Alan, the Rowland Continuum is $8800, not $10k+, but that IS top-of-the-pile, IMHO. Bel Canto is a step down from there in price, offering similar power. A $2000 budget for something used on Audiogon can get you pretty close. Anyway, whatever your budget, I think you're better off spending it on one superior amp than two mediocre amps.

Dave

Quote:
How do Valve amps enetr into this discussion about bass control?

Valve amps have typically have damping factors in the single digit range. I looked at measurements on VTL and Audio Research amps where the damping factors were approximately 2 and 8. Depending on the speaker, such high output impedance can certainly impact bass performance. I'd go with a good solid state vs. trying to biamp with mixed amplifier types.

A few.....soon you will see my sons. More than a few. No amount of marketing and hype can change reality. Watts moves drivers, Drivers move air. Watts controls drivers, controlled drivers sound better. AVA controls Legacy better, so it sounds better. FAST, powerful, reliable. Slew rates matter, low distortion, and not 1/2 inch front panels, and names molded out of heatsinks. A stack o' CROWNS...cool Bi amplifiying makes a large difference. Get the basics right, and it all works well. Watts, there is no substitute.

Rowan + Martin = Laugh In

"Would it be feasible to drive a pair of bi ampable speakers with a sweet sounding amp like my current Quad 909 and the to drive the wooofers with a pro audio amp like the Crown ?

Is there any inherent issues with this idea ? it sounds in simple terms like id get the best of both worlds"

I have never done it, but many say they have combined amps and it works great. I suppose "speed" might be a consideration, see how they blend, and the xover frequency involved.

I am sure others are more knowledgable in this area than I am.

Take care. Alan
-----

Your welcome Dave.

Quote:
...

Of course I don't know the design of each, but if electrolytic caps are not isolated well from the direct circuit path, the wooley bass can be caused by the caps, even though the damping factor is extremely high. ...

I was thinking more about this comment last night. I think it supports the arguement that we're hearing distortion. It's not as nasty sounding as some higher frequency distortion and it sounds like out of control bass, so it's easy to say the speaker is poorly damped; however, maybe it IS that the amp cannot generate the needed current at the needed speed and fails by throwing up a woolly approximation of bass.

In my earlier illustration, the Primare integrated and the Rowland 102 stereo amp had similar power and healthy damping factors, but the Primare was way woollier.

Now my question is, "why doesn't that gross an observed flaw show up in test measurements?" Those distortion percentages have to be higher than a fraction of a percent, yet we never see any test with that kind of distortion.

Dave

Quote:
I think it takes a very large room to really appreciate 20hz. Correct me if I am wrong on this point.

Any room can reproduce any arbitrarily low frequency. It's a myth that a room must be large enough for low frequencies to "develop." If this were not true, then headphones wouldn't work.

--Ethan

Quote:
"Would it be feasible to drive a pair of bi ampable speakers with a sweet sounding amp like my current Quad 909 and the to drive the wooofers with a pro audio amp like the Crown ?

Is there any inherent issues with this idea ? it sounds in simple terms like id get the best of both worlds"

From my Vandersteens' owners manual:
"When half of the speaker is driven by a different amplifier model than the other half - and in these cases, usually by amplifiers chosen for the differences in their sounds rather than the similarities - the blending between the woofer and midrange is compromised and the sonic consistency of the speaker is affected. The upper and lower halves of the speaker will exhibit different dynamic characteristics, imaging characteristics, tonal balances and degrees of detail. This will cause considerable sonic confusion through the middle frequencies."

Here's a pro-biamping article:
Bi-Amping "Advantages"

I think this article makes light of some of the key issues, such as acquiring a good crossover, bypassing the existing internal crossovers, acquiring additional amp(s), etc. HOWEVER, when done right, biamping can be very, very good. It's a potential DIYer dream...or nightmare.

