Quote:
He would sometimes bypass the crossover and drive the woofer directly to confirm his findings.

And his findings would be what? That inductors also influence the sound quality of the circuit? I would hope most of us are aware of the improvements to be gained by using air core inductors rather than iron core in critical locations within a filter.

I would say most DIY'ers are of the opinion that caps are more important than inductors in their destructive effects on sound quality. Possible reasons for this could be the variations possible in caps that isn't there in inductors and how the devices are used within the circuit. No DIY article that I am aware of glosses over the importance of parts selection, they just find more value in concentrating on certain parts with the largest perceived influence to garner the most words.

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There have been several papers documenting the gross saturation distortion in most iron core inductors. Yet many manufacturers continue to use them, even several top names.

Aside from bi-amping, which is the best solution, inductors are unavoidable in loudspeaker crossovers. The good news is that line level circuits these days (can / should) use simulated inductors made with op-amps to avoid all the problems you listed.

--Ethan

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He would sometimes bypass the crossover and drive the woofer directly to confirm his findings.

And his findings would be what? That inductors also influence the sound quality of the circuit? I would hope most of us are aware of the improvements to be gained by using air core inductors rather than iron core in critical locations within a filter.

I would say most DIY'ers are of the opinion that caps are more important than inductors in their destructive effects on sound quality. Possible reasons for this could be the variations possible in caps that isn't there in inductors and how the devices are used within the circuit. No DIY article that I am aware of glosses over the importance of parts selection, they just find more value in concentrating on certain parts with the largest perceived influence to garner the most words.

Or they could be wrong:
http://www.members.aol.com/pjay99site/captest2.htm

Pete B.

Quote:
Or they could be wrong:

Sure, we could all be wrong about everything and Rod Serling was the only one who got it. We could all be little creatures swimming in the bloodstream of some other being. Or, we might not exist at all. Or, we could be sent to the corn field for pissing off the little kid.

Or, ...

I'm afraid introducing blind tests into the discussion will only bring us back a discussion of the validity of blind tests. You can certainly find anything you wish on the internet to support virtually any claim you wish to make. That is a problem of the internet.

I'm not saying your link isn't valid, just that it can raise even more questions than it answers. Heck, even JA has heard low bit rate music samples sound good and he was certain that couldn't happen. Rules are made to be broken even when the rule broke another rule.

Quote:

Quote:
Or they could be wrong:

Sure, we could all be wrong about everything and Rod Serling was the only one who got it. We could all be little creatures swimming in the bloodstream of some other being. Or, we might not exist at all. Or, we could be sent to the corn field for pissing off the little kid.

Or, ...

I'm afraid introducing blind tests into the discussion will only bring us back a discussion of the validity of blind tests. You can certainly find anything you wish on the internet to support virtually any claim you wish to make. That is a problem of the internet.

I'm not saying your link isn't valid, just that it can raise even more questions than it answers. Heck, even JA has heard low bit rate music samples sound good and he was certain that couldn't happen. Rules are made to be broken even when the rule broke another rule.

The fact is that these were people who made strong claims that there were dramatic differences between caps, obvious, night and day differences. They all heard it, in fact they each seemed to up the ante as to how different they were. So why did all those dramatic, obvious differences vanish when tested in a controlled fashion? Certainly if it was psychological pressure it might be more difficult but if the differences were obvious they should still see a definitive outcome. They did not, a $.49 NP electrolytic against a boutique poly costing 10 to 100 times more and these same people could not hear a statistically significant difference.

Let me add that if people are going to claim (not saying I agree with this claim) that there is some obscure unmeasureable difference between caps we should at least make an effort to match the differences that we do understand, capacitance value and ESR. They did not even do this. I have found that I can hear very slight differences between capacitors when the value and ESR are not matched but it is very difficult - assuming same rated values of course. This is not surprising as there would be measurable differences.

Yes, I'm familiar with the study of epistemology as I minored in philosophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
However, I do not agree with your smoke screen. The fact is that we do know, the issue is a matter of psychology as it relates to belief systems and ego as I see it.

Pete B.

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Quote:

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Or they could be wrong:

Sure, we could all be wrong about everything and Rod Serling was the only one who got it. We could all be little creatures swimming in the bloodstream of some other being. Or, we might not exist at all. Or, we could be sent to the corn field for pissing off the little kid.

Or, ...

I'm afraid introducing blind tests into the discussion will only bring us back a discussion of the validity of blind tests. You can certainly find anything you wish on the internet to support virtually any claim you wish to make. That is a problem of the internet.

I'm not saying your link isn't valid, just that it can raise even more questions than it answers. Heck, even JA has heard low bit rate music samples sound good and he was certain that couldn't happen. Rules are made to be broken even when the rule broke another rule.

The fact is that these were people who made strong claims that there were dramatic differences between caps, obvious, night and day differences. They all heard it, in fact they each seemed to up the ante as to how different they were. So why did all those dramatic, obvious differences vanish when tested in a controlled fashion? Certainly if it was psychological pressure it might be more difficult but if the differences were obvious they should still see a definitive outcome. They did not, a $.49 NP electrolytic against a boutique poly costing 10 to 100 times more and these same people could not hear a statistically significant difference.

