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You maybe right,You may be wrong but for God's sake, why does it take so very many words to say such a simple thing?
Are you an audiophile/politician?
You haven't heard anything...yet! Wait till they get goin' on May Belts' premise of "Polarities" and "Electrets".
RG
Yes, death by drivel would be a good name for it :-)
There you go again. Another content-free ad hominem post. Thanks for proving my point about you again. Me, I've made numerous in-depth contributions on the subject of this thread, offering rebuttals to your unsupported claims. All of which you've ignored, while you continue to write these stupid love notes to me. In essence, you've ran away from anything that even smells like a challenge to your baseless opinions on the Furutech in this thread. So do you at least have a good reason for avoiding debating me on the Furutech, you who wrote an angry conspiratorial letter to the CEA about the company (citing it as "fraud"), or should we just stick to your usual one, "coward"?
In any case, you're making a good case for yourself Ethan, and the other members of your "Hifi Snob Anti-Goodsound TrVth Squad". 160+ posts, several groundless charges of "snake oil" and "fraud", and you haven't even been able to debate your way out of a paper bag.
If some want information, why are they not the first to list any themselves? Are any affiliated, received or receiving any compensation, freebies etc from anyone?
Interesting response since you are the one who reversed positions, contradicting yourself in order to defend yourself, something you cannot sneak around.
Notice no science or anything technical mentioned, just a scripted put down from Ethan. You might want to try an intelligent, technical response next time (if you are able to) Ethan instead of dodging the facts I presented. Afterall, you are the one who reversed positions, contradicting yourself in order to defend and protect your position instead of the truth.
I see you also sidestepped my question of what projects you designed? But then since it has been demonstrated multiple times you do not understand even first semester basic electronics, I can see why you sidestepped the question.
You're right, he's contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the subject of this thread. All he's tried to do here is talk about amp measurements, because that's in his comfort zone. This way he can feel like an "eggspert" (not that he isn't wrong about his silly amp theories as well, but it requires its own thread). When I complained about that, stretching the truth as far as he could take it, he tried to tell me that amp measurements was fair game, because the title was about snake oil. But then more recently, this famously hypocritical double-talker told someone else the thread's subject was about the Demagnetizers. So he *does* know what the thread is about, but refuses to debate the subject.
And not even because he has no opinion on it. After all, he was one of the confused fools arguing that the Furutech could not demagentize plastic (as though Furutech ever said they could). When I took him to task on that, and refuted his position, Whiner did what he has always been known for doing: ducking, dodging and running away from an honest debate or challenge. "Sorry, out of my comfort zone", he says! Somehow, knowing absolutely scratch-all about the Furutech devices, did not stop this poster boy for the tin-eared dogmatic reactionary trVth squad from writing a letter to the CEA. Ranting about his conspiracy theories that they are in secret cahoots with Furutech for giving the company an award for their demag units! Too funny! They probably used his shamefully insane letter to line a bird cage. Inevitably, every time you point out their logical fallacies and baseless, erroneous assumptions, one of these trVth squad members gets hysterical and
claims you're working for the Hifi Snobz Snake Oil Industry, or some nonsense like that. These people are beyond therapy, if you ask me.
You're right, he's contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the subject of this thread. All he's tried to do here is talk about amp measurements, because that's in his comfort zone. This way he can feel like an "eggspert" (not that he isn't wrong about his silly amp theories as well, but it requires its own thread). When I complained about that, stretching the truth as far as he could take it, he tried to tell me that amp measurements was fair game, because the title was about snake oil. But then more recently, this famously hypocritical double-talker told someone else the thread's subject was about the Demagnetizers. So he *does* know what the thread is about, but refuses to debate the subject.
And not even because he has no opinion on it. After all, he was one of the confused fools arguing that the Furutech could not demagentize plastic (as though Furutech ever said they could). When I took him to task on that, and refuted his position, Whiner did what he has always been known for doing: ducking, dodging and running away from an honest debate or challenge. "Sorry, out of my comfort zone", he says! Somehow, knowing absolutely scratch-all about the Furutech devices, did not stop this poster boy for the tin-eared dogmatic reactionary trVth squad from writing a letter to the CEA. Ranting about his conspiracy theories that they are in secret cahoots with Furutech for giving the company an award for their demag units! Too funny! They probably used his shamefully insane letter to line a bird cage. Inevitably, every time you point out their logical fallacies and baseless, erroneous assumptions, one of these trVth squad members gets hysterical and
claims you're working for the Hifi Snobz Snake Oil Industry, or some nonsense like that. These people are beyond therapy, if you ask me.
You know all that, you wrote it. I just figured it was the length of the post that scared these guys and when they see more than one sentence follow another - in order - with a complete thought, they run from it. Kinda like a vampire and a crucifix. So, this might keep them off the trail for a while, Kemosabe. Maybe not, they like it when someone "copy/pastes" entire posts, I guess it makes them feel like they have said something even when they haven't.
Anyway, forgetting about those who have nothing to say but say it anyway.
What's your opinion on May's premise of "Polarities" and "Electrets"?
As you see, I've included your quote of my text to ensure this post is long enough to drive the mental midgets away from it, so they get "bored" and seek amusement elsewhere, and refrain from making stupid comments on our serious discussion. Also, I've refrained from adding bold, quotes, emoticons or shiny lights and baubles, to avoid attracting the little rugrats. Here's hoping they find distraction elsewhere, like the latest hamster video on youtube.
May knows exactly what she's talking about. But what she's talking about is (still) on the vanguard of audio science. As such, while its highly influential (on sound), its not well known and nowhere near being accepted. So it's beyond the knowledge or understanding of everyone "contributing" (lol!) to this thread. Probably everyone reading it as well. I'm not just towing the party line, I've done my own experiments that I believe relate to what she's talking about. From those, I've been able to affect plastic via magnetic processes; which has permitted me to improve audio sound just by experimenting with plastic objects. (My first experiment was with the body of my mp3 player). While I'm not able to change the laws of physics and make plastic magnetic, I'm able to use the "laws of physics" that are not so well known, and do some unusal things with that. This is not to be confused with anything that the Furutech does, of course.
