Thanks for venting your spleen, dup. I suggest you settle back in your comfortable chair, put on your favorite music, and let it ease the pain in your soul.

Happy New Year.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

PS: I listened to the Continuum turntable when I was last visiting Mikey Fremer. It really is extraordinary. Better than the Rockport? Perhaps not, but Mikey thinks so and is getting massively into hock in order to buy the review sample.

Anyone who has a Simon Yorke AND a Continuum at home IS living the good life for sure. As for Mickey's wife's comments..."I'm not sure where that leaves me", this will be self-inflicted now. All that vinyl he recently picked up with his friend will put the Continuum to good use.

Quote:
Anyone who has a Simon Yorke AND a Continuum at home IS living the good life for sure.

Sadly, Mikey had to sell the Simon Yorke to help raise the cash for the Continuum. :-(

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

If he is doing that you know the Continuum must really be something. The question now is are there really phono stages to keep up? I'll stay tuned. This will probably put TdP back to work big time.
Regards, Jim T.

My old AR turntable always sounded nice. Wish i never sold it.

I laughed when i saw the new Stereophile cover too. To be fair, i remember telling my wife "If i ever buy something with tubes sticking out of it i've gone insane." Now all i've got is tube gear... thanks to Stereophile.

So, how do we help this ailing industry we all love?

Godzilla

Quote:
So now i have to sell my $70,000 rockford turntable and get this month's BEST

"The World's Best?" Don't forget the question mark. The question mark makes all the difference.

I was happy when I found out we'd be running a $90,000 turntable on the cover. First, the thing is very pretty. Not quite as hot as Scarlett Johansson, maybe, but striking nonetheless. And striking appearances are good for magazine covers. And, second, there are so many young folks interested in vinyl these days, it seems to me that they'd also be interested in hearing about the (potential) ultimate in vinyl playback. Even if they can't afford it.

It's fun.

Sorry, the above post is mine.

PS The next Stereophile test CD should be a Mickey compilation of all things Continuum. Hey, It could happen.

mikey- i've read your review of this turntable/combo and i continue to ponder how you can create CD-R's off of analog/ records that capture 'some of/much of' the 'magic' of vinyl? If this is possible, why not employ this process in the production of 'all' CD's? What does the above imply concerning CD's in general, ie: that they are able to 'capture vinyl magic at all' via recording?

len

Quote:
mikey- i've read your review of this turntable/combo and i continue to ponder how you can create CD-R's off of analog/ records that capture 'some of/much of' the 'magic' of vinyl? If this is possible, why not employ this process in the production of 'all' CD's? What does the above imply concerning CD's in general, ie: that they are able to 'capture vinyl magic at all' via recording?

len

This is an excellent question, Len. When Mikey gives a copy of his CD made through the vinyl transfer process to JA, it will be interesting to hear what JA's opinion is of the accuracy of the recording. When a vinyl step, or when adding a tube buffer, to the recording or playback chain is said to add quality to the musical experience, the question always arises whether this means that additional noise and distortion from additional steps is what is being preferred over accuracy.

I urge you to buy the K622 set off the Stereophile web site including the vinyl and CD and decide for your self within the contraints of your systems.

Here you have DSD, Redbook, and the best vinyl has to offer IMHO. On my simple Rega 3 set up I can tell you that if all I had was the vinyl of K622 I would be very happy. This K622 set should be standard SOP or any audiophile.

As for Mickey's CD-r, the quality will be what ever quality ADC he is using at the time. His analogue gear is not the weak link. To me if he is only capturing 90% of the Continuum it would still be pretty magical and very musical. Excellent DSD get you almost there.

If JA plays it through his Ayre C5-XE or his Levinson I'm sure it will be great. JA still liked the Rockport TT very, very much if you read his previous comments.

Jim- It maybe that I have misunderstood what Mikey 'implied' in his review, this is my current understanding: you play one, the first cd of the performance, one recorded from this turntable(from the review) and a second cd recorded directly from the performance, and what Mikey implies? is that the first will sound 'better', b/c it contains atleast some vinyl magic? My question is how does the cd/r do that? and what does that imply concerning cd 'magic'?
len

The actual CD from the original performance (master tape or digitial file) is one set of sonic perameters. The second would be the same performance from the master cut into vinyl, played on the Continuum and then recorded to CDr to make some sonic comparisons. The issues of what cd pressing plants do to the data has been discussed on another forum here with a link to an older Robert Harley Stereophile column that is well worth reading.