Let me add that if people are going to claim (not saying I agree with this claim) that there is some obscure unmeasureable difference between caps we should at least make an effort to match the differences that we do understand, capacitance value and ESR. They did not even do this. I have found that I can hear very slight differences between capacitors when the value and ESR are not matched but it is very difficult - assuming same rated values of course. This is not surprising as there would be measurable differences.

Yes, I'm familiar with the study of epistemology as I minored in philosophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
However, I do not agree with your smoke screen. The fact is that we do know, the issue is a matter of psychology as it relates to belief systems and ego as I see it.

Pete B.

If this link were presented in class, one would be laughed out, if not kicked out, and given an F.

1) Who is the author of the article? Is it Pjay's? Is it you?

2) Under what conditions? Virtually none are listed. SPL loudness, tonal balance, echo problems, etc are not mentioned. What kind of music was used? Was it repeated over and over?

3) "we rented a hotel room". Anyone ever been to CES and "THE SHOW" and heard those rooms? Pretty bad folks. Ties in with tonal balance, echo problems.

4)

Quote:
This was really hard I was sure I could hear it for a while but then lost it.

Sounds like the brain, "ear" are fatiguing. The more playings, the more fatigue and the more everything sounds the same.

This is information the medical community understands but the AB guys seem to miss.
The more repetitions the more the test become skewed in favor of no sonic differences because of fatigue.

(For another simple example, suppose car A gets better mileage than car B. The numbers/results prove it. Then we find out later that car B had the brakes slightly applied all the time. See how the numbers/results can be skewed.)

4) Only one example? Not many compared to all the other examples listed above.

As one can see, there are major problems with the link provided.

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Or they could be wrong:

Sure, we could all be wrong about everything and Rod Serling was the only one who got it. We could all be little creatures swimming in the bloodstream of some other being. Or, we might not exist at all. Or, we could be sent to the corn field for pissing off the little kid.

Or, ...

I'm afraid introducing blind tests into the discussion will only bring us back a discussion of the validity of blind tests. You can certainly find anything you wish on the internet to support virtually any claim you wish to make. That is a problem of the internet.

I'm not saying your link isn't valid, just that it can raise even more questions than it answers. Heck, even JA has heard low bit rate music samples sound good and he was certain that couldn't happen. Rules are made to be broken even when the rule broke another rule.

The fact is that these were people who made strong claims that there were dramatic differences between caps, obvious, night and day differences. They all heard it, in fact they each seemed to up the ante as to how different they were. So why did all those dramatic, obvious differences vanish when tested in a controlled fashion? Certainly if it was psychological pressure it might be more difficult but if the differences were obvious they should still see a definitive outcome. They did not, a $.49 NP electrolytic against a boutique poly costing 10 to 100 times more and these same people could not hear a statistically significant difference.

Let me add that if people are going to claim (not saying I agree with this claim) that there is some obscure unmeasureable difference between caps we should at least make an effort to match the differences that we do understand, capacitance value and ESR. They did not even do this. I have found that I can hear very slight differences between capacitors when the value and ESR are not matched but it is very difficult - assuming same rated values of course. This is not surprising as there would be measurable differences.

Yes, I'm familiar with the study of epistemology as I minored in philosophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
However, I do not agree with your smoke screen. The fact is that we do know, the issue is a matter of psychology as it relates to belief systems and ego as I see it.

Pete B.

If this link were presented in class, one would be laughed out, if not kicked out, and given an F.

1) Who is the author of the article? Is it Pjay's? Is it you?

2) Under what conditions? Virtually none are listed. SPL loudness, tonal balance, echo problems, etc are not mentioned. What kind of music was used? Was it repeated over and over?

3) "we rented a hotel room". Anyone ever been to CES and "THE SHOW" and heard those rooms? Pretty bad folks. Ties in with tonal balance, echo problems.

4)

Quote:
This was really hard I was sure I could hear it for a while but then lost it.

Sounds like the brain, "ear" are fatiguing. The more playings, the more fatigue and the more everything sounds the same.

This is information the medical community understands but the AB guys seem to miss.
The more repetitions the more the test become skewed in favor of no sonic differences because of fatigue.

(For another simple example, suppose car A gets better mileage than car B. The numbers/results prove it. Then we find out later that car B had the brakes slightly applied all the time. See how the numbers/results can be skewed.)

4) Only one example? Not many compared to all the other examples listed above.

This is the second time a worthless link has been presented.

No I am not Pjay, and yes, Pjay is the author. Let me also point out that unlike you he does not sell audio products and has no financial interest in selling caps or equipment. I expected that a few people would attack this nice group of DIY people. They are audio and music enthusiasts.

Amusing that around the time this hit the internet some audio snob attacked Pjay assuming that he did not listen to live music regularly and this would be just one reason to discredit him. The fact is that Pjay's wife is a vocal coach and he hears live music quite regularly LOL!!!! They also attend live events regularly. So, make no assumptions.

Yes, I'm sure that only your data is good and that you will continue to attempt to discredit others with long winded BS.

It is unfortunate that Pjay did not provide more detail about the experiment. I seemed to recall there being more there at his site, he might have taken it down. It was discussed on the old Madisound board but was never archived when they went to their new format, unfortunately.

