I don't see a picture.

What are you doing, Buddha, and why are you doing it?

You are selling the pre-owned repitition of dup's repetitive rants. Same sad topic with just another thread title.

You have started how many threads concerning tweaks that all end the same? You start a thread with the same intent every time, to provide a small group the opportunity to insult anyone and everyone who thinks differently than you do.

What's the problem here, guy? Won't the dog let you kick it any more? Did your wife finally get enough of your BS?

This is what you see as enjoyable on this forum, constantly starting threads that have only one purpose - to allow yet another round of insults to be launched?

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I don't want to cause a bias ...

ROTFLMF'ingAO!

C'mon, own up to what you're doing and stop trying to bait people into getting involved in another "tweak" thread with you or any of your cohorts. We know how this movie turns out before we rent the DVD.

plant absorber, corner.

Open window, bass trap.(it might be open, hard to say)

mass loaded speaker, with dissipation, records on top.

Direct coupled TT, no IC's. (short wire)

Again, short wire on speakers, from amp.

Speaker decoupled from bottom rack shelf.

Metal rack, always good thing.

Wooden chassis on INTEGRATED amplifier.

Integrated amplifier -- again, with the no cables thing.

Tubes-always better if it's doable and workable.

There's a few more, but I don't care to mention them, as well as a few bad things.

And if you get that dowdy dress off Mom, she looks like she's a pretty hot smilin' babe, in her own very white kinda way.

When I was a young guy in this here university town, we looked at all the young babes moving in to their apartments in the fall.

20 years later-we are staring at all their well-off newly divorced 'workout monster' smokin'hot free wheeling moms driving +$80k cars and SUV's. Wow. Yum. Perfect.

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C'mon, own up to what you're doing and stop trying to bait people into getting involved in another "tweak" thread with you or any of your cohorts. We know how this movie turns out before we rent the DVD.

Jan, if you know how it turns out, why even bother posting? Why dont you ask yourself just how it is that youve managed to get on so many ignore lists... You spend about half the time bitching about thread content, and the other half throwing flames. you are going to keep it up until the whole forum has you on ignore.. seriously, guy... . I dont see anyone else whining about Buddha's post.. it is always you, always Jan in some fray.. getting old, man. Seriously.

now that I think about it..you are the only one that EVER complains here. like a damned broken record.

ncdrawl, I'll take your post and your obvious bias for what both are worth, absolutely nothing.

Have you thought about why you piss in people's Cherios just to have something to do? What is it? Your dog won't have anything to do with you either?

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Now, is there a "triple ignore" switch so Jan's petulance won't even show up in quotes? What a bitch!

You could stop posting the dead fish bait threads.

You could stop reading the forum all together.

Or you could instruct ncdrawl to stop pissing.

Either way, problem solved.

You're welcome.

Is that an Acoustic Resonator on the wall just to left of the lamp? There's a roller bearing isolation assembly nestled in between the turntable and a Neuance Shelf and what appears to be a Clever Little Clock on top of the second electonics box. Tuned Helmholz resonators rest comfortably on the tray. The chap at right is obviously the audiophile of the group, operating the polarity switch. "See, I told you - it WAS out of phase."

"The distinction between the past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." ~ Albert Einstein

Geoff:
I have an Mpingo disc pattern on the walls of my dedicated stereo room very similar to yours.We both consulted with Bill Ying. They're indispensible for producing a much larger soundstage in my room. I also have a stack on each side of my listening position.
I tried the triangular array on my speakers, but never heard a difference. But for spacial room control, those discs are amazing.

id bet you that room is effing amazing. 90 tons of MDF!

"But for spacial room control, those discs are amazing."

I heard that.

Glorified drink coasters as acoustic devices? I'll admit that I haven't tried them but color me skeptical. I wonder what Ethan's response will be.

"Glorified drink coasters as acoustic devices? I'll admit that I haven't tried them but color me skepticalI wonder what Ethan's response will be."

Mos' likely some long screed about how this is impossible, it's way to small, hasn't been calibrated, science doesn't allow it, yada, yada, yada....

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Mos' likely some long screed about how this is impossible, it's way to small, hasn't been calibrated, science doesn't allow it, yada, yada, yada....

Yep, and they are all good points too. On top of a component they COULD make a difference. Mind you I'm not saying they DO, I've never tried them. But the idea that they could change room acoustics by putting a could in the corner is pretty far fetched. Attaching them to the wall might help dampen drywall resonance, but it would be extremely expensive and inefficient. I'm very skeptical of any tweak that seems to make a difference wherever it is places. To me it strikes me as a marketing ploy, ". . . oh your wife doesn't like them there? Just move them somewhere else." Kind of like the clock thing YOU sell.

