The specs aren't really going to help you decide. There are upsampling DACs and CD players that sound great, as well as great sounding units that do no upsampling, etc.

I suggest getting a unit in the price range you are considering and do some listening in your system. Keep it if you like it.

Sounds like you may be a candiate for a Benchmark DAC. Use your NAD for the transport. You might also look at the Apogee Mini series DAC that is under $1K. RME Hammerfall as a combo ADC/DAC (ADI-2) for $600, but I think the jitter spec is a little higher than the others mentioned.

You could also use the RME to stream digital audio into your computer and that would be better sound. It does offer some great flexibility.

I'm with Jim on this. The Benchmark DAC resolution tested out to at least 20 bits of resolution at Stereophile. DACs costing as much as $8000 have in the past only gotten to 18 bits of resolution such as the Lavry. Be sure to also look at the graphs for high-resolution jitter spectrum of analog output on the following two units.

I think you can then: CD/DVD Player -> Benchmark DAC -> Amp

Check it out:

Benchmark
http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/886/index.html

Lavry
http://stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/804lavry/

If you don't want the Benchark DAC save your pennies and dimes until you can flip for the following.

http://www.emmlabs.com/html/audio/cdsa/cdsa.html

An excellent idea and the external DAC mentioned all sound very good.

Again, however, don't get hung up on the issue of the bit depth resolution test results. You are only sending the DAC 16 bit data. Buy the equipment that sounds the best to you.

Also consider the PS Audio DAC III in your list. It is another wonderful sounding DAC.

All of these DACs can be bought with 30 day money back guarantees.

This I do not know because I do not think there were any tests run on the different I/O. That stated I "think" you will find balanced, optical and XLR to be better than RCA in THD.

This I only found when reading on HeadFi...so your mileage may vary. I have no proof either way which is better.

Balanced is mostly for noise elimination, why would one "sound" different than the other? XLR is for studios noisey enviroments, long runs. In home use, you ain't gonna hear anything different, if you do, it's probably a good imagination.

XLRs can sound better sometimes, worse in others. One of the issues is that it is expensive to do balanced connections correctly. Of course, like most things in audio, theory only gets one so far - try it and see!

Danny,

If experts say that you can hear the difference and there is varying distortion between the different connectors or components, which can be _measured_ then the difference exists and can be heard by some people. Everything has a sound whether one chooses to believe it or not or there would be no differentiation between components and the entire art would have settled on how to manufacture every component. These are electronics related components and the only one that cannot hear the difference between most components is Carl. That said it does not shut Carl's pie hole from telling you which amp or speakers to buy. Go figure? Because if Carl cannot hear the difference in most components then what makes Carl think he can recommend components of any kind. And, what is Carl doing here? Another I don't know, and I cannot help you there either.

The ONLY "stereophile" related item that Carl knows about, how to operate or discuss with any intelligence in these forums is the volume knob.

I got both types, no audible differences here.

Now why would balanced XLR sound worse sometimes? Come on, you gotta be kidding. If you eliminate maybe some buzz or hum, this sounds worse? Do you need some noise to sound live, like the sound of a guitar amp humming away on stage!!!

