Great blog!

If you see JA, could you ask him if he's ever done those sort of speaker measurements with everything staying the same except the amp? How cool would that be?

It would be pretty damn interesting to see if that sort of thing could be 'measured.'

As to the device in question: I wonder if, since there was more bass (among other improvements) with the treated LP if JA's equipment picked that up. I'm he sure he must have been excited enough to measure that!*

*Only mentioned because JA is so keen on insightful measurements. I bet it crossed his mind. More bass should be a great measurable outcome! That would be awesome, 'before and after' measurements! In room!

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Great blog!

Yes it was, especially as Stephen offered excellent insight into the more glamorous aspects of our jobs :-)

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If you see JA, could you ask him if he's ever done those sort of speaker measurements with everything staying the same except the amp? How cool would that be?

The problem is that the spatially averaged room response really does not have enough resolution to uncover sonic differences like the one Stephen described. Because the "contour lines" in the Fletcher-Munson hearing sensitivity graph are very close together in the bass, only a very slight change in bass performance will be audible.

And that's if it was, in fact, due to a frequency-domain change. One of the problems with sonic descriptions is that we all use frequency-domain descriptions even when the change is to a change in distortion, noise floor, or time-domain behavior. "More bass" might result form more bass but it might also result from increased _or_ decreased distortion or slightly less damping at low frequencies.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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And that's if it was, in fact, due to a frequency-domain change. One of the problems with sonic descriptions is that we all use frequency-domain descriptions even when the change is to a change in distortion, noise floor, or time-domain behavior. "More bass" might result form more bass but it might also result from increased _or_ decreased distortion or slightly less damping at low frequencies.

So cool.

Thanks for the answer.

When are you going to start using the Magic Infinite Measuring Machine that will fully explain everything I hear?

We really do just barely get a glimpse of the horizon sometimes.

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It was the first day of spring, and snow was falling like mad ... Taylor ham, egg and cheese on a roll. Coffee, regular ... the cloudy skies clear to reveal a pure, icy blue.

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There is a difference and it is obvious and it is immediate.

Surely this must be attributed to the Vernal Equinox, the alignment of the planets, stars and moon, the changing barometric pressure and the effects of digestion combined with the rush of caffiene! It was a gas bubble!!!

I bet the Furutech deMag makes one mean waffle:

And probably removes the cholesterol from the butter as well!

However, if cooking is not your thing, it would also make a great prop for a low budget (well not that low budget since $2k certainly ain't all that cheap) sci-fi film.

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Great blog!

Yes it was, especially as Stephen offered excellent insight into the more glamorous aspects of our jobs :-)

It would have been a perfect post if MF weren't so busy demagnetizing his records and took a picture of SM & JA's excursion to Hernia City.

Awwww. He had the Pure Vinyl setup there, didn't he? I would have loved to hear before/after needledrops of the LP with the Furutech applied.

Yeah, I know about the whole vinyl-needs-time-to-relax thing - and unlike most pro-DBT people I agree it is a potential issue with this comparison! - but I believe that, and all other relevant sources of error, can be satisfactorily controlled.

C'mon Mikey. You know you wanna.

Well Pure Vinyl setup is still here but now with a Pure Vinyl non RIAA preamp specifically designed for the program. However, I'm not sure why that's necessary to hear before and after. I have a CD-R of Tom Waits' song "Step Right Up" recorded first "straight" and then de-magnetized. The difference is profound. It sounds completely different after de-mag. Every skeptic who's sat down and listened to a 'before and after' agrees IT WORKS. I wish I could post the song on my .mac public site, but it's no legal so I can't do it....maybe I could do it with one of Stereophile's piano LPs!

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I'm not sure why that's necessary to hear before and after. I have a CD-R of Tom Waits' song "Step Right Up" recorded first "straight" and then de-magnetized. The difference is profound. It sounds completely different after de-mag. Every skeptic who's sat down and listened to a 'before and after' agrees IT WORKS. I wish I could post the song on my .mac public site, but it's no legal so I can't do it....maybe I could do it with one of Stereophile's piano LPs!

Michael-

I'd love to hear like maybe a 2 minute spinet of a "before and after" maybe JA could talk to the artists that performed on one of the previously mentioned Stereophile LPs into allowing a small section of their work to be used for the comparison.

As a bonus it would allow many of us to get a glimpse, no matter how brief of how truly great your new 'table is.

