20 inches in diameter a tube shape works well.

--Ethan

Um, bear in mind it comes in 10' long chunks.

10' is certainly a decent length...

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Of course. I have not said otherwise. It is one of several possible explanations for the anecdotal observation I offered in my RMAF report. If you have read Stereophile for any length of time, you will remember when I described the positive effect of an inexpensive tweak that was only evident when the person demonstrating it, Enid Lumley, was in the room. The true test is when you get in home and can try it in your own system without a third-party present, which was the case in the case of this tweak, which I concluded did nothing.

If this was the pizza tripod, well I find it ironic because I was experimenting with one just last night (hadn't done so in years), and not only did it work for me, but I quite enjoyed the particular (if not particularly profound) effect it had on my sound. Definitely moved it in the right direction. But mine was "specially modified", so I hadn't heard it "straight". Altough I appreciate Ms. Lumley may have been quite the character, I don't think the presence of a tweak passes or fails depending upon the physical presence of the device's proponent. Rather, in my experience with such tweaks, it is more credible to believe that they pass or fail depending on the conditions of the test (that's providing they pass the listener's threshold, who is going to be unfamiliar with their sonic effect). In this sense yes, the presence of the conductor can have a large influence on the result, if they have particular knowledge of how the tweak should be set up for best result, and this knowledge is not passed on to the experimenter repeating the test. For this reason, I am successful in producing significant and meaningful changes in the sound of other people's hifi systems using "Enid-approved tweaks", whereas I know my friends having no knowledge or experience with such things would not be anywhere near as successful, if I just gave them the same products and said "good luck".

John is of course right that you can't (or rather shouldn't) always assume a product works or doesn't work because of how you think it is supposed to work, or even how the manufacturer thinks it is supposed to work. Some products, like the tripod, or to use an example more understandable to most, a "good bottle of gin", affect the sound we hear in ways that most, as we see repeated in this thread, tend to be completely oblivious to in their analysis of what may or may not be going on. Ways that affect neither the acoustics, nor the equipment.

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New to the forum yet already you're making demands and throwing your weight around? I haven't identified the engineer who will doing the work because I want to keep that person as independent as possible.

Now I really can not refrain from saying that I have noticed new members recently, popping up "all of a sudden" on the ART threads. Full in the thick of things with HEATED opinions that are of an EXTREME BIAS. And do they have anything in common? Well yes. They seem to be here entirely to dump on Ted Denney and S-ART. Where have we seen this before? Does Sean Olive and Hydrogen Audio ring a bell perhaps? So these plants, I mean "new members" post transparently biased replies to people to where things like a little teeny 500 millisecond difference in starting one of the tests becomes "HUGE EFFIN' DIFFERENCES YOU CAN DRIVE A GALAXY THROUGH!!!!!!" ("in their humble opinion of course")".

How many sockpuppets does Ethan Winer have anyway? Anyone care to venture a guess?

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Have either of you tested steam pipe insulation, the 12" diameter stuff made for a 4" pipe?

I've never tested that particular material, but I have tested round bass traps. The main issue is size, and a 12 inch diameter is too small to be effective to a low enough frequency. Versus a typical 24 inch wide flat panel that's at least 3 or 4 inches thick. Once you get to 20 inches in diameter a tube shape works well.

--Ethan

Ethan, I am getting tired of telling you this: as a manufacturer you _must_ include your affilation in your signature line. Here you are giving us your opinions on another manufacturer's products. It is essential, therefore for others to know that you are a manufactuer of a competing product.

You give us little choice on what to do next: I have discussed this with Stephen Mejias who moderates the forum. Either you include your affilitaion in _every_ posting you make to this forum or we shall ban you from posting except in the Manufacturers section.

Please note that this has nothing to do with your opinions, but is only concerned with your apparent unwillingness to observe this forum's posting rules.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Sorry John, I musta missed one. Fixed now. It's not my intent to deceive anyone. And it's not like there isn't another post by me containing my full info within a screenful or two away.

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps, but posting on my own behalf
And always using my real name

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Sorry John, I musta missed one. Fixed now.

Thank you, Ethan.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Still doubt me? Take a listen to your system, Pause, smoke a joint, listen again. You will perceive major differences yet the sound is not changed at all. Do the same thing tomorrow, you will perceive the same change. There is a repeatable effect but it affects the listener, not the sound.

By that reasoning then, which I do agree with, just using your ears to evaluate any piece of equipment means nothing in the long term and such tests are not a good way to design or to tell if a certain product does anything at all.

True, if you somehow can not avoid being high all day long, in your job as an audio researcher. I don't know how that might affect your chosen occupation though. Perhaps it wouldn't.

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By your own admission then if I listened to Ted explain in person at one of his demos how and why his product works then he has already influenced my decision by altering how I think.

