linden518
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How a Newbie Built His 1st System
bifcake
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Interesting way of approaching things.

I think you should have picked out your speakers first though because the speakers dictate the amplifier choice rather than the other way around. You may have wound up with the same system, but I think you would have gotten there in a more direct, less round about way.

When you're sitting there, auditioning various amplifiers with various speakers, and you describe the sound of the amps, you're not really hearing the amps, you're hearing the amps as they work with the particular speakers that you're listening to. So, unless these speakers are the ones you're going to buy, the test becomes irrelevant.

I'm glad you found the system you like. Oh, and listen to your Uncle Alex and don't go to the turntable route. You'll be on the constant merry-go-round of tweaking and upgrading instead of saving your money for a major system upgrade.

soundberry
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Also my idea is to start choosing the loudspeaker.

And it is important for you to choose an easy to manage loudspeaker.

How?

Ask into the same shop to hear tha same loudspeaker with good economic amplifier with about 30w and costing no more 800 euro, preferred an hybrid one.

If the sound is decreasing too much in quality you should not buy this speaker and look to another one.

And so on...

Check it.

tom collins
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congrats. glad you are happy with your choices. now, enjoy your listening and concentrate on getting your degree.
best regards.

tom

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Wonderful story. I'm going to bookmark this and share it with others who are in your position.

rvance
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sd, I don't think "underachiever" adequately describes a person with your literary/musical intellect. The speed with which you were able to learn the audio ropes and assemble a brilliant system is enviable.

linden518
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Quote:
Interesting way of approaching things.

I think you should have picked out your speakers first though because the speakers dictate the amplifier choice rather than the other way around. You may have wound up with the same system, but I think you would have gotten there in a more direct, less round about way.

When you're sitting there, auditioning various amplifiers with various speakers, and you describe the sound of the amps, you're not really hearing the amps, you're hearing the amps as they work with the particular speakers that you're listening to.


Hi, "Uncle" AlexO (LOL!). It should have been clear that I did listen to various amps through one pair of speakers: Devore 8s, and the difference between each amp was remarkable. Speakers definitely have strong sonic signatures, but so do amps, for sure. So I don't see why one shouldn't approach it from both ends, even if it kills some time. I definitely matched the speakers to the amp & I wouldn't advise this method on someone as a general rule, but again: you build your own system & you have to be happy with the sound that you hear, personally. I'm thinking of this one review that I read - I forget if it was Wes Philips or Art Dudley - in which the reviewer said it frequently changes which component in a system that he views as the central "nerve" in the system, the most important part. The reviewer mentioned that he used to think it was the speakers before, the source during other times, but during the period of the review, he felt that it was the amplifier. Not only do we differ in how we categorize what is "more important," in other words, but the order of preference changes even within us, over time. That can only mean: there is no such thing as the definitive "most important." It also means: rules are meant to be broken. I don't think there should be some kind of a cardinal rule at all in how one goes about putting together a system. Each should arrive at his or her own system of order, and someone's systematic approach will be more composed/efficient whereas someone else's will be more unruly/chaotic. As long as we arrive at music, the way we want to hear, I say all rules should be happily suspended.

Personally speaking, I do agree with the common wisdom that picking out the speakers first is the most efficient way... yet I strongly believe that one should follow his/her own intuition about things, just to be redundant. Besides, a big part of the fun in the process for me was going about by my own dictates, even if it slowed down the process. I sure heard a lot more equipment this way, became a more discerning listener, learned more. If I were to build a different system, I'm sure this learning will come into play. I really like shambling about in a loose way, which is the way I like to learn things.

Thanks, everyone, for your encouraging words, too! You're too nice, rvance - I really am a constant underachiever, procrastinator. But thanks for your good word.

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Great article.

Thanks for sharing.

It was also fun to watch the process as it unfolded. You put a good deal of effort into your search and were well-rewarded.

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Selfdivider, you seem to have highly tuned ears. Have you always been into music, perhaps as a performer (singer or instrumentalist) or is all your experience as a listener to live music and/or recorded music? I'm just curious about how some people "get it" so quickly and others remain clueless.