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I'm not sure why that's necessary to hear before and after. I have a CD-R of Tom Waits' song "Step Right Up" recorded first "straight" and then de-magnetized. The difference is profound. It sounds completely different after de-mag. Every skeptic who's sat down and listened to a 'before and after' agrees IT WORKS. I wish I could post the song on my .mac public site, but it's no legal so I can't do it....maybe I could do it with one of Stereophile's piano LPs!

Michael-

I'd love to hear like maybe a 2 minute spinet of a "before and after" maybe JA could talk to the artists that performed on one of the previously mentioned Stereophile LPs into allowing a small section of their work to be used for the comparison.

As a bonus it would allow many of us to get a glimpse, no matter how brief of how truly great your new 'table is.

There is some music issued with Creative Commons licenses that generally allows you to use it for non-commercial purposes. Even though we're sort of testing a product, it is really for educational/study purposes (which would arguably be fair use with a normal copyright), and we (as in forum individuals) are not associated with the company. It'd be fine for one of us to do an audio comparison. The problem is most creative commons music isn't on vinyl. The only exception I can think of is Nine Inch Nails' recent albums (The Slip and Ghosts) and...that probably isn't the most conducive subject for something like this. "Ghosts" might not be bad, though. I have it if someone wants to borrow it or come over with a demag.

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Well Pure Vinyl setup is still here but now with a Pure Vinyl non RIAA preamp specifically designed for the program. However, I'm not sure why that's necessary to hear before and after. I have a CD-R of Tom Waits' song "Step Right Up" recorded first "straight" and then de-magnetized. The difference is profound. It sounds completely different after de-mag. Every skeptic who's sat down and listened to a 'before and after' agrees IT WORKS.

So, I'll be straight with you - I want the samples to run a computer-assisted blind test. Even if I did sit down in your house and listen (and I have no doubts that it would be an incredible experience!), I am simply not likely to trust my own ears on this through a sighted comparison. So how can I trust others'? I have no intention of turning this into a larger ABX fight, so I'll give you the last word on that matter if you want.

I would like to say, though, that if you do post samples, the worst that can happen is that the naysayers will happily continue their sayings of nay, and you and Stereophile may happily continue to ignore them <grin> And the best that can happen is that a real difference is confirmed.

Honestly I kinda want a difference to be seen here. A lot of people are dismissing the Furutech (and the notion of vinyl magnetism) out of hand, and making grave allegations of woo. But I've seen enough literature, and a couple patents, to believe that ferromagnetic particles could find their way into carbon black (and vinyl) in *possibly* significant amounts. That said, that (and Furutech's own documentation) is not exactly a smoking gun.

I tried measuring this a while ago by taking the stylus off a Stanton 500 and trying to use it as a pickup for the magnetic field of a record, and was utterly unsuccessful. The static magnetic field of the motor wound up being far higher in magnitude, so that if one did not align the pickup exactly when the vinyl was on/off the platter, an errenously large difference would be read.

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I wish I could post the song on my .mac public site, but it's no legal so I can't do it....maybe I could do it with one of Stereophile's piano LPs!

IANAL, but all the literature I have seen on the subject suggests that such an upload would be legal. Fair use is generally believed to cover music samples up to 30 seconds/10% long for this sort of application, and several groups recommend or practice that level of sampling for research/educational purposes (which this would certainly qualify as). And I strongly suspect that even a 10 second clip, properly chosen, would quite adequately express the sound quality difference.

That said, again IANAL, and I'm guessing you guys have a well-defined corporate policy on this that must be followed (Stephen mentioned that exact same opinion as you did about sample posting).

Do you have any good-playing UK records (of UK artists) made before 1959? I'm pretty sure those are public domain. UK copyright terms for music are for 50 years after publication.

I've always found that short samples don't allow enough time to "settle in" to compare, which is why I mentioned 2 minutes. Longer would be ideal but then one might run into copyright issues.

Yeah, 10 seconds is the bare minimum.

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As a bonus it would allow many of us to get a glimpse, no matter how brief of how truly great your new 'table is.

Here here! In this time of economic uncertainty,
Let us now put symbols of excess on a pedestal. Amen.

seriously though,
it probably looks just like the one on the web.

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Yeah, 10 seconds is the bare minimum.

Why do we need more than ten seconds? According to Mike above, "The difference is profound. It sounds completely different after de-mag." So I'd expect the difference to be immediately obvious to this skeptic, whether the fragment is 1 second or 1 hour. Nor is a blind needed for a "profound" difference. So go ahead and post some samples for all of us to hear. And please, no back-pedaling now on the definition of "profound," okay?