This also requires the comparison of how the mastering was done for the LP reissue and the CD. We have all heard poor sounding CDs for sure. If no care is taken in the mastering or disc cutting process (in terms of allowing proper full freq cutting which usually means fewer minutes per side)then all will suffer. It is why many of the reissues coming from the indie labels today from old master tapes and pressed on virgin vinyl, usually 180 gram or more, sound so great, ie Sundazed etc. Check the Acoustic Sounds catalog. You can also look at what Mr. Fremer is spinning to get a good read on the new reissues. You do not need a Comtinuum to hear how great these reissues in vinyl are. Listen to the vinyl of K622 and tell me this is not audiophile quality.

I play much vinyl only on a Rega P3, but have had the Thorens 850 and the MMF9 in my home and even in the 70's owned an Technics SP10 with a 3009 arm which I wish I still had. The sonic quality of vinyl pressings is all over the place, some thin, some bright, some with all the dynamic range compressed taking all the life out of the performance. This happens on CD as well if you look at the files on a computer sound editor. This degradation may have been due to trying to squeeze more minutes per side in. It may also be due to different manufacturers not following the true RIAA curve for proper playback by our phono stages.

I still own some Sheffield D2D vinyl, one from Nautilis of Randy Sharp, some Telarc Umbrella discs, all that are exceptional. The Bonnie Prince Billy disc I bought off a "Phile" recommendation is excellent 2004/5 vinyl issue.

Michael's point is that vinyl done right is spectacular and can surpass CD in many cases. Played back on the Continuum it can be breath-taking. It is this smoothness, a continuousness they talk about that does get transferred to CDr that those that hear it (Michael's copies) really GET.

When we hear DSD like K622 on a good SACD player it is about as good as it gets. On an Ayre C5-XE or the DCS stack it must really be something. That is why it is important to own the cd/sacd and LP of K622 for point of reference. I think you are hearing the best of all the formats. I would love to hear the vinyl K622 on the Continuum. Through the Manley SteelHead it must be something coming out of Michael's MF gear and his Wilson's. We should all be so lucky.

If I am mis-stating something I hope some one will clarify. I have an LP of David Benoit "This Side UP" that is just a spectacular pressing. The bass extension on this LP is very strong and when people come to the house and hear it playing they always ask: "What CD is that"? I just smile. Now you can't capture that with a $120 Technics TT or a $25 phono stage, but you can just by spending a few dollars in the Stereophile recommended components listing.

I think Michael even said that the MMF5 is so good for the money with a decent phono stage you think you are hearing it all, but you know you are not. Not with the Continuum around.

The importer for Continuum is here in Atlanta and I hope that one day they can have one on display for audition. Those of you going to CES should make the Continuum booth a MUST SEE AND HEAR. I would want to hear it before I laid down $90K for anything. Since Michael did you can bet it is a homerun for sure.

Possibly NOT TRUE. So you are saying that just because it is digital that the CD mastering engineer had to be more competent that a mastering engineer for vinyl? First you listen, then decide. Am I the only one who has heard bad CDs? Remember they both get to start with the original master tapes/digital files and then master to their tastes and experience.

You are also assuming that the cd pressing plant does perfect work. Roger Nichols would tend to disagree. Robert Harley's article is excellent.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/827/

Perfect sound forever doesn't exist yet. DSD is taking us closer.

Has anyone else listen to K622 in all the formats? What is your opinion? On the cd copy you have DSD and analogue tape transfer to CD for compairing the Masters.

Maybe JA can respond as to how much he agonized over which pressing plant does his CD duplication and why he chose them over some other houses, without naming names of course. We don't want to ruffle any feathers.

