Also checkout www.mediasupply.com for MAM discs...Fomerly called Mitsui. MAM is like a major OEM to the stars

Hi, Darkaudio,

Wow. I can tell by the way you spill the alphabet soup that you're really hip, man. I mean, wired. This reminds me of an old Smothers Brothers line, "...I can see by your outfit, that you're a young cowboy,/ If you buy an outfit, you can be a cowboy, too..." Sorry to pull the old English major bit, but I couldn't help notice the massive passive: "(George Louis) who has been proven to be a fraud and a charlatan." Who proved it, and where's the proof? Does time in grade burning CD-Rs turn your ears to gold? I'm part of the "consensus of sorts" and, as a listener, not a jargon hound, sniffing bones lacking vowels, I can tell you that, yes, in spite of the combined efforts of Plextor, BenQ, and LiteOn (sounds like a law firm from Uranus), standalone duplicators DO sound better. Sorry. Proof lies in the listening, not the lingo and web addresses (why does everyone these days refer to web addresses as divine authority?). Computers are for trading stocks and commodities. And slingin' bullshit on the Stereophile Forum. Audio? Analog gets you closer to the real experience (it has been proven!). No analog? Sigh. Find a good standalone duplicator, burn some high quality tunes (copies of copies of copies...ad infinitum) and enjoy them in your listening room system, if that's the best you can do (poor you). I did enjoy your final sentence, after 20 yards of miserable prose. "Of course, all of this is a moot point..." I agree. Why get on my man Sam, if it's all moot? Cheers and happy tunes. Clifton

And you went to all the trouble of registering just to demonstrate that you are an ill mannered a**hole that loves reading Stereophile despite your obvious lack of respect for the contributors like ST? Therapy might not help with your poor manners, but it could help you deal with your anger management issues.

Hi DA,

I gotta side with you on this one. While your post may have been just a touch harsh, you are quite correct that Sam's article was very old news, at least in the computer world. In the world of high end audio this "old news" just seems to be reaching these shores and trying to get some of these folks to pull their heads out of the sand is going to cause a bit an uproar.

Without trying to pour more fuel on the fire I'll take a stab at clearing the air at bit.

Here is what I perceive to be the major problem between the computer camp and the old school audiophile camp, and why I think the computer camp is right. The audiophile camp since the beginning of the digital age has been insisting on applying the rules of analog audio to digital audio and this cannot be done. Once the signal has been converted back to analog, then sure analog rule apply but in the digital domain the rule are completely different. And here's the worst part for the audiophile camp, in the digital domain the computer camp has got them beat hands down, no contest.

The CD-R debate is just one simple example. There is Sam Telling worrying about all kinds of analog like things about CD burning when it's a simple case of errors and error correction - computer based things. No big mystery. And no cause for a big fight either.

Some of the rules are changing, that's all there is to it. I burn CDs with a computer. I really don't hear any difference between brands of blank CD-Rs, maybe I'm deaf, I don't care enough to argue about it. I just know that a CD player works in a completely different way than an analog turntable and that's enough to confuse the hell out of me.

Some things I do know. Using my computer I was once able to take a badly scratched audio CD and make a perfectly playable copy. Try that with a cassette deck and a turntable.

Paradigm shifts can be a bitch.

I think both sides were a bit harsh. I suspect darkaudio's tone with the "HELLO" (I can hear some comedian saying it in a mocking tone in my head with a drawn out "HELLOooo...") got the regulars on the defensive to protect "one of their own" (justifiably so) resulting in some angry tones and less than convincing backpeddling.

While I also agree that the news is old, relativity does come into play. There are plenty of people for which this info will be new. If it was old to you, good for you and your hipness and time to move on to the next article.

The collector in me prefers store bought discs, but, I have used the PC to make CDs and have heard differences, not always for the better.

WHO'S GETTING HOSTILE, GODDAMMIT!!! Seriously, Darkaudio, your style did come across as an attack (which made me want to yank your chain a bit, concerning a few, er, logical inconsistencies), although I can see by your reply that you are probably a good man who is just enthused about his own particular access to our fascinating hobby. Actually, I have come so close to tossing my PC onto the hood of the Pontiac parked beneath my window that only a couple of quick swigs of my favorite firewater have cooled the ire. That's because nothing on the goddam thing works at the precise moment I need it to. I will defer to your superior techno agility, but you have to display it in a way that makes sense, or I'll just give up and go play with my turntable. We Neanderthals are quite sensitive about the crabbed, compressed, elided, hashed, chopped, and mangled alphabet soup that passes for computerese these days, and must occasionally protest the carnage threatening the mother tongue. Apologies, cheers, and happy tunes. Clifton

I guess I should have written "for whom", especially after reading the Tony Scott review of The Da Vinci Code that Wes mentioned in the NY Times.