--Ethan

Now, now, Ethan. No need to stuff words in Mikey's mouth. (Everybody here can agree that he is perfectly capable of doing that himself. <zing>)

IME there is an acclimitization period to rapid A/B switching (blind or not) when my auditory system needs to be primed. I've lost a lot of sensitivity by using sample lengths that are too small. Ergo, 10 seconds. I'm gracious enough to assume that Stephen's pronouncements of "zomg night and day" differences are to some degree hyperbole, and might show up in a 10 second sample even if not in 1 second.

We're not actually going to settle any of these issues here! So this isn't worth making some kind of stand. If I had samples, I'll do my best not to run off and claim acceptance of a null hypothesis if I fail out.

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And please, no back-pedaling now on the definition of "profound," okay?

Good Grief! If you're so dead set on a test, why not complete the test on the "de-mag" thread? It's there and waiting for you. Yes, it's difficult to download the files as FC has so graciously arranged them but I managed as did Frog. The difference there requires but a few seconds of your precious time to discern.

There's your test ready and waiting for you, finish it before you insist on having another sampling.

Now, please, no back pedaling on this issue.

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Well Pure Vinyl setup is still here but now with a Pure Vinyl non RIAA preamp specifically designed for the program. However, I'm not sure why that's necessary to hear before and after. I have a CD-R of Tom Waits' song "Step Right Up" recorded first "straight" and then de-magnetized. The difference is profound. It sounds completely different after de-mag. Every skeptic who's sat down and listened to a 'before and after' agrees IT WORKS. I wish I could post the song on my .mac public site, but it's no legal so I can't do it....maybe I could do it with one of Stereophile's piano LPs!

You know, you and other editors of Stereophile have always rallied against A/B switches at the dealerships because you felt that those switches introduced substantial distortions and colorations or even their own voicing to skew the A/B comparisons.

However, you take a vinyl recording, send it through a phono preamp, a regular preamp, an A/D converter, through a series of interconnects to a CD recorder. Then, you playback the CD on a totally different CD player, through a different DAC, sending it once again to a preamp, an amp and speakers, a set of interconnects and speaker cables and you expect this to be an accurate or even a semi-accurate comparison as to whether a demagnetizer of a plastic works? There are so many holes in that methodology, I don't even know where to begin.

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Now, now, Ethan. No need to stuff words in Mikey's mouth. (Everybody here can agree that he is perfectly capable of doing that himself. <zing>)

I did nothing of the sort - the words I put in quotes were taken directly from Mike's post above! To me, a "profound difference" means even I can hear it.

--Ethan

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Good Grief! If you're so dead set on a test, why not complete the test on the "de-mag" thread? It's there and waiting for you. Yes, it's difficult to download the files as FC has so graciously arranged them but I managed as did Frog. The difference there requires but a few seconds of your precious time to discern.

There's your test ready and waiting for you, finish it before you insist on having another sampling.

Now, please, no back pedaling on this issue.

LOLWUT? An 800-page thread with useful information, and where somebody really did SNED WAVs?

That said, I'd still be tickled to get another sample point.

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And please, no back-pedaling now on the definition of "profound," okay?

Good Grief! If you're so dead set on a test, why not complete the test on the "de-mag" thread? It's there and waiting for you. Yes, it's difficult to download the files as FC has so graciously arranged them but I managed as did Frog. The difference there requires but a few seconds of your precious time to discern.

There's your test ready and waiting for you, finish it before you insist on having another sampling.

Now, please, no back pedaling on this issue.

LIEZ. FC's samples are from CD, not vinyl. Completely meaningless and incomparable to a vinyl conversation, as the distortion modes involving demagnetization have nothing in common.

That leaves us without any digital samples of vinyl demagnitization. Still waiting on those samples, Mikey! <g>

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Well Pure Vinyl setup is still here but now with a Pure Vinyl non RIAA preamp specifically designed for the program. However, I'm not sure why that's necessary to hear before and after. I have a CD-R of Tom Waits' song "Step Right Up" recorded first "straight" and then de-magnetized. The difference is profound. It sounds completely different after de-mag. Every skeptic who's sat down and listened to a 'before and after' agrees IT WORKS. I wish I could post the song on my .mac public site, but it's no legal so I can't do it....maybe I could do it with one of Stereophile's piano LPs!