You seem to be suggesting here that Ted's voice has a narcotic effect on people. Hmmm.... maybe he's working on the wrong product then.

"How I think" about how a product works or doesn't work, whether I even know how an audio product works or not, has never ever influenced whether I will buy it or pass on it. I suggest that if you're more easily persuaded by marketing than by hearing, then you are probably better off investing your hard-earned money in infrastructure. That's where the smart money is going these days, Mr. (trol)L. In these shaky times of bursting housing bubbles, predator lending and Granpa Munster making off with $65 billion, infrastructure is where it's at, my friend. Fortunately for you, I've got a very fine bridge that I might be putting on the market. PM me for details.

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Just listening to music with and without his little bowls would not be a good way to tell if they work at all then.

Of course not, that would be silly. But you see, that's where the joints come in.

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But you already said that maybe we can't find an explanation as to why Ted's bowls work. That leaves open the door for people to just go "Oh well what we don't know isn't important"

In audio, it isn't. All that is important is what you perceive. It's no different from the fact that it isn't important to you whether Ted has the entire faculty of the AES. You'll still never be persuaded to buy any of his products, because you have already made up your mind about them.

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Why isn't the third party that you commissioned not been identified yet if everything is on the up and up? Just who is this expert that's going to decide if Ted's little bowls work?

As anyone can see, this is obviously a conspiracy designed to make you ask stupid questions that ought not to be dignified with an answer. But just between you and me, I heard the "expert" who is going to decide if Ted's "little bowls" work is Peter Aczel. Or as you might better know him, "dad". Don't worry jr., your secret is safe with me.

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Ethan, I am getting tired of telling you this: as a manufacturer you _must_ include your affilation in your signature line.

Why are you not enforcing the same on Frog? This is quite unfair John, not just to me but to everyone who posts or even reads this forum. This is not the first time I've pointed out the disparity.

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps, but posting on my own behalf
And always using my real name

Hey, Ethan, I was wondering what mike you're showing in your post of the waterfall graph tests earlier in this thread. I've tried Behringer and homemade mikes (ala Linkwitz) and had pretty good results. The mike in your photo looks like an older AKG...

John, just curious, since Buddha exhibits at CES, does this rule include his industry affiliations too?

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I was wondering what mike you're showing in your post of the waterfall graph tests earlier in this thread.

That's a DPA 4090. Great microphone!

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps, but posting on my own behalf
And always using my real name

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New to the forum yet already you're making demands and throwing your weight around? I haven't identified the engineer who will doing the work because I want to keep that person as independent as possible.

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Now I really can not refrain from saying that I have noticed new members recently, popping up "all of a sudden" on the ART threads. Full in the thick of things with HEATED opinions that are of an EXTREME BIAS. And do they have anything in common? Well yes. They seem to be here entirely to dump on Ted Denney and S-ART. Where have we seen this before? Does Sean Olive and Hydrogen Audio ring a bell perhaps? So these plants, I mean "new members" post transparently biased replies to people to where things like a little teeny 500 millisecond difference in starting one of the tests becomes "HUGE EFFIN' DIFFERENCES YOU CAN DRIVE A GALAXY THROUGH!!!!!!" ("in their humble opinion of course")".

How many sockpuppets does Ethan Winer have anyway? Anyone care to venture a guess?

Well duhhhhhh Ted Denney's S-Art system does seem to be the topic so what's the problem? Paranoid much? I state here that I am my own person with my own opinions and no one elses. If my opinions agree with those you don't like well, too bad.If you have proof that I am a plant then please post the proof otherwise shut up. A "teeny" 500 millisecond error IS a big problem if you know anything about measurements which I am beginning to doubt. Have fun with your delusions.

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Still doubt me? Take a listen to your system, Pause, smoke a joint, listen again. You will perceive major differences yet the sound is not changed at all. Do the same thing tomorrow, you will perceive the same change. There is a repeatable effect but it affects the listener, not the sound.

By that reasoning then, which I do agree with, just using your ears to evaluate any piece of equipment means nothing in the long term and such tests are not a good way to design or to tell if a certain product does anything at all.

True, if you somehow can not avoid being high all day long, in your job as an audio researcher. I don't know how that might affect your chosen occupation though. Perhaps it wouldn't.

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By your own admission then if I listened to Ted explain in person at one of his demos how and why his product works then he has already influenced my decision by altering how I think.

You seem to be suggesting here that Ted's voice has a narcotic effect on people. Hmmm.... maybe he's working on the wrong product then.

"How I think" about how a product works or doesn't work, whether I even know how an audio product works or not, has never ever influenced whether I will buy it or pass on it. I suggest that if you're more easily persuaded by marketing than by hearing, then you are probably better off investing your hard-earned money in infrastructure. That's where the smart money is going these days, Mr. (trol)L. In these shaky times of bursting housing bubbles, predator lending and Granpa Munster making off with $65 billion, infrastructure is where it's at, my friend. Fortunately for you, I've got a very fine bridge that I might be putting on the market. PM me for details.

