Exactly why I stopped posting, and rarely visit anymore.

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Hi Is it my imagination or has the amount of posting on real hifi topics and/or music dried up ?

It ain't your imagination. I think the problem lies with our moderator. He's taken on far too much. I can't see how any single person can possibly moderate a place like this 24/7 on their own. That, and the fact that topics that start off as audio discussions and soon wonder off into theology,politics or whatever aren't moved to the 'Open Bar' section fast enough can turn first time visitors off posting. It's a thankless task being a moderator and I'm grateful for whatever moderation is undertaken here but know, from having been a moderator myself on a number of audio and other forums, no single person can do it effectively on their own. However, I suspect there are politics at work behind the scenes at Stereophile that have triggered this situation. Politics we'll never get to the bottom of. Just a guess. Any other theories?

another theory about the moderator is that perhaps, he simply expects us to act like grown ups.

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another theory about the moderator is that perhaps, he simply expects us to act like grown ups.

Well then, should we admire his optimism or have doubts about those rosy glasses he's wearing? There is an unbroken history, since the early day of the web, of forums and newsgroups such as this descending into pointless, aggressive, off topic raves without strict moderation. Why would anyone expect this particular forum to break that rule and why was the 'Open Bar' set up in the first place?
At the risk of repeating myself, moderation of a public forum such as this is far too much of a burden for one person 24/7. No, I'm not volunteering to be a mod. I've spent too much time over the years on that thankless task myself. I'm eternally grateful to S M for the work he puts into this place but I'll say it again - the job is too much for any single person.

You obviously weren't around this forum in the days of "The Little Black Kid" joke.

This forum has been like this for years. The only difference is, when you hang out a sign that welcomes a certain type of behavior, you'll get more and more of the people who want to engage in that sort of behavior. A drunk doesn't go into a bar thinking there's anything but more to drink in there.

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another theory about the moderator is that perhaps, he simply expects us to act like grown ups.

Exactly. Thanks Tom. And I feel the forum works better when the members are allowed to work things out for themselves.

For the last several weeks, I've been keeping an eye on the average daily number of posts, and we have often been well over 100. Which is very healthy for us, and, while many of the posts have been made in the Open Bar, we still generate lots of great audio discussions, I think.

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There is an unbroken history, since the early day of the web, of forums and newsgroups such as this descending into pointless, aggressive, off topic raves without strict moderation. Why would anyone expect this particular forum to break that rule and why was the 'Open Bar' set up in the first place?

1. Because we're supposed to be intelligent adults, duh.

2. Because we were often asked to create a section dedicated to general discussion not related to audio.

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There is an unbroken history, since the early day of the web, of forums and newsgroups such as this descending into pointless, aggressive, off topic raves without strict moderation. Why would anyone expect this particular forum to break that rule and why was the 'Open Bar' set up in the first place?

1. Because we're supposed to be intelligent adults, duh.

2. Because we were often asked to create a section dedicated to general discussion not related to audio.

I actually like the debates in the forums. Yes the audiophiles here are passionate but passionate people make for good reading.

Yes- you're right. I used to really look forward to posting, getting involved, helping out etc. Not so much for the past couple of months. Ironically when DUP was around there was a concentrated aspect of BS, but now some how it's taken on a more diffuse and darker tone.

I think the Open Bar is a complete failure and Rants and Raves should just be called General Audio. Then any topic that veers off radically to the Right or Left and just angry and stupid should get nixed early on. I only have so much time and energy, and it takes energy to mentally push aside a bunch of negativity.

If people want to vent politics, religion, or repressed anger there's a few million blogs out there to do it. There's just no point for it on a music and audio site. And even if the topic IS audio and posters need to get constantly outraged and vicious then they can go too.

The Forum won't last in any constructive form if it isn't managed. It's why we have cops out there- half of why we have bar tenders. Throw the trouble makers out with no apologies.

Nothing personal Jan (since I only know you as an online persona), but you are probably up there in the top five most angry, fight prone posters. I've come to realize that when DUP went you should have too. You go out of your way to be offended, and often attack first time posters when you suspect their "motives" for posting.

Stephen- I love your blog, and respect your approach to the Forum, but our whole world "expects" people to act as adults. But until that happens, the ones that keep acting like children need some rules- and if that's not good enough, some consequences.