I've been involved in live music since 10 and daughters are also musicians, so I understand how musicians can be disappointed with less than stellar sound (not all are, but many are). I'm most interested in the stories of non-musicians and how they come to be so deeply involved.

Like Elk said, it's been fun to watch you. Thanks for sharing.

Dave

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You have certainly contracted the disease. Welcome to the Leper colony. I really
enjoyed reading about your adventure. Valvo tubes rule!

linden518
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Monty: The leper colony! What a perfect metaphor, hahaha. I'd like to try SET later, though... then I'd be a super-leper.

dcstep: I'm not a professional or semi-pro musician like some of you guys, but I do play piano for fun, can stutter through Chopin sonatas or Rachmaninoff preludes, Bach's Goldberg, you know, things like that. I just love listening to music, passionately, like all y'all.

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Quote:
... Oh, and listen to your Uncle Alex and don't go to the turntable route. You'll be on the constant merry-go-round of tweaking and upgrading instead of saving your money for a major system upgrade.

In my experience - turntable requires no merry-go-round of tweaking, etc. I got my current decent turntable years ago and all has been fine. I've replaced the cartridge once. All is fine, and happy with it. TT has outlasted the CD player that I bought around the same time.

BillB
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Might not be terribly polite to ask - but can you tell us approximately what your systems cost to put together?

linden518
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Hi, Bill. That's good to know about TT set-up. There are those who are detractors - AlexO! I'm looking at you! - but I'm determined to add analog to my system.

Mm, as to the cost, I'd prefer not to say, hope you can understand. But the Harbeth Super HL5 and Plinius 8150 were used. The Harbeths had less than 10 hrs on them, so they were virtually new & I'm still breaking them in. But I regret not going through the dealer as I don't have the warranty on them. As a newbie, it's kind of a shabby prospect, praying that nothing happens to them.

Two important rules about buying used that I learned: 1. If a dealer took his time to let you audition the equipment, and it's the gear you decide to settle on, you should really purchase from him. 2. Stay away from gray-market gear, i.e. equipments that have been obtained from overseas through improper channels. Otherwise, buying used is a fair game.

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Quote:
Hi, Bill. That's good to know about TT set-up. There are those who are detractors - AlexO! I'm looking at you! - but I'm determined to add analog to my system.

Don't say I didn't warn you. You'll never admit it, but deep down inside, you'll always know that I was right.

linden518
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Quote:

Quote:
Hi, Bill. That's good to know about TT set-up. There are those who are detractors - AlexO! I'm looking at you! - but I'm determined to add analog to my system.

Don't say I didn't warn you. You'll never admit it, but deep down inside, you'll always know that I was right.


Oh, Uncle AlexO! (delivered in a 50's sitcom voice, along with the laugh track)

bifcake
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Go stand in the Analog corner!

struts
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Great story selfdivider! You raise lots of very good points and I found the whole piece a superbly entertaining read. Hopefully it will help other noobs falling off the deep end into this hobby.

I assume you have read this article over at Six Moons on your travels. Your system appears to be charting a very similar course.

I can completely understand your lusting after a vinyl front-end, although the arrival of two micro terrorists forced a temporary retreat from that area of the market for yours truly a couple of years ago. I plan to regroup when some of the curiosity has subsided and they respond better to voice commands. I am not holding my breath (except during changes).

However, I feel an enormous burden of responsibility to introduce you to streamed audio so I would like to extend a warm invitation to the 'Digital Sources' and 'Computer Audio' sections lower down the board (I know you've 'visited', but I'm talking about 'moving in'...). Your interest in spinning silver discs, while endearing, is just sooooo nineteen nineties . As so many 'converts' have noted, once you have experienced the convenience of online access to your entire digital library through a graphical remote, you'll never go back!

It may not be perfect sound forever but it begins to approach perfect convenience forever and allows the rest of the family to enjoy the fruits of my hobby for really the first time ever which for me is priceless. That may or may not mean much to you now, but maybe in a few years... They were playing some music at nursery the other week and apparently Alice, my 4yo, asked "can you play 'Is This Love' because that's my favourite". That's my girl! First time I've cried in years...

Anyway, thanks again for a thumping good read.