To be honest here, I don't know that demagnetization is what's happening with the Furutech device. The Six Moons review gave little to go on other than Lloyd Walker disagrees with how the Furutech - or his device, I'm not sure which he was referring to - operates.
Walker is referring to the process itself, so he could be referring to any version of the DeMag device.
That would make three theories of how this does its job. Where are you at on any of them?
That's not unusual, to find different people having different theories of what's behind an audio phenomenon. I haven't tested the Furutech, so I can't say it works this way or that way. I would have to assume it works as the company claims, particularly as the magazine did measurements plotting its demagnetization. It could also work as Walker believes or May. Or even a combination of factors. If you want to know, you have to get one and do some serious tests; then work backwards, trying to eliminate each theory. e.g. The only way to tell if it operates on the Furutech theory, is to use a CD that's 100% pure aluminum and no label. Don't think such a monster exists, though. Six Moons suggests it may not work with players that use magnetic pucks, but they don't test the hypothesis.
But its telling that it isn't just Whiner that refuses to move the discussion forward, and has done his usual cowardly bit of running away from every refutation, every challenge made to him on the thread's subject. If we took all the zero contributors to this thread out right now, we'd find ourselves arguing with ourselves. Because even the thread's author, "Welsh hifi", as we have seen, refuses to debate the subject of his own thread! It almost appears as though he didn't quite expect to. Or at least not with someone that could challenge him on it. As far as I know, Alan ("Welsh hifi") is still carefully combing through this thread, trying to figure out where the rebuttals are. I know I've written many, and you've written some. But yet somehow, between him, Ethan and everyone else who dumped on the Furutech devices or has otherwise added their comments here, not a single skeptic on this forum is able to find our rebuttals and properly challenge them.
Uncanny! And these are the guys who insist that facts and logic rule?? All I can say to that is if evil be the food of genius, there aren't many demons around.
But let's be generous and say that maybe Welsh hifi is still trying to figure out how to click the link I supplied for the really slow people (it was actually written to Ethan), who couldn't figure out where my rebuttal was. Or get the hint that I said it was my first post here. Or get the large arrows that you supplied for that post of mine, showing where it was. Or maybe he's found the damn thing, but he still needs help reading more than 3 words at a sitting. Anyone's guess, really. Ethan Winer realizes now that he is clearly out of his league talking about the Furutech demagnetizers, and he doesn't wish to embarass himself any further. He's still smarting from the embarassment he received after his major bail out on my test challenge last summer.
I'm going after Welsh hifi though, because of his grand display of arrogance I read from him at the beginning of this thread. That kind of got my dander up. That's the one where he made this appeal to authority to you. A truly pathetic attempt to intimidate you by stating he was "insulted" no less that you would question his knowledge of the Furutech devices, because he "allegedly" has all these years of experience in digital communications, and he's responsible for communicating with aliens by digital satellite in the CETI program. Or whatever. (rolling eyes). Turns out, after I queried him for 5 minutes, he couldn't even get the basic premise of how the device works right! (So much for his "75 years of experience in digital audio" or whatever).
Small wonder, since the man publicly admits that he finds it too taxing on his mental faculties to read through any rebuttal that's longer than 7 words! (So no danger of him reading any of this, LOL!) I don't know about you, but it feels like I'm trying to have a debate with 2 year old toddlers. Not at all rational thinking adults, capable of serious debate, and who can understand and recognize concepts like facts and evidence. And what's worse is the baby debaters are all on Ritalin, have the attention span of a Rheesus monkey, and I have to talk quickly in under 7 words, before their nappy time. Which then means they're off in dreamyland, and you can't talk to them until the Teletubbies wake up. I find myself looking up at the top of the page occasionally, in order to convince myself that I'm really at the Stereophile web forum, and not the Tots-R-Us web forum. I heard there was a global economic recession, but has it extended to an intellectual
recession as well? Well, truly, let's hope not.
But its telling that it isn't just Whiner that refuses to move the discussion forward, and has done his usual cowardly bit of running away from every refutation, every challenge made to him on the thread's subject. If we took all the zero contributors to this thread out right now, we'd find ourselves arguing with ourselves. Because even the thread's author, "Welsh hifi", as we have seen, refuses to debate the subject of his own thread! It almost appears as though he didn't quite expect to. Or at least not with someone that could challenge him on it. As far as I know, Alan ("Welsh hifi") is still carefully combing through this thread, trying to figure out where the rebuttals are. I know I've written many, and you've written some. But yet somehow, between him, Ethan and everyone else who dumped on the Furutech devices or has otherwise added their comments here, not a single skeptic on this forum is able to find our rebuttals and properly challenge them.
Uncanny! And these are the guys who insist that facts and logic rule?? All I can say to that is if evil be the food of genius, there aren't many demons around.
But let's be generous and say that maybe Welsh hifi is still trying to figure out how to click the link I supplied for the really slow people (it was actually written to Ethan), who couldn't figure out where my rebuttal was. Or get the hint that I said it was my first post here. Or get the large arrows that you supplied for that post of mine, showing where it was. Or maybe he's found the damn thing, but he still needs help reading more than 3 words at a sitting. Anyone's guess, really. Ethan Winer realizes now that he is clearly out of his league talking about the Furutech demagnetizers, and he doesn't wish to embarass himself any further. He's still smarting from the embarassment he received after his major bail out on my test challenge last summer.