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Yes- you're right. I used to really look forward to posting, getting involved, helping out etc. Not so much for the past couple of months. Ironically when DUP was around there was a concentrated aspect of BS, but now some how it's taken on a more diffuse and darker tone.

I think the Open Bar is a complete failure and Rants and Raves should just be called General Audio. Then any topic that veers off radically to the Right or Left and just angry and stupid should get nixed early on. I only have so much time and energy, and it takes energy to mentally push aside a bunch of negativity.

If people want to vent politics, religion, or repressed anger there's a few million blogs out there to do it. There's just no point for it on a music and audio site. And even if the topic IS audio and posters need to get constantly outraged and vicious then they can go too.

The Forum won't last in any constructive form if it isn't managed. It's why we have cops out there- half of why we have bar tenders. Throw the trouble makers out with no apologies.

And I think you want to bring back the sedition act of 1918 as well. Everybody knows you're Obama. Your anonymity is safe with us here.

I think that the MAJOR problem is that people take differences of opinion with another poster personally and then that spills out into other threads. Then we see skirmishes elsewhere in the forum between those two individuals that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the original thread and/or little to do with the thread that is hosting the new skirmish. They start "hunting" that person and seize on any opportunity to attack.

It seems obvious but just because I disagree with someone about one area DOES NOT invalidate their knowledge on another subject. For example, ncdrawl somewhat advocates inexpensive direct drive turntables while I, on the other hand believe their performance is severely compromised. However, this doesn't impact the fact that I'm sure that he knows more about mic placement and recording techniques. I haven't taken to stalking him around the forum looking for opportunities to "slam" him. While he engages in spirited debate I really haven't seen him engage in name calling.

While I wouldn't want to see the occasional heated remarks of a normally polite, rational, and even-tempered regular being censored people who regularly engage in name calling, be-belittling, and general insulting should be on a much tighter leash. Who should be on those leashes? That's not my call but I do think that a trip to the pet store is in order.

In general I am a defender of the magazine, and of JA and SM in particular because from all available evidence they are fair and honest people. So I hope that my position is taken as constructive criticism given in an effort to improve the forum. The magazine is near perfect, the forum could use a little tweaking. Maybe some better power cords on the servers would help. Sorry I couldn't resist a poke at myself.

"And I think you want to bring back the sedition act of 1918 as well. Everybody knows you're Obama. Your anonymity is safe with us here. "

You got me- but did you realize I was Michelle?

Well I don't care what anybody says I think you look marvelous!

Honestly, I think that posts just go up and down in cycles. I for one haven't posted in a few weeks, not because of any issues with any other poster, but just because my real, non-audio life took over in a big way.

meh, who cares that personalities flare up.

makes it more interesting. if you have posters that do nothing BUT attack and bash, yeah..that is an issue..but let boys be boys, hell. this aint church ffs.

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Nothing personal Jan (since I only know you as an online persona), but you are probably up there in the top five most angry, fight prone posters. I've come to realize that when DUP went you should have too. You go out of your way to be offended, and often attack first time posters when you suspect their "motives" for posting.

No, sure, why would I take that as "personal"?

"You go out of your way to be offended ... "

See, now I would say that's totally ass-backwards. Quite often I've stated my opinion and if it disagrees with what someone wants to see, then I'm supposedly the cause of a riff that they start. You and I have had several of those encounters, so why would I take your post as "personal"?

Like I've said before, you shouldn't ask questions if you don't want to hear the answers you're likely to get. That's the idea of a discussion forum, to voice different opinions. Acting like an adult means sometimes taking criticism like an adult.

Why don't you consider this; for all the people on the Stereophile forum, a subjective review magazine's forum, for all those who want to shout down everything related to subjective listening or alternative treatments of any variety from cables to leveling CD players to ART bowls - all the Winers and Fresh Clips and everyone who has wandered across this forum over the last few years including dup - who is it that is always here to say, "Wait a minute, this is the Stereophile forum you know. Stereophile is a subjective review magazine. Why are you even here if all you want to do is tell me I'm stupid for believing the same things Stereophile stands for?"

I've said repeatedly I don't care whether anyone else believes a power line conditioner or a smear of creme on the label side of a CD makes a qualitative improvement. I'll make my own decisons about such things and not insist everyone else buckles under and only does as I say. But in case you hadn't noticed there are some highly partisan folks around these parts who aren't going to take another opinion without a shouting match breaking out. If you're going to insist I can only hear what you cannot hear and think what you cannot conceive, you better believe I'm going to put up a fight against that. If I didn't want to state my opinions about such things, I wouldn't be on this forum. Now you can decide who is responsible for what occurs on this forum but it takes at least two people to tangle - and on this forum quite often it's one against many.