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Just listening to music with and without his little bowls would not be a good way to tell if they work at all then.

Of course not, that would be silly. But you see, that's where the joints come in.

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But you already said that maybe we can't find an explanation as to why Ted's bowls work. That leaves open the door for people to just go "Oh well what we don't know isn't important"

In audio, it isn't. All that is important is what you perceive. It's no different from the fact that it isn't important to you whether Ted has the entire faculty of the AES. You'll still never be persuaded to buy any of his products, because you have already made up your mind about them.

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Why isn't the third party that you commissioned not been identified yet if everything is on the up and up? Just who is this expert that's going to decide if Ted's little bowls work?

As anyone can see, this is obviously a conspiracy designed to make you ask stupid questions that ought not to be dignified with an answer. But just between you and me, I heard the "expert" who is going to decide if Ted's "little bowls" work is Peter Aczel. Or as you might better know him, "dad". Don't worry jr., your secret is safe with me.

I can see why Ethan refrains from talking to you on here since all you know is "witty" comebacks and snide remarks that lend nothing to the subject at hand. Consider yourself on my list also and not worth responding to from now on also. *CROAK*

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I can see why Ethan refrains from talking to you on here since all you know is "witty" comebacks and snide remarks that lend nothing to the subject at hand. Consider yourself on my list also and not worth responding to from now on also. *CROAK*

"Michigan J. Frog" has shown that he or she has nothing whatsoever to offer to this board except defamation, misinformation, and conspiracy theories regarding audio technology and perception.

It is a good idea to ignore "Michigan J. Frog".

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Ethan, I am getting tired of telling you this: as a manufacturer you _must_ include your affilation in your signature line.

Why are you not enforcing the same on Frog? This is quite unfair John, not just to me but to everyone who posts or even reads this forum. This is not the first time I've pointed out the disparity.

Ands as I have pointed out to you before Ethan, Frog is not a manufacturer or a dealer and does not, therefore, have to include an affiliation in his postings. As much as you seem to try to distance yourself from the fact, you _are_ a manufacturer and are obliged to do so. It's a simple rule. Follow it.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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John, just curious, since Buddha exhibits at CES, does this rule include his industry affiliations too?

Yes, Buddha displays at THE Show as Not For Sale Audio, a name that contains within itself the reason why he is not required to include an industry affiliation.

john Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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John, just curious, since Buddha exhibits at CES, does this rule include his industry affiliations too?

Yes, Buddha displays at THE Show as Not For Sale Audio, a name that contains within itself the reason why he is not required to include an industry affiliation.

john Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

This Synergistic ART thing has gone so badly, Jan is reduced to trying to Limbaugh the topic.

Jan: "Guh, guh, guh, Ethan is a fucker, and I'm going to try to tattle on Buddha!"

Ms. Vigne, I can tell, elementary school must have been a real bitch for you.

Economy-wise...

Luckily, NFS Audio has had completely stable revenues in this down economy and is proud to announce that we are the only exhibitor to be able to validly claim that...

Our revenue X infinity = our revenue.

Conversely...

Our revenue divided by infinity shows no loss of revenue! Let's see any other "industry affiliate" match those numbers!

In all honesty, I do have an industry affilitation: Stereophile subscriber!

Jan, you are, and remain, pitiful.

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Ands as I have pointed out to you before Ethan, Frog is not a manufacturer or a dealer and does not, therefore, have to include an affiliation in his postings. As much as you seem to try to distance yourself from the fact, you _are_ a manufacturer and are obliged to do so. It's a simple rule. Follow it.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

And, as I've suggested once or three times before, why not make everyone post with a NIC and information tracable to their actual identity. You know, like me, Ethan, Sasaudio, etc do.

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Ands as I have pointed out to you before Ethan, Frog is not a manufacturer or a dealer and does not, therefore, have to include an affiliation in his postings. As much as you seem to try to distance yourself from the fact, you _are_ a manufacturer and are obliged to do so. It's a simple rule. Follow it.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

And, as I've suggested once or three times before, why not make everyone post with a NIC and information tracable to their actual identity. You know, like me, Ethan, Sasaudio, etc do.

I'd be in favor of that, except Ethan has been known to stalk members here and comment about personal information.

Ethan proved that this requirement could lead to the misuse of information.

As I recall, he tracked Jan to his home address and posted about his foliage, or something. Terrible precedent.

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I'd be in favor of that, except Ethan has been known to stalk members here and comment about personal information.

Ethan proved that this requirement could lead to the misuse of information.

As I recall, he tracked Jan to his home address and posted about his foliage, or something. Terrible precedent.

I think it was worse than that. I think Ethan posted the detailed blue prints of Jan's house and exposed the secret masturbation room.