Teh differences are so subtle most of teh time, if at all, mostly imagination. Comparing similar power abilty units, differences are so subtle or non existant. The reviewers love to create the illusions of dramatic this or that. It fills pages sells products. Every month a new breaktrhough!!! Hardly. The absurdity is that all these supposedly audible difference are made out to be so dramatic, in things like the connector used, the color of teh plugs!!! De maged plastics...Similar amps with similar power specs etc will sound more alike than different. Logic says get teh most powerful, reliable, for teh best price. And ones that meet specs, unlike some grossly over priced units tested in teh magaize that didn't meet published specs, but just had some kind of magic powers, that meeting published specs was secondary. I can hear teh SUBTLE difference between a stock Hafler amp versus a current AVA rebuild using new MOSFETS new driver boards (same AC line transformer and heatsink though same speaker connectors...there is an improved clairty..sure, teh older Hafler ckts are 30+ year old design while current AVA OmegaStar EX is faster slew rate, less distortion etc, all measurable parameters. If I only had stock Hafler P500 or DH500's they sound fine too, but side by side, yeah, difference. Ya get used to either one. Power capaicty reliabilty also matter. When you start hearing the sound of a plating on a contact pin say silver versus gold versus nickel...all not corroded either, with good fit, you know you are fooling yourlself. Even comparing an old Soundcraftsman high powered amp to a different amp, all high powered, subtle differences, none of this dramatic nonsnese written up so much in many pages of reviews, each month, anotehr breakthrough. Ain't happening. I bet if most reviewers reveiwed stuff not knowing what they hwere listening too, they would be hard pressed to hear differences, they elaborate on with such verbage and detail picutres in text. They are writers first, fill the pages, sell product. Every DAC they test is another breakthroguh, riiiiight. They have to write with such zeal, it sells products, and magaizes. Every different phono cartridge for $6000 is such a change...yeah riiiight. Yes i do hear a difference between my cartridges, and do prefer one over the otehr. Magazine reveiws would have you believe every amp every CD player is so different, that it jumps out at ya.....yeah high end is about the minute differences, but after a while it's so subtle to not exist

Danny,

Never mind this two faced, hypocrite.

Carl spent many tens of thousands on audio gear and having done so now wishes to deprive everyone else of a similar pursuit. Carls' speakers were $15,000+ and his amps probably many thousands again...42000 watts worth! Look at what the fool bought for a stereo pair of speakers and yet he gets in everyone else's face? If Carl didn't hear the difference then WHY did Carl spend what he did to get what he has?

http://forum.stereophile.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/543/password//sort/1/cat/2/page/1

Now, whenever anyone wants to talk about gear they first have to get Carls approval. For if the subject matter discusses gear other than used haffler amps, cheap ass van alstines amps or disco looking legacy speakers then you are considered off the mark by Carl.

We are all coping the best we can with Carl. He is quite the anathema.

Carl will not be happy until the Stereophile forums are renamed the sh*tty used haffler, van crapstines and disco speaker forums.

Upgraded to 4800W. Never said i can't hear a difference in stuff. Stuff that is different. Not an AC line cord or wall outlet!! Eeessshhhhh. Or RCA versus XLR at home. come on already. And I bet there are lotsa amps pre amps that sound like AVA.....for a hell of a lot more money, that goes into nonsense that has no bearing on realibilty, sound, or things that make a difference. Hand engraved front panels, front panels that exceed what even a commerical road rugged amp uses to survive in rack mounts. giant rubber pads made made from some s"specia" nonsensical polymer/Rubber found only in somebodys basement...of course people will hear the improvment. I've changed wires between teh TT and pre amp....where there actually is some electrical explanation involving capacitance loading teh cartridge, they all sound teh same!!! Of course, reason for that, my ears are not as good, my system doesn't "sresolve" good enough..... difference betwen a speaker with 4 mids versus "only" two....midrange IS better, just more going on, stays clearr at higher levels. simple, cus' there is more drivers moving teh air, less effort on teh drivers....The piece of wire connecting teh pre amp to teh amp, is not audible, as long as it has secure clean, not corroded, loose fittings. When some of these reviers go into such detail and fawn over how this piece of wire transforms teh sound, like it was like changing from a 100W amp to a 1000W amp, it's nonsense. I can guarnatee, you will hear an improvement by upping the amps capacity from 100W to 1000W playing at the same volume levels, same speakers, more watts, more control, it just does it better. When teh driver has to do something, teh amp makes it do it better, more control, less effort. Proved it done it, it's one simple reality in audio.not in wall outlets, twists and turns in a piece of wire. Wood blocks or green ink

If there is one place a RatShack lover shops is at Van Alstines! Audio by Van Alstines is EVERY Walmart, KMart & Radio Shack mans dream place to shop! Turn it UP GHETTO loud!

http://www.avahifi.com/

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index....rentPage=search

If NOT Radio Shack try Walmart! 750 _SMOKING_ WATTS!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5192559

If NOT Radio Shack try KMart! 1600 Watts Mosfet, priced just like Van Alstine!
http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104...yword=amplifier

The ONLY reason NOT to shop at Radio Shack, Walmart or KMart is because they don't carry the higher wattage devices like Frank Van Alstine does...but the quality and value are very comparable. Carl is the man. Never mind the useless half inch thick aluminum plate, go for the GROSS WATTAGE! THE MORE WATTS THE BETTER NO MATTER WHAT THE QUALITY! The reason is simple. If you don't have to stress your amplifiers your speakers will not know that they are being driven by shit QC gear.