To DUP,

Since the DSD from the Tascam cannot be played back on any other DSD player than the Tascam you may want to buy a few spares so you do not lose the abiltiy to play them back years from now. It is also a $1200 machine and I have not heard any reviews that have called it the be all/end all of digital recording or playback.

I was hoping that JA was going to get one for review, but as far as I know it never showed up. I am a pretty open minded individual and do not have any axe to grind in the Digital vs Vinyl debate. I would take it on an individual disc by disc basis. There are probably many lps played on the Continuum or the Rockport that would NOT sound better than their digital counterpart.

I have also said previously that usually a $1K CD player would/could sound better than a $1K TT and phono stage. It takes more to get more out of vinyl. It would be fun to make a fight out of taking the same pile of money that the Ayre C5-XE buys and putting a vinyl playback rig together. What complete tt rig would you put together for the $6K price of an Ayre C5-XE?

What I find remarkable is that Michael found vinyl that he originally found wanting in playing it on his Simon Yorke that sounded very, very good on the Continuum. At $90K I agree it should.

I also do not buy the argument that $90K could/should be spent on other audio items. If your goal is to have the best sound and can afford it, I am happy that Michael can and did. If someone can own a Bentley, I doubt he cares if I think he should buy 2 or 3 BMW's or Mercedes.

This debate is getting interesting. Since vinyl is enjoying some resurgence, I know that I am not alone in trying to stick up for vinyl's "possible" ability to be very "high-end" sound.

I'm waiting for the SE version to come out before I order mine.

NT

OK, I think I have an angle on this...

We play a disc or three on the Continuum for Bob Carver and he calculates the "transfer factor" of the turntable. Then we put this playback algorhythm into a far less expensive CD player's chip and, voila, a Continuum CD player for practically free!

A smart audio entrepreneur could pre-program the transfer factors for several high end turntables and we could all compare different CD's on different analog tables!

Wait a minute! Why don't they just mix the mayonnaise with the tuna in the can... HOLD THE PHONE! Why don't they just FEED the tuna fish mayonnaise!
tune...Call Starkist"

Hello mikey, just wondering "from your memory" how the continuum compares to the prescenium gold turntable
cheers
hornman

Sorry, forgot to log in.

Jim- point taken! does the above imply then that a really fine CD/Rer can capture the 'vinyl' sound and that the limitations of cd are mostly in the processing? It has been my experience that cd's like those from waterlilly, almost always sound 'very good' on my limited equipment.

thanks for replies---len

Len,

I think the mistake we all make in terms of digital (perfect sound forever) is that we assume all involved are audiophiles and "know" what great sound is and want to capture it all. When you listen to these mastering engineers and find out how many cooks are into the soup it become scarry. How much they (have to) relent to producers and artists due to financial restraints (he who pays decides) to keep working, one must be a team player regardless of whether you really prefer the outcome. And then we hear that before giving final approval they take the mix out to someones car for the final test. Really? How many really great car mastering systems are there? Probably zero. That explains the general sorry quality of pop/rock recordings today.

I guarantee you that if JA made a cdr with his gear off the Continuum it would be to die for. If Mickey could borrow the DCS Master Clock and input it into his Alesis Masterlink it would be a big improvement as the Alesis reviewer stated.

I know that in turntables the platter stability and quietness in terms of rumble is critical. The 85lb Continuum platter must have the lowest rumble figure ever, it may even be less than the cutting lathe.

I told you this was getting interesting. I am going back to school big time. I can wait for Mickey to get his Alesis back up and running.

Regards.

Quote:
Monty will wait forever: the guys building the Caliburn are not nearly as cynical as Monty. They don't work that way....buyers will never have to upgrade to an "SE" edition.

Monty could liquidate his entire assets and not be able to come up with enough money to bribe anyone into turning one of those tables on so he could hear it. However, I can scrape up enough green for one of the discs when you get around to cutting them. Besides, I have to sneak in new equipment while my wife is out. There is absolutely zero chance of me sneaking one of those by her wandering eyes.

I could turn to a life of crime, but I still have anxiety attacks whenever the movie "Deliverence" comes on.

Fair enough Mikey , but biases aside ,how would you compare the walker proscenium turntables sound at the shows to the continuum ?
cheers
hornman

For the value minded...