The alternative is randomizing all NIC's, and making everyone anonymous.

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Ands as I have pointed out to you before Ethan, Frog is not a manufacturer or a dealer and does not, therefore, have to include an affiliation in his postings. As much as you seem to try to distance yourself from the fact, you _are_ a manufacturer and are obliged to do so. It's a simple rule. Follow it.

And, as I've suggested once or three times before, why not make everyone post with a NIC and information tracable to their actual identity. You know, like me, Ethan, Sasaudio, etc do.

Stephen Mejias, as moderator, has access to posters' email addresses. That, I suggest, is sufficient.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Luckily, NFS Audio has had completely stable revenues in this down economy and is proud to announce that we are the only exhibitor to be able to validly claim that...

Our revenue X infinity = our revenue.

Conversely...

Our revenue divided by infinity shows no loss of revenue! Let's see any other "industry affiliate" match those numbers!

Reminds me of the claim that an amplifier has infinitely low distortion and noise when it is turned off. To which it can be answered that as the noise and distortion are zero but so is the signal, distortion and noise are infinitely high!

Now here's a thought, triggered by my first beer of the evening (an Anchor Steam). We all now live in a bath of 2.4GHz radiation, which, coincidentally, is the frequency microwave ovens operate on. Look at the dimensions of Ted Denney's bowls: could it be that they are diffracting/reflecting that RF bath away from the listener, thus improving his state of mind and his receptivity to the music?

Good stuff, beer!

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Actually John they do exhibit some rather interesting characteristics at very high frequencies.

1st (and only) Bombay Sapphire for me

Ted Denney III
Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc.

"We all now live in a bath of 2.4GHz radiation, which, coincidentally, is the frequency microwave ovens operate on. Look at the dimensions of Ted Denney's bowls: could it be that they are diffracting/reflecting that RF bath away from the listener, thus improving his state of mind and his receptivity to the music?"

You might not remember Ultra Tweeters from Golden Sound from several years ago. The Ultras operate around the same frequency, 2-3 GHz.

But the real explanation for the bowls just might be somewhere in this article from 6moons (Boo!)...

Franck Tchang's Bowls

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Look at the dimensions of Ted Denney's bowls: could it be that they are diffracting/reflecting that RF bath away from the listener, thus improving his state of mind and his receptivity to the music?

Binaural beats, John, binaural beats. We've been through this already.

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Stephen Mejias, as moderator, has access to posters' email addresses. That, I suggest, is sufficient.

Hardly.

If people IN the industry have to identify themselves, why not everyone?

Or is the goal to make everyone in the industry a target for abuse? I doubt VERY much you intend that, John, but that, practically speaking, is the RESULT of the policy.

Full disclosure, I think, means that those who persist in soiling the board will also then be soiling themselves.

If somebody has REALLY stalked someone else, now that's a different issue, and one for law enforcement.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the real explanation for the bowls just might be somewhere in this article from 6moons (Boo!)...
Franck Tchang's Bowls
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you mean Srajan's mullet?!"

Is a mullet a resonator or an absorber? Is a mullet an example of comb filter effect? Or would it be comb-over effect? So many questions....guess I'll have to consult an expert.

If I'm not me, who am I?

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Or is the goal to make everyone in the industry a target for abuse? I doubt VERY much you intend that, John, but that, practically speaking, is the RESULT of the policy.

Exactly, especially when you have people who express themselves very strongly in such a foul manner. I have never seen anyone with as much hate and venom as the frog. Frog is the quintessential sock-puppet, yet see how he accuses others of that! No normal non-industry person could have so much hate to write the stuff that frog writes. Even Jan is more civil, and that's saying a lot! Ken Hotte and Jan have the good sense to stay out of this after Ted's mea culpa. But not the Frog.

For JA to pretend that froggy does not have a vested interest in discrediting me is disingenuous at best.

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If somebody has REALLY stalked someone else, now that's a different issue, and one for law enforcement.

LOL, here's a brief recap as best I can remember: Jan Vigne was harrassing me about some aspect of gear and/or room acoustics, so I asked him to describe his listening system as a point of reference. A few others also asked him for details. Jan refused, apparently embarrassed by his own gear choices. This went on for a very long time, with people asking Jan about his gear and Jan refusing. So one day I went to Google Maps and showed a photo of his driveway, hinting that maybe we can peek in the window and see his speakers.

It was meant as a joke to defuse (no surprise) an extremely hostile thread with (no surprise) tons of insults against (no surprise) me. Jan and some others blew it way out of proportion, the proof being they're still talking about it years later.

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps, but posting on my own behalf
And always using my real name

There are worse and some of them call you a friend. You went to far even if it were meant as a joke. Being right on technical matters is not a licence for bad behavior.

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Or is the goal to make everyone in the industry a target for abuse? I doubt VERY much you intend that, John, but that, practically speaking, is the RESULT of the policy.