If you go back and actually read my posts I don't think you'll find anyone here who has so often called for civility on this forum and I don't go out looking for arguments. But if someone comes looking for a fight - and you know just as well as I do that they do because they continually restart the same sort of thread over and over and over, I'm not the type to back down when I see what I believe as right being called stupidity or "charlatans at the gate" or frauds or any of the other bullshit insults one side of this forum continually hurls at the other side. If you don't expect that on a forum like this, where the moderators have a laissez-faire attitude that allows virtually anything to be said, then you haven't been paying attention to this forum.

I've been challenged to a bar fight on this forum simply because dup didn't know when to shut up and got his second ban and the moderators did nothing to stop that thread. After dup's second ban a group of four decided what dup did to get himself banned was somehow my fault and they thought it would be great fun to gang up on me and insult me after every post I made. That escalated into the challenge to a bar fight. No one said a word to stop them.

No one.

No one said a word to stop them.

How would you react if that had happened to you?

I get along on this forum when people get along with me. I've proven that on this forum time and time again. Just today I posted several responses to ncdrawl, most were friendly and one was not. The one that was not had been preceded by a ncdrawl post that wasn't friendly to me. You insult me, you might as well expect the same to come back at you.

I don't hold grudges from thread to thread but a lot of people here certainly do. At times I may be blunt because that's how I see the situation but sometimes that's what needs to be said IMO. More than once someone has said I can see the big picture that others miss. Maybe so, maybe not. Too often people don't want to be called on their actions even when they realize what they've done. And sometimes people just need to pull their panties out of their crack and grow up and sometimes that's what I'm going to tell them. If this were an actual discussion forum, then I wouldn't need to do that. But it's not and until the tenor of this forum changes, this is what you guys have settled for. I've got one member who spent days calling me names just because I disagree about how an amplifier line sounds.

How would you react if that had happened to you?

This is just hifi we're talkin' about here, guys!

For a certain group on this forum nothing is going to change, they don't want it to change, they've stated they want their own forum within this one. They want to continually start threads that are intended to get the same results over and over. They want to be able to insult anyone they please at will with no reciprocal action by anyone they care to see and without repercussions from the moderators.

What finally got dup banned?

If that's what you guys settle for, then that's what you're going to get from now on.

The forum has rules - few and far between but it has rules, and not always dealt with evenhandedly I would say but it has rules. One member gets banned for one action while another member gets by with the exact same action several times without any apparent response from the moderators. I've had at least one member do a Google search of my personal information and post it here on this forum. I've had one member post insulting things about me that were obviously false. I've had one member look into my yard with GoogleEarth because he thinks that's funny and then complain he couldn't see inside my house. All that just because I disagree with his opinions about hifi. I've had people insult me on threads I wasn't even involved with - just because they know they can get away with it on this forum. I've had one member constantly post personal information regarding my past history - for what reason I don't know.

How would you react if that had happened to you? All because you disagreed with someone about hifi!

Do you think I'm dealing with adults here?

So, yeah, I can be a little testy at times.

And you know what?

It ain't getting any better from where I sit.

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Nothing personal Jan (since I only know you as an online persona), but you are probably up there in the top five most angry, fight prone posters.

Bingo! I completely agree, no point in posting when J.V. simply replies with ROTFLMAO and throws personal insults anybodys way that disagrees with him.

ROTFLMAO!

I'll tell you what is funny. I'm a conservative with a BA in liberal arts. It was my first degree and had no value in the job market during that period in my life. But the curriculum does stress one important thing and that is its foundation is based on critical thinking. What I learned is that conflict creates creativity. I see a lot of that on these forums as petty as they may appear. One post someone is insulting someone else and later down the road they are trading funny barbs. The common denominator is that we like audio. After that we could care less what the other person really thinks and to let someone get away with a pompous comment would be an insult to our collective intelligence. JoeE excluded of course. So, lighten up Francis. You know who you are. We are not the Hell's Angels wearing Stereophile colors and patches. Death rides a pale amp and all that shit. In fact, I insist that DUP be brought back. What the hell. It isn't like he was a prospect or something. He was a full patched member. You have to be pretty fucked up to get kicked out of The Banditos so what the fuck. Let the motherfucker back in the cluster fuck.