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Quote:
They were playing some music at nursery the other week and apparently Alice, my 4yo, asked "can you play 'Is This Love' because that's my favourite". That's my girl! First time I've cried in years...

If my 4 year old asked for a Whitesnake song, I might cry, too! No, seriously, Bob Marley, right? But I don't get the not crying for years part. Aren't you married? Seen a Disney movie? Read DUP's posts? There's so many good reasons to just let the tears flow, man. And it gets the endorphins up to where I can take less meds.

struts
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Call me repressed, but neither THE BOSS, Disney nor DUP have reduced me to tears for a good long while. They generally evoke a palette of other, quite varied, emotions. Maybe it's the legacy of my 'traditional' upbringing.

As far as I can recall the last time I cried was when I found a slice of crispbread in the drawer of my dCS Verdi. I would like to think that would do it for most people...

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Quote:
As far as I can recall the last time I cried was when I found a slice of crispbread in the drawer of my dCS Verdi. I would like to think that would do it for most people...


Just reading this brings tears to my eyes . . .

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Quote:
Your interest in spinning silver discs, while endearing, is just sooooo nineteen nineties . As so many 'converts' have noted, once you have experienced the convenience of online access to your entire digital library through a graphical remote, you'll never go back!


It's unbelievable to think that one can now be nostalgic about spinning CDs!

Originally, my plan for source was to build a media server hooked directly to amp. I'd posted on the threads & actually you gave me a lot of great advices... I was pondering soundcards, like Lynx L22 or Echo Gina 3G... I still harbor a desire to set that up. I mean, the Playstation is always there & it's cheap. So getting a media server up should be no problem. In fact, after setting up the analog end, I might try that, but I really don't see myself doing until a year later or something. Kind of burning out from the frenzy of audio-thinking last 3 months & I'd rather get some great recordings & listen listen listen...

The thing is, I do have a Squeezebox 3 that I tried w/ Cambridge Audio 840's DACs. Sounds fantastic. But compared to the sound that I was getting through the Playstation, it wasn't as great. For example, the Squeezebox was fine playing piano discs made in the last few years, which have great, natural balance, i.e. Mitsuko Uchida's late Beethoven sonatas or Marc Andre Hamelin CDs by Hyperion. Beautiful sound, in fact. But for the discs from the 70s when they miked up too close to the piano - I'm thinking of Maurizio Pollini discs on DG - the sound via SB3 became brittle-y digital, while the Playstation's CD playback was noticeably smoother.

Maybe I should try a different DAC? I hear good things about non-upsampling... but I just want the music to sound whole & continuous, on the message. If I can find a DAC that I really like, I'd probably keep the SB3 & get a Drobo & stuff 4 gigs in there. Such an elegant alternative for all the plastic jewel cases lining your walls! Or maybe down the line, I'll try the Transporter, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they might update w/in 6 months or so. Don't want to jump in now.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate your suggestions, especially concerning DAC! (But maybe this post belongs in the Computer Audio thread...)

P.S. - My 3 yr old princess's favorite? "North American Scum" by LCD Soundsystem & Steve Reich's "Different Trains." Such a New Yorker...

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Quote:
Kind of burning out from the frenzy of audio-thinking last 3 months & I'd rather get some great recordings & listen listen listen...


Your priorities are irreproachable. In that case I recommend you pour a glass of your preferred beverage and cue up this. It is quite simply the best recording of a symphony orchestra I have ever heard emerge from the straitjacket of 16/44.1. As much as I hate to recommend style over substance (the programme is superbly performed but I have to confess it is not to my taste) the "being there-ness" is just jaw dropping.

And sorry, but while on the subject, for chamber music you MUST try this. My dear selfdivider, if it doesn't float your boat artistically and technically I shall personally refund you the $14.53 Caiman Bargain price via PayPal. And that is not an offer I make every day

Elk
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A wonderful recording, indeed!

linden518
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I'll take your word for it, guys, & take the Pepsi challenge. Will definitely try those recordings... very excited!

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Quote:
Hi, Bill. That's good to know about TT set-up. There are those who are detractors - AlexO! I'm looking at you! - but I'm determined to add analog to my system.