By the way, ever hear of the Hafler Null test? Regarding your claim: "Preamplifier/ICs are the only pieces that can be checked for true accuracy."

Pete B.

Hey, Pete, you don't have to copy the entire post you are responding to. We get the idea when you just copy the parts you wish to respond to. Like this;

Quote:
However, I do not agree with your smoke screen.

I assume you're talking to me, somehow suggesting I am throwing up a smoke screen when all I did was respond to your post. And once again we don't agree. That's fine, Pete, if you believe DBT's with multiple listeners seated around the room happens to be the way to test audio components in a rented hotel room, then more power to you. As the author of the article states, "Power listening is really hard." Even more so when you don't know the room, the system, the guy sitting in the sweet spot a few chairs down or just how long that calamari from the hotel's room service had been sitting out.

Not all of us believe even well controlled DBT's expose those qualities necessary to say one way or the other what is being observed. To me DBT's test the listener and not the component. Beating this into the ground will only result in a thread which is about DBT's and not capacitors.

Quote:
Let me add that if people are going to claim (not saying I agree with this claim) that there is some obscure unmeasureable difference between caps we should at least make an effort to match the differences that we do understand, capacitance value and ESR. They did not even do this.

You seem to agree this was a pretty lousy test. So where's the "controlled fashion" you mention?

Things have disappeared off the web page?

Pete, I think this might not be the one article you hold out as proof of anything other than how to conduct a lousy test and then write an even worse article about that lousy test.

So far I've not seen anyone suggest the effect of capacitors on the sound of a circuit is due to "some obscure unmeasureable difference between caps".

Quote:
I expected that a few people would attack this nice group of DIY people.

And I've not see anyone "attack" the nice group of DIY people. (Really?! DIY people?)

You're kind of jumping the gun there, Pete. The major article linked to in this thread provides some definitive tests (now almost 30 years old) which lead you to believe caps make a difference. Or, at least, those articles make me believe caps make a difference. As do the times when I've swapped caps and know what I hear afterwards.

Pete, what we've got here is one test with controlled conditions performed by respected members of the audio community vs. some bozos in a rented hotel room. You take your pick who to believe and I'll take mine.

I'm not going with the bozos.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

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Or they could be wrong:

Sure, we could all be wrong about everything and Rod Serling was the only one who got it. We could all be little creatures swimming in the bloodstream of some other being. Or, we might not exist at all. Or, we could be sent to the corn field for pissing off the little kid.

Or, ...

I'm afraid introducing blind tests into the discussion will only bring us back a discussion of the validity of blind tests. You can certainly find anything you wish on the internet to support virtually any claim you wish to make. That is a problem of the internet.

I'm not saying your link isn't valid, just that it can raise even more questions than it answers. Heck, even JA has heard low bit rate music samples sound good and he was certain that couldn't happen. Rules are made to be broken even when the rule broke another rule.

The fact is that these were people who made strong claims that there were dramatic differences between caps, obvious, night and day differences. They all heard it, in fact they each seemed to up the ante as to how different they were. So why did all those dramatic, obvious differences vanish when tested in a controlled fashion? Certainly if it was psychological pressure it might be more difficult but if the differences were obvious they should still see a definitive outcome. They did not, a $.49 NP electrolytic against a boutique poly costing 10 to 100 times more and these same people could not hear a statistically significant difference.

Let me add that if people are going to claim (not saying I agree with this claim) that there is some obscure unmeasureable difference between caps we should at least make an effort to match the differences that we do understand, capacitance value and ESR. They did not even do this. I have found that I can hear very slight differences between capacitors when the value and ESR are not matched but it is very difficult - assuming same rated values of course. This is not surprising as there would be measurable differences.

Yes, I'm familiar with the study of epistemology as I minored in philosophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
However, I do not agree with your smoke screen. The fact is that we do know, the issue is a matter of psychology as it relates to belief systems and ego as I see it.

Pete B.

If this link were presented in class, one would be laughed out, if not kicked out, and given an F.

1) Who is the author of the article? Is it Pjay's? Is it you?

2) Under what conditions? Virtually none are listed. SPL loudness, tonal balance, echo problems, etc are not mentioned. What kind of music was used? Was it repeated over and over?

3) "we rented a hotel room". Anyone ever been to CES and "THE SHOW" and heard those rooms? Pretty bad folks. Ties in with tonal balance, echo problems.

4)

Quote:
This was really hard I was sure I could hear it for a while but then lost it.

Sounds like the brain, "ear" are fatiguing. The more playings, the more fatigue and the more everything sounds the same.

This is information the medical community understands but the AB guys seem to miss.
The more repetitions the more the test become skewed in favor of no sonic differences because of fatigue.

(For another simple example, suppose car A gets better mileage than car B. The numbers/results prove it. Then we find out later that car B had the brakes slightly applied all the time. See how the numbers/results can be skewed.)

4) Only one example? Not many compared to all the other examples listed above.

This is the second time a worthless link has been presented.

No I am not Pjay, and yes, Pjay is the author. Let me also point out that unlike you he does not sell audio products and has no financial interest in selling caps or equipment. I expected that a few people would attack this nice group of DIY people. They are audio and music enthusiasts.