I'm going after Welsh hifi though, because of his grand display of arrogance I read from him at the beginning of this thread. That kind of got my dander up. That's the one where he made this appeal to authority to you. A truly pathetic attempt to intimidate you by stating he was "insulted" no less that you would question his knowledge of the Furutech devices, because he "allegedly" has all these years of experience in digital communications, and he's responsible for communicating with aliens by digital satellite in the CETI program. Or whatever. (rolling eyes). Turns out, after I queried him for 5 minutes, he couldn't even get the basic premise of how the device works right! (So much for his "75 years of experience in digital audio" or whatever).
Small wonder, since the man publicly admits that he finds it too taxing on his mental faculties to read through any rebuttal that's longer than 7 words! (So no danger of him reading any of this, LOL!) I don't know about you, but it feels like I'm trying to have a debate with 2 year old toddlers. Not at all rational thinking adults, capable of serious debate, and who can understand and recognize concepts like facts and evidence. And what's worse is the baby debaters are all on Ritalin, have the attention span of a Rheesus monkey, and I have to talk quickly in under 7 words, before their nappy time. Which then means they're off in dreamyland, and you can't talk to them until the Teletubbies wake up. I find myself looking up at the top of the page occasionally, in order to convince myself that I'm really at the Stereophile web forum, and not the Tots-R-Us web forum. I heard there was a global economic recession, but has it extended to an intellectual
recession as well? Well, truly, let's hope not.
You're right, he's contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the subject of this thread. All he's tried to do here is talk about amp measurements, because that's in his comfort zone. This way he can feel like an "eggspert" (not that he isn't wrong about his silly amp theories as well, but it requires its own thread). When I complained about that, stretching the truth as far as he could take it, he tried to tell me that amp measurements was fair game, because the title was about snake oil. But then more recently, this famously hypocritical double-talker told someone else the thread's subject was about the Demagnetizers. So he *does* know what the thread is about, but refuses to debate the subject.
And not even because he has no opinion on it. After all, he was one of the confused fools arguing that the Furutech could not demagentize plastic (as though Furutech ever said they could). When I took him to task on that, and refuted his position, Whiner did what he has always been known for doing: ducking, dodging and running away from an honest debate or challenge. "Sorry, out of my comfort zone", he says! Somehow, knowing absolutely scratch-all about the Furutech devices, did not stop this poster boy for the tin-eared dogmatic reactionary trVth squad from writing a letter to the CEA. Ranting about his conspiracy theories that they are in secret cahoots with Furutech for giving the company an award for their demag units! Too funny! They probably used his shamefully insane letter to line a bird cage. Inevitably, every time you point out their logical fallacies and baseless, erroneous assumptions, one of these trVth squad members gets hysterical and
claims you're working for the Hifi Snobz Snake Oil Industry, or some nonsense like that. These people are beyond therapy, if you ask me.
You know all that, you wrote it. I just figured it was the length of the post that scared these guys and when they see more than one sentence follow another - in order - with a complete thought, they run from it. Kinda like a vampire and a crucifix. So, this might keep them off the trail for a while, Kemosabe. Maybe not, they like it when someone "copy/pastes" entire posts, I guess it makes them feel like they have said something even when they haven't.
You're right, he's contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the subject of this thread. All he's tried to do here is talk about amp measurements, because that's in his comfort zone. This way he can feel like an "eggspert" (not that he isn't wrong about his silly amp theories as well, but it requires its own thread). When I complained about that, stretching the truth as far as he could take it, he tried to tell me that amp measurements was fair game, because the title was about snake oil. But then more recently, this famously hypocritical double-talker told someone else the thread's subject was about the Demagnetizers. So he *does* know what the thread is about, but refuses to debate the subject.
And not even because he has no opinion on it. After all, he was one of the confused fools arguing that the Furutech could not demagentize plastic (as though Furutech ever said they could). When I took him to task on that, and refuted his position, Whiner did what he has always been known for doing: ducking, dodging and running away from an honest debate or challenge. "Sorry, out of my comfort zone", he says! Somehow, knowing absolutely scratch-all about the Furutech devices, did not stop this poster boy for the tin-eared dogmatic reactionary trVth squad from writing a letter to the CEA. Ranting about his conspiracy theories that they are in secret cahoots with Furutech for giving the company an award for their demag units! Too funny! They probably used his shamefully insane letter to line a bird cage. Inevitably, every time you point out their logical fallacies and baseless, erroneous assumptions, one of these trVth squad members gets hysterical and
claims you're working for the Hifi Snobz Snake Oil Industry, or some nonsense like that. These people are beyond therapy, if you ask me.
You know all that, you wrote it. I just figured it was the length of the post that scared these guys and when they see more than one sentence follow another - in order - with a complete thought, they run from it. Kinda like a vampire and a crucifix. So, this might keep them off the trail for a while, Kemosabe. Maybe not, they like it when someone "copy/pastes" entire posts, I guess it makes them feel like they have said something even when they haven't.
You're right, he's contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the subject of this thread. All he's tried to do here is talk about amp measurements, because that's in his comfort zone. This way he can feel like an "eggspert" (not that he isn't wrong about his silly amp theories as well, but it requires its own thread). When I complained about that, stretching the truth as far as he could take it, he tried to tell me that amp measurements was fair game, because the title was about snake oil. But then more recently, this famously hypocritical double-talker told someone else the thread's subject was about the Demagnetizers. So he *does* know what the thread is about, but refuses to debate the subject.
And not even because he has no opinion on it. After all, he was one of the confused fools arguing that the Furutech could not demagentize plastic (as though Furutech ever said they could). When I took him to task on that, and refuted his position, Whiner did what he has always been known for doing: ducking, dodging and running away from an honest debate or challenge. "Sorry, out of my comfort zone", he says! Somehow, knowing absolutely scratch-all about the Furutech devices, did not stop this poster boy for the tin-eared dogmatic reactionary trVth squad from writing a letter to the CEA. Ranting about his conspiracy theories that they are in secret cahoots with Furutech for giving the company an award for their demag units! Too funny! They probably used his shamefully insane letter to line a bird cage. Inevitably, every time you point out their logical fallacies and baseless, erroneous assumptions, one of these trVth squad members gets hysterical and
claims you're working for the Hifi Snobz Snake Oil Industry, or some nonsense like that. These people are beyond therapy, if you ask me.