You know, you and other editors of Stereophile have always rallied against A/B switches at the dealerships because you felt that those switches introduced substantial distortions and colorations or even their own voicing to skew the A/B comparisons.

However, you take a vinyl recording, send it through a phono preamp, a regular preamp, an A/D converter, through a series of interconnects to a CD recorder. Then, you playback the CD on a totally different CD player, through a different DAC, sending it once again to a preamp, an amp and speakers, a set of interconnects and speaker cables and you expect this to be an accurate or even a semi-accurate comparison as to whether a demagnetizer of a plastic works? There are so many holes in that methodology, I don't even know where to begin.

Jesus this is stupid post I don't even know where to begin. By your standards, no recording can be used to judge anything. Here's how the recordings were made: turntable/cartridge to phono preamp. Phono preamp directly out (Steelhead has volume control) into Mastelink A/D converter.

NOW THIS CHAIN WAS CONSTANT BOTH TIMES. THE ONLY VARIABLE WAS THE DEMAGNETIZER. IT'S EASY TO HEAR THE DIFFERENCE ON ANY CD PLAYER. I'VE PROVEN THAT ALL OVER THE WORLD. A/B SWITCHES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS...

[

So, I'll be straight with you - I want the samples to run a computer-assisted blind test. Even if I did sit down in your house and listen (and I have no doubts that it would be an incredible experience!), I am simply not likely to trust my own ears on this through a sighted comparison. So how can I trust others'? I have no intention of turning this into a larger ABX fight, so I'll give you the last word on that matter if you want.

I would like to say, though, that if you do post samples, the worst that can happen is that the naysayers will happily continue their sayings of nay, and you and Stereophile may happily continue to ignore them <grin> And the best that can happen is that a real difference is confirmed.

Honestly I kinda want a difference to be seen here. A lot of people are dismissing the Furutech (and the notion of vinyl magnetism) out of hand, and making grave allegations of woo. But I've seen enough literature, and a couple patents, to believe that ferromagnetic particles could find their way into carbon black (and vinyl) in *possibly* significant amounts. That said, that (and Furutech's own documentation) is not exactly a smoking gun.

I tried measuring this a while ago by taking the stylus off a Stanton 500 and trying to use it as a pickup for the magnetic field of a record, and was utterly unsuccessful. The static magnetic field of the motor wound up being far higher in magnitude, so that if one did not align the pickup exactly when the vinyl was on/off the platter, an errenously large difference would be read.

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I wish I could post the song on my .mac public site, but it's no legal so I can't do it....maybe I could do it with one of Stereophile's piano LPs!

IANAL, but all the literature I have seen on the subject suggests that such an upload would be legal. Fair use is generally believed to cover music samples up to 30 seconds/10% long for this sort of application, and several groups recommend or practice that level of sampling for research/educational purposes (which this would certainly qualify as). And I strongly suspect that even a 10 second clip, properly chosen, would quite adequately express the sound quality difference.

That said, again IANAL, and I'm guessing you guys have a well-defined corporate policy on this that must be followed (Stephen mentioned that exact same opinion as you did about sample posting).

Do you have any good-playing UK records (of UK artists) made before 1959? I'm pretty sure those are public domain. UK copyright terms for music are for 50 years after publication.

Why is it a "sighted test?" I put the CD into the player and say nothing. I play the two tracks not identifying which is which. But more importantly, why don't you trust your ears???????

I trusted mine when I heard what the Furutech did, despite my utter cynicism about it (which is why it sat on the floor for 3 months before I tried it).

What I heard was so obvious, so repeatable, so clear, it was like "is that the Empire State Building?" Not "I'd better do an A/B/X to prove it really is the Empire State Building" (I know that analogy is not valid). The point is, not one skeptic---and I'm talking recording engineers, mastering engineers whose names you know, and the editor of the magazine have all heard the difference....the only reason. The only reason you wrote what's above is because you haven't experienced it. Because had you, even if you don't trust your own ears (or your own eyes I guess), this is an easily heard, easily repeatable phenomenon. It's a HUGH difference. You don't want to believe it is so you're backing off into A/B/X land. This is not like that.

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Yeah, 10 seconds is the bare minimum.

Why do we need more than ten seconds? According to Mike above, "The difference is profound. It sounds completely different after de-mag." So I'd expect the difference to be immediately obvious to this skeptic, whether the fragment is 1 second or 1 hour. Nor is a blind needed for a "profound" difference. So go ahead and post some samples for all of us to hear. And please, no back-pedaling now on the definition of "profound," okay?

