Quote:
Surface noise bothers me, lack of frequency extension, narrow dynamic range, lack of envelopment.

The first three surprise me as I have heard a lot of vinyl playback without these issues. I certainly don't argue with your experience however.

What is "lack of envelopment"?

This debate amazes me. I think both are wonderful and really enjoy both in my system. Before I bought a really fine digital player I wasn't so sure, but now that I have the Playback Designs, I'm equally happy with either. The anti-digital guys haven't heard good digital, me thinks, and the anti-analog guys haven't heard good vinyl playback.

I've got some good enough LPs and good enough CDs and SACDs that I think a listener would be hard press to identify which source, if I could hide the switch from source to source from them.

They're both wonderful, IMHO, when done well, and bad digital is really bad and bad vinyl is really bad when done poorly.

I agree that not so long ago, almost all digital was weak, if not pure bad, but that's really changed a lot.

Dave

Quote:
I think both are wonderful and really enjoy both in my system. . . . The anti-digital guys haven't heard good digital, me thinks, and the anti-analog guys haven't heard good vinyl playback.

yes, to both.

Quote:

Quote:
When on is looking for the best sonic reproduction that is widely available today

Vinyl -- Works

Digital -- Doesn't.

Not much else can be said.

That's debatable at best.

Right up there with debating folk who believe the pop religion of global warming. Debate does not enter into the discussion....

"This debate amazes me. I think both are wonderful and really enjoy both in my system. Before I bought a really fine digital player I wasn't so sure, but now that I have the Playback Designs, I'm equally happy with either. The anti-digital guys haven't heard good digital, me thinks, and the anti-analog guys haven't heard good vinyl playback."

I think you're right, but analogue is just more fun. Plus, for some of us, it's the VAST bulk of our collection and so of course we'll always side with that form of playback. Still, I DO like the whole package, and for me, the art, the packaging and the process is more fun. When I decide to play a record with my little 2 year old son, it's way more fun to put on that LP than put in a CD. It's actually cool to have to stop and turn it over for the 2nd side- it's just more engaging I guess. And of course he enjoys the bigger pictures of an LP cover than the little plastic box of a CD, which he hardly notices.

Quote:

When you get right down to it, neither of them work that well if live music is your reference. When you add it all up they both have many shortcomings.

Exactly! Nicely said.

I am wondering, though, how we can be 60 years into the LP era and someone can call it a fad.

CD is at, what, 25 years?

With these new digital formats, they are obsolete by the time we start talking about the newest and greatest.

Call LP nostalgia, if you will, but it is certainly less of a fad than the last 5 digital recording protocols.

The LP is not a fad, it's over hyped marketing campaign of a "resurgence".....comprede' vu'? The reason digital formats, keep updating is it's constatnly getting work done, and improved, didn't you yourself say at some point, or someone did, that even standard CD playback has improved over teh stuff from 25 years ago....digital keeps getting better and better, in tv, digital cameras, videos, and yes the 60 year old LP, is still the 60 year old stylus grinding out some wiggles, , but digital keeps improving in data storage, etc. Analog is DEAD, in all things electronic, controllers, audio media, it's over Johnny. Even in lighting, digital is it, no more analog controlers, ballasts, they have been improved with digital technology.

Oh, DUmP. I thank the heavens that you haven't yet gotten the carpal tunnel syndrome from typing the same crap every day, every hour.

Wow... I never heard the "dimmer switch" argument before. Well then, that settles it for me. If my balast and dimmer switch is digital then my audio source playback DEFINITELY should be too! How can you aregue with such elegant and pointy-headed logic? Analoge hasn't changed for 60 years, but digital just keeps improving- almost daily! Amazing...I just had no idea...

Oh, and that hack Steven Spielberg, who still prefers actual film stock to digital? An idiot obviously, stuck in teh stone-age. He's needs to get with teh program like his bud George Lucas and get his idea on a hard drive!

Film stock, even Kodak has gone digital, do you ever read any business articles? Film stock? It has gone where recording tape has gone, it's there, but less and less. Quantegy gave up for teh 2nd time. Film stock, are you for real? Maybe they should also go back to arc lamps for street lighting and making movies under, instead of digital controlled light, and effects. Film stock? Maybe hand crawn animation too for Disney, why would they use digital processing, let's draw each image one by one and by hand? And take a photo of each image.

And my friends who are photographers..think film, in the vast majority of instances -is superior to digital photography...except for the processing issues. They haven't touched analog film in some time, and they don't miss the issues of processing.

But..if they had to capture the best image possible..they invariably say film. But..we are talking medium format Hasselblad (70mm film)and the like- the best that analog film can do.

However, due to the vagaries of the idea of 'taking multiple shots' to try and 'capture' the one subject or action, digital wins. No contest.

The analogy of digital/analog music compared to the digital/analog film debate does not carry through, though. the two technologies are different enough, that the comparison falls apart on the minutiae, which is where we as audiophiles, sit.