I was watching a wine auction over this past weekend. Here's some results that may cause a rush on Continuum tables!

From the auction summary:

"More than 25 lots hammered down for $50,000 or more (not including premiums), including five lots for over $100,000 all-in. Some of the highlights include:

6 magnums 1971 Romanee Conti Domaine de la Romanee Conti $136,275.00

12 bottles 1962 Romanee Conti Domaine de la Romanee Conti $118,500.00

12 bottles 1961 Chateau Latour a Pomerol Pomerol $118,500.00

6 magnums 1978 Romanee Conti Domaine de la Romanee Conti $112,575.00

12 bottles 1971 Romanee Conti Domaine de la Romanee Conti $106,650.00

6 magnums 1961 Chateau Latour a Pomerol Pomerol $106,650.00

6 magnums 1947 Chateau Cheval Blanc St. Emilion $94,800.00

12 bottles 1962 La Tache Domaine de la Romanee Conti $88,875.00

12 bottles 1978 Romanee Conti Domaine de la Romanee Conti $88,875.00

6 magnums 1945 Chateau Mouton Rothschild Pauillac $82,950.00

12 bottles 1961 Chateau Lafleur Pomerol $77,025.00

12 bottles 1961 Chateau Petrus Pomerol $77,025.00

12 bottles 1962 Musigny Vieilles Vignes, Comte de Vogue $73,470.00

12 bottles 1962 Chambertin A. Rousseau $71,100.00

12 bottles 1947 Chateau Petrus Pomerol $71,100.00

12 bottles 1961 Chateau Petrus Pomerol $71,100.00

6 magnums 1961 Chateau Petrus Pomerol $71,100.00

2 magnums 1962 Romanee Conti Domaine de la Romanee Conti $65,175.00

1 Methuselah 1971 Romanee Conti Domaine de la Romanee Conti $65,175.00

12 bottles 1945 Chateau Mouton Rothschild Pauillac $65,175.00

12 bottles 1947 Chateau Lafleur Pomerol $65,175.00

6 bottles 1923 La Tache Liger-Belair $59,250.00

3 magnums 1962 La Tache Domaine de la Romanee Conti $59,250.00

1 magnum 1929 Romanee Conti Domaine de la Romanee Conti $59,250.00

1 Methuselah 1985 Romanee Conti Domaine de la Romanee Conti $59,250.00"

________________________________
________________________________

Makes that new Contiuum table seem like a viable alternative!

Plus, after you've "opened and enjoyed" the table, you get to keep enjoying it!

I would rather have that turntable than any of those wines!

And, sadly, the buyers aren't generally aware that God makes wine, and he intends for us to drink it - not stash it away.

Just sitting here pondering that table some more.

While the price is out of my plane of existence, I still like to play the "what if..." game.

So, at what price would I be able to say "Yes" to buying that table?

If someone said, 5K and it's yours, I'd find a way.

15K, I couldn't.

So, for me, if I could grab it for 11,000 dollars, I'd find a way to add it to my life and not have to get a divorce. It would definitely have to be a payment plan, but that's how high I'd go. That's factoring in my life, not trying to say the table has that absolute worth.

Same with the Wavacs. I'd max at about 6K for them, just because I think I couldn't afford the tube upkeep!

As far as a speaker system, my grail would be those top end mbl's, the 101E's. I think they retail at just under 47K, but if I had a chance, I'd grab them for 13K.

Buying any one of those would be a near death fiscal experience, and these numbers would not apply if all those products came available at the same time. I'm just daydreaming.

My daydreams tend to top out for the glory-hallelujah equipment just north of 10K, even though I've never even remotely approached that amount with any "actual reality" purchase!

That's probably why I drive a 1999 POS Dodge, too.

Anyway, I'd go for the Continuum at 11K (and probably find a way to get it done at 13K) to get that table into my own world.