--Ethan

I have a better idea! I will send the CD-R to Ethan and let him describe what he hears or doesn't hear to the rest of you. Then we he says what I'm sure he's going to say, he will experience the utter frustration I go through with every post here....so Ethan, why don't you email me via my website www.musicangle.com and give me your address. I will send you a CD-R with both copies. Now if anyone here starts up with "well maybe you doctored it" and that kind of crap....I'll find out where you live! (just kidding)....

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Ethan, why don't you email me via my website www.musicangle.com and give me your address. I will send you a CD-R with both copies.

Done, and really looking forward to it!

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"well maybe you doctored it"

I can't imagine why would you do that.

--Ethan

Also, Mike, I have a serious question. Please don't take this the wrong way! And if you'd rather reply by email privately I'll understand:

Did you actually buy the Furutech demagnetizer (even if at a discount), or was it given to you for no cost at all? I'm in the biz too and I understand there are varying arrangements. But knowing if you paid even a discounted price is useful information for me. Thanks.

--Ethan

If the samples null, there is no way any audible difference could be there.

Id love to have a couple samples to put in Diffmaker and Sequoia

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The point is, not one skeptic---and I'm talking recording engineers, mastering engineers whose names you know, and the editor of the magazine have all heard the difference....the only reason. The only reason you wrote what's above is because you haven't experienced it. Because had you, even if you don't trust your own ears (or your own eyes I guess), this is an easily heard, easily repeatable phenomenon. It's a HUGH difference. You don't want to believe it is so you're backing off into A/B/X land. This is not like that.

Sorry, I think I may have been a little confused when I initially replied to you - it seemed as if you were questioning why I wanted before/after samples in the first place, but rereading your posts again says something completely different.

I only mentioned ABX because it seemed like I should make my intentions clear, but looking back I'm not even sure that was necessary. I didn't intend to get into an argument over this sort of thing. I just wanted to politely ask for the damn samples <grin>

I only mentioned PV because I wasn't sure if your usual needledropping hardware (a Masterlink I understand?) was hooked up, and PV requires needledropping so it might be the easiest way to get the samples, etc. And I didn't know how many LPs you've needledropped. If you've got CD-Rs, well, awesome.

Anyways, assuming you weren't facetious, I'll submit my contact info to musicangle.com if you don't mind, because I would really be interested in those CD-Rs too.

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Also, Mike, I have a serious question. Please don't take this the wrong way! And if you'd rather reply by email privately I'll understand:

Did you actually buy the Furutech demagnetizer (even if at a discount), or was it given to you for no cost at all? I'm in the biz too and I understand there are varying arrangements. But knowing if you paid even a discounted price is useful information for me. Thanks.

Jesus, man. "Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you biased?"

Heh.

FWIW I've heard of people enjoying the results out of $20 degaussers applied to this purpose.

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If the samples null, there is no way any audible difference could be there.

Agreed, but it's really doubtful two samples recorded off an LP could possibly null. The "jitter" in even the best turntable is probably 10,000 times greater than even a cheap motherboard sound card. So there will be both fast and slow (wow) timing variations. But hey, if Mikey says the differences are "profound" then for now let's take him at his word. In that case a null test is not needed, nor is a side by side A/B comparison, let alone a blind test.

--Ethan

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If the samples null, there is no way any audible difference could be there.

Id love to have a couple samples to put in Diffmaker and Sequoia

Not possible. Vinyl playback timing is slightly different on every play, due to all sorts of low-level effects on the rotational speed and tonearm motion; even when absolutely no change existed on the record, the samples will never completely null.

Those are the breaks you deal with when critically listening to vinyl. To a large degree, though, those issues should not be audible.

then what use is sending a CDR??

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then what use is sending a CDR??

So Ethan and others can hear the profound difference after "demagnetizing" an LP record. Don't forget, people like me are both deaf and unreasonable. Since I cannot see a mechanism by which the sound of vinyl could be changed by a magnet, in my mind no change is possible. If you think about it, Mikey is being mighty generous going to the trouble to let me hear this!

--Ethan

Let's reserve judgment until we hear the samples. I'm not even going to touch the methodology by which those samples have been created. I'll let it go for now until we hear the profound difference, which can't be measured.

That first quote sure sounds like Robert B. Parker...did you get that one from a Spenser novel (he ALWAYS fusses about whether the coffee is regular or decaf...lol).

Gee, maybe I should try my old tape head demagnetizer on a few LPs....