Amusing that around the time this hit the internet some audio snob attacked Pjay assuming that he did not listen to live music regularly and this would be just one reason to discredit him. The fact is that Pjay's wife is a vocal coach and he hears live music quite regularly LOL!!!! They also attend live events regularly. So, make no assumptions.

Yes, I'm sure that only your data is good and that you will continue to attempt to discredit others with long winded BS.

It is unfortunate that Pjay did not provide more detail about the experiment. I seemed to recall there being more there at his site, he might have taken it down. It was discussed on the old Madisound board but was never archived when they went to their new format, unfortunately.

By the way, ever hear of the Hafler Null test? Regarding your claim: "Preamplifier/ICs are the only pieces that can be checked for true accuracy."

Pete B.

Funny you say you're not attacking, then you call them Bozos. I certainly know who the Bozo is, ever hear of projection? Is name calling allowed on this forum? You should be banned being the one who claims others are not worthy of being here.

Wrong, wrong, wrong ... the test was a good one. The write up as it stands now is just a summary. All involved in this test got a lot of flack from people who didn't like the outcome. Many were probably shills for the boutique capacitor companies. There was one vendor of such capacitors who came on the Madisound board claiming to be a university professor that was caught. He was using multiple nics, and not doing a very good job covering his tracks. I know what brand the boutique cap was, you'll have to do your own research to find out.

You people don't even look into who you're talking about. Pjay, and Bob Cordell have gone to many meets around the country doing demonstrations. Did you go to their room at HE 2007, that handsome fellow in the front row full right is me, LOL! Pjay was there as a host and the room was sponsored by Stereophile as I recall, LOL! Watch out who you call a bozo, follow this link to read about it and note that they were invited by JA of Stereophile: http://blog.stereophile.com/he2007/051507works/

You all know who Bob Cordell is now don't you, author of "Another View of TIM" published in Audio many years ago?
The professor that I studied audio engineering under stated flatly that TIM was just SID renamed, not a new discovery as it was known about for many years if not decades. He confirmed Cordell's view.

Anyway, not going to engage in defending your cheap shots against people you don't even know. One of the fellows organizing the capacitor test is a PHD Economist and a damn good speaker designer.

Pete B.

Quote:
There is no doubt capacitors have a sound.

In what context though? For example, a low-ESR capacitor will improve the ripple performance of a switching regulator compared to a garden variety output cap. By the same token, linear regulators will often oscillate or be marginally unstable when low-ESR capacitors are used at their output. What does this say, then, about "capacitor sound"?.

I'd say the whole concept of "[insert device here] sound" is nonsense. There is no "device sound", only the sound of circuits that use the devices. The same device that improves the performance of one type of circuit can cause another type of circuit to degrade or even become non-functional as in the example I've given above.

The kind of muddled thinking that comes up with concepts like "resistor sound" or "capacitor sound" is the same thing that causes, for example, incompetent "modders" to do stuff like putting polypropylene capacitors at the output of linear voltage regulators and then proclaim the resulting marginally stable circuits as "sonically superior". There is quite a bit of this kind of incompetence going on in high end audio. Just look at Audio Circle for examples. Some of these incompetents even have their own forums there.

Audio cirlce and other places have a lota funny stuff. On one of the sites, one nudnick, says how to make wires, with his "recipe"!!! He claims to hear the difference in Teflon insulation, PVC or other types, and he can hear wall outlets, different BRANDS sound different!!! And he has a folloing of a group of Nudnicks squared that think he knows what he is talking about, they ask him how to do stuff....Did you know a P&S wall outlet SOUNDS better than a simple Leviton? They HEAR it, like others hear can hear a capacitor.....What you will hear is a poorly implemetetd ckt using whatever components that ain't working correctly together........And I'm sure one BRAND of metal film resistor "sounds" better than other's right? Even though they have the same electrical specs. Try changing out parts in your tv, if you can improve the picture, those electrons don't know of what they are doing.

So, what is the consensus thus far on whether or not replacing capacitors is a necessity or not?.

Pete, knock it off with the whole page "copy/paste". OK?

Quote:
Funny you say you're not attacking, then you call them Bozos. I certainly know who the Bozo is, ever hear of projection? Is name calling allowed on this forum? You should be banned being the one who claims others are not worthy of being here.

So you're the excitable type, eh, Pete? Sorry, from the link you provided the article is about a bunch of "bozos" in a rented hotel room. If you're trying to trick someone into something, Pete, that's not fair.

Quote:
Wrong, wrong, wrong ... the test was a good one. The write up as it stands now is just a summary.

Not as it appears in the linked article it was not. If "the test was a good one", then you should have linked to a better write up.

My comments about DBT's stand as posted. Like I said, if your "proof" is a group DBT in an unfamiliar hotel room, with an unfamiliar system and unfamiliar source material, you might be impressed since you got the result you wanted but so far I'm not seeing anything to convince me beyond what I hear and what the author of the article claims to have heard under less "well controlled" conditions.

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Many were probably shills for the boutique capacitor companies.

Are you testing your "name calling" theory? How did you come to that conclusion, Pete? Did they have belt buckles from capacitor companies? Pete, this is seeing assassins around every corner.