Then look at your cables! Again, Radio Shack has what Carl uses as well! 16ga NO problem. Gold colored ends NO problem. Don't waste your money on expensive audiophile or stereophile grade gear, and connectors buy the best for less!

http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.j...kwCatId=2032058

Just look at these GOLD PLATED RCA cables from Radio Shack. They are as good as anything from Cardas! Don't waste your money says Carl the man.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index....rentPage=search

Who can hear the difference anyway! Quit wasting your money! Buy Van Alstine! Just watch the edges of this audio gear, its like playing with an empty tuna can!

Now you're talking. you finally got it. I'm sure you can hear what a "stereophile" grade wire sounds like. Tell me what you hear between a "Cardas" wire and a radio shack wire? What do you HEAR different? And I actually don't use Radio shack, prefer the Dayton stuff from Parts Express, even cheaper, why pay for a brand name like Radio Shack? Or better yet, MCMinone.com Stella Labs, ...I'm sure they have a "lab" too? The stuff is cheap, it is made well, and most importantly they make them long enough to reach from one pice to the next...which is something similar to Cardas, and all Audiophile or "StereoPhile" grade, whatever that is...please explain, "audiophile/Stereophile GRADE? I actually even have so Canare from Markertek. And teh piece from AudioQ.... is teh most worthlesss overpriced plastizer leaking gooey overpriced wire yet. Over a short time the "audiophile" grade blue plastic on this brand name piece of wire is all gooey stickey, the plastizers are leaching out, none of the CHEAP Dayton or MCM StellaBrands ever did that, only one of teh highly marketed thing did...is that audiophile grade....

I was hoping to get under your skin. It's frightening just where you are mentally with gear. And I have to say thanks Carl. You really shouldn't be hanging out at Stereophile, you are one confused MF!

Of course we all know that Radio Shack stuff sucks.... I really didn't know your angle, but finally hit on it. Now I got it.

You could say that you go to the finest jewelry store in the world and fight with the jeweler, the supplier and the people buying the jewelry. You hate the entire operation yet want to hang around with the highest quality folks and diamonds to be had. You are a dangerous and desperate wannabe. Another way to look at it is that you go to the finest auto dealership in the world and fight with the dealership, the manufacturers and buyers. You are out of your mind and way out of your league. You disrespect the entire industry having nothing but the finest intentions. You can always find a few outliers in the industry but you bash the entire segment.

I still don't get the $15,000 speakers but I would say that it doesn't bode well for Legacy or Van Alstine having you as their sponsor.

And, NO, I cannot hear the wire because I don't want to spend $5K on speaker wire but I bet the wire has a sound as sure as I am alive. Every component has a sound Carl.

Signed,
Showflash!

Is Stereophile about THE BEST or merely the most overpriced? do you want teh most performance best sound or just pay way more than an electronic amp is really worth for what it does? Tell me, the best sound or just the most absurd prices? I keep coming back to a $100Lk TT. It has to be insanity...but there is supposed to be one coming for even more. Of course all the hearing pros, the ones who know how to listen will of course hear the improvements from $100K to what is it gonna be $300K. Yup, I'm sure it sounds better. The makers of these high priced toys, must be having fun buying more expensive toys for themselves, you helped them get it. A TT is a platter, with a motor, with some bearings. A Porsche, Audi, or even a VW R32 have lotsa specialized prcise parts, and they function under all kinds of enviormental conditions. A TT sits in a basically controlled enviorment, spinning a platter. $100K Yup, ounds right priced to me. Is Stereophile about the best or just the most overpriced? Once in a while they throw in some mortal based items. When they test $45K CD only players and it's full of DEFECTS, miswired, high distortion, and the reviewer raves about it, one starts to wonder, what is going on? Only JA with some science using measurments, tells about the reality....the hearing ones are possibly just story tellers. They really should publsih the hearing tests of these reviewers, some of them have to have hearing defects, loss of something. They claim to hear wires, yet can't hear all teh electronic distortions? How can you hear teh sound of a wall outlet, yet a CD player miswired, is in audible?
Which factory in China makeswires, that might be tagged Radio Shack..or some other brand with better packaging, and walnut boxes to improve it's performance.