Yes, putting out the money is a true test of confidence, isn't it?

I suspect that most reviewers have at least $10,000 worth of assorted cables sitting around, all of which were free samples. I really doubt that any reviewer REALLY believes in the superiority of the $3000 cable from XYZ Cable Company to the extent that he actually lays out his cash for it....

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Also, Mike, I have a serious question. Please don't take this the wrong way! And if you'd rather reply by email privately I'll understand:

Did you actually buy the Furutech demagnetizer (even if at a discount), or was it given to you for no cost at all? I'm in the biz too and I understand there are varying arrangements. But knowing if you paid even a discounted price is useful information for me. Thanks.

--Ethan

I have purchased all of the equipment in my system with the exception of cables and a few of the cartridge. I have purchased the accessories as well, including the Harmonic Resolution Systems and Finite Pagode stands (expensive!), which shouldn't be considered accessories, really...

Thanks very much for your honest reply Mike!

Thinking further about this, I'd love to visit you and hear some of this stuff. I assume you're close enough to me, in NY or NJ? If you're willing to share an hour or two some weekend, I'd love to meet you in person. Even better, I'd really like to borrow some of the things I consider "magic" to test in my own studio. Whatever you'd agree to would be most appreciated.

--Ethan

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Let's reserve judgment until we hear the samples. I'm not even going to touch the methodology by which those samples have been created. I'll let it go for now until we hear the profound difference, which can't be measured.

You wouldn't "touch" the methodology? You mean carefully repeating a procedure with the only variable being the demag treatment? I wouldn't touch your criticism because aside from throwing some inane sarcasm, you haven't made a valid criticism.

That's "big" of you to reserve judgment until you actually hear something....you're a laugh riot Alice. And of course you've already decided that the differences can't be measured. I'm just curious, do you consider yourself a 'scientific type?' If so, you're deluding yourself. Newton discovered his law by observing, not making A/B/X tests. First observe. Then use science to discover. You think it's some kind of generous 'concession' on your part to reserve judgment on an observed audio phenomenon until you hear it? That's hilarious.

You are not far away. So perhaps we can arrange for you to hear a live demo of the Furutech and then you can report what you hear---that is if you actually trust your ears. I trust mine based on decades of experience....

Oh, geeeeez!

" The Frog vs. The Chicken" Tweaks'n'Tips Michigan J Frog 07/16/08 05:28 PM

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...=true#Post44645

Jan, don't start. You were doing good for a while. don't start being an ass again.

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Oh, geeeeez!

" The Frog vs. The Chicken" Tweaks'n'Tips Michigan J Frog 07/16/08 05:28 PM

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...=true#Post44645

I happen to think Nathan is being sincerely inquisitive.

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Thanks very much for your honest reply Mike!

Thinking further about this, I'd love to visit you and hear some of this stuff. I assume you're close enough to me, in NY or NJ? If you're willing to share an hour or two some weekend, I'd love to meet you in person. Even better, I'd really like to borrow some of the things I consider "magic" to test in my own studio. Whatever you'd agree to would be most appreciated.

--Ethan

Please, Ethan, no. There's already been enough bloodshed upstate for one week.

POW!

I'll be here all night. Aren't the servers wonderful! Please tip them well.

ncdrawl, you are a humorless SOB.

I bet you haven't even read that thread.

I think this would make a great JREF topic .

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Let's reserve judgment until we hear the samples. I'm not even going to touch the methodology by which those samples have been created. I'll let it go for now until we hear the profound difference, which can't be measured.

You wouldn't "touch" the methodology? You mean carefully repeating a procedure with the only variable being the demag treatment? I wouldn't touch your criticism because aside from throwing some inane sarcasm, you haven't made a valid criticism.

That's "big" of you to reserve judgment until you actually hear something....you're a laugh riot Alice. And of course you've already decided that the differences can't be measured. I'm just curious, do you consider yourself a 'scientific type?' If so, you're deluding yourself. Newton discovered his law by observing, not making A/B/X tests. First observe. Then use science to discover. You think it's some kind of generous 'concession' on your part to reserve judgment on an observed audio phenomenon until you hear it? That's hilarious.

I'm not going to be baited. I'm going to simply sit here quietly, making my magic potion. Ok... spider legs - check, goat eyes - check, chicken heart - check, demagnetizer... where did I put that demagnetizer??...

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[q Newton discovered his law by observing, not making A/B/X tests.

He was also an alchemist who burnt down his own laboratory.