Lamont, this is a reply to the thread, not you -- I just took the last poster as a respondent.

Sometimes, this isn't an audio forum. Sometimes, it is therapy. As a 30+ year schoolteacher, I can assure you that not all the hands that go up are ready to respond on topic.

Overall, it is a wonderful forum. Music is an important part of life, to all of us. So we argue about how to get the most bang for the buck. We all want heaven in our listening rooms, and the debate over how to get it rages on. Even though we get off topic, and throw shit in each other's faces over the most irrelevant minutiae, sooner or later it will all come back to the music.

What had happened to the forum? Nothing. Just stay tuned. Sooner or later, some deaf mothah-fuckah will come out with something stupid about numbers over notes, and we'll be all over it.

This isn't a forum. This is an institution. Define "institution" any way you wish.

And, in closing, I would like to offer the following gentle thought.

If you don't think the way I do, and you want me to change, YOU ARE A FUCKING NAZI. I, in contrast, am the voice of reason, crying to be understood amid the cacophonic blather of deluded assholes.

Happy tunes, all.

Your reply pretty well speaks for itself. You still cast yourself as a victim, and victims always seem to feel justified for whatever comes next. I contend most of what you seem to think has "happened" to you has been brought on by this attitude. Maybe it truly is unconscious. One could argue a great deal of DUP's need to start 15 threads a day about the same topic was unconscious, but it still was annoying and disruptive.

I see this topic coming down to two camps more or less: those that want a narrower focus on audio, and a less combative and more easy going atmosphere, and those that want a free for all, civility be damned. How Stereophile and Stephen decide to address those camps will decide which members stay and which ones leave.

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I'm a conservative with a BA in liberal arts. ................. You have to be pretty fucked up to get kicked out of The Banditos so what the fuck. Let the motherfucker back in the cluster fuck.

Didn't do much for your English expression petal.
Cluster fuck? Who exactly are we supposed to be fucking around here? If it's the moderator I'll be in it.... he's really kinda cute and red heads are always brilliant roots.

Excuse me if I dig up a little amateur web science here. I wonder if this forum has installed any form of traffic/hit analysis software? On several forums I've moderated we learnt something very interesting about peoples behavior collecting stats about usage with such software. By far the majority of new arrivals, and many registered users only ever hit on the one thread that is shown for each topic on the index page. So, if say the recent theological diatribe on the joys of Muslim hi-fi etc sat at the top of the 'General Rants & Raves' section and new arrivals introduction to this place was a reading of all that theology, do you think they're going to return later? So, if any topic wanders way off audio as it's central subject it should be moved to the 'Open Bar' section quick smart.
I know this will come as a shock to you Americans but a significant number of potential posters are living outside the Land of The Brave and Xenophobic and will arrive here while most of you are sleeping. Importantly this means posts can be made while our one and only moderator is asleep, or otherwise occupied. So, we can't blame SM for not jumping on unsuitable discussions that can clog up areas that should be devoted to audio. What this place needs is a group of moderators, some of whom should be awake when all you Obama voters (Lamont excluded) are asleep or busy driving your gas guzzling SUV's or whatever.
Does that make sense kiddies? I hope so.

You read what you care to read based on our past interpersonal engagements on this forum and I'll read what I actually post. Of course there are "camps" in this forum, it's a group of people coming together who have different views and dissimilar personalities. What were you expecting when you wandered in here? Romper Room? You want us all to sit in our seats and Stephen can hold up his magic wand to decide who needs your short leash? Get real, fella!

I'll tell you what I wasn't expecting; I wasn't expecting a bunch of dup groupies who constantly blamed me for what dup posted to get himself banned three times. Like I twisted his arm and made him post that crap over and over. I wasn't expecting someone to do a Google search of my personal information including telephone number and then be disappointed they couldn't look through my windows with GoogleEarth. I wasn't expecting anyone to insult my audio system on this forum, but it's happened more than once and by more than one individual. How's that for acting like an adult, eh? Has anyone done that to you? As far as I can see I'm the only one who has had that treatment on this forum and it's because I disagree with someone about hifi and that's how they retaliate when they don't get their way. I also wasn't expecting anyone on an audio forum to become so obssessed with another forum member that they would actually think up ways to insult that person without provocation and post what was obviously fake crap in an effort to ... what? What do you think he was trying to do with those posts? Even other people in "his camp" told him what he did was bullshit. Other people told those two idiots insulting someone's audio system was bullshit but that didn't stop them. You think they were behaving like adults? And I really wasn't expecting someone, or several someones, to post the same crap a hundred times just to provide themself with another oppportunity to insult anyone who disagrees. But that's what I've found on this forum that you haven't addressed in the slightest manner.

