Isn't Crown one of the, many, companies now under the Harmon umbrella?

In terms of power isn't a fair analogy of comparing well water, tap water, Brita filtered water, and excellent bottled water. Not all watts are the same. They may amplitude measure the same, but certainly do not sound the same.

You're right, Jim, not all watts are created equal.

Fore a brief period I had a Crown ower amp and a McIntosh integrated. Both great units but what a mis-match...it was like putting a Corvette motor in a Rolls-Royce.

Crown amps are indeed tough, but have a harsh sound. There are trade offs; lots of inexpensive power sounds like lots of inexpensive power. But PA amps are nearly bulletproof.

DUP is comfortable with this sound as his reference standard is live performances of amplified instruments, particularly electric guitar based blues. If you want to recapture this sound at home, using the same amps as used as PA sound reinforcement amps makes excellent sense.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this if this is the sound one prefers. However, if you use live unamplified acoustic instruments as your reference you will probably be very disappointed.

Thank you, Elk...that's what I meant.
The Crowen was brute force, raw power and great for a live performance of high energy music. The McIntosh handled the more subtle tones enabling one to hear them...when connected to a more refined amp.

Yes, DUP, watts are watts and horse power is horse power but the difference is how these energies are translated. A luxury automobile may have the same power as a hi-performance racer but the ride is smooth rather than neck breaking force.

Exactly!

As an aside you apparently know your cars. Rolls engines are fascinatingly wonderful and magnificently tuned to the automobile in which they are placed. While I love the engine in my Corvette Z06 - which produces prodigious torque and horsepower - I am not in the least offended by your analogy referring to a Corvette engine and that in a Rolls. The Z06 is ferociously fast but the engine has nothing like the magic of a Roll's engine. No surprise their engines are more important to their business than their cars.

Relevance to audio: Rolls had little respect for the measurements crowd for years with its horsepower and torque ratings of "enough" and "sufficient". They were right; the experience told you all you needed to know.

No, Elk, I wasn't being critical of the Corvette...only wish I could afford one.

Both the Crown and McIntosh were great just not a match - and I'm sure that the speakers that I had at the time were a mis-match.

As for '"enough"' and '"sufficient"'; for the past year I've been researching a new system and have heard some devices with exceptional sonics but with what would be considered, by some, insufficient power. I don't need speakers the size of a refrigerator or an amp that requires #4 copper. Give me quality not quantity. Yeah, I'm getting old.

I have a big SS amp as well as tube equipment. The SS amp is extremely nice - I am using it now on my main system. However, I have yet to hear a SS amp, big or small, that handles timbre, harmonic complexity and decay as well as good tubes. Some do better than others however. AVA equipment unfortunately doesn't come close. I wish it did as I would then buy it.

Quote:
Even acosutic stuff is amplified.....what do you think the mics are there for?

Only if you are attending an amplified concert with PA speakers. Most concerts I either attend or play don't involve any mics, speakers or other electronics whatsoever (well, other than the lights). The sounds produced in such concerts by unamplified acoustic instruments are incredibly hard to reproduce electronically.

On the other hand, it is easy to reproduce the sound of a rock concert as it is completely electronic - your listening to what comes out of speakers when you are attending these performances, even the drums are heavily amplified. To reproduce this takes only brute watts and big speakers - and the watts need not be of much quality; the Crown, QSC and other PA amps used in the concerts don't have much finesse either. Nothing wrong with liking this - its just not something that has much appeal to me nor does it appeal to many others here.

And I won't touch your car analogies - we previously established you know nothing of cars. However, Mike's Corvette engine v. Rolls' engine analogy is superb.

Quote:
...yes everything is possible...the audio myth that some amps are better for this or that..BS.

So what your saying then is that the mega watt system used to produce deafening sound in a 20,000 seat arena would be a good match for my 20' x 20' listening room. And, vice-versa, the 100 watt audiophile integrated stereo amp that I have at home will be adequate for the aforementioned arena.

