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Sheesh, he should have been thanking the medical doctors - they're the only ones who actually did anything useful!
--Ethan
____________________
Bring back DUP
Can you post me how that is a proven fact?
Hegemony, dude, is bad karma.
now see, this is a prime example of one of my big disagreements with Ethan. I believe that to think we just exist, independent of any creator is incredibly arrogant and close minded. , that and power conditioners.
We were all created ???
Hope that same person never starts an audio company !!!!
jee, did we all just materialize out of nothing? have you ever really thought about it? the whole thing is very hard to fathom, I know, but to look around and see all that is around us and not see some evidence of an architect, is, to me, well I just do not undestand how anyone could believe in things such as the BIG BANG..
Actually I think mankind evolved over millions of years !!!
There isnt really a mystery here
The two greatest marketing scams of all time religion and demagnetizers.
How else can the universe's background of almost uniform microwave radiation be explained? And how is the Big Bang theory incompatible with a belief in God?
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Lots of ways John. The most interesting is 'The Big Bounce'. Several articles have appeared recently in New Scientist recently that briefly outline these kinds of theories. Essentially though, cosmology and nuclear physics, having gotten into bed together, have woken up with one huge hangover & are more confused than ever.
As to 'God', what's that?
Whilst not wishing to destabilize a comforting religious certainty and the psychological stability it probably provides many, may I suggest your belief system ignores the anthropocentric fallacy that trips many up. Consider this, amongst the countless universes that have and probably do exist probability suggests that one amongst that countless multitude will just happen to provide the necessary conditions for the existence of life forms as we know them. Having found ourselves in such a universe it's a very understandable mistake to say. " Ah ha! It must all be created just for us."
On the other hand, the religious never allow themselves to consider that IF we are here as the creation of a deity, or possibly an advanced race, we could simply be here to provide the equivalent of a form of sadistic entertainment, or worse still food, for that creator.
Essentially though my view is that all Holy Books, & therefore all religion, is potentially blasphemous as any such creator would be utterly beyond our understanding. Additionally those 'prophets' claiming to speak for an almighty creator could be in for a very nasty shock if & when they ever meet he/she/it/them. So, pray your belief system is correct.
"In thee, O Lord, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion" Psalm 71:V1.
PS. What on earth does any of this have to do with audio and how did we get here from the original topic?
Except that from I have read recently, the Universe appears to be "flat," ie, just enough mass/energy of all kinds to continue the expansion until it reaches equilibrium/heat death.
Indeed! But if you can't believe in two contradictory hypotheses before breakfast, what kind of scientist are you?
It could be argued that _someone_ or _something_ had to press the <Start> button and say "Let there be light?" As we have no way of peering past the original Singularity, it's as good a hypothesis as any :-)
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Well, if this Creator is omniscient or omnipotent, He must be OK with the notion of 60,000 dollar speaker wires, eh?
Not to mention omniloaded.
And Global Warming, don't forget the biggest scam of our life time after the Social Security Locked Box.
Have you never heard of red shift? That's proof enough for me.
More to the point, if god created the universe, who created god? The god "explanation" asks more questions than it answers. Some day the origins will be known for certain, and I promise you it will be learned by scientists, not theologians!
--Ethan
Pandora was the first 'scientist'.
Ethan,
There for a while I had trouble understanding why you were a sort of "step child" of this board. Silly me.
I thought it was Eve.
She performed an empiric test of a hypothesis expounded by a cable salesman.
I apologize for the cable joke. I like cables. Just goofing off.
Hey, I like cables too. Without them the electrons would have no way to get from here to there!
--Ethan
..a claim as yet unproven either as to our blindness or as to the actual reality of the so called singularity ..
Many things can be argued John. Take just one twist on the sadomasochist God of the Christians who chose to torture himself ( or part of himself if you're a trinitarian). The creator, bored silly with an all-knowing eternity, decided to create a being with free will, that is, us. Not able to live with the contradiction of omniscience and free will it/he, she necessarily had to make the supreme sacrifice and committed suicide. (A variation on John Ch10:V15.)
