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January 23, 2008 - 9:54am
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Audio Advisor sells cambridge stuff. The others, I dont know of any sites that sell them.
They all charge list price. This is one of the long running contentions I have with the high end industry.
By way of history, you need to know that Alex would prefer to work for free and expects all others to do so as well.
In the meantime, the value of his time is marked up substantially over its real value. Thus, he will happily provide a discount on his wages of up to 60% on request.
We all hope that his employer hasn't realized this yet.
I don't think you have any idea just how close to the bullseye you are with that remark. And no, my employer hasn't realized this yet.
What's his name and telephone number?
pfffftttt
Directory assistance couldn't locate him. Are you sure that's spelled with four f's and four t's?
Apparently there is occasional truth in shameless silliness.
What About Demo items?
I do agree though Alex. List price is socialist bullshit. Let the dealer decide the price, and let them sell online. Why not, then it would really come down to customer service, I think.
This cannot be right because I regularly buy new equipment from local dealers well below list price and sometimes below internet prices. For instance, I recently bought a Pro-ject RM10 TT with a Sumiko Blackbird installed for $2880. That beat any online price that I found.
Dave
Socialist?
How so?
It seems like a market decision. They don't have a right to price things how they please? A private company?
Haven't we been through this before? Haven't we all agreed that the dealerships are set up in such a way as to avoid competing on price? Haven't we discussed at length that the zones set up by the manufacturers ensure that dealers don't compete on price? I thought we covered all this already. My impression was that the only point of contention was that some of the posters thought that this was the only way for the high end industry to survive, while others thought that the hi-fi industry has to compete on price just like everyone else.
But they do "have to compete on price, just like everyone else." Free enterprise, baby!
We have a free commerce system in place. There are no government subsidies for Hi Fi companies, we are not exactly held hostage by their products, there are no Hi Fi monopolies, so why the friggin' crap about pricing?
No likey = no buyee.
If the marketplace is to be given any credit, then the pricing model some companies use must reflect what they think is the best business strategy. Right? Why else would they set up the business model that way?
Crying about a company not giving you the discount you deserve is tedious. Just don't buy the product if the price does not equate with the value you assign to it.
You have no civil right to any certain discount. You are certainly right, we have been through this before, but you can't seem to come to terms with the idea of a business not doing things your way. Think about it, the discount you insist is rightfully yours is so pitiful, that dealers actually tell you to get lost. Perfect example of the marketplace at work! With any luck, they will learn to identify you as a time parasite and ask you not to kick the tires, too!
Hell no, we never agreed to any such lie.
Some dealers have an *sshole meter. When the meter goes off, then they don't offer a deal; therefore, *ssholes never get good deals. Draw your own conclusion.
Dave
No, no one agreed with you. You eventually gave up. Now you want to welch on that deal too?
My impression was the point of contention remained your unwillingness to understand that selling a component at 50 points was not the same as doubling the price. Have you read ST's column this month? You also felt the brick and mortar dealer owed you a listening space and then owed you the same price as some schmuck who would blow the product out of their garage with no commitment to service. I believe there was also some disagreement about whether looking in the dealer's cost book when he wasn't in the room. I said it was unethical and you said you didn't care because the dealer was out to screw you anyway.
And there was the crap about how you were owed a better hifi than you could afford.
There seems to be more disagreement than agreement about that thread.
as we rehash this argument, let me offer this for consideration. many of the best makers only permit a select number of dealers to carry their product. my opinion is that there are several reasons for this. first, the maker provides the dealer training in the setup, operation and troubleshooting of their product. second, they want their products demonstrated in a quality setting to the best possible advantage. third, when a customer returns an item to a dealer with a problem and the dealer is on the phone with them trying to figure it out, the maker will know who he is talking to and that they are on the same page because there is a relationship and they speak the same language. and yes, the maker and the dealer want to make a profit and they both believe that for the reasons just listed, they have the best chance to do so by demonstrating the value of those high priced products but neither will profit if the experience as well as the equipment for the customer is not of high value. many times that value is not known until you have a problem and if you collect enough of this stuff, you will have a problem at some point.
also, sometimes, when you have a good relationship with a dealer, something unusual happens, he offers you a break on the price. when i bought my amp and cd player, he gave me a "system discount" even though i had never mentioned it. i have not bought anything from anyone else since.