Well. I've certainly been called worse than a Which. Jeff, I'm nominating you for President. Not only do we get the voice of reason and moderation, we get grammar, poetry, and caricature. Of course, being sane, I'm afeerd you'll decline (there's a dangler for the pedants!). Still, I'm going ahead anyway. Your first task, in the area of fiscal reform, will be to award all belligerants and befused human projectiles a $100,000 gift certificate to Sound by Singer or Acoustic Sounds. I know, it sounds expensive on the surface, but over the long haul it'll be cheaper than what we got goin' now. Let 'em beat their bombs into Burmesters, their scimitars into Sennheisers, their rocket-launchers into Rockports!!! Jeff for President!! Ooops -- I think I'm about to get flayed by a certain other Which, for talking politics and abetting the enemy. Screw it. Let it stand. Jeff for President!!!

Great idea Clifton,

With a last name of Wong, the Chinese will most certainly be much less of a threat plus the US audio market will be flooded with lower priced Asian equipment. Now we just have to get Harry over in Iraq to agree to be vice president and I think we've got a winning ticket.

Right on! Wong-Harry, a ticket for the ages! Send Bush back to the bushes, Cheney to a chain-gang, Rumsfeld to Rangoon!!
You can't go wrong with Wong!

Poor Sam, how out of it he must feel. Wasting his time in Italy, hanging out with the guys at Sonus Faber, Pathos, etal., when he could have been learning the essential skills (and buzzwords) relative to burning CD-R's. God, I wish I could think of something to say or do to make him feel better about himself.

You sir, are a cruel man.

There was along discussion of Mr. Louis's CD duplicators here:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1130940695&read&3&4&

Is this the same guy?

www.gslouis.com

By the way, Darkaudio, I just read Sam's article, looking for some sign of the authoritative, pseudo-computer expert persona you assumed needed attacking. There were none. I noted numerous counters and phrases that clearly identified Sam's persona as that of an interested novice, one content to just listen to the media transfer/storage technology now out there and make a listener's judgment. He openly stated that he had limited knowledge in the area several times. And there were no attempts to lionize Louis or shove him down the reader's throat. Sam just mentioned him as a source and dutifully reported how we could contact him if we wished. Your persona is less attractive, even though the man behind the mask may be more congenial. And this aspect of writing is what characterizes Sam as a pro and you as a hack. Your initial attack on the piece established you as no more than a cheerleader for computer audio, whereas Sam remained disinterested throughout. Your computer may do graphics (wonderful -- as if we didn't have enough of THOSE), but it can't write. If I need graphics, I'll take some of my trading profits and hire a studio. Clifton

darkaudio - Enthusiastic posts are always welcome. I think your tone just put several of us on the defensive. Since I'm now running for president, I'll break out my diplomacy skills and suggest we start over with some introductions. I'm Jeff. Welcome to the Stereophile forums.

I apologize for my remark. Welcome to the forum. (Olive branch?)

Having read your, "..I'm truly sorry MY posts were perceived as..", I went back to your original post to see if my original reaction was uncalledfor. It wasn't. Read it again yourself. It's plainly antagonistic. This forum has been notable for its general civility from its outset, but recently we've been visited by a couple of real jerks. Your post gave every indication that we had another one - the guy with all the answers and an overbearing attitude. You raised the ire of some real gentlemen - and deservedly. Stick around, and I think you'll find this a good and interesting group inclined to civil discourse, and willing to give a batter more than one strike. Welcome.

See...this is why I nominated you for President. You can't go Wrong with Wong. Sorry, but your campaign fund just took a $73,000 hit Friday. Hey. I'm not worried . We're still WAY up on the year, and I got cash on the sidelines for the dip. Drown Rove in the Cove. Clifton

Eye candy. The drool merchant arrives. Where are the babes waving their underwear? The dream lives on. We need Harry, and we're off to the races!

Keep it on the QT, but I may be able to get 2 grand outta Culpeper. I'm workin' it.

Jeff,that was excellent ! rotfl