Quote:
I know what brand the boutique cap was, you'll have to do your own research to find out.

Pete, I don't care. The test was not a good one. The results don't matter to me at this point.

Quote:
the room was sponsored by Stereophile as I recall, LOL! Watch out who you call a bozo, follow this link to read about it and note that they were invited by JA of Stereophile: http://blog.stereophile.com/he2007/051507works/

The link doesn't work, Pete.

Quote:
You all know who Bob Cordell is now don't you, author of "Another View of TIM" published in Audio many years ago?

I recognize Bob "Cordell". I do not recognize Bob "Cardell" as so named in your link. I mentioned the "Cordell" articles when I was discussing the "Picking Capacitors" article. The articles were both in the same two issues. So, let me get this straight. I'm supposed to believe your guy who wrote an article for Audio but you get to ignore my two guys who wrote an article for Audio? How's that work, Pete?

Quote:
Anyway, not going to engage in defending your cheap shots against people you don't even know. One of the fellows organizing the capacitor test is a PHD Economist and a damn good speaker designer.

Well, I'll tell you what, next time you want someone respected you might give some background before you post a link to an article that now has missing pieces, a blog page that doesn't work, misspelled names and inadequate information about a poorly constructed test. I've been to enough shows and heard enough speakers that I know you and I could have very different opinions of who is a "very good speaker designer".

Pete, you might be right - as far as you're concerned - you got the result you desired. And I never discount what someone else cannot hear. But so far, I'm not convinced.

Quote:
There is no "device sound", only the sound of circuits that use the devices. The same device that improves the performance of one type of circuit can cause another type of circuit to degrade or even become non-functional as in the example I've given above.

I would say we're all in agreement on that issue. As has been pointed out, a capacitor can only affect the circuit in which it resides and the circuit affects the performance of the component. That doesn't negate the idea that a capacitor can have an effect on that circuit's sound.

The question is still there for everyone to answer, have you made comparisons with various capacitors in various circuits? If so, were the comparisons made under better conditions than Pete's test?

Quote:
There is quite a bit of this kind of incompetence going on in high end audio.

So you are also of the opinion that anyone who doesn't agree with you is an "incompetent"?

A PhD Economist ? Last I looked, they weren't doing too well within their field of expertise, much less outside of it...

What a recommendation. I suppose I ought to write to Ben Bernanke, in search of an even more definitive answer to the capacitor question. Or Greenspan. Or John Malthus. Ooops -- he's dead. Sorry. I believe it was Keynes who said, in defense of short-term stop-gap measures, "...in the long term, we are all dead."

Where were we? Ah, yes. An economist says capacitors matter. Great. How the fuck would he know, without a supply/demand curve????

Tell us about his speaker designs. We'll surely listen. Do not pad his credentials with degrees in economics. As I said, this has not been a good century for economists. Not that the last one was much better...

Happy tunes. Stay away from depressing statistical metrics that attempt to measure macro or micro economic trends. None of that bullshit has worked, up to now, and there is no tangible basis for hope that any of it ever will.

Quote:
A PhD Economist ? Last I looked, they weren't doing too well within their field of expertise, much less outside of it...

Amusing, character attacks and you don't even know the person, LOL! This is what I said "One of the fellows organizing the capacitor test is a PHD Economist and a damn good speaker designer."

Did you miss the "damn good speaker designer" part? So what do we have here, distorted perception of reality, selective listening, or do you enjoy spinning the facts?
You are not trained in the field of audio, yet you are another wannabe internet expert, LOL! And did you miss the fact that several from this group were invited by JA, LOL!
More cheap shots, how offensive. You'll be on "ignore" soon.

Pete B.

Quote:
Pete, knock it off with the whole page "copy/paste". OK?

Quote:
Funny you say you're not attacking, then you call them Bozos. I certainly know who the Bozo is, ever hear of projection? Is name calling allowed on this forum? You should be banned being the one who claims others are not worthy of being here.

So you're the excitable type, eh, Pete? Sorry, from the link you provided the article is about a bunch of "bozos" in a rented hotel room. If you're trying to trick someone into something, Pete, that's not fair.

Quote:
Wrong, wrong, wrong ... the test was a good one. The write up as it stands now is just a summary.

Not as it appears in the linked article it was not. If "the test was a good one", then you should have linked to a better write up.

My comments about DBT's stand as posted. Like I said, if your "proof" is a group DBT in an unfamiliar hotel room, with an unfamiliar system and unfamiliar source material, you might be impressed since you got the result you wanted but so far I'm not seeing anything to convince me beyond what I hear and what the author of the article claims to have heard under less "well controlled" conditions.

Quote:
Many were probably shills for the boutique capacitor companies.

Are you testing your "name calling" theory? How did you come to that conclusion, Pete? Did they have belt buckles from capacitor companies? Pete, this is seeing assassins around every corner.

Quote:
I know what brand the boutique cap was, you'll have to do your own research to find out.

Pete, I don't care. The test was not a good one. The results don't matter to me at this point.

Quote:
the room was sponsored by Stereophile as I recall, LOL! Watch out who you call a bozo, follow this link to read about it and note that they were invited by JA of Stereophile: http://blog.stereophile.com/he2007/051507works/

The link doesn't work, Pete.