So, here we are, alone and responsible for creating the next divinity. We are obviously making a big mess of it.
As to the necessity of anyone/thing pressing the start button, if you're going to indulge in simplistic analogies with a CD player, why can't the creator have simply always had the cosmos on endless repeat with no end or beginning?
____________________________________________________________________________
Meanwhile,back at the CES, Audio/AV shows Reports from these shows often fall into one of three categories something like
1. " Conrad & Dizzlecrump were showing their new Gold 684X in a static display" Well, so what?
2........or."Conrad & Dizzlecrumps new Gold 684X sounded dull and unexciting but in the room they had at Las Vegas that's to be expected" Again, so what?
The only reports I find of any interest, and even then they're ambiguous, are along the lines of..............
3. "Conrad & Dizzlecrump's new Gold 684X was being used as the source in more rooms than we could count"
When I've attended these shows myself I've never been able to experience them us much more than communal audio pornography . Others obviously enjoy themselves immensely ogling all the new toys so who am I to criticize them? However, reporting such events is so fraught with dangers it's no wonder some people are never satisfied with what they read. Me, I gave up reading these reports some years ago.
JS- That was a very glib and dismissive take on things spiritual. If you had taken MORE acid in the '60's, instead of just partying, you would have learned the value of humility.
While you were defrocking the clergy (and vice-versa) in your strange little social circle, we were learning different life lessons that continue to resonate.
Rather than our world/God view being anthropocentric, religion teaches there are things more important than the INDIVIDUAL. We were taught to look for the Christ in others and treat others with kindness and respect as Christ would. Doing so not only benefits society (others), but helps us see the potential good in ourselves (as well as the hypocrisy). Seeing ouselves as redeemable allows us to see others in their best light. Judge not, lest thou be judged- not by God- but by the interminable self-loathing we create when we try to deny our sins and see only the sins of others. Service to others in need- think Mother Theresa- is watching God in action.
My God is ineffable and defies anthropomorphism. God is not angry, bored or hairy thunderer. I don't and can't know everything God is. But I can look around in wonder and experience God's creation in the brotherhood of man on earth (or sisterhood anyway- women seem to be closer to this paradigm). I'm not close, but I'm still trying.
The funny thing about science and The Big Bang and the Missing Link and all the Perfect Knowledge of the Enlightened Lab Coats is that it will all be discarded and changed when a new set of facts comes into understanding, replacing the old set of facts which no longer apply. The big anthropomorphic lie that Ethan peddles is that WE have all the answers and all the knowledge and science will take us to some place of greater understanding about our world and ourselves. It can in its proper context as a tool of understanding (but don't BE the tool!). My God doesn't need to be worshipped, why do some men of science require such?
Excellent. Glad he did. Now...back to audio.
Worshippers of Baal, Zeus, Osiris, Thor, Lono, etc...would all say the same thing about these new fangled Gods that keep coming along, with Perfect Knowledge of the Enlightened Frock people thinking they have it all figured out...until the next God comes along.
Same turnover, same 'infallibility.'
The only thing certain in life is that anyone who claims absolute/eternal knowledge is wrong.
I'm an atheist who is fine with God. If others see Him, how can anyone deny them such a great thing?
Just so long as they don't insist I see Him in the same way.
Kinda like Hi Fi tweaks, eh?
Question: Has anyone ever run into a holy book that was anything other than a statement of the Golden Rule, with about 1,000 pages to go along with it about when it's OK to rationalize breaking that same rule?
"The Golden Rule is universal and is what He teaches, except when someone does something we don't like, then it's OK to toss aside that Golden Rule and act out our lesser nature."
I said no such thing! In fact I acknowledged that "we" don't have all the answers yet when I wrote, "Some day the origins will be known for certain."
You disagree that science is the best method to learn about the universe?
Science has curiosity and telescopes. Religion has only "Because I say so" and no interest in learning otherwise.
I'm with Buddha on this one. If god does it for you, that's okay with me. Just don't expect me to embrace your god. At least not without at least some evidence.
--Ethan
Ethan, exactly what evidence would you require?