Exactly, especially when you have people who express themselves very strongly in such a foul manner.

Hmmm, let's pull up Ethan's very first reply after Ted posted his 'data,' shall we?

Remeber, these were the first words out of Ethan's mouth:

"Ted, I would have ignored your obviously BS "data" if you didn't bump this thread. I'll be as direct as possible:

I call bullshit. That data is clearly fabricated. Made up. Fraudulent. Outright lies. Rigged. Photoshopped."

Yeah, that's an example of effective communication!

Ethan is right, everybody should have approached the subject much more civilly, like Ethan did!

I have never seen anyone with as much hate and venom as the frog. Frog is the quintessential sock-puppet, yet see how he accuses others of that! No normal non-industry person could have so much hate to write the stuff that frog writes. Even Jan is more civil, and that's saying a lot! Ken Hotte and Jan have the good sense to stay out of this after Ted's mea culpa. But not the Frog.

Did you ever see the movie Sandman? Careful with whose names you keep repeating.

For JA to pretend that froggy does not have a vested interest in discrediting me is disingenuous at best.

Michigan just wants to keep you semantically honest.

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If somebody has REALLY stalked someone else, now that's a different issue, and one for law enforcement.

LOL, here's a brief recap as best I can remember: Jan Vigne was harrassing me about some aspect of gear and/or room acoustics, so I asked him to describe his listening system as a point of reference. A few others also asked him for details. Jan refused, apparently embarrassed by his own gear choices. This went on for a very long time, with people asking Jan about his gear and Jan refusing. So one day I went to Google Maps and showed a photo of his driveway, hinting that maybe we can peek in the window and see his speakers.

It was meant as a joke to defuse (no surprise) an extremely hostile thread with (no surprise) tons of insults against (no surprise) me. Jan and some others blew it way out of proportion, the proof being they're still talking about it years later.

I bring it up purely because it bothers you to be reminded that you went to the effort to identify someone's house and posted a picture of it on the internet, as though he were some sort of abortion supporter, or something.

All in good fun, though, right?

It's OK, Ethan, Jan once called for my death.

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps, but posting on my own behalf
And always using my real name

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Hmmm, let's pull up Ethan's very first reply after Ted posted his 'data,' shall we?

Yes, but the key difference is I was right, and proved it, ultimately forcing Ted to admit his "error." Versus Frog and SAS who continue to throw stones without one shred of evidence. Can you really not see the difference? In the last two days I have asked SAS at least three times to either prove his claims or shut up. But he keeps accusing me and of course has no proof.

In the bigger picture, the ferociousness of my initial attack on Ted was calculated and deliberate. I wanted to show how absolutely certain I was that Ted's data was fraudulent. I purposely chose words that could be used in a court of law against me, knowing that this would force the issue quickly. And of course I was right.

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps, but posting on my own behalf
And always using my real name

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Hmmm, let's pull up Ethan's very first reply after Ted posted his 'data,' shall we?

Yes, but the key difference is I was right, and proved it, ultimately forcing Ted to admit his "error." Versus Frog and SAS who continue to throw stones without one shred of evidence. Can you really not see the difference? In the last two days I have asked SAS at least three times to either prove his claims or shut up. But he keeps accusing me and of course has no proof.

In the bigger picture, the ferociousness of my initial attack on Ted was calculated and deliberate. I wanted to show how absolutely certain I was that Ted's data was fraudulent. I purposely chose words that could be used in a court of law against me, knowing that this would force the issue quickly. And of course I was right.

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps, but posting on my own behalf
And always using my real name

Ethan you did not then, nor have you ever forced me to do anything. I posted my retraction because after finding the data was corrupted during the measurement process I wanted to set the record straight. This is simply the kind of man I am.

You were most certainly not right. You were WRONG- I did not Photoshop, doctor, hack the file or commit fraud. What I did do was to post waterfall graphs based on data that was corrupted while the measurement was taken.

You have shown and continue to show exactly what kind of man you are.

Ted Denney III
Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc.

Maybe SAS and Michigan are using words that are "calculated and deliberate," as well.

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If people IN the industry have to identify themselves, why not everyone?

Because our assumption is that, unless it is discovered otherwise, ordinary people are disinterested, ie, have no financial stake in the outcome of postings they make. This is not the case with manufacturers or dealers. I decided on this rule after witnessing many instances on other forums of posters - supposedly "civilians" - promoting products in which they had a commercial interest or knocking products from companies that competed with them.

When someone like Ethan persists on publicly criticizing products made by his competitors - and I am not just taking about Synergistic Research, please note - then it is relevant information that he is involved in the same business as those he writes about. Having been fully informed of such information, I assume that readers of this forum can then decide for themselves whether or not Ethan's commercial interest is affecting his opinions.

John Atkinson
Editor. Stereophile

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Hmmm, let's pull up Ethan's very first reply after Ted posted his 'data,' shall we?