Quote:
You all know who Bob Cordell is now don't you, author of "Another View of TIM" published in Audio many years ago?

I recognize Bob "Cordell". I do not recognize Bob "Cardell" as so named in your link. I mentioned the "Cordell" articles when I was discussing the "Picking Capacitors" article. The articles were both in the same two issues. So, let me get this straight. I'm supposed to believe your guy who wrote an article for Audio but you get to ignore my two guys who wrote an article for Audio? How's that work, Pete?

Quote:
Anyway, not going to engage in defending your cheap shots against people you don't even know. One of the fellows organizing the capacitor test is a PHD Economist and a damn good speaker designer.

Well, I'll tell you what, next time you want someone respected you might give some background before you post a link to an article that now has missing pieces, a blog page that doesn't work, misspelled names and inadequate information about a poorly constructed test. I've been to enough shows and heard enough speakers that I know you and I could have very different opinions of who is a "very good speaker designer".

Pete, you might be right - as far as you're concerned - you got the result you desired. And I never discount what someone else cannot hear. But so far, I'm not convinced.

Excitable, nah, this is nothing, just laughing at the situation!

Tricked you? LOL, I wasn't even trying, you commented and insulted people based on your own arrogant assumptions, LOL! Did you ever think of asking who this Pjay fellow is before insulting an invited guest of JA?

Wait, didn't I put you on "ignore" ...

Pete B.

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Did you ever think of asking who this Pjay fellow is before insulting an invited guest of JA?

Whether you put me on ignore or not, here's my reply to that statement. You didn't tell me anyone was an invited guest of JA. You put up a link without any other explanation. Like I said, if you want me to know something you know and I don't, you're going to have to tell me beforehand.

And, if you have decided to put me on ignore just because I have disagreed with you in your short time here on two threads, you don't belong on a discussion forum either. And you make a very poor representative for your point when you refuse to debate anything other than one poorly designed DBT.

I would like to make some constructive comments about this page, however I'd like to know if the figures on the right side show for others. I only get a box with a red X:
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/consider.htm

Pete B.

Hey Jan.
First of all, the link Pete provided does work. Second, you have no right to tell others that they don't belong here. Finally, I'd be willing to bet hard money -- in fact, I'd be willing to bet my vinyl collection -- that it's not the fact that you disagree with Pete, but your stinking, self-righteous attitude, that's got him wanting to ignore you.

As I've said before, perhaps if you weren't so impossibly condescending, you'd have better luck communicating with people.

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I would like to make some constructive comments about this page, however I'd like to know if the figures on the right side show for others. I only get a box with a red X:
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/consider.htm

Pete B.

Pete, the pictures do not display for me either. Bummer.

Hey, so, how long does a capacitor last before its sound starts to degrade?

Or, in the alternative, how long before its electrical performance shows a change from spec?

I've had some vintage gear where the caps "wore out."

It was entirely audible, too.

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I would like to make some constructive comments about this page, however I'd like to know if the figures on the right side show for others. I only get a box with a red X

Text but no graphics.

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Hey Jan.
First of all, the link Pete provided does work

Not for me it doesn't. I don't lie, Stephen. Care to direct me to the right location so we all have the same information?

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Second, you have no right to tell others that they don't belong here.

There's a lot of stuff that gets posted on this forum that I don't feel should be here, Stephen. I listed many of them in my reply to your recent PM regarding my mention of a Stereophile Recommended Component. The six pages of "Let's all beat up on Jan" you allowed still tops the list, IMO, of what does not belong on a forum.

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As I've said before, perhaps if you weren't so impossibly condescending, you'd have better luck communicating with people.

And yet not a word to Clifton about his constant sprinkling of obscenities in many of his posts. Not a word to upd about his constant rants. As I mentioned in my email reply which I sent to both you and John regarding your "recommended component" PM you need to play this game fairly, Stephen. If you are going to tell people what doesn't belong on this forum, you need to do so without allowing your personal feelings to guide your decisions. If you're simply trying to draw me into some sort of conflict with you and your displaced ego, I don't care to play that game.

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The room was sponsored by Stereophile as I recall, LOL! Watch out who you call a bozo, follow this link to read about it and note that they were invited by JA of Stereophile: http://blog.stereophile.com/he2007/051507works/

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The link doesn't work, Pete.

The link you complained about works fine. See above.

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I would like to make some constructive comments about this page, however I'd like to know if the figures on the right side show for others. I only get a box with a red X:
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/consider.htm

Pete B.

Pete, the pictures do not display for me either. Bummer.

Thanks for checking Elk, I'll try to comment further when I have some free time. Also about your digital crossover questions, good questions.

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The link you complained about works fine. See above.

Nothing.

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Nothing.

Here too. Which makes sense because if I click on Properties for the photo it says it's an HTM page. Here's that part of the main page's source:

Code:<img src="consider_files/fig5.htm" align="bottom" height="202" width="250">
So the real question is why it works for anyone. BTW the same happens for me in IE6 and Firefox 2.

--Ethan

Now that's weird.

Have you tried entering the URL directly into your browser window? It is not just a picture.

http://blog.stereophile.com/he2007/051507works/

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Nothing.