You know all that, you wrote it. I just figured it was the length of the post that scared these guys and when they see more than one sentence follow another - in order - with a complete thought, they run from it. Kinda like a vampire and a crucifix. So, this might keep them off the trail for a while, Kemosabe. Maybe not, they like it when someone "copy/pastes" entire posts, I guess it makes them feel like they have said something even when they haven't.
Yikes, Michigan!
I kept wondering if I'd read some of those paragraphs before.
This:
"I haven't tested the Furutech, so I can't say it works this way or that way. I would have to assume it works as the company claims..."
Why would you assume that?
Maybe the crux of the disagreement is that some people don't trust it works as claimed.
I probably have a stronger tendency to be skeptical of claims made by companies selling goods.
___
In Ethan's defense, he is basically stating the he is also skeptical, to the extreme point of insisting on measurable data to back up a claim.
The 'data' that Furutech provided for LP's (not exactly part of this subject) were such that just leaving the machine on could produce those measurements, making it even more difficult to really discuss their findings.
For CD, there is not even that amount of 'evidence.'
I'm all for someone's ears allowing him to be the deciding factor. It's when he claims his ears are representative of my ears, others' ears, ears in general, or claims that since he hears something, his ears are special that I think we pass into the realm of the non-veracity.
I still wish the Ethan/Michigan Summit had worked out. I absolutely do not doubt his sincerity or yours.
Best regards, Michigan.
Thanks, Frog, That's an interesting video.
Did you guys enjoy it?
Oh, that's right. You guys deny You Tube exists.
Hey, your aluminum hats are slipping down.
Gee, ya'think?! "Extreme Snake Oil" sounds like they might give it a chance.
Buddha, I don't think anyone on this side of the "discussion" ever claimed what they hear is what you will hear - or what anyone else must hear.
But I'm becoming a bit amazed that what you and I read isn't remotely the same.
If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?
Are you planning a trip, LS?
I heard around the camp-fire you might have some firewood in your yard
Well, by golly, I do! See there, that just goes to prove not everything you read or hear is EXTREME SNAKE OIL!
Thank you, LS.
Speaking of fires, extreme snake oil seems to make for a good lighter fluid, eh?
Ba dump bump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv0pNLrloYg&feature=related
Extreme Snake Oil sounds like a Specialized mountain bike tire from the 90's....
And now, the More Extreme Snake Oil II!!!
For even more grip in the gnarly singletrack!
WOW! I haven't been around for a while and this thread has grown up out of the ground like a mushroom! And what a surprise. Someone has the temerity to dismiss the claims of a fruit loop product and they get absolutely roasted for it by.... the usual suspects. I don't think there's much hope of getting this runaway goat truck back on topic but I just can't resist trying.
Magnets have long been used in a variety of quack medicine. There's something elemental in the magic of a magnet. Do a quick search of medicinal magnets and you'll see what I mean. Many people claim manifold benefits from these products and will swear black and blue that a magnetic bracelet cured their arthritis or whatever. I would not argue with someone who made such claims, they may have experienced a placebo effect but to them, a cure has been made.
However, when someone tells me that they can not only de-magnetise vinyl but this process actually improves the music that is reproduced from a vinyl LP record I can most definitely call BS. Not Michael Fremer though. Even though his basic instincts would tell him that plastic cannot be demagnetized he says
If Furutech is using test equipment that is measuring very minute changes in magnetic flux, they should at least perform a statistically valid Measurement System Analysis and publish the data, and demonstrate that whatever changes they are detecting are real, and not changes from using the measurement system itself (this type of study is aka known as a Gage R&R).
Now you've gone and opened up a can of termites.
What is the mass of this tree and what is its rate of decent?
What is the rate of energy dissapation vs area of impact?
What is the level of background noise reletive to the level of impact signal?
What is the weighting scale used?
Of course it makes a sound, but is it significant?
Bottom line it for us, FC.
Anyone would be a fool if they ordered a product that did not have a money back guarantee. The market rids itself of those items that do not work as advertised.
You got "science" that you can read. Wooooooooo.
I got a money back guarantee.
Phhhht.
Hope we're not getting into one of those Schr
Actually, most trees are fairly decent, especially the red oak, the noble fir and the giant sequoia. An exception is the eucalyptus, which brazenly sheds its bark without remorse.
Back to the show....
What if a rubber tree falls in the forest, does it dampen the sound?
Or bounce like a super ball? The rubber tree and the ant.
OK, FC, let's start this again now that I have a few hours sleep to work on.
You've "proven" what is not really in dispute here. Aluminum is a material with low magnetic permeability. We all know that. So you've not really broken new ground here or in the larger picture of the operation of the Furutech device.
As I see your "argument" you've made a simple mistake that leads your thought proceess in the wrong and possibly a fatal direction. As May is fond of saying, you started with what you know to be "fact" and then decided how the results should come out. Hardly a scientific process, I would say.
How about if you begin from the results and work backward to try to find a solution to what has been heard?
First, let's dismiss the ever popular "placebo" effect. The reports about the efficacy of such products as the Furutech device have been numerous and have come from sources who should not be brushed aside as "the usual suspects". As I said earlier, the market tends to shed those products that cannot stand the scrutiny of close examination. The Furutech is now in its second genmeration and seems to be doing quite well for such an esoteric product, as do the similar devices from other companies. So the market would seem to suggest this is not a product to be so easily dismissed simply because we all do know aluminum is not a highly magnetically permeable material. But a CD disc is not just an aluminum disc. That would seem to be another flaw in the "logic" of the group you wish to join. So possibly there is something more at work here than just magnetism of aluminum, eh?