i have a contrary view as well. i think the internet is turning many newer people on to this hobby and that is a good thing. being able to buy the chinese made products online at the prices offered will reinvigorate our hobby. some of those items will serve their buyers for years, others will get a taste and want to move up to naim, ayre, creek, arcam and others sold at traditional dealers. if i was again young and tight of budget, i would be very excited about this opportunity.
but i do not want to see naim sold via internet. if i have decided i can afford their products, i will pay what the dealer asks and take full advantage of his expertise and his service after the sale.
i have no problem with buying used on the internet either. its buyer beware as it has always been when you buy used. you give up the security of a warranty for a price point, same as it ever was. the internet just gets you more potential buyers (a good thing).
so, there is a nitch for everyone.
They do not compete on price. It's not free marketplace. Once you start putting restrictions on geographical competition, price competitiveness goes out the window. The manufacturers set up dealerships so that there is no dealer selling the same product within 50 miles. That's not free marketplace.
I don't, but then I get a self righteous sermon from self appointed moralists.
I'm not asking for a right to a discount. I just want that there are no contracts restricting dealerships to geographical areas. I want no contracts restricting sales over the internet. I don't think that's too much to ask.
For the most part, once you get beyond the four largest cities in the US, the rest of the geographical distribution of potential buyers for high end audio products falls off dramatically as do the number of high end dealers. The seventh largest city in the US can only support one Lamboughini dealership. Why would you think that same city could support more than one Audio Research dealership? If you are not willing to drive the fifty miles to shop competitively, then you don't really want that product - you just want the discount. And you're willing to screw the dealer who demonstarted the product in the first place.
We have been through all of this before. You still want want you want and everyone else be damned.
If a dealer knows another shop in the area sells a certain line, they probably aren't inclined to pick up that line. There is no competitive advantage for ethical dealerships in handling a product you can only sell by discounting, and discounting and then discounting more off the price. People like you won't take the first discount offer, they'll run back over to the first dealer and ask for a larger discount. They won't take that price either, they'll run back to the other dealer and so on and so on until someone finally kicks them out of their shop. Been there, done that! If you would stop for just one moment and consider the dealer's viewpoint, you would see the advantage of competing with a different product rather than selling the one line that AlexO wants in five different shops in NYC. I just don't think you can ever get beyond AlexO's viewpoint.
For the OP,
Go to the audio circle forums to find not just online dealers but direct sales online manufacturers.
There are some excellent speaker builders, amp designers, source designers and modders.
Most of them offer a 30 day trial. There are numerous reviews and you can narrow down your choices.
You can likely build a better system for a fraction of the price this way.
YOU CAN WANT THAT - BUT NO ONE HAS ANY OBLIGATION TO MAKE THOSE WANTS COME TRUE.
EXCUSE THE CAPS, I'M NOT SHOUTING, JUST COMMENTING INSIDE A QUOTE SO TRYING TO MAKE IT CLEAR
Well, Alex, we live in a socialist society. Auto manufacturers tell dealers what the suggested retail price is, and what incentives to offer, and the dealer can deal on an individual price as they see fit. They limit the amount of dealers within a geographical area.
Franchise restaurants generally tell their owners of the individual restaurants where they can set up shop, and how much they charge for the food. Been to a McDonald's lately?
Do you peruse automobile websites grousing about dealers? Fact is, high end dealers sell high end products for less than retail all the time. I suspect that if you made friends with a good dealer, did more than callously waste that dealer's time and resources, that dealer would sell you product for less than retail. On the other hand, if you complain about markup, simply see the dealer as an opportunity for you to kick the tires and buy elsewhere, why should the dealer give you any consideration by selling you something for less?
I generally charge clients who repeatedly hire me or who refer me clients less than those I see once and never see again. It is called good business, not socialism. Seems to me you may be too shortsighted to know how to get the deals, or you do not have enough business savvy. Either way, that ain't the dealers fault.
Would you please stop this crap? This is someone with low ethical bearings trying to project their failings onto someone else. This is no better than calling dissent against a war the act of a traitor. It is the last harbour for a scroundrel. Attempting to make us the wrong doers here is pathetic. You are the one who has consistently raised this issue. If you don't want a sermon, either change your behavior or shut up about it.