A reminder, before you TRY to slag me off by painting me as some judgmental hard core objectivists remember that you're talking to a guy that is FIRMLY on the record as a tweaker

I'll bet none of you remember a comprehensive Stereophile article in the early 90's on Mpingo discs and their effect on room acoustics. That's what got me started and I had to prove it to myself and other listeners. Their usual comment was " how do these do it ??". Just like the Acoustic Revive RR-77 that I just tested with some other audiophiles.

I remember Jonathan Scull favorably reviewing them. I also remember Barry Willis' remarks on the matter, which were very well thought out. For those who didn't read it originally they can see the whole narrative here

Thanks mrlowry, I put this article in my favorites. Haven't seen it since it was published. As valid today as in '95.

>>> "I remember Jonathan Scull favorably reviewing them. I also remember Barry Willis' remarks on the matter, which were very well thought out. For those who didn't read it originally they can see the whole narrative here" <<<

And, after reading Jonathan Scull's articles referred to above, please continue on to the end, to read John Atkinson's reply to a reader's letter. (To quote some of John's reply) :-

>>> "Barry Willis examines issues raised by the Shun Mook devices elsewhere in this issue. The Shun Mook Mpingo discs divide me straight down the middle: I can't see why they have any effect; yet I have heard them make an improvement. But while I can think of no mechanism by which the Mpingo discs can work their magic, that doesn't mean any effect must be non-existent. I am not so arrogant as to suppose that the only things that can happen are those that I can imagine. (Those who declare that, unless they can think of a mechanism for something happening, it can't happen, are presuming knowledge of all that was known, is known, and is still to be known. That they actually possess such knowledge seems unlikely.) I will not allow my skepticism to interfere with the joy I get from my music, therefore." <<<

And, from Martin Colloms review of the Harmonix Discs - Stereophile August 1993.

>>> "In contrast to other room-acoustic control systems, no sound absorbing action is claimed for these devices. Combak intends the discs to be attached to major room surfaces, particularly the ceiling etc.
Despite my former positive experience with Combak tuning devices, I was skeptical that these discs could improve my listening room, which is known to have good, well-balanced acoustics. Evaluating component or loudspeaker improvements is my field of expertise.

The Harmonix Room Tuning Devices were fascinating in that they had zero effect on the primary room acoustics, the room's low-frequency model resonances, or the early reverberation pattern. Yet something WAS significantly different. The room seemed to allow a wider dynamic range, sounding strangely "quieter" and allowing for darker, deeper silences between musical notes. The decay structure of individual notes was cleaner and clearer, while, in many cases, the definition of note values was substantially improved.

Freeing the end points of notes from a previously unsuspected straight-jacket of blurring, muddle and obfuscation. Moreover, stereo focus and image uniformity were surprisingly improved. Some stereo image distortion that I had assumed to be due to reflections from local boundaries was lifted away.
Singing voice became more natural and articulate, with a surprising improvement in intimacy and presence. Complex material was definitely clearer, while massed choir showed better definition and clarity with less hardness and "clogging up". Even more remarkably, the music's dynamics, rhythm, and timing were significantly improved, to the extent that I just sat back and ignored the details, the subjective analysis and the attempt to describe how it works. You just relax and enjoy the greater swing in the music, the flow, the clarity, the easy dynamics and the control.
Another fascinating aspect is that the room tuning device treatment not only makes the Hi Fi sound better, it also improves the sound of the radio, TV, piano." <<<

************
Also interesting is the background story to how Dr. Andrew Chow made his chance discovery which resulted in his Cable Jackets (also referred to in Jonathan Scull's article on the Shun Mook devices)

Your quote mrlowry. "Glorified drink coasters as acoustic devices? I'll admit that I haven't tried them but color me skeptical. I wonder what Ethan's response will be."

We KNOW what Ethan's response would be - he has already expressed it.
"Just as bad are magic hockey pucks, too-small room treatments that defy all that is known about physics" followed by the term "bullshit" at every opportunity.

Your quote mrlowry.
>>> "But the idea that they could change room acoustics by putting a could in the corner is pretty far fetched. Attaching them to the wall might help dampen drywall resonance, but it would be extremely expensive and inefficient. I'm very skeptical of any tweak that seems to make a difference wherever it is places. To me it strikes me as a marketing ploy". <<<

Why do they 'absolutely' have to be 'changing the room acoustics' ??? Why does everything in a room HAVE TO BE understood solely from an acoustic point of view ??? Why can't you start at people's observations and work from there ??? Why can't you ask "If it is not altering acoustics, what IS it altering, then try to answer that question ??"