Just to give a sense of scale or proportion here: When I was young, I'd play poker with my buddies and sometimes the topic of girls would come up. I had this one friend who would always start naming some famously beautiful starlets or such and ask, "How much would you pay to do the deed with her?" His queries were always given due consideration, and I topped out at about 300 bucks, even for Linda Ronstadt in her Cub Scout shorts and roller skates days. Same amount for Stevie Nicks in her prime. After all, that would have been the equivalent of nearly 90 LP

I wouldn't go anywhere near even 10k for the table, but I have a 4yr old and have a hard enough time justifying what I do spend on gear. I'll bet I have spent that much on Barney and Elmo stuff, though.

I wonder what the soundtrack to Elmo's World sounds like on that rig?

How high would I go? Tough question. Just because I've spent years pursuing the best sound for the dollar, doesn't mean I can't be seduced by some out of this world toy. The safeguard, for me, is that there's no way I could borrow a Continuum for an in-home listening test. Resisting how I imagine it could sound, I can do. The more expensive upgrades I've made over time have been because I couldn't resist how the equipment actually did sound. In a sense, I'm protected from bankruptsy by the decline in nearby high-end shops. I suppose I should be thankful.

Too funny....

ROTFLMAO!!!

Dear Dup,
Can't say I share you disdain for the Continuum 'table or for Stereophile, but I owe you BIG TIME! My gratitude is all I can afford, though. The AVA phase inverter you mentioned in your post is exactly what I needed.

The following is not directed at you, but to poor souls getting poor integration between sub and main speakers. Remember that vented speakers have inverted phase in the bottom of their usable response.

Because my subwoofer (the LFX from sadly extinct Entec) doesn't have a phase inversion switch, I have had to run my ProAc Super Tabs with inverted phase to get proper integration. When I inverted the phase on the ProAcs, the sound went from a lumpy, muddy mess with a big hole in the transition region, to a level of integration just short of the best full-range speakers.

The AVA phase inverter will fix a long standing problem and allow me to hear (most of) the full range in correct polarity for the first time.

Mucho Oligato DUP,
Buelligan

Dear Michael (I can't bring myself to call you Mikey, unless invited),

You sure seem to be moving up the food chain (MAXX2s, Continuum rig) as far as you system is concerned. You deserve all that and MORE.

Specifically:

1. The Boulder 2008. You know you want it. Just do it! Your wife's patience is clearly as limitless as your line of credit and IMHO you have the position, power and need for it above any other reviewer I can think of.

2. The DCS 905 A/D converter. With all respect to the the Alesis Masterlink, your records, on the Continuum rig, captured in the 905s highest resolution, then downconverted with the best available software (sorry, no suggestions there but think XRCD) and burned to CD-R would be... Oh God, I'm having palpitations! Seriously, you could borrow JA's and give it a spin. I bet it would be worth the inevitable hassle involved.

How indescribably wonderful would that be? I would love to hear the results and would gladly pay to do so. Unfortunately, the RIAA would sue the crap out of you, negating the whole enterprise. Still I would love to see you with these last two audio goodies. Many of us do live vicariously through you and other reviewers, you know.

Best Regards,

Buelligan

And the best part is Mikey gets to write the Continuum off on his taxes as a business expense. In fact, rather than depreciate it, he might be able to accelerate it and write the whole thing off in one swoop.

I wonder how exactly you describe the item on your taxes?

Itemized deductions: 1 Record Player...........$90,000

Yeah, that won't draw any attention. lol

I just can't seem to bring myself to the level of righteous indignation that some audiophiles are so easily able to muster over pricey gear.

It's all toys, it's all personal as to value.

For every one of us who can get all red faced about the Contiunuum, there are even more 'civilians' who think the same about us and our passion for phase inversion!

Every hobby has an ultra high end segment, resenting that fact is the real time waster.

Vinyl haters, CD haters, calling SACD the real deal...see you in ten years when you're making definitive statements about the next format. It can start to sound like Muslims calling Methodists crazy for thinking differently. There is no such thing as the definitive sound in the world of audiophilia.

I agree and anyone who has heard discs made off the Caliburn knows this isn't black magic or pixie dust, the magical sound is real. The dead silent backgrounds, stability of speed are the key incredients (to me) of what makes this Caliburn worth owning if vinyl means something to you and you can ante up the green. I can tell you that for me if the rest of my gear was up to the challenge I would rather have a Caliburn that a $90K automobile. I would buy the Caliburn without the stand and upgrade the rest of my gear to try and catch up. That would still be pretty magical!!!!