Personal appearance?
Magic tricks?
Levitation?
I think either you see the 'evidence' and it speaks to you, or you don't.
The average atheist who says he requires 'proof' seems to be operating one or two levels below what believers seem to be describing. They don't seem to require proof of the "comic book concept" of God.
I simply lack the gene for faith.
Ethan, in your opinion, if He did exist, how would the world be different than it is?
I kind of think it would be the same, either way.
Yes! All of the above. At the same time.
This is one of my favorite quotes:
"When you talk to God it's called prayer; when God talks to you it's called schizophrenia." --From The Outer Limits TV show
Well, we all know that god is a loving god. So the world would be much nicer - no wars, no human and animal suffering. Oh wait, I forgot, he's a vengeful god. So there would be wars and suffering. Which is exactly what we have. Damn, Buddha, you just converted me!
--Ethan
Let me guess...you teach Sunday school when you aren't peddling fiberglass doodads.
And that works both ways?
Winer?
Saturday school.
I find Ethan's comments re God offensive as all hell, and ultimately arrogant, but I shant let that carry over to sully my respect for him as an audio expert of sorts(at least acoustics)
Sadly, no.
Many people of faith are surprisingly dogmatic about which faith is 'correct.'
The evidence suggests otherwise as does Isaiah Ch33:V:8-10
Sorry, I meant ... works both ways in audio?
So did I!
we all get out of the bible what we wish to see. we do not really see the bible for what it is, but rather for what WE are.
Let's talk about Calvin. Or Hobbes.
Or Emperor Constantine.
How the celebration of the birth of Christ..is about actually..celebrating about 5 different pagan gods, the final, on the 24th/25th of December being the Pagan God Saturn. The great destroyer, the Great Limiter. The great cosmic controller. The 25th of December is also the celebration of 'Sol Invictus', or Mars (other faiths of the time), the blood god of war. Apollo. Ego (Sun, Sol, etc). If the shoe fits-wear it. Christ, the man, was not even born anywhere near that date in December.
Constantine twisted the Pagan and Christian faiths into one religion to kill the strife that had enveloped his empire due to the two belief systems....and destroyed all prior works he could and killed anyone who said different. Thus the modern lie was born.
And, of course, how in true Christianity, you are NOT supposed to celebrate the birth of the MAN named Christ. The deity aspect was thrown like a blanket over Christ by the rulers of the church-who killed anyone who said otherwise. So yeah, sadly, Roman Catholicism, at it's core is all about twisting people into worshiping lies-and control. Sure, some of the pastors are good, and the people are good...but hell....know your history and know what they are shoving at you.
Council of Nicaea, anyone? Maybe the second Council?
I'd say I'm steadfastly Spiritual, and like the Buddhists say that any path is fine..as long as it's an -honest- search for truth. This is of course, including the idea of not killing other people for their differing beliefs.
Any other enactment or ideals passed is largely a populace control mechanism enacted by smarter evil men. And to say that the vast majority of Religious endeavors today encompass such a despicable scenario, would be to put lie to what is out there-it's far worse.
I was literally kicked out of the church (screw you, I quit first!) when I was 8-1/2, so what do I know.
We could go on for years, here, so do you really wanna?
Organized religion is got to be the most dangerous aspect of life on this planet right now. Spirituality is an individual aspect that comes from inside. Churches and places of worship have absolutely nothing to do with it.
Either it is real- or it isn't. End of story.
So how about that CES 2009?
Post deleted by Stephen Mejias
That is strikingly unfair, and I request that above post and specifically that photo be removed.
Ignorance will get you nowhere, except more ignorance.
Well said KBK although I can't quite see why you've chosen Calvin or Hobbes.
Let's not get into that though or we'll end up with Descartes & Spinoza only to finally disappear up our own metaphysical backsides. We are after all supposed to be discussing something about audio shows and the way they're reported. Or are we?
Hey, I'm just a reporter talking about what I saw.
Why 'surprisingly'? After all faith based religion is based on subjectivity and blind trust and therefore not subject to criticism with logical proof or disproof.