What you did was unethical. What you want is unethical. What you want is simply not good business practice. You repeat and repeat the same thing over and over even after numerous people have argued effectively that what you want is unethical/unwise. That you now want to blame us for calling you out on such behavior is ridiculous.
Even more of a reason to allow internet sales.
That's an asinine statement.
The question at hand is not the dealer's decision to set up shop in a certain area, rather contracts imposed by the manufacturers to restrict dealerships within a certain geographical area.
This isn't about you. You don't have to personalize this. It is a consumer's prerogative to get the best deal possible, just as it's a dealer's prerogative to make as much as they can on a sale. It's a negotiation.
I know the dealer's viewpoint. It is up to the dealer to ensure that they represent their viewpoint during a negotiation. As a consumer, I represent my own viewpoint and it's my priority to represent it during a purchasing negotiation. I don't understand why playing one dealer off the other vis-a-vis pricing is a horrible thing? It's a negotiation. We all use whatever tools we have. What I look for is a level playing field. Geographical restrictions skew the level playing field in dealer's favor.
Thank you for that sermon, Mr. Self Appointed Moralist. I think you've outdone yourself this time around by labeling not just my behavior, but my desires as unethical. I think you're wasting away doing whatever it is you're doing. You should be out there spreading the Word.
See?! A half dozen people post saying you are wrong. Yet you still scream the same old stuff over and over and over. You are a broken record and saying it over and over and over isn't going to make it any more ethical or wise for the dealer to change.
What stops you from getting this, Alex? And don't give me some BS about negotiations and fair deals? That isn't what you want. And we have been through this before. Unfortunately, I feel we'll probably go through all this again.
I'm sorry, have you seen one of these contracts? Or is this like knowing Bigfoot exists? Please answer that one question, Alex; have you seen one of these contracts? No anecdotal evidence and no "knowing" they exist. Have you seen one of these contracts? You're quite good at sneaking a peek at the dealer's business papers while they are out of the room. Is this one you have actually seen?
What you are suggesting is the manufacturer (the seller in this case) would go to all the dealers within the surrounding area of their one appointed dealer and make those dealers who are not handling the manufacturer's product sign a contract that states they will not carry this manufacturer's product. The manufacturer's selected dealership signs no such agreement that restricts the manufacturer from selling to anyone else. They can't. The seller gets to sell to whoever they prefer to sell to. The dealer, when they become the seller, gets to sell to whoever they prefer. If they prefer not to sell to you, that is their perogative. If they choose to not sell outside their "geographical region", possibly it is because they have some ethics about how they do business. They understand how another dealer operates in order to make a simple profit. You do not understand that, Alex, and you make no attempt to try to understand it. You simply scream that you aren't getting what you want and it isn't fair. Gimme a break!
Now, Alex, that is the logic for your argument and it is impossible to follow to a realistic conclusion. What don't you get about this? You make this stuff up just to suit your desire not to be 1) wrong and 2) unethical. By projecting the unethical behavior onto someone else you feel you can absolve yourself of an ethical lapse.
A half dozen people here say you can't get away with that.
I was raised Catholic.
Come on, Alex. Facts are facts. If what you desire is taken to the point of action, then yes, by any moral code, those desires are just as unethical as your actions. It seems having that pointed out to you really gets under your skin.
Ah! That explains everything!
As far as the contracts are concerned, more than one dealer has told me this, but no, I haven't actually seen the contracts myself.
So your "evidence" is purely ancedotal and second hand. And we are supposed to believe someone who has admitted to not caring whether or not their behavior is unethical.
Uh-huh!
Let's try it this way, Alex. Which dealers told you which manufacturers went around getting dealers to sign contracts that state they, the dealer, will not sell that manufacturer's products?
If you have doubts about what I say, why did you ask me then? If my statements are suspect, then take them as such and don't ask me questions. I assume that if you ask me something, then you really want to know what I have to say and my answer has merit. Furthermore, try sticking to the subject at hand. You have a tendency to divert the discussion. You always seem to talk about MY character. I'm flattered with your fascination of my character, but that's really the topic we're discussing.
I asked simply because I didn't believe you'd seen these contracts that you are so absolutely certain exist. I didn't believe you'd seen these contracts upon which you wish to hang your entire argument. If you haven't seen them, if they do not exist, then you have no facts to argue and no leg to stand on.
You claim they are fact. But you admit you've never seen them. They are in fact a legend in your mind. And legends are seldom based upon fact.