Dave

i currently use a bi-amped system. my setup is not a super high line rig, but i started with an arcam integrated amp. the manual suggests biamping with the companion amp which i acquired early this year. the manual makes no other mention but to connect the two with an interconnect, which i have done. i had my nordost speaker cable reconfigured from biwire to biamp. i was curious about using a crossover as well, but assumed that they would have suggested one if needed. i can only assume that the units are designed to work together on this. on the whole, the speakers do not should much different, except, where there was previously a suggestion of bass, now it is there with power. logic would seem to suggest that the mids and highs would be overrepresented but they are not. probably a preamp and 2 monoblocks would be better, but on a budget, this seems to work well. i bought the integrated new for about 1200 and found the amp on agon for 500. i think for that money, it would be hard to match the sound. when i can afford to spend quite a bit more, i will probably go with regular preamp and separate amp or monos. i would love to try that marantz they just reviewed.
so, overall, i am positive about the subject.

If we're talking about active multi-amping then I would only recommend this with speakers (and matching external XOs) designed for it. The XO is an integral part of the speaker's design. I don't see why there is any reason to expect that a XO not specifically designed to work with a set of drive units should provide acceptable SQ, let alone SQ superior to one that is. It is not just a question of XO frequencies, slopes etc. but all kind of phase shifts that can really mess things up.

Some speakers are designed for multi-amping and you can buy dedicated external XOs that are designed to work with that specific drive unit combination. In that situation one may actually get to experience some of the theoretical benefits of multi-amping, otherwise IMHO it is almost certain to screw things up.

Done right however it can sound fantastic. I will never forget hearing a pair of B&W Nautiluses quad-amped with Levinson 331s (I think) in that great store there used to be in Coral Gables. Amazing sound and one of my truly memorable hi-fi experiences! For my money they totally blew away the Wilson MAXXes driven by Levinson 33s which were being demmed with the same front-end.

Just my 2c worth!

Quote:

Roadster-

Glad to hear that you bought a REL and are loving it. Isn't it amazing how they completely disappear when you have them set up right? RELs are amazing at adding bass without calling any attention to themselves as the source of the extra bass. Rarely do I say that anything is the best of any category but the REL products are an exception. Only the Thiels are as good, maybe slightly better. But if they aren't being integrated with Thiel speakers they are a way more expensive solution.

I had auditioned over a dozen bookshelf/sub combinations and the reult was always the same...the bookshelf speakers were here and the sub was there. As mrlowry stated, the RELs blended in unnoticed. Clean, clear and fast bass...no annoying thump, thump, thump. Very musical, not mechanical. Excellent recommendation mrlowry! Thanks again.

I agree that RELs are some of the best for those that "must" use subs. However, you can't just plop them anywhere in the speaker end of the room, it requires some expertise. Luckily REL is distributed by Sumiko and they've developed a method for optimizing the set up of the main speakers and the sub.

Dave

Correct you are, Dave. One "can't just plop them anywhere" but I wouldn't say their installation requires"expertise"...common sense and enough patience to read the instructions. Took me all of 30 minutes. Maybe I was just lucky.

Mike

Nelson's (PASS Audio) current crossover is also quite good for being 'manipulable' into working with just about any speaker with an external crossover. If you are considering going active , with an outboard crossover..then his unit should be at or near..ok..at the top of your list. However, be ready to really know your stuff. Or buy a pre-set unit.

I bought a 10B crossover from Bryston, and had it custom tuned by them to do 250-300hz separations (steps)between 1.7khz to 4.0khz. This, with selectable 6-12-18 db slopes. That's the other possibility that works well.

I can appreciate, Alex, your not wanting this to become an "enginering project". Guess I was lucky beings my dealer demoed the Maggies and REL that I was interested in and even showed me how to do the sub install. Seems as tough this dealer doesn't really want your business (?).
Is finding another dealer an option? Best of luck.

Well, I guess it all depends on how...determined(?)...you are to get the system you want. I had driven from Baltimore to North Jersey to hear a pair of $2K speakers, which I didn't purchase. But it was worth the trip, to me, because now I know how those speakers sound.

It seems as though you plan on making a much greater investment, than did I. If it was me, drive I would.
Take along some of your favorite music and make a day of it.