Mm, as to the cost, I'd prefer not to say, hope you can understand. But the Harbeth Super HL5 and Plinius 8150 were used. The Harbeths had less than 10 hrs on them, so they were virtually new & I'm still breaking them in. But I regret not going through the dealer as I don't have the warranty on them. As a newbie, it's kind of a shabby prospect, praying that nothing happens to them.

Two important rules about buying used that I learned: 1. If a dealer took his time to let you audition the equipment, and it's the gear you decide to settle on, you should really purchase from him. 2. Stay away from gray-market gear, i.e. equipments that have been obtained from overseas through improper channels. Otherwise, buying used is a fair game.

No problem, I understand about not disclosing costs, that's a bit personal.
Hope you enjoy vinyl in the future too. I've been playing a lot more vinyl lately, since I've been recording them (at full resolution, of course) onto CD-R's, for backup purposes, and so I can load them into my iTunes library too. Pretty sweet to hear my old "turntable only" music while I'm at the gym plugged into iPod.

CybaSumo
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thread bookmarked! i will share this to my friends at all.

SAS Audio
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I read Selfdivider and could not agree more to get accurate electronic components first.

I don't see how one can get things right unless the electronics are not right. I think it is very difficult to pick the right speaker and get the room acoustics to match the system correctly.

I like the back and forth approach like you did at the store. Nice job.

Actually, if one had the equipment and time, the best approach would be to choose the preamplifer and ICs first, since they are the only pieces that can actually be tested vs a wire or "nothing" so to speak. (Requires multiple sophicated listening test procedures and is very time consuming, taking weeks or months.)

Getting the preamplifier and ICs accurate eliminates 3 variables from the system equation.

Anyway, I think Selfdivider set a good example by taking the time to audition and hopefully see the max capabilities of the electronics at a store, what they could do.

I would be careful what one reads and sees recommended by outside sources (I am not talking about Stereophile or BFS but other online rags from first hand experience).

Take care and thanks for the post Selfdivider.

linden518
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Thanks, SAS. Glad to know there's one more vote of confidence for the way I approached this system building. Just checked out your site... VERY curious about your preamps.

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Quote:
Thanks, SAS. Glad to know there's one more vote of confidence for the way I approached this system building. Just checked out your site... VERY curious about your preamps.

Your welcome. It took a few years to come up with the same conclusion, so you were probably ahead of me. But once I got the preamps and ICs down, the rest was back and forth source, amp and speakers. This is when I really made some headway. Would have been X times harder if I had to juggle all the components.

My preamplifiers are designed differently than what many teach and preach. Most of their teachings are just guess work and hype anyway. I don't copy old designs, or even new designs, but my own designs.

linden518
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How a Newbie Found His Turntable :

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=44894&Main=44804#Post44894

fredNH
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illuminating reading here on component selection -- tempting for one who is trying to rehab his old 1962 system -- and now wonders if it is best to buy NEW all over.

Throw away the old DYNAKITS, Thorens turntable/ GradoLabArm/ Shure pickup and 10"Tannoy in custom-built 17x27x34 housings? Sure sounded great up to 1975.

What bugs me is the DynaCo70 and Preamp recently were professionally checked, but now feeding into space-saving Boston Accustics CR7 I have huge distortion, and no signal generator and scope to track the source or mismatch.

Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Fred clueless in NH

Jan Vigne
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Dynakits were a contributing factor to the demise of factory authorized kits. It's surprising your components have lasted this long as cold solder joints and poor workmanship on the part of the assembler were common to home built kits.

I certainly wouldn't be all that disturbed by the failure after a "professional" check out, most problems of age cannot be predicted and can only be prevented - if at all - by a near complete rebuild of the entire component. Even under those conditions you are now dealing with an electronic component approaching 50 years of age on those passive parts.

The ST70's and most of the vintage Dyna tube gear have good reputations and are sought after on the used market. Finding someone to perform troubleshooting and repairs is less common today but, if you have a technician willing and able to do the job, then you might consider getting the components repaired since a working tube amp brings more money than a non-working unit. Discuss with the tech how you might proceed with your system. I would be hesitant to absolutely trust a tech who tells you "they don't build them like this anymore" as a reason to continue on with the Dynas. They do build them as they did in the old days and even better in some cases - but the new units won't sell for $69. Vintage Dynas are worth keeping if you are comitted to their foibles.