You claim dealers have told you they exist. But they don't.
Ya'see, Alex, it's one of those old school tactics that you use when you think the other guy is BS'ing you.
You ask him.
Then when he can't provide proof for any of his assertions, you've pretty much proved him to be untrustworthy. Some might say a fabricator. Some might even call that person a liar. I've done none of the above because you've provided all the proof I require for anyone else to decide who should be believed and who should not and whether your assertion bears any merit.
You're right. It is what we are discussing when you make it the topic we are discussing. Remember, Alex, you are the one who posted, "Haven't we all agreed that the dealerships are set up in such a way as to avoid competing on price?" Which brought several denials of that fabricated assertion. So, please, don't now accuse me of changing the very subject you introduced. If you debate by way of fabrication, that does call into question your character. If you ignore facts, you aren't likely to be the person we trust to provide the truth.
None of us agreed to your statement. You have not seen the contracts. The contracts do not exist. What are we to make of the character of the person who says the opposite?
Alex, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'll let you provide all the proof I require. Now, do you really want to continue this game?
Jan,
Some manufacturers do have limitations on who they let carry their line.
Some of my dealer friends have said this. Some try hard to pick up a particular line in a city but may lose out to another dealer.
I suspect many of us have dealer friends who shared that kind of story.
I don't see anything wrong with this but it does exist.
If a dealer sells outside his territory he runs the risk of losing the line if the manufacturer finds out.
And no, I haven't seen contracts
I have no reason to disbelieve the dealers who have shared these stories.
As an example how many cities have more than 1 Wilson dealer?
I know Dallas only has one
I never denied nor implied a manufacturer doesn't have the right to limit to whom they sell their product. I've stated as much if not exactly that. And dealers have the right to choose to whom they sell their products and services. Any high end manufacturer who did not exercise some control over which dealerships represented their products would be foolish. However, this is not what Alex is arguing.
This again is not what Alex is presenting as fact. It has nothing to do with why an out of area dealer won't sell to Alex. And those dealers who do not get the line are then not asked or required to sign a contract stating they will not sell the manufacturer's products. I think if you truly believe this part of Alex's argument to be true, you might want to investigate the black market business of audio. Manufacturers are constantly on the look out for dealerships selling unauthorized products. This is done for the protection of everyone involved since black market products have no warranty attached to their sale.
The manufacturer cannot directly cut off product simply because a dealer sells outside a particular area. A client might have a legitimate reason for not doing business with a dealer in his local area. Let's say a client has done business with a particular dealer for years and has now moved out of that dealer's area. As long as the long time dealer doesn't actively encourage the client to audition product at the new dealer's shop and then sell product at a lower cost with the intention of undercutting the new dealer, most dealers and manufacturers wouldn't object to such a sale. In Dallas, quite a few high end clients prefer to shop in New York or L.A. and never set foot in a local shop. While the Dallas dealers would prefer to have that business, there's not much they can say to a manufacturer to make the client come to the Dallas dealership.
If the client can persuade the out of region dealer to sell to him for this reason, the manufacturer cannot cut off product to any dealer for such a transaction. To do so would be illegal and a restriction of free trade. The manufacturer would possibly face a fine for attempting such poor business practices. It's unlikely any manufacturer would risk the possibility of a fine and the bad press this would engender if this was brought to court. Dealers and manufacturers generally police themself for problems with renegade or just plain bad sellers.
If the out of area dealer makes a habit of finding "disgruntled" clients from multiple areas across the country or simply undercutting the price of a legitimate dealer over the phone or internet, the manufacturer can issue a warning about stepping on other dealer's toes. If the dealer then persists in selling into other areas where the manufacturer feels they have solid representation, the manufacturer can find ways to slow the flow of goods and services to the offending dealer or in some other fashion disrupt their business with that dealership. This will eventually get the dealer's attention and often they will be the one to drop the line or they will straighten out their business practices. Dealer Agreements/contracts are up for renewal at regular time periods. If a manufacturer feels their products have not been fairly represented by any specific dealer, that dealer's contract can be allowed to lapse. Therefore, manufacturers have their own ways to weed out unscrupulous dealerships. None of these business practices are unique to the audio business and similar methods of policing the industry can be found in the food, liquor, furniture, clothing, jewelry and multiples of other industries.