And, quite importantly, after reading Jonathan Scull's, Brian Willis's, John Atkinson's and Martin Colloms's comments, why would you believe (or suggest even) that they could ALL have been influenced by a "marketing ploy" - because that is what you are insinuating when you say "To me it strikes me as a marketing ploy".

"To me it strikes me as a marketing ploy" may be a serious proposition on your behalf, mrlowry, in which case you are inferring that all the journalists mentioned above had succumbed to such a 'marketing ploy', or it may be just a throwaway comment by you - which is quite disingenuous of you when you claim to be "a guy that is FIRMLY on the record as a tweaker"

John Atkinson's words,
>>> "The Shun Mook Mpingo discs divide me straight down the middle: I can't see why they have any effect; yet I have heard them make an improvement. But while I can think of no mechanism by which the Mpingo discs can work their magic, that doesn't mean any effect must be non-existent. I am not so arrogant as to suppose that the only things that can happen are those that I can imagine." <<<

are as relevant today as they were then, back in May 1994.

As I have replied to ned. "The question " how do these do it ??" should be on everyone's lips !!"

Regards,
May Belt.

>>> "I'll bet none of you remember a comprehensive Stereophile article in the early 90's on Mpingo discs and their effect on room acoustics. That's what got me started and I had to prove it to myself and other listeners. Their usual comment was " how do these do it ??". Just like the Acoustic Revive RR-77 that I just tested with some other audiophiles." <<<

Please see my reply to mrlowry. The question " how do these do it ??" should be on everyone's lips !!

I would be very interested to hear of your experiences with the Acoustic Revive (Schumann resonance device). I made particular references to it in my articles, last year, on Positive Feedback Online.

Regards,
May Belt.

Well May, I spent several days carefully auditioning the RR-77 in my dedicated stereo room. I heard the difference immediately ! I then brought the unit to my audiophile friend and we auditioned it on his system with a third listener who attends a concert series with us.WE listened to CD's and records and even did blind testing.We are all seasoned concert goers who know the sound of live music. It doesen't get any better than at Disney Hall.
I bought the unit and my friend ordered his. We are still scratching our heads wondering how this thing works so well.

Thanks. This is interesting. It confirms Jeff Day's and Stephaen Harrell's (from 6 moons) experiences with it.

Regards,
May Belt.

"On top of a component they COULD make a difference."

Yup, maybe so, all depends. A bit of trial and error is involved. The most likely locations are pretty well documented all over the internet, but we're always on the lookout for new ideas.

"Mind you I'm not saying they DO, I've never tried them. But the idea that they could change room acoustics by putting a could in the corner is pretty far fetched."

Most people would probably not put them in corners. It's a matter of trying various locations to see where effects show up. The various "hot spots" for Mpingo discs are fairly well documented on the internet and Shun Mook IIRC gives some suggestions for use. MY pebbles on the other hand DO go in room corners and can double or even triple performance in those locations. It all depends.

"Attaching them to the wall might help dampen drywall resonance, but it would be extremely expensive and inefficient."

One goes a long way, trust me. Think "resonator." Only one in the room in the right location will make you a believer. One of the most powerful doo-dads around. Trust me.

"I'm very skeptical of any tweak that seems to make a difference wherever it is places. To me it strikes me as a marketing ploy... "

Why would that be, all rooms and systems are different.

"Kind of like the clock thing YOU sell."

Well, not really. MY clock can go anywhere, but the Shun Mook discs can be quite fussy where they go. I can see why some folks don't hear 'em cause they give up too quick. Operator error.

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Why do they 'absolutely' have to be 'changing the room acoustics' ??? Why does everything in a room HAVE TO BE understood solely from an acoustic point of view ??? Why can't you start at people's observations and work from there ??? Why can't you ask "If it is not altering acoustics, what IS it altering, then try to answer that question ??"

May-

If the Shun Mook disks aren't changing the sound acoustically or electrically by what mechanism DO they work? If you can't specify a mechanism at least provide a theory that's plausible. If you say that it's resonating it's resonating in sympathy with the system or the sound in the room, then in my opinion it's a coloration. In my book a coloration is never an improvement, at best it's a band-aid that's masking a problem.

Buddha-

Please don't lump the Ayre/Cardas wood blocks into the same category as the Shun Mook disks. First, there is at least a plausible theory on how they work. Second, they don't make magical, life changing claims for these little babies. Third, at $15 for a set of three they are much cheaper. In my opinion if they were scamming people, they'd be smart enough to charge more.