And you never said what you would have done had you been in the same position.

If any of that makes me sound like I'm playing the victim to you, then I suggest you pull your head out of that dark place where you've been keeping it since you joined this forum. All of this is because I disagree with someone about hifi. That's just f'ing stupid! What adult does that sort of thing?

About hifi!

That's not being a victim, that's being incredulous to just how childish some of these people can get.

Now, if you want to make this thread about me and not about anyone else on this forum, that tells me everything I need to know about you and this thread can move forward without anything else being said between us because you're crossing over into one of those who gets obssessed by another forum member and I've had my share of that for the morning, thank you very much. If you want to hold a grudge just because we've disagreed abut hifi, you just go ahead and knock yourself out, kiddo. I have better things to do that don't involve you.

I LOVE THIS BAR!

RG

A psychology professor told a class one day that red hair was a sign of inbreeding. I was in that class. Poor thing. There was a girl in the class with red hair. Everybody turned around to look at her. She was bona fide.

Well, I'd hate to see this place become like Audio AssKissers. I prefer the light-handed moderation approach. The only time I've noticed a problem is when a spammer mounts an attack on the forum during off-hours of the U.S., but I haven't seen that happen for many months. With light moderation, the loose cannon tend to become very obvious, but then one can quickly put them on ignore.

Oh yeah, the ol' ignore button trick. Push the ignore button and the member falls through a trap door. "What're gonna do? Put me on ignore?" That will teach them a lesson they will never forget.

LOL! I wasn't thinking in terms of punishment, but of ridding oneself of annoyance.

"Now, if you want to make this thread about me and not about anyone else on this forum, that tells me everything I need to know--blah, blah, blah x 100"

I'm pretty sure it's you who makes everything about you. Oh well, you seem to enjoy, or need, to keep it going. I don't care really, but damn you take up a lot of space.

Sometimes I do but I always say something.

You on the other hand ...

I hope this finishes this conversation.

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I'll tell you what I wasn't expecting; I wasn't expecting a bunch of dup groupies who constantly blamed me for what dup posted to get himself banned three times. Like I twisted his arm and made him post that crap over and over. I wasn't expecting someone to do a Google search of my personal information including telephone number and then be disappointed they couldn't look through my windows with GoogleEarth. I wasn't expecting anyone to insult my audio system on this forum, but it's happened more than once and by more than one individual. How's that for acting like an adult, eh? Has anyone done that to you? As far as I can see I'm the only one who has had that treatment on this forum and it's because I disagree with someone about hifi and that's how they retaliate when they don't get their way. I also wasn't expecting anyone on an audio forum to become so obssessed with another forum member that they would actually think up ways to insult that person without provocation and post what was obviously fake crap in an effort to ... what? What do you think he was trying to do with those posts?

That's exactly the kind of behavior you should expect from those who post on forums that are frequented by 'hobbyists' of a particular kind. I could list more than a dozen audio, electronics etc forums/newsgoups haunted almost exclusively by hetro males ( hen-pecked?) where just this kind of behavior has become the norm. Unjustifiable invasion of posters' privacy is probably the single most important diagnostic sign for such madness. There's a psychology Ph D waiting for the first person brave enough to study this behavior in depth.

Do you get to keep the study subject in a dank, dark, tiny little cramped crate and only feed him mouldy walnut shells once every few weeks? And maybe poke him with a stick every now and again?

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Sometimes I do but I always say something.

You on the other hand ...

I hope this finishes this conversation.

Why you always down on dbowker. He trolled you into substantiating his claims. I call that being clever.

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Do you get to keep the study subject in a dank, dark, tiny little cramped crate and only feed him mouldy walnut shells once every few weeks? And maybe poke him with a stick every now and again?

JSBACH
Bring out The Gimp.

MAYNARD
I think The Gimp's asleep.

JSBACH
Well, I guess you'll just wake 'em
up then, won't you?

Maynard opens a trap door in the floor.