Here too. Which makes sense because if I click on Properties for the photo it says it's an HTM page. Here's that part of the main page's source:

Code:<img src="consider_files/fig5.htm" align="bottom" height="202" width="250">
So the real question is why it works for anyone. BTW the same happens for me in IE6 and Firefox 2.

--Ethan

There's a link, I get this when I click on properties:
http://blog.stereophile.com/he2007/051507works/

And a picture, this from properties for the picture:
http://blog.stereophile.com/he2007/Amp_Seminar.jpg

I get the same that Pete does.

Huh.

Not only do we hear differently, we apparently see differently as well.

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Have you tried entering the URL directly into your browser window? It is not just a picture.

I had tried that and still with your address I get the same thing, a Stereophile page but no text.

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There's a link, I get this when I click on properties:

I get the photo you had posted earlier but still no text.

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I would like to make some constructive comments about this page, however I'd like to know if the figures on the right side show for others. I only get a box with a red X:
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/consider.htm

Pete B.

I've actually done patent searches over the years to determine if some of my own ideas were unique and came across US patent 3287789 dated Nov. 29, 1966. Here it is on Google, please note figure 2B:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=Vg1oAAA...;ct=result#PPA1,M1

That figure jumped out at me because I was certain that I'd seen it before in modern writing. It or a very similar version was Figure 7 at this link before the images were deleted:
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/consider.htm

I was not out to get anybody, and simply stumbled across the figure. This is where I first commented about it, but the links in this post are now dead:
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Bo...ost&p=57458

From that link: "I'm not trying to bash Marsh here, in fact I thought his early paper with Jung was well done - I've not followed his later work.
Anyway I just thought I'd point this out, not an error but there certainly was prior work that was not referenced.

It is the way their MutiCap

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Interesting that the images are now gone.

Interesting how everything you link to is either not working, missing information or a summary compiled by someone with a point of their own to make. Why draw a distinction in something that is not an error? Isn't this called nit-picking for the sake of nit-picking?

Pete, you are the one who mentioned his PhD in Economics, within context, as an implied credential for his being a listening expert. LOL (whatever that means -- are you laughing on line, or just laughing?). Who ought to care which? Or is this a nervous titter that habitually gets cliched into all of your comments?

On IGNORE ? Oh my god! Excuse me. OMG. LOL. IMHO. Let's see. Have I left out anything? Ignored by Pete the Great??? I cannot possibly envision a worse fate. Does a black star get posted next to my bio every time I get ignored? Oh, goody! Next thing you know, I'll be excluded from heaven.

Ignored. By Pete. Sob .

LOL. IMHO. OMG.

Still, I am just aching to read what having a PhD in economics has to do with arbitrating an "organized" (snicker) capacitor test. And "a damn (sic) good speaker designer" (Stephen, I demand that these obscene cursings be censored -- my tender ears are just not used to this kind of roughage). Well, anyway, that's a definitive recommendation. Now, what speakers, pray tell, did he design? Since this is your appeal to expertise, for corroborating your own unassailable point, pray tell us which speaker(s) this expert economist designed. So we can judge for ourselves.

Jan, I am so sorry you find my obscenities, er, obscene. Of course, you would never offend anyone, right? Frankly, I find your blind verbal thrashings as offensive as any obscenities I have ever uttered, or heard or read anyone else utter.

It is getting very chippy out there in Stereophile land. And all for the sake of uncovering the dirty truths about capacitors.

You know, sane folks might laugh about all this bullshit. Listen to the product. Buy it if you like it. If you don't like it, but you are in a quandary over the quality of its capacitors, you have a big problem.

LOL.

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Next thing you know, I'll be excluded from heaven.

OMG!

We are exchanging posts with that Pete?

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It is the way their MutiCap

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Pete, you are the one who mentioned his PhD in Economics, within context, as an implied credential for his being a listening expert. LOL (whatever that means -- are you laughing on line, or just laughing?). Who ought to care which? Or is this a nervous titter that habitually gets cliched into all of your comments?

On IGNORE ? Oh my god! Excuse me. OMG. LOL. IMHO. Let's see. Have I left out anything? Ignored by Pete the Great??? I cannot possibly envision a worse fate. Does a black star get posted next to my bio every time I get ignored? Oh, goody! Next thing you know, I'll be excluded from heaven.

Ignored. By Pete. Sob .

LOL. IMHO. OMG.

Still, I am just aching to read what having a PhD in economics has to do with arbitrating an "organized" (snicker) capacitor test. And "a damn (sic) good speaker designer" (Stephen, I demand that these obscene cursings be censored -- my tender ears are just not used to this kind of roughage). Well, anyway, that's a definitive recommendation. Now, what speakers, pray tell, did he design? Since this is your appeal to expertise, for corroborating your own unassailable point, pray tell us which speaker(s) this expert economist designed. So we can judge for ourselves.

Jan, I am so sorry you find my obscenities, er, obscene. Of course, you would never offend anyone, right? Frankly, I find your blind verbal thrashings as offensive as any obscenities I have ever uttered, or heard or read anyone else utter.

It is getting very chippy out there in Stereophile land. And all for the sake of uncovering the dirty truths about capacitors.