Should you get the idea to combine those Dyna tube amps with modern speakers, keep in mind far too many speakers are designed for today's market where solid state "watts are cheap". Watts aren't cheap for tube gear if you wish to maintain quality and most speakers are not designed for the high output impedance of a vintage tube amplifier. You'll either need to be knowledgeable about a potential speaker's compatability with a high output impedance/low damping factor tube amp or forsake most modern speakers in favor of the internet market meant specifically for tube amps.

The Thorens is more questionable I would say. It does, however, have considerable vintage appeal and that sort of value is quite often based on the ability of a component to get to the heart of the music. You might read Art Dudley's columns regarding his restoration and updating of a vintage Thorens in the Stereophile "columns" archives (click the tab at the top of the page).


Quote:
... 10"Tannoy in custom-built 17x27x34 housings? Sure sounded great up to 1975.

What happened in 1975?

If the units went into storage for long periods of time, this dosn't bode well for their current performance. Even after professional restoration parts have dried out and ossified. A top down, chassis off restoration is in order at this point and those don't come cheap. The Tannoys still also hold a good reputation and probably have some life left in them, if not as main speakers, certainly as "Sunday drivers" in another room.

I would certainly investigate a repair/restoration of all of the components by a competent technician. The main issue IMO would be finding a truly qualified tech for all of these components. They do exist and are found without too much dificulty in larger cities. If your reside in the hinterlands, then you might want to add this to your overall consideration of cost and inconvenience in restoring this system. Ask for an estimate to bring everything back to best as possible condition and don't be surprised if, once the tech gets into a component, the costs rise or parts availability issues force delays.

While the tech is working on the estimate, do two things. 1) Get on the internet and check vintage prices on your gear. If you have any problems or questions, try calling a retailer such as Audio Classics. Used gear is worth what it is worth to the owner and the potential buyer, so fixed dollar amounts are difficult to reach but you should get an idea of whether this gear is worth the restoration costs to you.

2) Go out and listen to some current systems and weigh the sound of what you own against the possible cost of a new replacement system. Things don't sound as they did in 1961 in most cases. As someone who owns some 1960's equipment used as a main system I can't say they have all changed for the better. Take into consideration a pair of vintage AR3a's which sold for what? $275 in 1961 would be the equivalent to a $2k speaker today.

http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

(I just found out my 1967 $119 electric guitar now sells for about $900 to $1,200 - not inflated dollars but the actual instrument. Some of that is pure nostalgia for what you had and sold when you got over all your kid stuff and some is the unique appeal of this particular instrument. A 1961 Epiphone Sheraton in natural finish was being sold at an asking price of $24,500 as it is, according to the seller, the only natural finish Sheraton built that year and therefore the world's entire stock of 1961 natural finish Sheratons. If you decide to sell your gear, try taking it to a vintage instrument retailer. They understand tubes and vintage "tone" and can often get you a very good price.)

There are some very good speakers you could own for a $2k investment. Back in 1961 the audiophile of the day had never thought of terms such as "soundstage" and "PRaT" applied to audio systems. On the other hand, when there were no such things as soundstage and imaging to consider from an audio system there was nothing for the system to do other than concentrate on making the music itself the most interesting thing about owning hifi.

fredNH
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THANK YOU JAN

this is hugely helpful and a great starting point.

the enthusiasm of people here makes all the difference -- got to get a new system going after all those years of not playing my jazz and classical records.

thanks again,
fredNH

ncdrawl
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Mark Voigt is the MAN for Dynaco/Dynakit stuff.

Give him a call at (615)866-7170

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...part=3&vc=1

tomjtx
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Audio by Van Alstine is well known for Dyna restoration and mods.
Check out his forum on AudioCircle

chrischavarro
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hey guys sorry if i highjacked your topic just got an acoustic research ar-1 was just wondering if anyone might know what its worth?

Jim Tavegia
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Mint pair for about $450

http://www.mcintoshaudio.com/

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