Instead of being so dismissive, let's give some credence to what has been said about the results and try to put our minds to deciding what to make of what we hear when we assume to know we are hearing the impossible.
I asked a few questions awhile back that everyone on your side of this "debate" absolutely ignored in favor of being buttheads and children. Would you kindly return to those questions and provide some responses to the "what if's" of this particular thread?
This one was addressed to Alan, who began this thread by saying he'd read about the Furutech device ...
Since there would appear to be some disagreement over just how this device performs its task, even among the few manufacturers who prouce similar devices ...
Since you were not part of the entire discussion here, that should be sufficient for a start.
If you would please, tell me what you think about those questions and, as I said, let's give the reviewer's their due - they are professionals at what they do and they have a reputation to consider when they make a statement.
No dismissive trash talk please and no placebo effect scapegoating.
Yep, and here is a statement one just made over on another thread...
There are a host of reasons why a reviewer would first decide to review such a controversial product and a host of reasons why they might endorse such controversy, because they are professional audio writers. I suspect there are also some professional audio writers who wouldn
That's not an answer to the questions posed. If you would, please, stick to the questions. Everyone other than May, Frog and JIMV have ignored those basic questions for some reason. Now, I am beginning to wonder what that reason might be.
What you've quoted from Kal is obviously true. That, however, does not prove what is being claimed is automatically not true. That would be yet another failure of "logic" should you allow that line of thinking to take you to your conclusion and most certainly a failure of thought if that is where you start when drawing to a conclusion. That is bias, plain and simple, not a scientific method of research. I thought we were relying on what we already knew of "science" here.
I find it cynical to think a reviewer would "endorse controversy". I assume it is the reviewer's duty as well as that of the editor to report what they have heard honestly and without bias to "controversy". As I asked in one of my questions, isn't reporting what is heard, without regard to "known" information, the basis for JGH starting Stereophile? Maybe you don't see it this way - I find that viewpoint cynical for the sake of easy cynicism, something that is all too abundant on this forum.
As I see this, the controversy is not in the review but in the response to the review.
Please answer the questions.
For me this is the only question. If folk hear a change but the explanation simply does not make sense, does that mean there is no change or that the explanation is wrong...
I suspect the later.
Hello everyone,
For an explanation of how the Furutech DeMag works, click over to:
www.scullcommunications.com/pressresources/furutech/furu_demag_update.pdf
The DeStat, a different product, removes static from various media and other objects.
www.scullcommunications.com/pressresources/furutech/furu_destat_release.pdf
Regards,
Jonathan Scull
This reminds me of a recent heated thread at the Martin-Logan forum. One guy was defending power "conditioner" products, and said to put a distortion analyzer on the AC power line to see how damaging "dirty" power is to audio playback. But this is the wrong place to measure! If you want to assess the value of a power product, you should measure what changes at the amplifier's output terminals.
--Ethan
Jonathan, what exactly is being shown in figures 1-4?
--Ethan
I mostly ignore what you write, so I likely missed that question. Here are some of my past projects:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/micpolar.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/U47-FET.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/St-Synth.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/meters.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/filters.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/distort.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/spectrum.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/gadgets.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/Synth-1.jpg
http://www.ethanwiner.com/Synth-2.jpg
http://www.ethanwiner.com/eko-EQ.jpg
http://www.ethanwiner.com/RecCtr-2.jpg
http://www.ethanwiner.com/analyze.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/concerto.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/AdultBeg.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/pc-setup.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/pctoday.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/BTU-Book.jpg
http://www.ethanwiner.com/p_pdq.htm
http://www.ethanwiner.com/p_qpro.htm
http://www.vimeo.com/user430196/videos
--Ethan
Jonathan,
There is no data presented in your link that demonstrates that your team have performed a statistically valid measurement system analysis for the measurement system you are using for measuring the magnetic flux.
Also, the results you have shown are "target" values without standard deviations. There is no way to determine if the changes shown in fig. 1-4 are statistically different if the variances (e.g. standard deviations) around the measurements are not provided. To present such "target" values w/o the attendant variances, are, acc. to the principles espoused by Edward Tufte, tantamount to obfuscation.
So, you admit to your own inexperience.
Now, does the other person have to reply with a resume, too?
Exactly.
Also, you never replied to my post a few days ago:
#54990 - 12/10/08 05:08 PM
Does that make sense? Do you agree?
Also, here's another 15 projects I did:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/ewsf2.html
--Ethan
Hi, I still disagree with post #54990.
The big four do not tell me what they will all be doing if feeding power at one frequency into one impedance while facing other, different impedances at other frequencies, simultaneously.
Just as the big four auto measurements will not tell me which car will best handle Watkins Glen or Lagnua Seca, the big four amp measurements are incomplete for many audio users.
There is alot of 'audio calculus' that goes on with driving a speaker, and the big four measurements may not give all the info needed to explain how an amp will behave in the 'continuous function' environment of audio playback.
Perhaps performing the 'big four' for each set of speakers would get you and I to agree on this!
Cheers.