You know, sane folks might laugh about all this bullshit. Listen to the product. Buy it if you like it. If you don't like it, but you are in a quandary over the quality of its capacitors, you have a big problem.

LOL.

I'll tell you again, slowly this time, LOL ... Laughing ... Out ... Loud ... You who acts so rightous, and all knowing, arrogantly and carelessly made character attacks against invited guests of JA the editor of Stereophile. That makes me LOL! Get it this time?
Have you taken the time to have a look at who this gentleman is? Here is his web page, anyone can take a look and see that he is a highly competent loudspeaker designer, and he loves dogs, LOL! Oh, wait, no you have to actually know something about loudspeaker design to see that he is highly competent, so don't bother looking, just STFU, LOL!:
http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=main.html

Working to obtain a PhD is an accomplishment, this is obvious. His being in Economics leads me to believe that he probably has had a class or two in statistics, again obvious but it seems I have to point it out to you. Even if he has not, his having such a degree makes me confident that he can pick up the books and learn.

Clearly, you are throwing up another smoke screen with your long winded character attack. And you also have a PhD, the difference is that I have no respect for you what-so-ever.

I can just imagine your next attack, he knows nothing about live music .... In his own words: "I

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Figure 6 show the effects of changing the lead length from 3/8" to 3". The upper frequency limit is lowered from approximately 490khz to 290khz.

So that is why David Hafler was so adamant that we carefully measured and trimmed various leads to precise measurements - others he said didn't not matter and just needed to be tidy.

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Pete, you are the one who mentioned his PhD in Economics, within context, as an implied credential for his being a listening expert.

Actually, I believe Pete's implication was anyone with a P.H.D. in Economics is good at putting together a DBT for audio components. That logic doesn't necessary follow one to the next. Also, I would think Pete meant anyone with a P.H.D. is smarter, read superior, when compared to anyone without a P.H.D. This is a common argument among "the elite" that has never held water once you've talked to a few P.H.D.'s. Of course, in Pete's view, who is smarter with a P.H.D. is selective;

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And you also have a PhD, the difference is that I have no respect for you what-so-ever ... This (you) are a pathetic waste of time

Pete gets to pick who gets ignored and who gets respected based on Pete's on criteria. His one guy in Audio against my two guys in Audio and one guy with a P.H.D. but not another guy with a P.H.D.

Odd.

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Jan, I am so sorry you find my obscenities, er, obscene.

Obscenities are, er, obscenities. Was there a reason for insulting me for pointing out the obvious?

As far as I'm concerned, Stephen is of the mood to allow anything to exist on this forum for the sake of free speech. My disagreement is with Stephen. If he allows anything to stand without comment, then he should allow everything to stand without comment- or he should not be selective in his comments. There's more than enough material on this forum that probably shouldn't be here.

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There's more than enough material on this forum that probably shouldn't be here.

Such as this post.

Can we please stop bickering and get back to the topic?

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Such as this post.

Well, excuuuuuuuuuuuse me!

Well aren't we all one big happy disfunctional family?
If someone would just build the ideal system there would be no need for a stupid capacitor. An ideal power supply would have no noise to filter, thus need no caps. An ideal amplifier wouldn't need any input or output caps, would be so stable that it wouldn't need any hi freq shunts to prevent oscillation. Wouldn't need any caps to compensate for frequency response.
So instead of arguing about the best capacitor we should be arguing against the use of capacitors. Lets start our own web site for people against the use of capacitors in audio.
Are you with me?

I happen to like caps. I don't like what they do, but personally I have nothing against them.

So you are saying that I am a bigot because I have a negative opinion of capacitors? You on the other hand just except them because they do the dirty work that others won't do.

I said neither.

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I said neither.

Yea I know.

Pete, you promised to ignore me. You broke your promise. Why should we believe anything else you say?

I took a class in statistics once. It was an easy "A" and, I can assure you, did absolutely nothing to enhance my ability to enjoy live or recorded music.

In regards to "...you who acts so rightous...(sic)"-- I never acts rightous. Or righteous.

He is "...a semi-professional violist." Okay. In the immortal words of wee Bobby Burns, "...I am a bard of no regard." But, I almost got paid for it, once. I guess that makes me a semi-professional poet. Once, I played professional baseball. Hell, that ought to count for something. I actually signed with the Giants. Their mistake. That didn't validate my competence as an authority on universally applicable listening skills, either.

Repeat. It has been a bad decade for economic modelers. Check out the latest scorecard.

He was a guest of JA? I don't give a rat's ass if he was a guest of the Pope. What speakers did he design, and how did his knowledge of the statistics of capacitors help? I have an open mind and a full wallet. Just tell me where to go listen to these economist-designed wonders, and, in the interest of getting better sound into my room, I promise to buy them, no matter what they cost, if they are better than what I now have.

I'm long-winded?

I have contributed nothing. Alas. I merely submit that the proof is in the listening. To the best of my poor ability.

Elk, you may be right. I am sure I will pay for my transgressions before St. Pete in the Great Showroom in the Sky. Shit. Might as well get my money's worth in the here and now, because eternity is gonna really suck.

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Yea I know.

That would make you the only one who does.