Yes, but the key difference is I was right, and proved it, ultimately forcing Ted to admit his "error." Versus Frog and SAS who continue to throw stones without one shred of evidence. Can you really not see the difference? In the last two days I have asked SAS at least three times to either prove his claims or shut up. But he keeps accusing me and of course has no proof.

In the bigger picture, the ferociousness of my initial attack on Ted was calculated and deliberate. I wanted to show how absolutely certain I was that Ted's data was fraudulent. I purposely chose words that could be used in a court of law against me, knowing that this would force the issue quickly. And of course I was right.

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps, but posting on my own behalf
And always using my real name

Ethan you did not then, nor have you ever forced me to do anything. I posted my retraction because after finding the data was corrupted during the measurement process I wanted to set the record straight. This is simply the kind of man I am.

You were most certainly not right. You were WRONG- I did not Photoshop, doctor, hack the file or commit fraud. What I did do was to post waterfall graphs based on data that was corrupted while the measurement was taken.

You have shown and continue to show exactly what kind of man you are.

Ted Denney III
Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc.

A man who showed that you were wrong?
Forced you to do nothing because then you have nothing to show.

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Ethan you did not then, nor have you ever forced me to do anything. I posted my retraction because after finding the data was corrupted during the measurement process I wanted to set the record straight. This is simply the kind of man I am.

You were most certainly not right. You were WRONG- I did not Photoshop, doctor, hack the file or commit fraud. What I did do was to post waterfall graphs based on data that was corrupted while the measurement was taken.

You have shown and continue to show exactly what kind of man you are.

Ted Denney III
Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc.

Well, now that we know it was merely a matter of setting the timing correctly, I bet Ted's already done it!

I mean, bada bing, bada boom, right?

_

Really, none of this relates to Ethan?

Ethan, save that 'as evidence.'

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Well, now that we know it was merely a matter of setting the timing correctly, I bet Ted's already done it!

I mean, bada bing, bada boom, right?

You would think so, wouldn't you? I mean, shit, if it were me, I would have posted a corrected measurement graph ASAP. If nothing else, I would be busy going over my data with a fine tooth comb to ensure that all the i's are dotted and all the t's are crossed to eliminate my exposure to scathing criticism... Then again, that's just me.

Well, that's simply the kind of man you are.

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Maybe SAS and Michigan are using words that are "calculated and deliberate," as well.

Hi Buddha,

Here is a quote from Ethan.

Quote:
In the last two days I have asked SAS at least three times to either prove his claims or shut up.

And three times I have clearly stated in each post that I am giving Ethan a chance to come clean, which Ethan conveniently left out. Hmmmm kinda shows how Ethan manipulates the situation rather than speak the truth.

So Ethan, did you post false and misleading information on AVS forum. All Ethan has done is dodge, stonewall, and sidestep from answering the question 3 times. I am going to give him a 4th so no one can complain afterward.

If Ethan is so innocente, why is he intentionally dodging, evading, and hiding from the question.

Why is he so afraid of the public knowing he is innocent, IF Ethan is.

Buddha, all Ethan has to do is answer YES or NO. NO if he has not posted false and misleading information on AVS forum. So far, he cannot say no.

I am giving Ethan a 4th chance to come clean to the public. Let's see if Ethan can respond with an honest answer this time, or hides and manipulates the situation once again.

Take care.

Exactly, especially when you have people who express themselves very strongly in such a foul manner. I have never seen anyone with as much hate and venom as the frog.

I don't know why you don't like me Ethan? I just wanna be your friend? I even invited you over to my house once (before I learned what a sick puppy you are, that you only agreed to do so, so that you could spy on me!). I noticed that you have this same sort of anger and hatred towards anyone who exposes you as the lying hypocrite that you are. Is that it? Is that the reason for your obsessive hatred of everyone (including JA I might add) who points out that you are either lying, contradicting your own words and deeds, defaming members, falsely accusing members, or making a complete ass of yourself? Or is that all a "coinkidenk"? All I know is that it seems you are getting more and more rabid the closer some of us get to exposing the real truth that you didn't know squat about Ted's graphs in advance, and only guessed that something was amiss, because you wanted to bring your competitor into disrepute.

Speaking of "people who express themselves very strongly in such a foul manner", I've got something to show you, Ethan. I realize you have brought many new sockpuppets into this forum with you, and its easy for people to lose track of what you write, and what your socks write. So could you please tell us if the words below, of someone "expressing themselves very strongly in such a foul manner" were written by you, or one of your many sockpuppets? Because I have never seen anyone here with as much "hate and venom" as the author of these words:

Ethan Whiner wrote:

"You are un-fucking-believable! How dare you?"

"Look asshole, either prove that I was "caught deliberately faking data" or STFU. We're all quite tired of your empty accusations.