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So do wood blocks, eh?

Buddha-

Yes, wood blocks resonate but so does everything else. I do not believe that the benefit of the Ayre/Cardas blocks is in their resonant behavior ADDING a pleasurable element to the sound. I believe that the mechanism at work that improves the sound is the DRAINING of resonances AWAY from the component and into the equipment rack. The acoustic impedance of the wood blocks is much more similar to the metal of the component bottom AND the wood of the rack shelves than the rubber feet. Why don't they allow those same resonances in as well as drain them away? I'm don't really know to be honest with you. Now I would admit that with this theory the ideal situation would be to have metal shelves and metal footer, all made for more or less the same metal.

Don't ONLY ask me, mrlowry, ask yourself !!

I suggest you read how Jonathan Scull and particularly Martin Colloms described what they heard. Ask YOURSELF "Were those detailed descriptions REALLY colourations caused by the Shun Mook and Harmonix devices ?" To me, reading their observations, it did not seem a description of colourations being "a band-aid that's masking a problem" - their descriptions were more of being suddenly able to resolve MORE of the information which was already in the room !!!!!!!!!

If the devices were 'masking a problem', you then have to ask "what was the problem they were masking ??"

Are you seriously implying that those journalists mentioned were merely 'hearing the effect of a band aid' ??

First of all you describe the Shun Mook and Harmonix devices as "a marketing ploy", then you suggest they could be just "a band aid". Such as Ethan explains away the effect of the Harmonix devices as 'the placebo effect'. How anyone can read those journalists detailed descriptions of the effect of those devices and dismiss them so easily as "being taken in by a marketing ploy", "just a band aid masking a problem", "the placebo effect".
If you haven't actually experienced the effect of those devices for yourself, what does it take, what words DO THEY HAVE TO WRITE for you to be intrigued enough not to dismiss THEM (the journalists) and the whole thing out of hand (which is what so many people are wont to do).

To be intrigued enough to be prepared to 'think out of the box'.

Even as far back as 1986, John Crabbe, in trying to find some explanation as to why many people were reporting 'hearing' different cables sound different, resorted to thinking "Could it be the actual hearing mechanism being DIRECTLY affected ?"

To Quote John :-
>>> "But now another possibility arises: that the influence is purely physical/physiological in origin............... which makes me wonder whether some cables in some set-ups may to some listener's ears affect their perilymph without them realising it.......... I put these thoughts to Dr Frey, who so far has no separate data to support such a hypothesis. But he concedes that such effects are possible in principle, and will welcome any information which helps in assessing (or actually measuring) the supposed phenomenon." <<<

Our (PWB) concept is slightly different, although on the same theme, i.e 'an effect on the hearing mechanism once removed, not direct'. I.e 'an effect on the human being, causing tension, which (tension) then, in turn causes an adverse effect on the information being conveyed by the hearing mechanism'.

What is very interesting is that the majority of people's descriptions of the effect of the various Schumann resonance devices is how much more relaxed they are, how much more relaxed is their perception of the music. How, after many years involved in the audio industry, presumably fully understanding conventional electronic and acoustic theories, when confronted with something changing the sound which they are having difficulty in explaining, they are now having to consider the concept "Could the answer be that it is us, human beings, who are the ones being affected ?"

To quote Jeff Day :-
>>> "The non-musical elements of the recording process such as soundspace, soundstaging, imaging, extreme detail recovery and so forth all have a dollop of naturalness applied to them.

With the RR-77 doing its little magic act, I can listen all day long with zero listening fatigue" <<<

To quote Stephaen Harrell :-
>>> "But, I never experienced the sense of relaxededness that the RR-77 Promotes." <<<

And, to quote Martin again re the Harmonix Discs :-
>>> "You just relax and enjoy the greater swing in the music, the flow, the clarity, the easy dynamics and the control.
Another fascinating aspect is that the room tuning device treatment not only makes the Hi Fi sound better, it also improves the sound of the radio, TV, piano." <<<

Regards,
May Belt.

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there must be some audiophiles who think resonances are quite beneficent.

There's no accounting for taste, or for something sounding "different" being perceived as better even when it's worse. I see this all the time.

--Ethan

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Too bad you just can't be the Joseph Stalin of audio and inflict 'proper' sound on everybody. That would be great.

That's not fair or accurate. A perfect example is those horrible "big eyed kids" paintings that were popular years ago:

Or Elvis painted on black velvet:

Now, if you were to tell me that this is not bad art because "bad" is always subjective, I have to agree. But it's still bad art anyway, and I'm sure you know that it's bad.