Well, look at what I wrote. "I haven't tested the Furutech". That should answer your question. I know it's a 2nd job for most audiophiles to engage in assuming they know how an unusual or controversial audio product works, which they've never tested or listened to, but I'm not in the habit of doing that. I guess I just have too much respect for the principle of truth. (sigh). Which is why I stated all 3 hypotheses could be viable, or a combination thereof. Unless someone does further testing on the devices, further than Furutech went, we can't begin to know which. I'm not trying to stop people speculating. That's fine. It's when they take their speculations a step too far, and come to conclusions that irks me. Here's but one example of what happens when you do that:
One large idiot in the peanut gallery here comes by and "speculates" in this thread that I must be working for Furutech, because I haven't yet condemned their products. What's more, I haven't spouted ignorant and false factless claims about their product, so ergo, I must be employed by the company. And to leave no doubt what kind of an idiot he is, he demands that I reveal my Furutech "logo". (LOL! By this, I presume he means "affiliations"). Okay, that's one thing that happens when people are filled with ignorant prejudice and biases, based on a dangerous combination of lack of research and their general level of stupidity in life. But then perhaps the biggest idiot I have ever seen on an audio forum (and that's saying something counting how many I've been on), comes along and takes what the first idiot said, one far more dangerous step further, by saying this about me:
And if you can believe it, this true Lord Of The Imbeciles, is the same presumptious dork who once gave us a list of logical fallacies, as a defense in his argument against making logical fallacies. Despite having broken every possible logical fallacy by making the above "conclusion" in his logic (at the very least, the negative proof fallacy), based on nothing but his unproven vigorous assertions. As you see here, the Lord of the Imbeciles took the first idiot's prejudicial speculation about having "commercial interests" to upgrading the speculation to the conclusive statement of "dishonest fraud", "as well as full of shit about the facts". (Which is even ironic, since he realizes that I've proven *him* "full of shit about the facts" he's claimed for the Furutech, and the coward has been avoiding my challenge to him on that ever since, yet still remains in this thread to continue his personal attacks and other off topic comments. And of course, being the coward he is, he makes his accusations of "dishonest fraud" in a very roundabout way, so he can deny later, that it was about me).
This example is why I did not go further in assuming I knew how the Furutech devices work. I don't want presumptious imbeciles like the above, cowards running away from the truth, who understand nothing real of the world and have no respect whatsoever for what might be true, as my bedfellows and fellow travellers.
Then *at the very least*, they have to disprove the graphs shown in the 6 Moons review for the CD demagnetizer. I've not seen anyone do that yet, in this thread.
Stronger than whom? Most people I see here are quite skeptical of any unusual audio products or ideas. The status quo has a life of itself, and is an interesting social phenomenon if you study it. You don't bat an eye if Sony comes out with a new receiver, do you? Whenever a company is on the state of the art, or the bleeding edge, and produces an unusual idea, a product that looks at another face of the eternal audio problem, it challenges the status quo. It's the equivalent of "the weird kid in high school", that's too different to belong in a "clique". (Can you tell... I -was- that weird kid? LOL!). It has to prove itself a lot harder than the new Sony receiver, even though it may be just as valid. Except the co. is likely to have a lot less resources than Sony in which to do so.
There WAS measurable data to back up the Furutech claim on the CD demagnetizer. Show me where Ethan successfully refuted the data in this thread? I must have missed it. Because all I saw him do was get the very PREMISE of the product WRONG, and then make his argument (and conclusion!) against the product on a false premise. Which shows that ____ doesn't even have the sense to have gotten his basic facts on the product right, before calling it "fraudulent". When I pointed this out to him, and when I gave him enough information to challenge his wrongful assumptions about the Furutech, guess what he said to me? The same thing the CEA said to him, when this nutcase wrote them an angry letter spouting off his conspiracy theories about them being "dishonest frauds" and "full of shit" and in cahoots with Furutech, because they granted Furutech an award for their product. Which is: nothing. Nothing at all.
Let's get one thing straight here: Ethan Winer is a dogmatic ideologue, a pathological skeptic. That means he has no intention of ever arguing anything in an intellectually honest manner, or progressing on his ignorance about audio. We have seen several examples in this thread alone (ie. the debates between me and him, or SAS and him), and there are hundreds of examples elsewhere on Stereophile. So I find in your defense of Ethan, that important fact is missing. He's certainly not interested in knowing the "truth" about the Furutech devices. He's never even tried one for pete's sake! Any more than a preacher is interested in knowing the "truth" about whether God exists or not. Professional skeptics like Ethan Winer have made audio a religion. Both I and SAS have made various challenges to what he has argued in this thread, and he has gone to extreme lengths to avoid being challenged on his beliefs, or in **accepting that his arguments have been defeated**. So if he won't even say he was wrong in his initial claims about amp and cap measurements, you can bet that he will NEVER say he was wrong about the Furutech, and go on to praise the product. No matter if you waved 100 peer-reviewed articles in his face proving him wrong. No more than a priest would turn around and approve of Satan, if you somehow proved the guy just got a bad rap all these years. Nuff said!
Haven't seen that, so I don't know how valid that assumption is. My presumption was that the measurements shown in the 6 moons review of the larger Furutech unit, related to the disc itself. So either there was a change in the level of magnetism in the disc itself (with the machine off), or there wasn't.
So that would mean everyone has equal listening skill. Couldn't disagree more, of course. But I wish it were so, because then we could move a lot further a lot quicker. There's also the problem that a device can "prove" that it's valid, but you don't hear any difference. There are scores of people who claim they can't even hear differences in amplifiers, and yet I think there is enough hard proof that amplifiers should sound different. So that would suggest that either evidence is overrated, or people have different degrees of listening skill.
Thanks, I too wish it would have worked out, as it would have resolved a lot of issues we'd been having. I don't know how anyone of objectivity who followed that could avoid doubting Ethan's sincerity, particularly when he ignored my one and only test design proposal throughout the entire debacle, but I'll assume you're running for president in 2012 (of the Hifi Snobs Audio Community), and accept your response as it stands.
Frog im assuming you hold a political or municipal position.
No way an engineer writes so much and says so little
Gawrsh, thanks gee! I luv tha way the hamster falls off of tha piano and stuff! Har har hee!
Hamster on a piano
LOL! Well first of all, that post wasn't addressed to you, and it wasn't for you. The only part of that addressed to you and anyone like you, was to go and watch the hamster on a piano video. I'm sure that will amuse you more.
Secondly, how would you know what I'm saying in that message, since you haven't shown the intellectual capacity to read beyond the first 7 words of any post you see? No my misguided friend, you're the one who has said so little in this thread, as evidenced by your continual content-free ad hominem remarks above. Question is, what are you still doing here, if you have nothing to say on the subject of the thread you yourself started?