Quote:
Now why would balanced XLR sound worse sometimes?

Basic electrical engineering.

Properly designed balanced inputs will typically sound better than single ended - but most balanced inputs are not designed well. Many manufacturers use a quasi balanced input. The proper components are expensive so they go the less expensive route. One of the issues is poor common mode rejection. The common techniques of implementing XLR

More marketing, if teh mfg can hang some XLR connectors out back to impress, and it's not a true balanced ckt....the BS continues in consumer audio. Which ones use true balanced ckts...so many expensive brands put XLR...to look impressive or actually work? In a home enviorment, doubtful teh differences is audible...And XLR connectors are usally more robust themselves physcially, to take a beating in a commerical or pro enviorment, over RCA fittings. Do these high end makers than don't use true balanced ckts put this in their specs? If your re buying a $10K pre amp it better be spec'd properly....and I'm sure there are magic voodo XLR cables from teh same bunch that makes RCA magic wires...do they use teh same techniques, same lines of BS? Since teh ckts are differetn shouldn't they use differetn techniques in teh wires magic insulations and twists and turns

(just a note for the uninitiated...RatShack and DUP are the exact same person, shilling for the inferior antiques sold under the Van Alstine name...what crap!)

P.S.- Maybe he has gone so far off the deep end this time that he actually has three or more bizzare personalities talking to each other and selling Van Alstine to each other...(Carl??...DUP??...Ratshack???)...only his shrink knows how many personalities this confused boy has now...lol.

A thought; if Carl and DUP and RatShack are three of DUP's separate personas, will they all be ordering equipment from Van Alstine? That should be really good for business.... (hey Frank...how come all three of these orders are going to the same address....ROFL).

You make a claim regarding certain "poor quality" implementations of balanced circuitry with no specifics or examples to back this up; do you have any data, or is this just BS?

I can tell you that BAT, Audio Research, and AYRE are three companies that design their balanced inputs and outputs properly, and where CMRR is 60-100 db, at least.

Get specific and tell us exactly what you are talking about; without specifics your comments are meaningless.

MOST????...it takes a lot of hard data to back that up!!

There is NO way that I am Carl Engebretsen who is in fact DUP. Its funny that you're a techie and cannot follow what is going on here. RatShack was a character to make FUN of Carl/DUP. You need to get out more.

There is no way that I would buy Van Alstines or Whispers with what look to be stamped steel baskets for $15,000.

The specs you quote are only one small piece in the overall design of a CD player; it is if you were trying to choose a high-performance automobile by only comparing the diameter of the brake rotors and ignoring all else.

Equally important are the speed and capacity of the processors, algorithms and memory capacity dedicated to error correction, among many other parts of the overall implementation.

If you want the best overall implementation for under $1000, the smart money is on the Rega and OPPO players; the OPPO 970 is only $150 and was chosen by The Absolute Sound as Product of the Year for 2006. I think the last time they chose a product under $2000 for that distinction was about 20 years ago...lol!

It is a unit that has an impressive package of engineering for an incredibly low price, and does DVD, SACD, and CD. It may be an all-time classic like the NAD 3020 for superb enginneering at a low price. Buy at OPPO.com.

My post was in fact a calculated provocation intended to "smoke out" the information that you just provided; mission accomplished (and suspicions confirmed; lol).