The same applies to music. I'm sure you've heard plenty of "modern" music that just sucks. All dissonance, nothing ever resolves, screwy time signatures that change every few measures, bad violins that sound like the sound track from Psycho, and even worse. I hate that stuff. I bet you hate it too.

And the same applies to hi-fi systems. Anyone who intentionally sticks a bunch of resonating objects in their listening room suffers from bad musical taste. Unrefined. Or at least uneducated.

--Ethan

I feel for you man!

This was just posted over at Tweakers on Audio Asylum, someone needs to go over there and straighten the son of bitch out, and pronto!

"Okay, I realize this is opening myself up to being hit with "flamethrowers", but after reading about the benefits of topaz and tourmaline crystals on this forum, I figured what the heck and went to a local rock shop and picked up a few small samples. I prepared three small zip lock baggies each with a piece of blue topaz tumble, a piece of pink tourmaline, and a Herkimer "diamond". I attached one of these baggies to the AC inlet of my power conditioner, another one over the circuit breaker to the dedicated line powering my system, and a third baggy inside my SACD player next to the transformer. I didn't expect to hear anything, and felt silly even trying this but, hey, it only cost a couple of bucks and the stones were pretty cool anyways. To my amazement, this made a substantial, not at all subtle improvement to the sound of the system. The noise floor seems to have lowered and the timbre is much more natural. The first question I have is: why does this happen (aside from the alleged placebo effect)? Secondly, where else should I try these crystals to maximize their effect? Thanks in advance for any helpful responses."

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I happen to relish Elvis on velvet paintings.

Some favorites:

Elvis has a special place in my heart. I became really familiar with his bandmates while on tour as the bass singer for The Stamps(Elvis longtime backup quartet(I took JD Sumner's place(the guiness world record holder for lowest bass)). I know all of his songs and have some really kick ass bootlegs of rehearsals at graceland and other places...id be glad to share..the "fluff" aside, he was a really talented person who made some great music...

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... before you TRY to slag me off by painting me as some judgmental hard core objectivists remember that you're talking to a guy that is FIRMLY on the record as a tweaker

If you are a "tweaker" - such a word, like "liberal" it has been turned into something ugly and Pavlovian by the rabid partisan opposition - order the Belt foil. Then ask yourself how this affects the acoustics of the room.

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/

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Glorified drink coasters as acoustic devices? I'll admit that I haven't tried them but color me skeptical. I wonder what Ethan's response will be.

Really?! You wonder?

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...part=1&vc=1

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This one looks like Paul Rubens took some time off of portraying Pee Wee Herman to become an Elvis impersonator.

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All the "fluff" aside, he was a really talented person who made some great music...

Yes. Damn straight. Elvis was a monster.

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Well May, I spent several days carefully auditioning the RR-77 in my dedicated stereo room. I heard the difference immediately ! I then brought the unit to my audiophile friend and we auditioned it on his system with a third listener who attends a concert series with us.WE listened to CD's and records and even did blind testing.We are all seasoned concert goers who know the sound of live music. It doesen't get any better than at Disney Hall.
I bought the unit and my friend ordered his. We are still scratching our heads wondering how this thing works so well.

If you go and look at my bits on how the ear works in that dang thread (I can't recall the name of it here) you will find some info in there that should clear up that mystery of 'measurements vs the ear'.

Our audtioning trio consists of a PhD in engineering physics, a mechanical engineer and a cardiologist. As men of science, we had great fun in speculating as to how this "thing' worked. In the final analysis, it didn't matter why-only what we heard mattered, and it was unanimous.

ned, let me ask you a question.

I've seen many people who consider themself highly rational get caught up in the game of figuring out alternative treatments, even how simple things such as cables affect the sound quality they preceive. They think it must work this way or that way but virtually always their thinking is confined to what they already know. They cannot break from the "rational" side of what they think must happen to engage something they have never thought about or considered as possible.

When I look at the progressive movement in any area I see people who are generally looking forward and not backward. What has come before is history to build upon but not to repeat.

I'm wondering how much of the speculation from this group of scientific thinkers stayed tied to the already known things you could conceive and how many were flights of fancy that said "what if"? As May puts it so often, did you begin from what you know and force the end result into that framework or did you start at the result and think of all the possible causes for the change you perceived? If the latter, is this how your group generally goes about moving your systems forward or is this a one off and you aren't convinced yet everything must follow what you can rationalize?

Have you tried freezing a CD?