FYI Beings that dealer wouldn't set-up the REL sub check out ther web site www.rel.net and you can read about how to do the install.

Keep us posted.

I'd do it. Maggies work great with a sub (or two).

Of course there are options. It all comes down to what one prefers.

I like Avantgarde's speakers a lot, BTW.

Go back to the Legacies, these guys are just pulling your chain. They saw you about to make a decision and the yanked to make sure the thread didn't die.

Dave

Yeah, I guess we would wonder if they treated you different from any other OP.

Dave

Quote:
I don't want to make an engineering project out of this and I don't want to buy anything without hearing it first.

Listen to the Vandersteen Quatros.
http://www.earsnova.com/
http://www.soundbysinger.com/
http://www.americanaudiophile.com/

No...stayed FOCUSED....stay FOCUSED

This whole thread is getting ridiculous

There are no seriously bad speakers sold at the $5k+ level nowadays. There are speakers that anyone one indvidual would think sound horrible, but another individual could think that same speaker sounds fantastic.

The whole of idea of a forum dictating a specific purchase is obsurd, the idea of a forum is to share knowledge so that you can make an informed decision. Not to be a consumers digest best of list.

Alan

That's why he must listen to a variety of options in his price range. I'm not saying he should buy a particular loudspeaker. I'm am saying it would be a shame to make a choice without at least listening to the Vandersteens.

For what it's worth:

I have a pair of Vandersteen 3A Signatures with a Vandersteen 2WQ subwoofer and the subwoofer was not all that difficult to set up plus it blends seamlessly with the 3As. And the 3A's are not difficult speakers to drive.

Total cost: New - $5,400; Used - somewhere between $2,500 and $4,000

Quote:
There are no seriously bad speakers sold at the $5k+ level nowadays.

There's at least one brand/model I'm aware of that costs about $20k per pair and sucks big time. When I heard them at an audio show a few years ago they were noticeably worse than Behringer Truth passive speakers a friend of mine has that cost only $80 each.

--Ethan

Cus' ya gotta buy all the cheap stuff...but it has to be the RIGHT cheap stuff. The best sounding cheap wires......the best sounding cheap wall outlets.....that is true, the more ya spend, you expect it to be so perfect, and it probably will let ya down. All the wrong stuff purchased correctly sounds best. Or maybe it's proper matching of all the wrong stuff correctly, matching all the right stuff wrongly and paying more sounds worser.

Quote:
Cus' ya gotta buy all the cheap stuff...but it has to be the RIGHT cheap stuff. The best sounding cheap wires......the best sounding cheap wall outlets.....that is true, the more ya spend, you expect it to be so perfect, and it probably will let ya down. All the wrong stuff purchased correctly sounds best. Or maybe it's proper matching of all the wrong stuff correctly, matching all the right stuff wrongly and paying more sounds worser.

Now you got it, Dup!

Quote:
For what it's worth:

I have a pair of Vandersteen 3A Signatures with a Vandersteen 2WQ subwoofer and the subwoofer was not all that difficult to set up plus it blends seamlessly with the 3As. And the 3A's are not difficult speakers to drive.

Total cost: New - $5,400; Used - somewhere between $2,500 and $4,000

Interesting! I added a sub to my Vandersteens 2ci's too. Vandersteens are generally regarded as being full range/having good bass but adding the sub improved things for me. It's integrated pretty well. Played around with location, crossover point, phase, etc. Got the best results with it next to one of the speakers, on the inboard side, on the same plane as the speakers. And frankly, I enjoy the adjustability of the sub. I can turn it up or down a bit to match the needs of a given recording.

I've told you many times which stuff you should be buying and using.....stuff from Parts Express or MCM are teh perfect source for WIRES. If ya get real fancy you go with their MCM "good" stuff Stellar Labs...yeah, I'm sure it's a lab. Parts Express has Dayton house brand, or lotsa Nuetrik and proco sound, I use Proco sound xlr mic wires, good stuff cheap, warranited to work and work, and work correctly, they use Nuetrik ends, superb stuff. MCM or Parts Express, wires for the discerning ear, and a mortal wallet

Trying to mix and match poor quality stuff, with major problems, will only get one so far, as one can never perfectly match all the variables in sound.