Ethan Winer
Proud owner of RealTraps
Not some incompetent manufacturer of bullshit gear whose main sales tactic is insulting real engineers"

(n.b. It's a good thing that sigs don't have to be honest or proven. Because you have proven on Stereophile that you -are- exactly what you accuse others of in your sig! You really are "Some incompetent manufacturer of bullshit gear whose main sales tactic is insulting real engineers"!)

"In the bigger picture, the ferociousness of my initial attack on Ted was calculated and deliberate. I wanted to show how absolutely certain I was that Ted's data was fraudulent. I purposely chose words that could be used in a court of law against me"

Apparently, you admit to having no problem expressing yourself very strongly in such foul manner, defaming your competition without evidence, exposing yourself (and possibly Stereophile) to civil lawsuits, and flaunting the rules and regulations of this board. Anything to say that? Didn't think so. Let's see some more of your hypocrisy!

"Please show us that thread on AVS forum. If you can't, then STFU and apologize to me right now.

Have you no shame at all?"
--Ethan

Yeah, I can see now why you told Stephen you were a "real gentleman"! You must have meant "real hypocrite" or "real liar". Ethan, why do you always have to bring the tone of the discussion down to your level of anger and profanities? It isn't enough that you have been caught lying about an industry member, falsely accusing the man of "fraud" and "falsification"?

No normal non-industry person could have so much hate to write the stuff that frog writes.

Wasn't it you that wrote to KBK "I am honored that your industry pals know me and hate me. I must be doing my job very well."? Sure it was. So it appears the problem is, -everyone- hates you. Industry, non-industry, Repubs, Dems, babies, mothers, Mexicans, Goths, the disenfranchised, the entire classroom, small dogs and laptop PC's. Everyone just hates you, Ethan. The only guys that seem to love you are porn kings. And that might only be because they're counting on you to help them get through the recession.

Let me to try to make you understand this another way. Isn't it uncanny how everyone who is opposed to you using our forum as a bully pulpit to trash and defame your competitors, and indulge in a campaign of spreading lying propaganda against high end audio and audiophiles, to which you have admitted, is an industry member in secret according to you? Of course, according to Occam's Razor, the simplest and most likely explanation is that you are simply a hateful, deceitful, untrustworthy, cheating, defaming, and extremely paranoid nutbag; who is in dire need of counseling. And worse, is that you have even brought a bunch of other hateful nutbags into this forum from one of your audio cult forums, just to help you destroy the reputation of one of our most esteemed industry members, Ted Denney. Seeing that you are so mad and angry that I am not letting you do that, makes me feel like I am on the right track. So thanks for your paranoid rants about me.

Ken Hotte and Jan have the good sense to stay out of this
Even Jan is more civil, and that's saying a lot!

No, Jan is not allowed to say anything about you. That's what's saying a lot. Neither you him, which seems to be another accord you feel free to violate, surprise, surprise. Trust me, if given half a chance, he would push you off the nearest high rise. Ken is the one who informed us that you are the one and only laughingstock at every audio show he attends; with a reputation among industry members as a kind of Homer Simpson of acoustics. As much an "expert" at acoustics as Homer is as a nuclear facility worker, and as much of a crass loud-mouthed, fat, bullying donut-eater I guess. Well anyway, that's what I understood. You seem to forget that Ken is also the one who said this about your self-professed "expertise", to one of your fanboys (Scott), who knows absolutely -nothing- about acoustics and so of course thinks that you're a 'God of acoustics':

KBK (re: Ethan): "To put it bluntly, I could read a textbook on acoustics and do what he is doing- and beyond. So much for his expertise."

KBK (re: Ethan): "I think he fully deserves this shitkicking I'm giving him right now."

For JA to pretend that froggy does not have a vested interest in discrediting me is disingenuous at best.

One might say the same about you and your "vested interest" in discrediting Ted Denney. And their argument would be far more credible if they did. So I'd be more careful about what I said if I were you. But since I'm not you, please continue to flap your mouth as stupidly as you please. I want to be there when you shoot yourself in the foot, to say "Told ya!".

It was meant as a joke to defuse (no surprise) an extremely hostile thread with (no surprise) tons of insults against (no surprise) me. Jan and some others blew it way out of proportion, the proof being they're still talking about it years later.

Well if it's (no surprise) to you that there are "extremely hostile" threads against you, with tons of insults against you, and so many people calling for your head, and so upset by you that they're still talking about your transgressions against them years later, with threads entitled "Questionable Conduct of Ethan Winer".... why do you think that is, Ethan? Are the voices in your head telling you that we are ALL "industry members", is that it?! :lol: Or perhaps could the truth be exactly what Ted Denney summed up about you recently:

Ted (re: Ethan): "You have shown and continue to show exactly what kind of man you are."

Michigan just wants to keep you semantically honest.