Quote:
However, I have yet to hear a SS amp, big or small, that handles timbre, harmonic complexity and decay as well as good tubes.

I have to agree with you, Elk. There is certainly a difference.

Quote:
On the other hand, it is easy to reproduce the sound of a rock concert...

A large closed or open air arena...how acoustically refined can it be?

Quote:
And I won't touch your car analogies - we previously established you know nothing of cars. However, Mike's Corvette engine v. Rolls' engine analogy is superb.

I doubt a 500 HP Bentley can do the same job as a 500 HP dump truck...but then, again, horse power is horse power just as watts are watts.

If watts are watts, and more of any watt is better, then why does a Behringer EuroPower EP2500 (450 watts per channel, both channels driven into 8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz at 0.1% THD) or a QSC PLX2502 (425 watts FTC per channel, both channels driven into 8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz at 0.05% THD) sound so much worse than a Phase Linear 400 Series I (200 watts RMS per channel, both channels driven into 8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz at 0.09% THD) in my system. Even playing loud studio or live recorded rock music. Playing the Phase Linear loud sounds good, the Behringer and QSC just plain bad. Just because twice as much power is required for a 3dB increase in sound level doesn't mean it is going to sound better.

Great examples, Jackfish. The specs just don't tell the whole story.

But maybe a 500 HP Bentley can do the same job as a 500 HP dump truck; Bentleys have pretty good sized trunks...

Amen regarding the Phase Linear 400 series I. I have 2 of them with a McIntosh CR10 preamp and the sound is excellent!

DUP exclaimed:

Quote:
10X power to double the soudn level, we is already all confused ain't we.

Wrong.

10 times the amplifier power provides +10dB. +10dB means the sound is ten times as loud (ten times the sound pressure).

Twice the amplifier power provides +3dB. +3dB is double the sound pressure (as previously stated by Jackfish, I believe).

A million times the power provides +60dB, etc.

There is a distinction between sound intensity as a physical measurement with a microphone and "loudness" as a sensory response. Perceived loudness is a psycho/physical response, is context sensitive, quite arbitrary and frequency dependent - not to mention completely subjective.

I am confident that what DUP perceives as "loud" and "louder" is very different than what many others in the world perceive.

DUP states:

Quote:
. . . just like in cars...driven an S4 or S6 lately?

I tried but I can't resist; the Audi S4 such an easy, big, juicy, slow-moving target.

Let's consider the boringly styled, uninspiring to drive overpriced S4: 0-60 ~5.5 seconds (slow for a "performance" car), fuel consumption which demands the imposition of a $1,700 gas guzzler tax (and this is even with the "efficient" 6-speed manual), heavy and slow to toss around at a portly 3,700 lbs, hideous reliability. All for a mere everyman price of $50,000. Clearly a bargain. Suddenly $2,500.00 interconnects seem like a great buy.

A Subaru Forrester Turbo is faster(!), more reliable, a lot cheaper.

A little inexpensive Dodge Neon SRT-4 will waste an S4 in a drag race, out handle it in race track twisties, gets much better mileage, possess better reliability, more fun to drive on the street and less than half the price of an S4. Buy a Neon and you'll have a better performing car and over $25,000.00 left over for cool audio equipment!

I won't even mention what similarly priced $50k cars will do to the poor Audi S4 in every respect.

Audio content: The Audi's sound system isn't offensive.

Gee, I must have grown old. All I want to do is listen to my music at a pleasing (for me) volume and leisurely drive my antique sports cars about town. I no longer need mega watts or mega horsepower.

Gobs of watts from crap amps is not going to sound better. Pro audio amps are not well suited to home stereo systems. Even 10,000 total watts of Behringer or QSC is not going to sound better than 400 total watts from a Phase Linear. The pro audio amps will just sound bad at the same level or louder, don't matter.