The closer to perfection each piece is, the better off one is when matching since the imperfections are less pronounced.

Close to perfection.....yupper. A perfect wire is one that is long enough to reach, and strong enough to survive, and rated for it's use. Perfection can be met simply enough. And not be so crappy that fter years it oozes plastizers and gets all gooye or gets hard....cheap wires, oh wait, that was one of them pricey BRAND NAME magic wires....taught me big lesson. Quality is what quality is, and it ain't always those heavily advertise rip offs. It was basically junk in a fancy wrapper. So now I get good stuff in plain wrappers. Since teh wrapper ain't what I use. Now are you talking MORTALL perfection or absurd perfection? Can you hear wht a $100K TT sounds like compared to a expensive say $3,000 TT....hearing if you didn't know which is what. Cus knowing it is priced to sell to lunk heads at $100K, is certainly gonna make it sound a lot better....what price do you place on perfection anyway?

I am talking about components, since they have the major problems.

By the way, before you completely screw everyone over, there are differences in wire. Deal with it.

OT please. Alex is trying to pick a pair of speakers.

DUP has a big need to have the last word, so let him say whatever he'll say, no matter how profound or rediculous, and then let it drop and let's get back to the OP's question.

Dave

components do not have major problems, only when you get the wrong ones that can't do the job.....wires are different yup, I'm sure they are. The ones that are priced in reality, and the ones with magic ads, ...pick accordingly. The best speaker wires are Sound King by the 100 foot roll....if he was an EMPEROR, they would have to charge double, so I got em before he grew more powerful. If you can justify the prices of nonsense, keep on buying em, but they have no benefit in making things sound good. Proper is as proper does. Haven't been to a live music event that didn't have wires all over teh stage, walked on, etc. There it means wires taht are able to take abuse, keep connected, and be long enough to go from A to B. Nuetrik, Switchcraft, so proco sound (made in USA, too) George L's Robust, sturdy, and just keep on going. No magic twists and wrapers, just good construction, based on electrical designs that mean something....Never seen $1,000 cords either that are 8 feet long, cus' that's RETARDED.

"components do not have major problems, only when you get the wrong ones that can't do the job.....wires are different yup, I'm sure they are."

Since when have you taken any engineering courses? Since you cannot design a simple circuit, let alone a complex one, how can you know if any design has major problems or not?

So it looks like you are just as much a scam artist as those you accuse.

Are you going to now claim you have taken engineering courses?

Alex, my advice is if you get a chance listen to as many speakers as possible before purchasing. Hopefully, you can get a 30 day money back guarantee if you later become dissatisfied.

Engineering courses.........I have a degree in BS detection. You keep esposing that componetns have "problems", and of course you have solved them, nice marketing. Modern well designed, made componets have no problems. Some of your references on your pages are dated, and have beome irrelavant to modern stuff. I also think you claiming only your stuff lasts and laats, in one page is nonsense. And how all these solutions you have come up with, for issues that many competent designers have dealt with. Are non issues. You may have mighty fine stuff. But some of your ideas are just hype like other mfgs. If minimal cktry is your angle, then you give up features and functionality. I know of brands that have both, don't rip you with insane prices, not based on the actual costs of the product mfg. Your sales angle on solving all these problems that don't exist, is your marketing angle. Every company needs something to use to sell. You claim wires sound different, but in one of your pages you speak of a poorly design ckt that is affected by the wires capacitance etc, you contridict yourself, cus' i know for a fact that properly designed ckts are not affectted by the wires, my sure ain't. So they don't have IEC plugs, cus the AC cord ain't gonna do anything, neither are magic interconects between them. IEC cords are a functionality for conviences and shipping, somehow some audio marketing guru took it and ran with it, and decides how he can sell BS to the gulliable. Computers have IEC cords, why, to make the computer work better? Huh?