You're the same guy who has avoided debating the very topic of this thread you started, the guy who condemed the Furutechs as "extreme snake oil" based on your erroneous understanding of how the device works, and when challenged on that, complained that every response you received was too complicated for your brain to process. Even after one opponent told you that you could simply try to respond to any of his questions, you rejected the entire refutation as being too long and complicated for what little grey matter you apparently have, for debating. So if debating your own BS is too hard for a fake expert in digital audio, then stop contributing nothing to this thread by complaining about how reading makes your brain hurt, and go watch hamsters eating popcorn. No really, go on. Scat. Shoo. You're missing the show, your friends are already there.
If measured at the speaker terminals, why not? More to the point, if you think there's more than just those four, what else is there?
Edit: A null test can be used to assess broadband noise, or highly dynamic content like big band or orchestra music, or whatever source you want. So you null the amp's input and output, then assess the Mighty Four on the residual that remains.
Do you agree this addresses your concerns above?
--Ethan
Ah, the Bob Carver method!
Sute, Ethan, that would be great. Can you point me to how Pioneer provided you with that info when you bought their product purely by looking at the specs?
Hi Buddha, inexperienced, yes you are correct. Of Ethan's links, only 8 circuits are actually audio related. The others are pictures and computer related and could easily be from schematics. Of those 8, one is for microphone polarity which could have been simply copied.
I say this because of the very poor design of Ethan's FET microphone preamplifier.
Let's just check out Ethan's U47 mic schematic.
First, this circuit is so simple that any diy book would contain such a schematic. In fact, a high school student could design such a simple circuit. Hardly of any high end design as we shall see. Secondly, it certainly will not perform nearly as well as the original designed tube circuit. It is truly an amateur's circuit.
First, the drain resistance (Rd) of the FET is at least in the mid hundreds of thousands of ohms, vs approx 5.5k plate
resistance using a 6cw4 tube (and using updated power supply). RL is 100k. Total load impedance is approx 80k ohms. The output impedance thus rises from approx 5.2k ohms to approx 80k ohms that the output transformer sees
by switching to the FET. Quite a change.
Using a FET substantially increases the output impedance the transformer sees, as just mentioned, and substantially reduces the damping factor. So if there is any mid to high frequency resonances or peaks created (which there are) by the output transformer/capacitance combination, the resonances/peaks will not be damped nearly as well using the FET circuit. (With amplifier specs, objectivists want the damping factor as high as possible. But in this case the damping factor has been reduced by some 14 fold using the FET. The circuit becomes much more of a current source than voltage source.
Secondly, the high frequency response is substantially reduced. First we need to add the output transformer (opt) load, let's say 100k ohms (lower and the distortion rises rapidly and substantially). So the total output impedance of the FET, RL and opt impedance is approx 40k ohms. Higher opt load gives
even higher load reactance and lowers high frequency response.
The FET Ethan lists has a miller capacitance of approx 60pf. How much more capacitance presented to the load depends upon stray capacitance, the output transformer primary winding capacitance to ground, capacitance presented from the secondary reflected back to primary windings. This capacitance is easily in the hundreds of pf.
Let's conservative say there is 200pf total capacitance the output transformer presents back to the
output of the tube. 200pf plus 60pf is 260pf. The -6db point is approximately 95khz, -3db response
is down approx 40khz. -1db down at approximately 20khz. Even at 10khz, the response will be down
a few tenths of a db. Ok for speech but hardly optimum. And these figures are using a very conservative load capacitance.
Then there is the poor electrolytic source bypass capacitor.
And I have not even discussed the power supply design, which is pretty poor itself.
Take care.
PS. I have updated the specs in my next post. I somewhat estimated way to high of frequency response for -3db F2.
this bashing Ethan stuff is getting old, guy. You take any and every opportunity to preach your anti-Winer sermon.. take it to a private room, eh? You are a professional, correct? If so, how about acting like it.
x2 for ncdrawl's post.
sasaudio, IMO you are making yourself look bad with this incessant Ethan bashing.
I have been to your sight, had interest in your gear but your posts have discouraged me from wanting to give your products a listen.
Uncharacteristically for me I don't mean to offend :-)
Just wanted to give you my honest impression.
Another two pages wasted!
Thank you, Winer. You're the kid in class who thinks everyone else is as smart as they need to be and isn't interested in any of them getting any more intelligent by learning something new.
Anyone interested in answering some basic questions? They're back a few pages. Shall we get this thread back to the original topic?
Hi NC and Tom,
I presented an analysis of the circuit and its obvious shortcomings using basic electronics. I would assume you also want full honest disclosure since "your" post requests all of us to disclose any affiliation with companies etc. If we are going to be open, what is the problem with presenting the specs gentlemen? You are objectivists and believe in specs, right? Could not Ethan calclulate or measure the specs?
Take care.
(ps.) I was actually quite high with respect to the frequency, -3db point, since I was estimating off the top of my head in the previous post. I have always measured the specs in my lab since measurements include actual stray capacitance. Using the formula found in
College textbook, Semiconductor and Tube Electronics, an Introduction, Page 278,
F2 (-3db breakpoint) = 1/6.28 X capacitance X (R equivalent), or
F2 = .159/ capacitance (260pf) X 40,000 ohms = 15.2khz for -3db (Phase shift is 45 Degrees), -1db at 8khz.
Even at half the OPT capacitance, 130pf, -3db would be 30khz and -1db would be 16khz or so.
Using the 6cw4 would increase those frequencies by a factor of at least 10 since the plate resistance is so low.
I'll second that. All this character-disparagement is unproductive.
Not to mention boring.