I will agree to the value of more clean power is usually better than less, but 800 total watts is enough for me.

A doubling of amplifier output results in a 3dB increase in sound pressure. To double the subjective loudness of audio output (somewhere from 6dB to 10dB, generally accepted as something around or at 10dB) an amplifier must deliver ten times as much power. This is well documented in the audio/acoustic engineering literature.

So if 1 watt produces 88dB at 1 meter from your loudspeakers then it will take around 10 watts to produce 98dB, 100 watts for 108dB and 1000 watts for 118dB. That means that most of the time I'm using 2 watts or less of 800 total watts in my system when listening to music.

Quote:
Who drag races? Driving, not drag racing.

You're ignoring most of the post. The S4 falls down in all respects when compared to many machines that cost less than half as much.

Additionally, you are the one that raised the issues of large HP and torque, and of "having it all". Thus basic acceleration is fair game. The S4 falls behind here also.

Apparently you have fallen prey to the marketing hype and magic powder sprinkled on Audis.

Quote:
All I want to do is listen to my music at a pleasing (for me) volume and leisurely drive my antique sports cars about town. I no longer need mega watts or mega horsepower.

Right on! It's quality that matters.

Quote:
I think it takes 10X power to give you a 3db increase in sound level.

Nope. It only takes twice the power to increase the sound by 3dB. +3dB is double the sound intensity.

Here is a handy little calculator from a source I think you will trust, Atlas Sound: Atlas Sound Calculator

If you have speakers with a 1 watt/1 meter efficiency of 88dB SPL, a 200 watt per channel amplifier, and you listen to music at no more than 89dB at 10 feet (approximately 10 watts), what is it about those 10 watts from a 1400 watt per channel amplifier that will be different than 10 watts from a 200 watt per channel amplifier? Is it so-called dynamic headroom, and if so, what the he11 is that? If one listens to music with musical peaks of 109 dB, 1000 watts would be necessary to handle those very short duration peaks. I don't know about you but I cannot play music in my house to the sound level of some live rock performances, a nightclub/discotheque, sandblasting, a wood chipper or driving a snowmobile. 95 dB is going to be about it before my neighbors call the police or my wife glares at me running her hand across her throat.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/109459.html
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.html

A 200 watt RMS amplifier will be able to produce those 1,000 watt short duration peaks in any event.

Fun cited web pages - thanks!

I'm sorry, but for me 400 watts per channel is going to have to do it. Plenty loud, open and lifelike for me and I'm not using those funky open baffle Whispers; I'm using speakers favorably compared to the finest electrostatics made, only with better bass extension. Live and let live!

But you can never convince me that thousands of watts from pro audio amps is going to make a home audio system sound better than one with an appropriately matched high end home audio amplifier and speakers.

A 137 dB peak from an orchestra occurs amongst the musicians, not the listener. Listeners in a hall probably only experience 110 to 120 dB. Those peaks, as pointed out before, are handled by 200 watt amplifiers.

Sustained music programs of 110 to 120 dB can cause hearing damage in about three to four songs off an LP or CD. SACD in your case.

Such technology, being only manifested by the Whispers and totally unavailable to the masses, obviously makes all other loudspeakers, even the Legacy Classic HD, worthless.

Having recorded all of these instruments (and I play some of them as well) I know that these sound levels happen only when one is just a foot or closer to the instrument. This isn't how we listen to music.

The figure of 75-85dB for an entire chamber orchestra (which consists of a full compliment of strings, oboes, bassoons, clarinets, flutes, a couple of french horns, often a couple of trumpets) in a small auditorium makes sense however. Note that with average efficiency speakers one can produce more than this sound pressure level with a measly watt.

More importantly, make it a good quality watt and the sound will be glorious. Add a few more good watts so you can back more than a meter from the speakers and you're all set.