"Engineering courses.........I have a degree in BS detection."

>Doing the two step I see. You don't have one single course under your belt. Just as I thought.

"You keep esposing that componetns have "problems", and of course you have solved them, nice marketing."

>Because it is true and took decades to solve. Most don't even understand the problems, even though they are in engineering text books. And yes, no one has been able to tell if a preamplifier is in the system or out. I wonder how would you personally test a preamp?

"Modern well designed, made componets have no problems."

>Since you do not know how to design, or have read an engineering text book, how would you know? In fact, you have no idea and just got caught BSing the public. Seems like you are doing what you accuse others of doing.

"Some of your references on your pages are dated, and have beome irrelavant to modern stuff."

>I see you are as unspecific as possible. Mention it or them.

"I also think you claiming only your stuff lasts and laats, in one page is nonsense."

>Oh yeah? This is what I stated folks.
"The 10A line preamplifier has never failed since the company's inception in Dec, 1996. (Not counting UPS and Fedex shipping damage.) No one else can claim such a spotless record to my knowledge."

Dup, do you know of any manufacturer who has a spotless record of no failures in 11 years, who has not had to repair one unit? That is part of good engineering dup.

"And how all these solutions you have come up with, for issues that many competent designers have dealt with. Are non issues."

>First you state there are no problems, now there are issues. Unfortunately, these "competent designers" either do not understand the issues, or have not dealt with the issues as a simple look at a schematic would demonstrate.

"You may have mighty fine stuff. But some of your ideas are just hype like other mfgs."

>Wanna bet? I have tried what I preach. I would love to believe what you do, but it is not the truth.

"If minimal cktry is your angle, then you give up features and functionality."

>I thought the best musical performance is people want? Wow, that is a downer. Guess you would rather give up the quality of music by having features like a remote. Again I wish it were true, but not so. I guess blue circle and other companies have it all wrong as well.

"I know of brands that have both, don't rip you with insane prices, not based on the actual costs of the product mfg."

>Bet I can guess what that might be? Go ahead and tell us.

"Your sales angle on solving all these problems that don't exist, is your marketing angle."

>Now you mention no problems again. Why don't you state specifically instead of veiling the problems that don't exist? Let's see what you actually have to present with understanding and with facts to back up your assertions.

"Every company needs something to use to sell. You claim wires sound different, but in one of your pages you speak of a poorly design ckt that is affected by the wires capacitance etc, you contridict yourself,"

>Oh really? If anyone reads my pages, I state that using Lead to Lead (TM) connecting eliminates at least one wire and solder connection to begin with. If more than two part leads are connected, then we save more wire and solder connections.
So no contradiction as you falsely claim.

"cus' i know for a fact that properly designed ckts are not affectted by the wires, my sure ain't."

>Unfortunately you have not presented any facts to support that claim since you have no education or experience. So how are you going to know fact from fiction?

Secondly, can you tell us just exactly how a circuit would NOT be properly designed if the wire makes a difference? This should be interesting since you don't have any engineering or design experience, remember.

"So they don't have IEC plugs, cus the AC cord ain't gonna do anything, neither are magic interconects between them."

>Well, too bad you don't understand even basic electronics, which makes your points worthless at best, and deceptive at worse.

"IEC cords are a functionality for conviences and shipping, somehow some audio marketing guru took it and ran with it, and decides how he can sell BS to the gulliable."

> Can you prove that? Unfortunately, you cannot present any engineering evidence to support your claim. Just continued hype.

"Computers have IEC cords, why, to make the computer work better? Huh?"

Your last comment is so totally lacking in any comprehension, it really shows a total, complete lack of understanding of electronics.

By the way, huge and mid fi companies have an agenda, similar to yours dup. The problem is you cannot tell the difference between reality and what is not because of your lack of education and experimenting. So you get suckered in from the other side. Middle ground is the best place to understand.

About the only thing you know is that pet rocks and magic clocks are hype. But everyone knows that.