Quote:
There is no such thing as the definitive sound in the world of audiophilia.

Except Audioquest Type 4 speaker cable.

With every car I ever bought I had to argue with the car company to get things repaired under warranty...until I bought my first (of 4) Saturn(s). I don't care if you stay in business for ever, if you build crap and then won't fix it, what good is it. I remember in the '70s when GM decided to put Chevy engines in Oldmobiles and not tell any one. Hey, a 350 is a 350, right? Not to some one expecting a rockett 88 engine it wasn't. I now with Ford tanking Bill Ford wants us to believe that "innovation" will lead Ford into the future? Really. If innovation shows up it will most likely be in a Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, or BWM most likely. Then what GM gives us is the Hummer! Go figure. Depreciation alone is reason enough to run the wheels off your current ride. It is just like a boat... a hole in the ocean to throw money in. As always...He who pays, decides.

I would much rather own an SME 30 than any new car. But, that is just me. Anyone who can afford a Rolls or a Vette, I am happy for you. Music means more to me than some ride. How about a DCS P8i?

I wonder how much an Audi TT would cost if they had to hand make each one and only 50 people per year might buy one.

Economy of scale comes into play.

If 100,000 people were going to buy this table, I bet the price would zing right down!

Also, buying the Continuum is outside the realm of "which turntable is fastest around the Nurburgring" or of being able to set up a factory with German government subsidies to make interchangebale engine parts for a million turntables...hence the expense.

I have no problem with hand crafted objects. Check in with Piaget or Bugatti and then tell me how a Timex will smoke the Piaget or how a Hayabusa will crush a Bugatti in a race.

It's not that the Piaget or Bugatti shouldn't be allowed to exist, or that it's crazy to own them, they serve a purpose for their owners (whatever that may be... ...well, actually, I do know...it all boils down to having an easier time getting laid, but I digress... ...)

I'm sure an 8 megapixel photo smokes a Monet when it comes to accurately conveying the detail of a landscape, too.

We are in the realm of art appreciation as much as we are about format wars here. I think of the Continuum as an object of audio art. No problem.

At this level of price, two things are required: One, ya gotta have the green and, two, ya gotta "get it."

Not getting it is fine, but saying that no one else should be allowed to get it is just an example of audio fundamentalism: "Believe my way or be cast out."

Nope, DUP, can't do it.

If someone wants to own that table, great! If they let me come over to hear it, even better! Would you refuse such an invite and insist they only listen to SACD?

Liking SACD is fine and all, but what does it do for a person who owns 3,000 LP's and wants to continue to enjoy them?

The only answer that seems like it would please you is to force us to tell the LP owner to go to hell and insist he buy this year's "perfect sound forever" format.

I bet a Continuum owner will still be enjoying his table in a dozen years, while you're telling him he's crazy for not buying a the latest HHDCDVDR player, 'cause it smokes LP's and SACD's.

SACD, CD, LP, it's all toys and pleasure. You can't put your personal price limit on other's fun.

Yeah, Buddha. If it gets more (relatively) undistorted sound out of the boxes, with greater transparency, than another, cheaper turntable, SOMEBODY will pony up the cash and take it home...and enjoy hell out of it, no matter what the cost. And that's what MF's review boils down to: more sound, less noise, more drama, an inch closer to "live." It's what we're all after. How much is "too much" is a personal values choice. Period. Sooner or later, some of the technology behind this TT will trickle down and make real improvements in a turntable we can all afford. That's the way it always happens. Cheers and happy tunes, Clifton.

Quote:
My old AR turntable always sounded nice. Wish i never sold it.

I laughed when i saw the new Stereophile cover too. To be fair, i remember telling my wife "If i ever buy something with tubes sticking out of it i've gone insane." Now all i've got is tube gear... thanks to Stereophile.

So, how do we help this ailing industry we all love?

Godzilla

Thanks to stereophile? Flea markets are full of equipment with tubes. Please tell me that is where you got your equipment?