I always wondered what his silliness's real name was.

The name "Carl" appeared in the thread with no prior reference, so I suspected that it might in fact be his, but you have now confirmed it. Thank you.

(As for getting out more...if I don't always grasp the subleties of a complicated thread... I think that is because I am too busy playing golf and listening to music to keep fully immersed in this little arena for pissing matches...lol).

http://forum.stereophile.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/539/password//sort/1/cat/2/page/1

http://forum.stereophile.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/543/password//sort/1/cat/2/page/1

http://forum.stereophile.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/540/password//sort/1/cat/2/page/6

I'm not totally against Carl's system. To each his own I say, but Carl shoves his sh*t down everyones throat after having spent $20,000. Now that he's spent his cash he is against anyone from making their own decisions. Its like he has all the knowledge of every Stereophile reviewer in his head because he read the magazines and bought some gear. In fact if you quiz Carl he knows VERY little about any equipment including that which he purchased...he is incapable of understanding the technical aspects of the gear or has put forth no effort in understanding the equipment reviewed in Stereophile on a technical basis. Which is which I do not know but it was a heck of a way to spend 30 years of his time.

Very interesting photos there; I am a bit surprised that Jeff and JA actually went to his place to check it out.

So, just what DOES his system consist of?

Hard to believe some of the comments he makes if he really has something better-sounding than a Bose table radio...lol.

I do not know every component in Carls' system. If you ask Carl he will tell you.

From what I have read he has Haffler and Van Alstine amps and Legacy Whisper speakers. Allegedly 4000+ Watts! Go figure. That many watts from a guy who wants to split hairs with you over speaker cable?

Yeah, I see the speakers and amps and Phillips Cd player in the photos.

I suspect that the speakers are fairly good; too bad he didn't spend the money on an Audio Research LS-26 preamp and a decent power amplifier. If he does have undamaged ears, he could hook those up to his speakers, and in 10 minutes he would have a real revelation; a decent CD player would be a big help, too.

Ever heard JA comment on the sound he heard from this lash-up? It would be interesting to see how good or bad he thought it was.

Search for the word DUP down the pages. The Legacy review was also partially attributed to Carl.

Blog
http://blog.stereophile.com/stephenmejias//index12.html
http://blog.stereophile.com/stephenmejias//index11.html

See Legacy Specifications, Carl
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/806legacy/
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/806legacy/index2.html

I personally think he has hearing loss but that isn't his biggest problem. Carl attacks Stereophile rank and file. Carl is like a military wannabe, a communist enlisted amongst us in the US, Marine Corps.

Well, so much of what he writes is obviously the stream of thoughts from a person that is writing faster than they are thinking. He seems to like to spew out rhetoric faster than he can organize it, and the result is somewhere between silly and incomprehensible.

If he ever slowed down enough to be vaguely coherent, maybe we would find out if there are really some sort of opinions there that one can take seriously and discuss; as it is it is just gibberish and meaningless outlandish crap that cannot be taken seriously.

What he hears, or doesn't, is a secondary issue to whether he can ever learn to say anything that can be taken seriously.

VanAlstine Ultra DAC fed from a few different Cd players, along with some SACD universal players from Onkyo and others Philips 936 SACD also...AVA Ultra DAC makes the CD players just fine...10+ year old Philips CD player/changers, work like a charm...digital out used...changed out a lasera assy. Would randomly skip, after putting in a new assy from PartsExpress was like $30 for a new Philips assy...works fine..i be tthe only problem with teh thing was dried out grease on teh tiny gear used to move teh optics back and forth , new one had a differetn type grease...Should be good for another 10 years.....they where such well made units i don't wann replace them, no need, simple maintaince they keep on going.....The VanAlstine Ultra pre amps will easily compete with ARC stuff Ultra Hybrid EC pre from AVA... same small signal tues etc..just not the cooler rack mount face, or non sonic heavy panels....but RACK mount is certainly what i'd like for convience, now sound CONVIENCE. Furmans have 19" faces, so they could be mounted in a rack case...PF modules and the other Furman units, rack it baby...that's why it was developed, ease of mounting and stacking, none of this advantagard magic feet and goofy wood blocks under amps etc..RACK MOUNTS....