Most dealers will not step into another authorized dealers's business area out of common courtesy between small business owners. There will always be the exceptions to those dealers who have a degree of ethics and pride in what they do. But a manufacturer cannot pull a line from a dealer simply because they sell a product outside of their local area. Federal law has not allowed such practices for over fifty years. However, like the alligators in the public sewage systems across the country, the rumor persists when it benefits someone's perception of how they are being screwed by a dealer. To be fair, it is also a convenient white lie that serves the dealer when necessary. Rather than hassle with a caller who merely wants a discount, it is an acceptable line to say the dealer would loose the manufacturer's products. If a dealer makes a habit of shady transactions, the manufacturer might not renew a contract or might take some more immediate action but they cannot pull product for a single sale. Most dealers simply don't want the hassle of being marked as an unethical dealership. Almost all dealers value their relationship with any manufacturer since this gets them the perks of being a dealer in good standing. It will, in the long run, cost the typical dealer money to make a single lower than average profit sale out of their area. That's why most dealers simply don't want business they didn't earn.
That's why neither you nor Alex have ever seen the sort of contracts Alex believes dealerships must sign just so they can screw him over.
Whoa! Time out! I started this thread by simply asking if anyone knew of any online dealers selling certain products. Thanks to those of you that directly answered my inquiry.
Since this thread has subsequently taken on different turn, I thank you & bid you all "goodbye".
Hey, there.
Sorry that you unknowingly threw yourself into a standing debate.
There are those around here who feel that dealer pricing is fair, given the demands of the industry and the prevailing consumer dynamic. I agree with these people. If you make use of a dealer's time and resources to listen to a product, it is not ethical to then buy that product online, where the retailers have no investment in you. It is similarly uncool to use online dealers as leverage to drive the price down.
There are others who take an entirely consumer-centric view and argue that all is fair in love and hi-fi since the dealers likewise are only concerned with the bottom line. I'm not saying there isn't logic in this argument, but I believe it ignores or trivializes some important points, such as: 1. A healthy dealer relationship can save you money over time, and help you avoid aggravation. 2. Hi-fi is a tough sell 3. It costs money to run a dealership, etc.
That being said, if all you want is a price, then online shopping can deliver that.
I urge you not to use a dealer to "kick the tires", then buy online for the cheap price.
Audiophile Liquidator has some Bryston gear up for sale right now. If the price is right, then you should buy it online before utilizing a dealer. The price is low enough that you could A-gon it for about what you paid.
http://www.audiophileliquidator.net/product_info.php?products_id=3528
Regards,
Dealer agreements have changed over the years and the manufacturer's warranty is now solely through the manufacturer and not through the dealer. If you "kick the tires" at one shop and then buy from another, the first dealer is under no obligation to provide any warranty services to you. This means a dealer doesn't even have to answer questions or take delivery of your unit to ship back to the manufacturer if you didn't buy the product from that shop. Many dealers will do so as a courtesy to the manufacturer but this is not part of their "official" agreement with the manufacturer. You will be required to show proof of purchase for any serice performed so the dealer will see where you made the purchase. It may not be a big deal to you when you are buying gear and many people don't consider the possibility of needing service at the time they make a purchase but service is one of the things you get when you are straight with a dealer. If you abuse a dealer, they have the right to do the same to you.
All of the above are valid points. However, consider the price of the item when making your purchase. If you're saving a few thousand on your initial purchase, that may warrant bypassing the service which you may or may not need. You can also contact the manufacturer directly when in need of service rather than going through a dealer.
As far as kicking the tires, my personal opinion on that is that kicking the tires and shopping around are a cost of doing business for any business. So, I see nothing wrong with that at all.
As far as online places are concerned, I find Audiogon to be one of the best places to shop. People who sell stuff on Audiogon take care of their equipment and most of the time you'll find stuff in condition that rivals brand new equipment.
For new stuff, I like HCMAudio and Spearitsound to be very good places to shop.
Erik's reply is well-taken. I am aware of the pros & cons of this topic (I was an academic & forensic economist for 25 years). And, besides...I have thick skin. I guess that I inadvertently stepped on a hornet's nest.
There seems to be a presumption that internet pricing is lower than dealer pricing. I don't find that to be the case. Of course, if you never build a relationship with a dealer, then you'll never know. It helps not to be an a**hole.
Dave