You nailed it, Homes. I'm all about the truth, while Ethan is all about the Benjamins. I don't care which side is misrepresenting the truth. Because if they are, I'm there like white on rice. I can smell BS from a mile away, and Ethan? I can smell his from the next county.

If Ethan intends to represent himself as "(Pseudo) Science Man", which btw is the -villain- in this story, then I'm "Truth Dude"; foe of all liars and hypocrites. And that's the reason Ethan doesn't like me very much. He would like to dispense lies and hypocrisy, false accusations and deliberate distortions of fact, hide the truth under the couch for when the guests arrive, attempt to the guests (which as we see from just this new wave of Ethan's trolls joining our forum with the sole intention of fighting the War on Truth with him, works very well around here), then run away from me and duck into the nearest dark corner or niche when I come looking for him to, to expose who and what he really is, the truth behind what he is saying, and make him answer for his deceit. And of course, he would like to ply his lying trade without any interference from Frogs.

Which he has no problem belittling, I might add. And yet at the same time, I'm too important for him to ever ignore! Have you ever realized what a mess of crazy contradictions Ethan really is? This is typical of pathological liars like him. In one post, he says I obviously know nothing about business. In the next, he's insisting (sans proof of course) that I am in the business! From one side of his mouth, he keeps declaring he is ignoring me, about 55,000 times over. That's only because he knows from past experience that if he is ever brave enough to take me on directly, I will kick his ass across three football fields, and it will take him weeks before he even remembers what his name is. Inevitably, after a while, he gets brave enough to take me on again. Actually, "brave" is not the right word here. He just gets "angry" enough, after I leave him more and more vulnerable by exposing the truth behind his motives. And as we see through Ethan Whiner, when you're angry, you tend to do stupid things (although Ethan certainly doesn't have to be angry to do or say stupid things). So that's when Mr. Two-Faced Hypocritical Liar talks from the other side of his mouth, ignores his own "threat" to ignore me, and responds directly. The rest of the time, His Cowardness' way of combatting my exposure of his deceit is to Whine about it to anyone who he thinks will be sympathetic to his Whining pleas: you, JJ, John, etc. Which is exactly what we have seen recently here.

Thus, in order to combat my resolve in exposing his deliberate falsehoods, he writes lies expressly for and about me, hoping people will believe them. ie. I must be a competitor of his, in order to have any motive to expose his pathological lying and hypocrisy, and unprovoked false accusations against our membership. This time, his lies didn't take. But don't worry folks, he's got plenty more where they came from! A one-man Falsehood Factory, he just churns these things out 100 times a minute on an assembly line. Cheap lies, dirty lies, underhanded lies, defaming lies, lies that make your children cry... You name it, this loud-mouthed p****'s got it. Hell, I kid you not, this guy is such an infamous liar, they even wrote a song about him (although it sounds suspiciously like the Armour Hot Dog song):

"Liars
Phony liars!
What kind of liar is Ethan Weiner?
Fat liar
Cursing liar
(Even swears to God)

Sick liar
Angry liar
(Comes with his own "Lying Squad")
He's Weiner
Ethan Weiner
Selling the lies
folks
love
to
buyyyyy! "

I don't know if you're familiar with this one?......

"This liar has a first name
It's E-T-H-A-N
This liar has a second name
It's A-L-I-A-R
He loves to lie in every way
I don't know why, but I would say....
That Ethan Whiner runs away
From everything he comes to say"

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Maybe SAS and Michigan are using words that are "calculated and deliberate," as well.

Hi Buddha,

Here is a quote from Ethan.

Quote:
In the last two days I have asked SAS at least three times to either prove his claims or shut up.

And three times I have clearly stated in each post that I am giving Ethan a chance to come clean, which Ethan conveniently left out. Hmmmm kinda shows how Ethan manipulates the situation rather than speak the truth.

So Ethan, did you post false and misleading information on AVS forum. All Ethan has done is dodge, stonewall, and sidestep from answering the question 3 times. I am going to give him a 4th so no one can complain afterward.

If Ethan is so innocente, why is he intentionally dodging, evading, and hiding from the question.

Why is he so afraid of the public knowing he is innocent, IF Ethan is.

Buddha, all Ethan has to do is answer YES or NO. NO if he has not posted false and misleading information on AVS forum. So far, he cannot say no.

I am giving Ethan a 4th chance to come clean to the public. Let's see if Ethan can respond with an honest answer this time, or hides and manipulates the situation once again.

Take care.

You are as hard to get real facts and links from as Ted is with his little bowls. So again, where is your proof and links showing your accusations against Ethan? I too think you are blowing smoke and so enthralled with trying to make Ethan look bad that it's frankly looking very embarrassing with your obsession here. Either put up or shut up.

I won't even comment on the other post by a certain individual other than to say he has reached a new low in being infantile. If this is an example of the "finest" these froums have to offer then God help you all