Yeah giant cameras, with superior lens, lens still matter even in digital cameras, but now for $300 you can get a heck of a camera, with ease of use. 5 years ago taht same camera was over $1K. Go check out what's left in a good 35 mm camera, and look at the prices...Digital keeps bringing down the price, and making things better. Look at teh portable video cameras, from 10 years ago, to what they can do, and what they are priced at now, again, DIGITAL electronics, making it happen. Let's lug around the old film cameras, even teh old video tape cameras, while getting teh voice on a cassette recorder or mini Nagra tape, yeah, real good idea. Digital is making it happen, just like it brought down teh price of ABS systems in regular cars, when it was a multi thousand option in expesnive cars, same with ESP, GPS, digital, if moving things forward, listening to 33 1/3 is stuck at one speed. There is nothing superior about anything from analog, nothing at all. Even lighting has progressed due to digital electronics, in controllers, ballast, are way up, ease of use. Some nudnick claimed candle light was better, yupper, to keep the firedept in business.

Quote:

Oh, and that hack Steven Spielberg, who still prefers actual film stock to digital? An idiot obviously, stuck in teh stone-age. He's needs to get with teh program like his bud George Lucas and get his idea on a hard drive!

Hang on there, let's not confuse the issues here. If you're talking about using different mediums as means of artistic expression, that's one thing. If you're talking about accuracy in reproduction, that's something completely different.

Steven Spielberg likes film because it has the color palette and the look that he likes, that goes well with his vision of what he wants to say and how he wants to say it.

So, if you were a musician, and you decided on using let's say tube equipment throughout the playing, recording and mixing process because you want a particular sound, that's your vision and your artistic expression.

However, if we're talking about creating a playback system that accurately reproduces the sound which the band strives for in their recording studio, then that would be something completely different.

Your choice of equipment is dictated by your goals. If accuracy is your goal, that's one set of equipment. If artistic expression or particular sound characteristics are your goal, then a different set of equipment would be the right choice.

Quote:

I think you're right, but analogue is just more fun. Plus, for some of us, it's the VAST bulk of our collection and so of course we'll always side with that form of playback. Still, I DO like the whole package, and for me, the art, the packaging and the process is more fun. When I decide to play a record with my little 2 year old son, it's way more fun to put on that LP than put in a CD. It's actually cool to have to stop and turn it over for the 2nd side- it's just more engaging I guess. And of course he enjoys the bigger pictures of an LP cover than the little plastic box of a CD, which he hardly notices.

I totally agree. I just got back from Japan, where ritual is very highly honored and expected. Playing an LP well can be just such a ritual. It must be done well.

I remember when LP was basically the only choice and most users did not "get" the ritual thing. They just left their LPs laying around in stacks, gathering dust and getting scratched, then they'd grab one with pizza on their hands and wonder why it sounded so horrible.

The non-ritual people now have peanut butter on their CDs, or CDs rolling around in the floorboard of their cars and look to mp3s as a great improvement because of the lack of physical media UNTIL they run the iPod through the washer!!!

Audiophiles, in general, buy into the ritual, at least taking care of their media, even if it's not analog. LPs are one of the highest forms of audio ritual, right up there with spending days polishing your sword with a special cloth. Somehow it's very comforting.

Dave

"LPs are one of the highest forms of audio ritual"

To tell the truth, "the ritual" is one of the biggest reasons that I find myself leaving the vinyl fold. I find the ritual to be a major pain in the butt these days. Especially running a loud record vacuum.

Quote:
"LPs are one of the highest forms of audio ritual"

To tell the truth, "the ritual" is one of the biggest reasons that I find myself leaving the vinyl fold. I find the ritual to be a major pain in the butt these days. Especially running a loud record vacuum.

Ahh so Grasshopper. We may wander from the path, but the needs of the soul lead us back.

Dave

"Steven Spielberg likes film because it has the color palette and the look that he likes, that goes well with his vision of what he wants to say and how he wants to say it."

Yes, that's true, but to my, and many others ears, the LP gets closer to what feel is the truth of music. It's just more like what I think it should sound like. Still, as I've said before, I'm not anti-digital as much as pro analogue. It's works for me, makes me happy. What works for you is great too. I honestly don't get why people spend so much time dissing one format or other, but that's human nature I guess...

Quote:
I honestly don't get why people spend so much time dissing one format of the, but that's human nature I guess...

I think it has to do with the categorical nature of proclamations: eg. "Vinyl is better than digital" or "CD is the superior format" or "My peepee is the biggest peepee"

Stuff like that makes people get their panties in a bunch.

Hey...Dave's the one who brought up polishing your sword!

RG

how do they get those geishas into the record sleave?

Quote:

Quote:
how do they get those geishas into the record sleave?

They do very well because I have my all my suits custom made in Hong Kong with large flies.

The large flies are just attracted to the smell.