MAYNARD
(yelling in the hole)
Wake up!

Maynard reaches into the hole and comes back holding onto a leash. He gives it a rough yank and, from below the floor, rises THE GIMP.

The Gimp is a man they keep dressed from head to toe in black leather bondage gear. There are zippers, buckles and studs here and there on the body. On his head is a black leather mask with two eye holes and a zipper (closed) for a mouth. They keep him in a hole in the floor big enough for a large dog. JSBach takes the chair, sits it in front of the two prisoners, then lowers into it. Maynard hands The Gimp's leash to JSBach, then backs away.

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Why you always down on dbowker.

He made it personal.

One thing that has happened to this forum is The Open Bar has resulted in a small handful of people turning this further away from an audio forum into an opportunity to post endless partisan political rants. This has become the dup version of political warfare with several posts each day that say the same thing and have only the point of view of bashing those who disagree. Rather than an occasional political comment finding its way into this section, it has become the dumping ground for those who sometimes have little to say about audio. Looking at the posts from a few members who are regulars to The Open Bar their contributions are highly partisan on one side of the dial and they appear to come to the forum for political commentary rather than a discussion of audio.

Between the hyper-partisan "anti-tweak" threads that are started for one reason only and the rabidly partisan political threads, there's not much room for audio here and there's certainly not much room for a discussion to break out.

While The Entry Level was a reasonable success a few months ago, The Open Bar seems to have created unintended consequences. Sometimes you know what you know, sometimes you know what you don't know and sometimes you don't know what you don't know.

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The Open Bar seems to have created unintended consequences. Sometimes you know what you know, sometimes you know what you don't know and sometimes you don't know what you don't know.

Uh, isn't that what one encounters in an open bar?

...or the "known unknowns" vs. the "unknown unknowns". Where have I heard this before?

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Uh, isn't that what one encounters in an open bar?

I guess that would depend on where you hang out. Ever been to an open bar at a Methodist wedding? Not a lot of unknowns there.

What you talkin' 'bout, Jan?

Geez, LS, isn't that what most people are usually askin' you?

I'm talkin' 'bout known Methodist weddings, of course!

What they are getting here is a new generation of humorless "audiophiles" with 400 medias max, discussing gravely and congratulating each others about their turntables..

What happened to the old hilarious newsnet gang I don't know but here I am bored to death.

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What they are getting here is a new generation of humorless "audiophiles" with 400 medias max, discussing gravely and congratulating each others about their turntables. happened to the old hilarious newsnet gang I don't know but here I am bored to death.

Sadly I've learnt to suppress and modify my sense of humor on forums etc. Us Australians have a somewhat sarcastic, and often politically incorrect by US standards, way of 'taking the piss out of' whomever we're taking to. This more often than not gets interpreted as deliberate rudeness and insult. In Australia, the more you 'have a go' at your mates the more it indicates your actual respect for them . I know, everything's upside down down here.
By the way, what on earth is a "400 medias max" ? ? ?

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What they are getting here is a new generation of humorless "audiophiles" with 400 medias max, discussing gravely and congratulating each others about their turntables. happened to the old hilarious newsnet gang I don't know but here I am bored to death.

Sadly I've learnt to suppress and modify my sense of humor on forums etc. Us Australians have a somewhat sarcastic, and often politically incorrect by US standards, way of 'taking the piss out of' whomever we're taking to. This more often than not gets interpreted as deliberate rudeness and insult. In Australia, the more you 'have a go' at your mates the more it indicates your actual respect for them . I know, everything's upside down down here.
By the way, what on earth is a "400 medias max" ? ? ?

Fuck you.

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Fuck you.

If you weren't so ugly I'd take you up on that LS.

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What they are getting here is a new generation of humorless "audiophiles" with 400 medias max, discussing gravely and congratulating each others about their turntables..

What on earth is a '400 medias max'?
And whilst there's been some discussion of Methodists and the lack of humor I feel impelled to regurgitate my favorite Methodist joke.
"Why don't Methodists have sex standing up"?
"Because it might lead to dancing"!

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JSBACH Bring out The Gimp.etc . . ..

They're your sexual fantasies, not mine Lamont.

shut up, frog.

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What they are getting here is a new generation of humorless "audiophiles" with 400 medias max, discussing gravely and congratulating each others about their turntables..

What happened to the old hilarious newsnet gang I don't know but here I am bored to death.