However, the religious are able to delude themselves they 'know' God.
"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father and of Christ" Colossians Ch:2.V:2
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The great mystery is now how the hell did we get here from CES?
Maybe theology should be reserved for discussion in the Open Bar?
I lost track of LSD trips at something like 115. Wasn't that enough?
And yes, I can see why you suggest I should have exceeded the amount you imagine I consumed having arrived at states that many take to be religious experiences. However, those experiences couldn't explain why those who claim such events as being in touch with the 'divine' could justify so un-shakable a belief. Music however does take us into an inexplicable realm and I can understand why some feel they are in touch with the 'divine' when, say, lost in a Bach organ work.
Now that's funny. In 'my strange little social circle' it was the clergy who were attempting to unfrock me, not I them. That is, in the sense they wanted me naked and at their disposal. As to it being a strange little social circle I suppose the Bishop, Archdeacons, Deans and their acolytes could indeed be described as strange. Many of them still are, in private though mind you.
Thanks for the theology lesson. However, there are many other schools of thought who assert just that without any reference to a divinity.
If the various streams of Christianity and it's many peculiar offshoots stuck to that moral code and the simple truths of the Gospels we would all benefit. Sadly that has never been the case.
I wish you hadn't mentioned Teresa. A close examination of her life reveals anything but a saintly character.
YOUR God? .....
Here you've fallen into one of the standard contradictions so many Christian theologians sink under. If your God is ineffable you cannot by definition know anything about that entity with certainty.
Andy, that's the best CES coverage by far!!! Kudos!!
What is offensive about my "show me" position?
Excellent, thanks!
At the risk of offending further, all over the news they're calling yesterday's plane crash a "miracle" because all the passengers survived. I saw a whole bunch of "Thank god!" posts in another forum. But how can you thank god for saving the passengers and not blame him for causing the crash (or letting it happen) in the first place? And what about all the plane crashes where everyone dies? It seems highly inconsistent to me to praise god when things go well, but not blame him when tragedy strikes. Doesn't it make much more sense that when "stuff happens" it's just more or less random?
--Ethan
Rod Serling went right over your pointy little head, didn't he? We are all just tiny little toys inside a giant six year old's playbox. When the kid decides the plane survives, we all survive and we get put back in the toy box. When the kid says we all die in a fiery mess, we all get tossed into the barbeque pit. Then Dad goes out and buys the kid a new set of toys. Episode 101.
Give it up, Winer, or move it to a different thread somewhere else. Your "refute me" approach to religion and faith is about as interesting as your theories on cables. I have no particular use for religion but I realize there's no need to start an argument over everything. Stay out of people's personal life.
Let someone believe what they care to believe about religion without your cynicism rubbing at them just for your personal entertainment.
Change "religion" to "audio" and then right back atcha pal.
--Ethan
This thread is about the CES Blog? How does it happen that, no matter what a thread starts out being, it ends up being about something else? Why can't we let people believe what they believe and get back to talking about audio?
Enough of the thought police! Has everyone truly extracted every last bit of information from our incredibly comprehensive show coverage that they possibly can?
jason
When I saw that pic, it was the high point of CES coverage for me as well. Why put up with whitewash from industry toadies when you can get the real "scoop"?
That seems odd coming from the person who insists everyone toe his line of thinking. Winer, you don't even realize how hysterical you are.
Jason,
We were talking about CES coverage and Andy got the picture taken at CES that showed the real scoop (poop scoop). Alas, that picture had been deleted... sigh...
Seriously though, the CES coverage has become a joke. I think CES has become a joke. There is only so much you can take as far as higher priced components. I'm not railing against high priced components, I'm ranting against the kind of thing that's just so ludicrous that it defies all sensibilities. $60k cables? $200k speakers? $900 metal feet? WTF? The argument that "expensive is in the eye of the beholder" only goes so far. Who's your audience? Does your audience see $60k reasonable accessories or does your audience consist of people with $15k systems? You want to cover $60k cables? - ok. However, if your coverage consists of shit like that you're going to get this kind of push back.
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