Notice how this measurement for an entire chamber orchestra is much lower than the solo instrument figures. According to this chart a solo oboe, for example, produces 95-112dB. Yes, it does - but only when you have the measuring mic inches from the bell. If an oboe produced 112dB at normal listening distances we would put oboes on top of police cars instead of sirens.

Quote:
Great examples, Jackfish. The specs just don't tell the whole story.

No, it's "any one spec doesn't tell the whole story"
Most of the people I know think amplifiers are rated on watts and speakers are rated by driver diameter.

Alright already. Enough.
There seems to be confusion between measured sound level and perceived sound level based on the non linearity of the human ear. An increase of 3db power to a speaker will produce an output level that is double the previous amount.
If your speaker is linear at the powers used.
This 3db increase in level though doubling the output power will be perceptable to the human ear, but not seem twice as loud. A 10db increase in output will seem twice as loud to the human ear even though it will require 10 times the power. I think that the initial definition of the db is the amount of increase in volume that can be detected by the ear.

Quote:
A 200 watt RMS amplifier will be able to produce those 1,000 watt short duration peaks in any event.

Fun cited web pages - thanks!

Not so. The output power of any amplifier is limited by its power supply voltage and its ability to maintain that voltage under load. With a perfectly regulated supply voltage the output power would not change between continuous and instantainous signals. The difference in output power between continuious and instantainious is an indication of an amplifiers power supply to supply high currents. There are amplifiers with dual supplies that can produce high peak powers but nowhere near the 7db increase that you mention. More like 1db.

And just to prove how lame I am, here is my third post in a row.
I still have a Crown D150 amp that I bought in the late 70's. It was a bunch of Crown parts mounted in a different chassis that the owner couldn't get to work. Major ground loops. I liked them because of their DC coupled ability.
They use these things to drive servo motors. How cool is that? Not that it has anything to do with sound quality.

Quote:
...I have said 100W is usueless for most anything actually...Large amps with more reserve for some realism, will sound better than some 100W severly LIMITED capacity...

I agree with you, DUP, that a high wattage amp can more easily drive a speaker than can a less powerful amp. But do I really need 10000 watts to produce a sound level of 85dB in a room that is 20 feet wide, 20 feet long with a 9 foot ceiling? If my 100 watt amp is only turned up 1/3 of the way and I'm getting the sound needed to fill the room with sound that has "realism" and is not "constrained" why would I need/want a 200, 400 or 10000 watt amp? It is wise to have "reserve" power but there is no need for overkill.

Quote:
There are amplifiers with dual supplies that can produce high peak powers but nowhere near the 7db increase that you mention. More like 1db.

Not quite. It depends on the duration of the peak; the shorter the peak the greater the difference between RMS power and peak power. Remember also that an amplifier rated 200 watts RMS is easily capable of producing quite a bit more power than 200 watts. RMS is somewhat akin to an average or mean power output capability.

Quote:

Quote:
There are amplifiers with dual supplies that can produce high peak powers but nowhere near the 7db increase that you mention. More like 1db.

Not quite. It depends on the duration of the peak; the shorter the peak the greater the difference between RMS power and peak power. Remember also that an amplifier rated 200 watts RMS is easily capable of producing quite a bit more power than 200 watts. RMS is somewhat akin to an average or mean power output capability.

I still stand by what I said in my previous post.
An amplifier may produce a higher output power for a short duration than it can continuously, but nowhere close to the amount that you claim. You must also compare like units continuous RMS and short duration RMS. Switching units from RMS to peak is not valid.

It's all about definitions, isn't it?

Given the narrow parameters you specify you are more or less correct, although it still depends on how one specifically defines the measurements that will be taken. It also depends on the amps' power supply, capacitive capacity, the characteristics of the load, etc.

The vastly more important question whether the amp meets the demands of the music as required by the listener.

There is no question that if you are running an amp rated 200 watts RMS at 200 watts RMS as your basic, continuous listening level you have little headroom left. But we don't do this in the real world, our ears would melt. We listen to just a few watts RMS at most (usually less) and enjoy oodles of headroom with a 200 watt amp.