>>> "All this character-disparagement is unproductive. Not to mention boring." <<<
I absolutely agree. I fully appreciate that people have the luxury of freedom of speech but can I point out that Ethan started some of the character disparagement with the publication of a letter to CEA insidiously inferring 'fraud', then inferring that the heads of Furutech 'if they were not idiots, then they must be dishonest', with Buddha infilling with accusing Michael Fremer of "specific bullshit that you parrot courtesy of a marketing firm? Did you do anything other than memorize what Furutech told you ?" and then going on to suggest that if so many people can HEAR improvements in their sound, then it must be because they are "primitive audiophiles, unable to sit and relax and really 'hear' their systems without the aid of certain potions and elixirs (or props, talismen, rituals). Followed by Welsh Hi Fi calling the demagnetising of CD 'treatment' as "Extreme Snake Oil".
Are you suggesting, Stephen, that everyone else keep silent whilst Ethan, Buddha, Welsh Hi Fi et al disparage others ?
I only entered the Stereophile Discussion Forum a few years back after reading Buddha's 'posting':-
>>> "The Peter Belts of this world are sly, like the serpent. They are driven off, but then always find ways to slither back into to hobby to suck the green life blood from the uninitiated.. We, as ethical audiophiles, have a duty to remember the past, so that others aren't doomed to repeat it." <<<
The inference being (obviously) that HE (Buddha) and fellow audiophiles were the ethical ones.
I came to the decision then that "Enough is enough" !!!
OF COURSE people are free to disagree with others. It is the manner in which they choose to disagree which is extremely objectionable. Nor can it be dismissed simply as 'boring'.
Regards to you,
May Belt.
I like you idea of 'a new start' on this subject.
One HAS to start at the end - at what is being observed - because of WHAT is happening and not what one would LIKE to happen - PARTICULARLY if you are a 'professional in audio'!!
We have, by now, a list of reports, from (as you say) numerous people, again (as you say) -
>>> "let's give the reviewer's their due - they are professionals at what they do and they have a reputation to consider when they make a statement" <<< -
All describing how their sound has been improved by variously
1) By colouring the edge of a CD,
2) By changing the colour of the printing on the label side of a CD.
Just by way of adding to the history. I have already described Laszlo Darvas's (editor of the Hungarian Hi Fi Magazine) experiences with the different colours of the printing on CDs giving different sounds. But, much earlier, in 1988, Christopher Breunig (the Musical Editor of the British Hi Fi News) had also experimented by removing all the coloured ink from the label side of a CD with lighter fuel. His comments afterwards were "the CD so treated - i.e the 'Mass in C-minor' - opened up the sound, losing stridency, sharply defining the St John's acoustic halo behind the singers."
(Are you reading this Welsh Hi Fi ?? With your comment "Binary information does not have any quality at all, it is either 1 or 0. These signals do not have imagery.) SO, in your knowledgeable opinion, Christopher Breunig COULD NOT have heard a better defined St John's acoustic halo behind the singers ????)
3) By applying a chemical to the Label side of a CD,
4) By cryogenically freezing a CD,
5) By applying a demagnetiser to a CD,
6) Or by doing the latest - aiming a hair dryer containing tourmaline balls at a CD.
Welsh Hi Fi's stance is "I know all about digital processing. You cannot change the 0s and 1s once encoded on a CD. SO, that means that such as demagnetising a CD CANNOT change the sound. SO, that means that it must be regarded as Extreme Snake Oil !!!!"
Ethan's contribution is to insinuate that such things are 'fraud', 'dishonesty', or bullshit !!
Both do not believe that there are any changes taking place with the sound, so therefore there is nothing to investigate !!
Let us have a look at some recent history on the subject.
In 2006, on the subject of demagnetising a CD, Buddha commented that he was 'dubious'
Michael Fremer replied to Buddha :-
>>> "2) I don't blame you for being dubious. I was too.
4) Improved performance doesn't mean you were complaining before. I can tell you 100 reasons why recorded music never sounds as good as live but we love our recordings. When something comes along that improves the sound, it doesn't mean you were withholding something Before. "<<<
Michael's comment "Something comes along that improves the sound" parallels how I describe it i.e "That you are not aware that things were not quite right UNTIL you HEAR it be MORE right." THAT is the point where you have to start investigating. There has to be some explanation for whatever you did which caused the sound to be MORE right.
Some people may not like the tone of the reviewers in 6 moons about their experiences with the demagnetiser but their experiences just mirror other people's similar experiences !!! How many 'other people's experiences' does one need ? Is EVERY ONE 's experiences going to be dismissed ?
The link given previously mentions Lloyd Walker also trying to work out an explanation
>>> "[A recent conversation with Lloyd Walker who has authored a hand-held version of the DeMag shed light on this designer's ideas as to why demagnetizing CDs works. He claims that it's really destaticing which destresses the juncture between metal and plastic. "Ever notice how warm a CD gets after play?", he asked me. Plastic and metal expand at different rates when heated. It's the resultant material stress which destaticing minimizes and which causes the audible improvements. At least according to Walker - Ed.]" <<<
Demagnetising is doing something but is it doing something other than magnetic ? IF it is doing something, something which changes the sound but does not change the 0s and 1s, then WHAT is it doing ?
Similarly. What is colouring the edge of CDs doing ? IF it is doing something, something which changes the sound but does not change the 0s and 1s, then WHAT is it doing.? Even John Atkinson, when confirming that HE found that colouring the edge of CDs gave him improvements in the sound commented "As to how it works, don't ask."
Similarly, using such as the Nordost chemical on the Label side of CDs is claimed to give improvements in the sound ! IF it is doing something, something which changes the sound but does not change the 0s and 1s, then WHAT is it doing ?
Similarly, cryogenically freezing a CD gives an improvement in the sound. IF it is doing something, something which changes the sound but does not change the 0s and 1s, then WHAT is it doing ?
You just cannot dismiss people's experiences from trying all or some of those things. SOMETHING is going on which needs investigating and NOT dismissing them outright as "Extreme Snake Oil", or Bullshit !!!
To be continued in Part Two.
Regards,
May Belt.
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