I stopped learning after 5th grade.....i found tehre was nothing else left to have to know.......I bet you musta' went to aroun d7th or 8th grade? Superior minds happen...others just stay dumb......

Hearing loss.....hahahahah..just yesterday manged to get two live events in....One smokin'' Gus Bardaji over in South Amboy...this dude is gooooood And earlier Chuck Lambert Band right on the boardwalk in Asbury Pk....Asbury Pk is really being redone, they are trying, place had quite a few people on the sane....ChuckLambert bad is also gooooooood www.gusbardaji.com www.chucklambert.com local greats...interestingly i heard every detail of LIVE music.....And all those cables just laying on the ground and floor!!! How dare they do that...sounded fantastic....wailing away on them guitars, crystal clear drums....nice bass patters.....Chuck had some JBL portable setups niiiiice...Gus had a small Yamaha system...he was inside smaller venue...sounded GREAT!!! Wires all over teh floor!!!! Why then do you need to lift them when at home?

To my knowledge. You are the only FOOL that keeps talking about lifting wires off of the ground or purchasing a $100TT. I've never seen anyone complain so much.

And you complain about wires but have 1400 watts for a pair of homespeakers...what a jack*ss.

Don't confuse Carl. Less than two weeks ago he was complaining that it wasn't fair that I chastised him for NOT knowing anything about equipment. Now he is back to being a know it all? Go figure, what a jack*ss is right.

If Carl did NOT complain about Stereophile, he wouldn't have a life. He doesn't seem to do anything else and he knows so little about Stereophile grade components after 30 years. You've got to feel sorry for him, being so dumb and all. Carl is incapable of holding a discussion regarding most technical issues. All Carl knows it seems is to complain about that which he does not understand.

You know what helps me deal with Carl is to read his posts, specifically his writing style (Duh duh duh teh) as if Carl embodies the voice of the cartoon bird Tweety of "Sylvester and Tweety". If you know how Tweety sounds, and his little IQ....CARL FITS.

http://www.tweetyfriends.com/WebPages/FunHouse/SoundClips.php

You know, for years I used a Yamaha 5-disc player with the digital output fed into a Theta Pro Basic 3 D/A converter, and I thought that that was pretty good, and I suspect that the results you are getting with the setup you are using is similar. But I have to tell you, the AYRE C5-xe will blow you away if you get a dealer to let you take it home and try it. You have maybe $15,000 invested in your speakers, so obviously the $6000 for the AYRE is not a problem if you hear major improvement. Try it and you won't go back.

The interesting thing about the AYRE is that before about 60% of my CDs sounded very good and maybe 30% fair and 10% not good at all. I attributed this to a lot of them just being poorly recorded in the first place. With the AYRE, however, 95% of my CDs sound excellent; there are CDs that I had given up on as just not worth listening to that now sound very very good. The sound quality was there all the time, but just was not getting through with my previous setup (the last thing I was using was the SONY CDP-777ES with the digital output through the THETA D/A...direct analog output from the SONY for SACD). Anyway, every CD sounds better through the AYRE, and SACDs also; it is quite a machine, as both Stereophile and Absolute Sound have concluded in their listening tests.

Don't say it ain't a lot better than what you have until you have heard it in YOUR system! Try it!

It's in teh ads in teh magazine from various places...maybe YOUR conprhension is a bit off, I seem to notice things in print, you don't. Sleelctive reading?

Quote:
I can tell you that BAT, Audio Research, and AYRE are three companies that design their balanced inputs and outputs properly, and where CMRR is 60-100 db, at least.

There is no disagreement that some do balanced connections well. And while CMRR over 70 or 75dB is uncommon, some implementations do indeed realize 100dB. This is very impressive.

Rarely are modern electronics truly balanced; few use properly implemented isolation transformers and instead rely upon active electronics to create an electronically

Since this thread has strayed from the original topic, I'm going to close it now. Thanks.