Thus, IMO, one's money is better spent buying the best quality watts instead of the greatest quantity of watts. If you prefer quantity over quality this is perfectly fine; I won't argue with your preference.

Quote:
It's all about definitions, isn't it?

Given the narrow parameters you specify you are more or less correct, although it still depends on how one specifically defines the measurements that will be taken. It also depends on the amps' power supply, capacitive capacity, the characteristics of the load, etc.

The vastly more important question whether the amp meets the demands of the music as required by the listener.

There is no question that if you are running an amp rated 200 watts RMS at 200 watts RMS as your basic, continuous listening level you have little headroom left. But we don't do this in the real world, our ears would melt. We listen to just a few watts RMS at most (usually less) and enjoy oodles of headroom with a 200 watt amp.

Thus, IMO, one's money is better spent buying the best quality watts instead of the greatest quantity of watts. If you prefer quantity over quality this is perfectly fine; I won't argue with your preference.

Finally, even though my previous posts seem to annoy you with facts, your last post hits the nail on the head. Despite the laws of physics, which I feel obligated to argue their facts, bottom line is "so what"? How does it sound?
Well put.

Quote:
Finally, even though my previous posts seem to annoy you with facts, your last post hits the nail on the head.

Not at all. We are in essential agreement on the facts as well, although we stated them differently and got crossed up a bit in the use of language and misunderstood each other. Vigorous discussion often leads to more clarity and better understanding. Thanks for playing!

I have been in this hobby since the early 60's, and have read a lot on the pro's and con's of pro audio amps. I was beginning to have problems with my current Onkyo M504 power amp, and decided to try a Crown XTI 2000. I would like to know how many people here actually have A/B experience with pro-amps, and their consumer counterparts? I do, and here is my story. Well, I'll tell you compared to my Onkyo M504 power amp my new Crown XTI-2000 amp simply reproduces music with the kind of muscle one associates with a live performance. I get much tighter, deep, dry bass. The bass wins hands down on the Crown. To be honest the top end seems a little more sterile, but hardly what I would call harsh. Maybe a better word would be analytical. All in all I see no reason to look at a very expensive consumer amp again. I was very skeptical before I bought this amp myself, and I posted on many boards before buying. I have listened to live music for many years much of which was not amplified. My brother was a jazz guitarist for 35 years. His very good friend Gene Palumbo went on to arrange, and conduct for Judy Garland for a couple years before her death. I believe I have a well trained ear, and what I hear is very neutral reproduction. I'm sure a lot of these $5000.00 amps are excellent and produce better specs, but to tell you the truth after hearing Krell, Threshold, and some H/K Citations over the years, this Crown stacks right up there with the best of them. Even the fan which I thought was going to be the big issue has not come on once that I can tell. I'm sure under laboratory listening conditions, these high end consumer amps may reveal a little more detail, but I listen in my living-room. So far I feel like I stole this amp for $699.00. I'll never run out of headroom at 475 watts per channel, and it will probably outlast most consumer amps. In the past I personally owned a Phase Linear 400 series 2, H/K Citation 16, and an Onkyo M504. Each amp failed for one reason or another within a 9 years span. I know non of these where ultra high end, but they represented a good buy in their day, and were not exactly cheap. The only component I have from the very early 70's that has continued to perform with no maintenance at all is my Crown IC-150 pre-amp. If I get half the life out of this amp I should be in an old folks home by then. I'm not trying to sway anyone here, just presenting the facts as I see them. Pro amps are every bit as good as the high end consumer amps. The only difference is there priced right, and will probably last longer! One more thing this amp's signal to noise ratio is excellent. Dead quite between tracks. If Crown Didn't sell these in such high quantities I'm sure it would cost a lot more than the $1,100.00 retail. That's my take, just being honest.

I would like to hear more on this subject from others.